« A Housing Bill that Doesn't Whack Low-Income Renters | Home | The Ones that Got Away »

Rick Horowitz and Hillary Clinton's "My Way" & Paul Krugman Plays the Tool

My Brandeis buddy, Rick Horowitz, who has a lovely voice that I did not know about, sings Frank Sinatra in tribute to the late Clinton Presidential campaign.

I admire Rick. He's not mean-spirited like me. He's funny.

But I do look forward to June 3. The only serious question left is this. Should Obama announce a VP early to end the pressure to take Clinton (since Friday an absolute impossibility). Or does he just ignore the pressure and take his time?

I assume he'll take his time. But ending the now thoroughly unrealistic talk of a Obama-Clinton ticket must have its appeal.

We need someone really formidable, someone who can match the awesome credentials of Bobby Jindal.

Read PAUL KRUGMAN going down with the mother ship. I've loved many politicians in my day but I sure wouldn't commit career suicide for any of them. Krugman has. Andrew Sullivan takes Krug down here.


Comments (123)

Krugman is done. He became a total tool. What a loss.

avatar

Rosenberg, what happened to your yesterday's post about Hillary and RFK to which I and some others responded? Why has it been removed as well as the comments?

If you are allowed to post-facto edit and censor, it should be so stated such as "I reserve the right to extend and revise my remarks" like a Senator.

I was wondering that myself. I was hoping he thought better of it, but seeing this here today has shattered that illusion.

Give Krugman hell, MJ! Today's column was by far one of the biggest hack job's he's ever written. "Career suicide." Wow. It's come to this - Clinton over Party over Career for Paul Krugman, the conscience of many a liberal. Sad.

Further Krugman discussion here on a reader's post:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/krugman-the-struggle-for-the-n.php

avatar

re : Krugman
we'll stop 'demonizing' her when she puts away the red pantsuit and pitchfork (what she's shovelling keeps getting blown back in her face anyway).

avatar

Good imagery...

Mirror Check, MJ.

Krugman is saying unite or die.

Historically, when there have been close Dem nomination fights, we lose. Why? Because we divide our party and alienate people that would normally vote with us.

Respectfully, you are the worst offender here. Your calls for division are unseemly, and only help McCain.

The sentence I have the most trouble with in Krugman's op ed is

But mainly it’s up to Mr. Obama to deliver the unity he has always promised — starting with his own party.

Do you believe it is up to Obama to unify the party and if so how do you suggest that he overcome the animus of her supporters? From my point of view, Hillary has whipped them into such a state with her sexisma and victimhood that I don't even see how even she could appease them at this point much less Obama.

avatar

MJ, all Obama supporters should advocate and heed Mr. Krugman's advice. Keep on, keeping on this "gang rape" of Sen. Clinton's reputation by YOU and others will have its desired effect. Obama will be Mike Dukakis before you can say "hope".

Gang Rape? You Clintonistas aren't just sick you are sociopaths.

avatar

All about that "man in the mirror". This is exactly what it is..."gang rape" of her person. Take a look at the right side of your page now or page through MJ and Jonathan have written over the past two months and there you go. But, hey, keep on....like I said Obama will turn into Mike Dukakis relatively soon.

"Gang rape": Gets my vote as the most overblown analogy on a blog yet today.

not overblown at all. The one thing that is overblown is you Obamanoids ability to see straight. But then again you might just be a pack of McCain operatives playing at being Obamanoids. It is hard to tell. If you are a true Obamanoid you are stupid and an unwitting tool of the Republicans, if you are an agent for McCain, I have to hand it to you, you are very clever. Evil, but clever. Nobody should underestimate the deviousness of the Republican attack machine and all its machinations of which I think MJ is a part of.

When the Clintons and their supporters mock, deride, misrepresent and attack Obama, we hear a lot about how politics is a contact sport, how you need to put the pads on, you need three balls to play it, etc. When Obama supporters return the favor against Clinton, we hear how she is being "gang raped" and doesn't get any R.E.S.P.E.C.T. For months, the Clintonites have been calling for and exploiting a ridiculous double-standard in this way.

Obama must have the patience of Job to put up with this crap in the way he has without complaining.

avatar

There is no gang rape of Clinton and, as a woman, I strongly object to the metaphor. Whatever damage has been done to Clinton has been self-inflicted. It's difficult to keep track of her lies but, off the top of my head, there's the false claim that her daughter was at ground zero when the planes hit the towers; the false claim that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary; the false claim that, after a corkscrew landing to escape sniper fire in Bosnia, she made a quick getaway; the false claim that primaries used to last much longer; and that doesn't count all the BS we could dig up from her WH years.

