I've got friends in Bebo places
Danah is surely correct to say that, for most people, status in some online niche space will never be as important as validation from the people in your neighborhood--the people that you meet each day. But I think her focus on teens, whose social milieu is to a great extent given by their parents' choices, may obscure one of the phenomena Clay highlights in his book: The collapse of the '90s meatspace/cyberspace dichotomy.
As I noted previously, Tim and I are friends in the "real world," but we met physically only after years of corresponding electronically via Adult Friend Finder a now-defunct chat forum we both frequented long ago. As I type this, I'm sitting at a café with a friend who (like many people with whom I socialize) I originally got to know because we were both blogger-journalists. Later tonight, I'm going to play poker with a some friends from my college debate circuit, who I'd have lost touch with years ago if not for e-mail and spaces like the league's Facebook group. Some of the other players are members of a double-secret DC mailing list for liberal writers and activists, named after the pub where they often congregate. I may be geekier than the modal American, but social patterns of this sort are increasingly common.
Granted, your social life is much more likely to look like this if you live in a densely populated city and happen to write stuff online for a living. But Clay also mentions the emergence of mobile, geographically sensitive social applications like Dodgeball, which brings to the surface hidden social ties between people who happen to be in close proximity at a given time, facilitating face-to-face meeting. In a world of ubiquitous computing, where we can selectively, opportunistically, and automatically reveal tendrils of affinity or shared social bonds to the strangers around us, the line between online and offline group membership becomes ever thinner.
... for most people, status in some online niche space will never be as important as validation from the people in your neighborhood--the people that you meet each day.
I don't meet the people in my neighborhood each day - not even close.
June 17, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a smart blog. I mean it. You have so much knowledge about this issue, and so much passion. You also know how to make people rally behind it, obviously from the responses. Youve got a design here thats not too flashy, but makes a statement as big as what youre saying. Great job,children health indeed.
January 17, 2011 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do live in a dense urban environment and I meet my neighbors all the time, and people at my gym, and at work, of course and all of that is important.
But a place like TPM is also pretty important to me. I know there are people who both agree and disagree with me, but they're usually pretty validating no matter what they're saying and that is important to me.
If everyone here suddenly started posting "destor23 is a hack," I'd certainly care. Whether or not I'd care more about that than if people did the same to me in the physical world is almost immaterial. If it happened here, I'd care.
June 17, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, just so you know I care, I think you're a hack a good percentage of the time, for what it's worth.
I think you're often sloppy with facts and fall short in reasoning things through, particularly if you've already arrived at a conclusion which you think will be well received by some of your online pals. Your desire to be agreed with seems stronger than your desire to get it right.
You seem to suffer somewhat from a lite version of MSM syndrome, the mediocrity, minus the wealth or fame.
For example, the other day your ruminations on Obama's call to civil service was a straw man utterly devoid of correct facts or foreknowledge on the subject. You got the details, terms, monetary amounts, and basically the entire premise wrong, while criticizing it. You were also a Hillary supporter I believe?
Were it a MSM hack who had made your posts, certainly you would be railing against it for the inaccuracy and mischaracterization, particularly if they came from someone formerly opposed to the candidate being criticized. Of course, you're not. You're (correct me if I'm mistaken) an aspiring hipster blogger, and PT writer, so it's OK. Right?
To which I say: isn't it swell how hip and smart technology automagically makes us? How the new is so totally different from the old?
=D
June 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're cute, Koz. But you've yet to actually catch me making a factual mistake, you just like to accuse me of making them. Have a good night, dear.
June 17, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
lol. Well, that's one right there, and it sounds rather self delusional you'd even say that. We all make factual mistakes sometimes. (duh!)
Actually, in the thread I was just mentioning, you first claimed Obama's plan called for a year of FT service to repay a $4k student loan, which is of course factually incorrect, as I and others pointed out.
But whatever. Don't go changing.
June 17, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, that isn't what I said. I said the total grant was too low to justify a year of service work, which it is. But, don't go reading.
June 18, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
lol. Oi vey. Destor, you're so clueless you don't have any idea...
You claimed specifically that "$4K" was too little for a year of F/T service because that's far less than "minimum wage."
When you were corrected by a few others, you pulled a new number out of the air: $4K/year for 4 years, or $16K. Again, supposedly in exchange for a year of F/T service.
Both of your comments are straw men and totally misunderstand Obama's proposal. Again, Destor frequently fails to inform himself before commenting and makes such nonsensical and misinformed posts.
As others explained, it doesn't work as Destor suggests, or even close.
1) It's PAID community service. Living wages, nothing glamorous, but the person will certainly be paid throughout the service.
2) In addition to wages, following an agreed schedule, college loans would be forgiven. Again, that's in *addition* to wages.
3) It's like the Peace Corps, or similar programs. A civilian program analogous to the military GI bill. A difference that under the GI bill, a person first works, for pay, in the military, and then later has college and cost of living paid for. Or in officer training, a person first attends a military college. In the civilian version, one first receives a loan for college and an education, then applies those skills towards paid community work, and additionally has the loan forgiven.