But none of that was as damaging to her reputation as the smears against a fellow Democrat: the leaking to Drudge, without contextual explanation, of a photo of Obama in Somali garb by her campaign; the "shame on you, Obama" hysteria about her support of NAFTA (which video of her shows her supporting); her "as far as I know" answer to whether Obama is Muslim; her claim that only she and the Republican nominee, John McCain, are ready to be commander-in-chief; her use of a photo of Osama bin Laden in a commercial to instill fear in voters about electing Obama; her claim that Obama can't get hardworking white people to vote for him; and the latest, worst, Hillary tactic: recalling the RFK assassination as a reason for her to stay in the race and then, when called on it, blaming Obama for making a big deal of it (as if nobody would have noticed had Obama's campaign not mentioned it).

Have I left anything out? Of course, I have because it's almost impossible to keep track of the lies, smears, gaffes, and sheer insanity of the Clinton campaign. Oh, and before you assume that I started out disliking Clinton, you should know that I used to like and admire her. That was before she voted with Bush for an unnecessary war out of political expediency, not even bothering to read the intelligence report before doing so. And then, there was Kyl-Lieberman, and in-between, her refusal to admit that a vote for war was a vote for war and...

Damn, nobody's raped Clinton. Clinton has helped the Bushies do terrible damage to this country. And, by stoking the resentment of her supporters, by telling lies about where she stands in the nominating contest, she makes it more likely that the destruction will continue, via a divided Democratic party where some of her Kool Aid drinkers go for McCain.

avatar

It's amazing that Krugman thinks Obama is the one who should be making the gestures for "unity" at this point.

Actually, he just asked Obama's supporters to quite pouring salt in Clinton supporters wounds.

That seems to me to be a reasonable request, as it is what Obama hisself has been advocating for some months.

Instead of lambasting Krugman for agreeing with Obama, perhaps you should consider that those that deter, discourage, or ridicule unity are the real enemies of Progressive values at this point.

You might want to ask why anyone would want to encourage the division of the Democrats at this time, and who benefits most from that.

Actually, he just asked Obama's supporters to quite pouring salt in Clinton supporters wounds.

It seems to me that Obama and most of his supporters keep trying to do this, and have made several overtures in recent weeks, but in return are always met with more attacks and aggressive forays from the Clinton camp. The Clintonites want to reserve the right to fight all for themselves, and when Obama supporters are forced to fight back against unending Clinton intransigence, the Clintonites cry about how they get no respect, and how the salt hurts their "wounds."

By my count, Hillary Clinton's acidic campaign has spent at least two months now dividing the party along various cultural, gender, age and ethnic lines, while hoping for some electoral miracle to fall out of the sky, when she could have decided to help unite the party immediately following the twelve consecutive losses that spelled the end of her chances for all practical purposes. People like the Clintons, Krugman, Ferraro, Begala, Carville and Lanny Davis should feel deeply ashamed for what they have done. Not only are they hurting the Democratic Party, but they are destroying their own reputations in the process.

This idea that the Clintons have some kind of sacred democratic right to stay in the campaign and continue to throw Hail Mary passes, or pray for magical superdelegate conversions or improbable crunch time rules changes, as they drive their supporters into ever deeper psychic pits of paranoia, insulted entitlement, victimization and hysterical rage, is frankly ludicrous. The denouement of the Clinton campaign is one of the most reprehensible, destructive and selfish spectacles we have ever seen played out on the national stage. If they and their team don't see the light very quickly, Bill and Hillary Clinton are going to go down in history as the second incarnation of George and Cornelia Wallace: the architects of a regional and generation reactionary backlash movement built on generational, racial and gender resentment and spite.

Do the Clintons represent what happens when Generation Brat - all those ridiculously spoiled, self-centered, center-of-attention boomers - reach the age when they begin to have to share the spotlight with the rising generation behind them? De we get utter psychic meltdown, loss of practical bearings, and a desperate clutching onto sinking ships that drags down themselves and those around them? Let's hope not. Let's just hope the Clintons are one pathetically sick pair, and that once their incomprehensible spell is broken, their supporters will recover their balance and common sense.

This idea that the Clintons have some kind of sacred democratic right to stay in the campaign and continue to throw Hail Mary passes, or pray for magical superdelegate conversions or improbable crunch time rules changes, as they drive their supporters into ever deeper psychic pits of paranoia, insulted entitlement, victimization and hysterical rage, is frankly ludicrous.

Nah, Dan. It's called plain ol run of the mill everyday democracy. Nothing particularly unusual or new.

I don't agree with your characterization of Senator Clinton, and find it--in a word--hysterical. There have been ugly, devisive tactics on both ends.

What is your point here? That you have a grudge and you have a sacred democratic right to feed it? You do, but if you want to beat the GOP in 2008, I'd maybe rethink that.

What purpose does holding that grudge serve? IMHO, it serves the GOP quite well.

Workerbee, you may be sincerely interested in uniting the party against the GOP, as I am. But your candidate is not doing it. If you are really interested in uniting the party then get together with your fellow Clinton supporters to write a letter to your candidate and tell her to get behind Obama and start uniting now. Every day she extends this divisive campaign is another day in which some of her most hardened supporters become more alienated and bitter.

Instead of having her people tell the media every day why white Appalachians will not vote for Obama, and by extension sending that same message to white Appalachians themselves, why doesn't she instead hit the road, go to Appalachia, and tell them why they must vote for Obama. Why won't she be part of the solution now instead of continuing to exacerbate the problem? Instead of telling Floridians every day why they are victims of Obama, why doesn't she instead turn her energies now toward getting them to vote for Obama?

Unity talk is cheap. Unifying the party means more than offering vague and abstract unity words, but requires actually doing something to unify it. And right now, Hillary Clinton is not doing that. She is still working every day to further divide the party. The most destructive thing she is doing is putting out demoralizing arguments about why Obama can't win. Since Obama is going to be the nomineee, she needs to stop his immediately.

I'm sure we will here more from Bill Clinton and other Clintonites about how Hillary "still has a chance" and how outrageous it is that people like me call for Hillary to get out of the race before she is absolutely, unequivocally, incontrovertibly, apodictically, mathematically eliminated. But decent candidates almost always get out of the race before they are absolutely mathematically eliminated. Had Joe Biden been mathematically eliminated when he quit? Had Chris Dodd? Had Bill Richardson? Richardon could have decided to run the same kind of divisive blackmail campaign Clinton is running. He could have argued, "I am the only candidate who can deliver the decisive Mexican-American vote for the Democrats." He could have worked to anger and polarize those supporters. And then we would have millions of angry, alienated, radicalized Mexican-Americans claiming right now that Bill Richardson doesn't get any respect, and that unless we overturn everything that has happened so far and give Richardson the nomination at the convention, they will vote for McCain. But Richardson didn't do that - possibly because he is not a selfish prick.

There are many things we all have a right to do, but that it is nevertheless not right to do. I have a constitutional right to say almost anything I want to my family members. I could spend my days sowing division among them by exercising my free speech rights. But it would be wrong for me to do it. Clinton has a constitutional and legal right, under our democratic system, to stay in this race. But what she is doing is not right. The value of hanging hopes on the mathematically minuscule chance she has left is far outweighed by the daily damage that is being done by her inherently divisive campaign. She must stop.

Dan,

Hillary isn't my candidate. That you think so may have something to do with your state of mind, which I believe is somewhat overwrought and fatigued. I understand, a little. I never got off the fence, so I'm not emotionally involved. I can say that I wish MY candidate stayed in the race longer, because it was a much better race when he was in it, and I think he figured it out, too, because he came out for Obama. I didn't think he would. The fact that he did caused me to rethink some things. Step back a bit.

Richardson, et al, did not have nearly half of the Democratic vote. Hillary does. I think you're really worried about this, as are many Obama supporters, but I don't think you should be.

There's an old saying, "It takes two to tango." I don't blame Hillary or Obama for this. I blame their respective supporters equally. It's time to stop the division and unify. If you aren't working for that, you aren't working to defeat the GOP.

That's about all I have left to say other than I've always respected you. Still do. I wouldn't bother, otherwise.

Well, what concrete steps do you think party leaders should take to unify the party? It seems to me that the chief impediment right now is that Hillary Clinton will not suspend her campaign.

I decline to play the moral equivalence game here. While Obama has been working passages into his speeches about how awesome Clinton is, Clinton has been telling the country that the party's almost certain nominee can't win. While Obama has been making positive noises about including all major figures and leaders into his administration, Bill Clinton has been lobbying delegates to force Hillary Clinton into the VP slot, whatever the Obama campaign's decision. It is not a two-way street; it's not a tango a deux. We have one candidate looking ahead and working to unify, and another candidate hanging on to the past and working to divide.