June 18, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Internet technology is being treated as a far larger novelty than it actually is. Yes, we all know the internet is an incredible tool for communication and transmission of ideas. We all know it's revolutionized all that. OK. Fine.
But, having said that, there's a real posuer and borderline obsessive compulsive quality to technology for it's own sake. Some have made connectedness a goal unto itself, many having conflated the identity of a successful tech entrepreneur or such, with gadget fetishism. Many young people have bought into this as an identity and fashion statement, as though everything transmitted over an IM is somehow smarter, cooler, and all around better.
We've all seen the types continually sporting the bluetooth headset like some plastic barnacle, continually checking IMs to say: nothing.
It's monkey see, monkey do.
Others have an equally irrational "low tech" backlash against technology.
It's a bit like the transistor radio craze in the 60's, from what I've read about it. Or before that, shortwave and CB radio. There were plenty of zines on those subcultures as well. But does anyone now seriously suggest there was something transcendently cool about having had a transistor radio?
For too many, sitting in a Starbucks on a laptop is a fashion statement and goal unto itself. I don't really see it as conducive to work actually, at least not for me. Oh, and Starbucks sucks. But anywhoo...
Ultimately when assessing online communities after the novelty wears off, we're going to delineate, albeit very subjectively, between art, entertainment, hobbies, and circle jerks.
The term "geek" may very well revert back to prior meaning.
June 17, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
And of all the things you mentioned...
The Circle Jerks got to be the name of a great band.
June 17, 2008 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep, one of the all time great crappy punk bands.
June 17, 2008 8:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but as good as The Butthole Surfers? Tough call.
June 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
hmmm... A friend sometimes did sound engineering at The Farm in San Francisco. As I recall, somewhere near the top of the heap was DK and black flag, then perhaps second tier were butthole surfers, MDC, circle jerks, etc. Bands with logos easier to scratch into desks and tag on walls naturally being more popular.
The buttholes had a long name, but easy to render iconography compensating for it.
Then I graduated from middle school and outgrew punk. I had discovered there were music limits to "fuck you." ;) I think by highschool we were into jazz, ska, swing, weird german and Japanese industrial bands, and generally the whole retro catalog. In live music there were all the grunge bands, techno clubs, early emo bands, raves, the early turntable scene, hiphop, etc. There was even the beginning of popularization of so called "world music" such as the Paul Simon stuff and more independent labels. By mid 90s the whole bollywood and asian underground scene was ramping up. Burning man also began about that time.
It's amazing how many genres exploded into popularity during the late 80's and early 90's.
June 17, 2008 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since the 70's I have made my way through psychedelic, jazz-rock, hard rock, heavy metal (in may sub forms), blues, punk, grunge, folk, stoner rock and then back through it all again. The late 80's and early 90's was a gateway era in music. Some interesting stuff happened during that period. A resurgence in punk, the rise and fall of grunge and the genesis of stoner rock. It wasn't as explosive in terms of creativity as the late 60's and early 70's ('67-'73) but it was very close. I still enjoy listening to the Surfers, Suicidal Tendencies, The Misfits, Circle Jerks, Cracker, Dinosaur, Jr. and Dead Kennedys when the mood strikes me. Gibby Haynes got his sh*t back together and the Surfers are finally back together and are touring again. That is supposedly one of the signs that the world will be ending soon isn't it? :-P
June 17, 2008 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't worry, Libertine, Koz doesn't get it. He thinks we're talking Timberlake here.
And the irony is that Timberlake has talent (check out the new Duran Duran album for proof).
June 17, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
lol. Project much? What are you even babbling about? And now you're now kissing up to Libertine too?
Exactly my point about you destor.
As I said: mediocre, sloppy, uninformed, and am ingratiating need to suck up too. All that is wrong with the MSM, minus the wealth and fame.
June 17, 2008 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can't say that I listen to Timberlake much destor. Not that he don't have talent, just not my musical cup 'o tea. Right now I am diggin' Monster Magnet, Kyuss, Nebula and Fu Manchu. Next week it might be The Doors, Zep, Floyd, MC5, Steely Dan and Chicago, lol. I change my musical tastes like I change my clothes. ;-)
LOL...Duran Duran? There's a blast from the past.
June 17, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh right, how could I forget the suicidals. From them to Misfits and Dinosaur Jr is a pretty big step though.
It's hard to compare the late 60s-70s to 80's-90s. You have more bedrock genres created during the former period, globally, but during the late 80's to 90's there are more subgenres and crossovers. Also independent labels and global fan bases seemed to expand greatly during the late 80s.
June 17, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
btw, I was recently talking to some kids in thier early 20s psyched to be seeing MDC. heheh.
Kind of blew my mind just a bit. In the day, there's no way we would have gone to see bands where everybody was in their 40s, playing songs 20+ years old, talking about how angsty and rebellious they were. lol. (well except Dinosaur Jr that is, and they weren't so angry anymore.) A lot of MDC's fan base were, to be truthful, privileged white kids, particularly skate punks, carefully managing allowances from parents to buy records. There was already too much hypocrisy going on to actually see a band as old as their parents. lol.