And here's the kicker: Once it is clear that your rival is going to be the nominee, then you should stop writing editorials and such telling people that you are the best candidate, even if you continue to believe that in your heart. I'm sorry to be so blunt about it, but if Hillary Clinton is really serious about uniting the party behind the nominee, then she needs to shut up, and desist with statements about what is wrong with Obama.

Dan, I think Krugman had a fair set of concrete advice for both candidates.

With the race so evenly split, it is going to probably go to the convention, and it probably should.

My hope is that their both thrown out as being too divisive, and MY candidate gets the nod.

How's that for equal offense?

:P

With the race so evenly split, it is going to probably go to the convention, and it probably should.

Given that comment, I would say your professions of concern for unity have been exposed as fraudulent. No objective observer, having witnessed the divisive effect that the past several months have had on the Democratic Party, could possibly think that two and a half more months of this ugly cage match will have any kind of healing or unifying effect on the party. I don't see how anyone serious about beating John McCain, as you claim to be, could hold that the race "probably should" go to the convention.

When the Clinton candidacy finally ends, whether it is now or in August, it is going to be a very painful blow to her and her supporters. They will need substantial recovery time. Better that blow comes now, more than five months before the election, rather than in August with less than three months to go.

Oh, codswallop, Dan. That's just silly.

Read the angry Clinton supporters complaints. You're their polar opposite, you're all jumping the shark. It's beyond tiresome and you folks are driving the division equally as hard. I won't hold anyone's misguided zealotry against the actual people running.

I reflect far more accurately the typical dem voter. So go ahead and insult me. I'll still vote for your candidate, but I sure will think less of you. I really think you need to get away from politics for a spell.

Sorry.

You're still invited to the Barbeque. I'll make sure you get an extra Hillary effigy to grill.

You didn't reply to the point I made. It doesn't matter whether Obama supporters are or are not equally responsible for sowing division in the Democratic ranks. The point is that the prolongation of the race is quite obviously making the situation worse. If you are serious about uniting the party then you should be calling for an end to the race now.

I already addressed that point Dan. I'm sorry, this is one of the closest primaries in the history of the democratic primary. It should go to the convention. Changing the rules and procedures is ridiculous.

The only ones that are making it a divided electorate are those fanatics in both camps that are gullible enough to be led by the nose by our hysterical media.

You can buy into it, just don't expect me, or the majority of voters, to.

Peace.

Changing the rules and procedures is ridiculous.

What changes are you talking about? Several candidates have dropped out of the race this season. None of those decisions required any changes in rules or procedures.

Nothing good can come from a failure to wrap up this nomination battle well before the convention, as modern party history bears out. The convention ends on August 28th and the election is on November 4th. That's just over two months, which isn't nearly a sufficient period of time for healing, and for reorganization and remobilization of the Clinton forces as part of the Obama campaign. You're talking like a crazy person.

avatar

CLINTON SUPPORTERS losing, CLINTON SUPPORETERS are making ridiculous claims about general election demographics and trying to change the rules at the end of the game, CLINTON SUPPORTERS are the ones who have gone negative since the early days of this primary, yet it's Obama who needs to unify the party? This is the very definition of chutzpah.

To hell with all of you. Sit home in November because your poor little feelings were hurt because your warrior princess got beat FAIR AND SQUARE, and enjoy a McCain presidency. I am sick to death of your constant whining and constant bullshit. The adults are ready to move forward. I suggest you all shut the fuck up until you can behave like adults instead of tantrum-throwimg children.

Um, brewman.

That was incredibly sophomoric.

Look, I know you fanatics, and I mean that in the kindest way, don't like reality.

The fact is the vote is close. The delegate count is close. The polling is worrisome.

If the race was a slam dunk, the supers would have acted. It isn't.

It would be nice to behave like adults, sure. How about we let the process, a well established and tested process, play out?

That IS the adult thing to do. It would be helpful if we didn't go out of our way to eat our own, either. Let's save that for the unity barbeque.