Anyways, they'll be at Bottom of the Hill this Saturday. Maybe I'll go see them fer old'timey sakes. ;)
June 17, 2008 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might be surprised what the kids are into today Koz. I am over at youtube a bit and one guy in his late teens/early 20's is totally into posting videos from Blind Faith, Hawkwind and Traffic. As I like to say good music never goes out of style.
June 17, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I can see that somewhat. Hawkwind I was never into, but they have a certain timeless appeal.
The Ramones I always thought were a bit pathetic to still play to rebellious teenagers in your 40s. Groups like the Damned had long careers, but were musically way ahead of most 80's hardcore punk. The Rolling Stones were never exclusively about youth angst the way punk was, so it makes sense they still gig. Admittedly subjective...
Hardcore, anybody can do it. It's not exactly technically challenging or requiring deep thoughts. So why not get someone of your own age at least?
These young whipper snappers, they don't even mosh properly now, which was half the point. And really, where's the fun without skinheads to stir up shit? Most of these old bands might shatter a hip if they stage ddived. I hear they're sponsored by Depends and Levitra now. hehe.
I don't know, it just seems there's something terribly lacking about young kids still listening to the "name brand" punk bands from 20-30 years ago. It seems incredibly un-punk, punk. Reminds me of the creepiest aspects of swing kids once it was popularized, the endless posing and comparing wide ties and wingtips. Now it's ammo belts, converse, and home made black flag tshirts stitched with safety pins, made from an "instructables" web site.
hehe. I guess it's kinda cool. lol. but still, I'm dubious about it all.
June 17, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shit...I know I am too old to do the Toxic Waltz.
As far as the old punk bands most of them are gone. 3/4 of the Ramones are dead. The Sex Pistols flamed out a long time ago, even before Sid self destructed, killed Nancy and then OD'd. The original punk band MC5 from the early 70's and the Detroit scene crashed and burned...most of them are gone. And The Clash is hanging on by a thread...and how much can they still be the same now that Joe Strummer has died. Lou Reed? The New York Dolls? Some of the 80's punk bands are still kicking. The Pixies are back together on and off. We've already mentioned the Surfers. ST is still going strong. Old (or at least middle-aged) punk rockers? I agree I don't know if it really works. Punk rock was so much about the attitude which came from youthful anger. But then again as Ian Anderson from Tull sings...you are never too old to rock and roll if you are too young to die.
June 17, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
But the "Prince of the Punks" is still alive and kicking...Iggy Pop!!! Iggy and the Stooges RULE!!! LMAO!!!
June 17, 2008 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need to form a PTA exploratory committee to ascertain why America's youth are failing to express angst in their own manner of drunken violently uncreative destruction and crappy three chord bands.
We can't rely on the old standards like the Surfers, MDC, Flipper, etc forever. Where are today's crappy punk bands? Once the lack of musical talent is lost, it make take generations to reacquire such a profound lack of musical skills.
For decades the world's disaffected youth has turned primarily to English speaking cultural outlets. When the world said "fuck you!" they said it in English.
At this rate, soon we'll be importing crappy punk made in China by privileged angst ridden youth in Beijing and Nanjing. Can you even write Chinese characters backwards? How not punk rock is that? Yet, soon enough the world may say: cào nǐ zǔzōng shíbā dài!!
June 18, 2008 3:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
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June 17, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
what is truly sad is that this mindless drivel is being posted in a forum that paints itself as being "progressive".
so many of you just don't get it. the nutroots lost the 2004 election, not because they were "progressive" or "grassroots", but because they were anything but. disinterested and condescending elites. you can't relate to the majority of the people, irregardless of whether they are black, brown or white, and it's no secret that you don't care to.
educate yourselves a little. log off your "social networks", walk away from your computer and get out there in the real world. find out what it's like for the working poor and struggling middle class americans. try locating that shriveled up thing that's supposed to be your heart and try pumping some life into it. perhaps then you'll be able to think beyond that narrow little space you've constructed for yourselves.
to see several threads here devoted to this sort of rot is insulting, and goes a long way in explaining why membership is dramatically reduced. from where i sit, this place is no different than a right wing forum.
June 17, 2008 9:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Effete.
June 17, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
He should have called it - Elites on steroidial onanism.
Now we have more spaces to wield status, meatworld and cyberworld. I know there may be hardwiring involved, but replicating the same shit everywhere? Whats next? Will the lines of kewl be hardened and as impermeable as they are in meatspace? That's what I see. The perpetual high school, and it invaded and established itself before this thing had any serious length of opportunity to be a different place.
June 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but Iggy does actually still rock. Search and Destroy still sounds good.
Look at this, MDC in 2002. Authentic like rides at Disney Land. And they're only 6 years older now. Hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExS9-bJ_67E&feature=related
June 18, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
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March 1, 2011 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
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