Here we go again... *rolls eyes*

Just for the record I supported Chris Dodd until he bowed out. By that time it was just Clinton and Obama left in the race. And if I remember right it was the Clinton supporters who started with the "Obamamaniacs" and "Worshiping the cult of Obama" nonsense. Senator Obama and his supporters aren't the ones who started all of us down this path. The reason Clinton will not be the nominee has NOTHING to do with sexism or any kind of "anti-Hillary" bias. It comes down to her vote on AUMF, the "obliterate Iran" comments, her and Bill interjecting race bait politics into this campaign and her running of a generally divisive campaign. Senator Obama might take the high road but that doesn't mean his supporters are gonna sit back while we and the candidate we support get smeared!!!

Gang rape? Gimme a f'ing break...

All I know is that if it is Hillary that was the nominee I would vote for her in November. I get the distinct impression that Clinton supporters would vote for McCain out of spite in some kind of futile and useless attempt to vindicate her. It should be all about getting a democrat in the Executive Branch...or so one would think.

I agree that "gang rape" is inappropriate.

A look at the readers post column might give us a clue as to why a normally coherent Clinton supporter might use the ugly term, though.

My thoughts on this, as someone whose first choice was Edwards, and second choice was Dodd, is this:

It really doesn't matter who started it.WE need to END it. Both campaigns have been typically putrid and negative. Not to the point of GOP nastiness, but close. We, as collective progressives have nothing to hold our heads up over.

I do know one thing. WE WILL LOSE THIS ELECTION if we continue with the petty politics of division. History teaches us this, if nothing else.

MJ has been one of the loudest dividers and hopefully look back with horror on some on the columns he's penned, and deleted.

I'm looking forward to the day when people recognize division trolls and shun them and get back to discussing real issues that mean something. We're being manipulated. Again. You'd think we would have learned by now. But no. Sadly.

Hey Libertine, did you come to Middletown yesterday to see Obama? :) I was on the hill with the other sardines.

Howya doin' workerbee? 8)

Nawwww...didn't make it down to Weslyan yesterday. Too early in the morn to have to get up...though I would loved to be able hear Barack speak in person.

For my part I am trying to show restraint. I want to walk us all back from the edge of the abyss. Paramount importance on my mind the that a D is being sworn in on January 20, 2009. I wont disparage Clinton too much. Election politics is a hardball game and that is the way she played it. But the race is all over now but for the shouting. I have no problem with her playing out the primary process. I do feel she owes that to her very passionate supporters. But the rhetoric needs to be tamped down by her side. As far as Obama goes I really feel criticism of him is unwarranted. Some of his supporters are still fanning the flames (or rubbing the salt in) but Obama himself is trying to be gracious.

For the life of me I can't figure out Clinton's referral to Bobby Kennedy. In my mind Bobby's tragic legacy is that he was cut down by an assassin's bullets in the prime of his life. There are no other "lessons" to take from his candidacy in '68. And America's nutjob Lunatic Fringe needs no encouragement. I am willing to drop the matter though. We really do need to start unifying the left for the upcoming general election.

Hope you are having a great Memorial Day workerbee...the cookout is about to start here. ;)

:)

LOL...

this;

Paramount importance on my mind the that a D is being sworn in on January 20, 2009.


should have been;

Paramount importance in my mind is that a D is sworn in on January 20, 2009.

I'll chalk that up to hunger, lol. :-P

:)

Can I come over? The ex got the barbeque.

LOL

Just kidding.

I think Obama has been stellar. I don't think Clinton is anywhere near as bad as her critics and campaign have made her out to be. But maybe that's just me.

Lis B put up a youtube of Obama's speech. It's not really political, but it's inspiring, and I recommend it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX5WEgqw6pM

Middletown looked lovely. I was proud of our lil city. I heard a rumor that Wesleyan might be hosting a Presidential Debate. If that happens, I'll host a party as I'm about a mile away. If you join Genghis's mybo group, you'll hear about it.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/TPM-aholicsSupportGroup

This group is neither sponsored nor endorsed by TalkingPointsMemo.com

Just sayin.

I from the Hartford area...Middletown is just a hop, skip and a jump away. I just joined the group too.

Middletown hosting a presidential debate? Wow, very cool if it happens. It is a beautiful city. I worked in Old Saybrook for 2 years in the '90's and drove through Middletown on Route 9 twice a day, 5 days a week. The traffic sucked at times but the city was always very nice. ;-)

Well you missed this cookout but the next one should be on July 4th...I'll extend the invite now. I am serious. If you are in town you are welcome here. Let me know...

:)

Maybe I'll take you up on that. I'll friend you at mybo, and figure out what's going on. It's a Friday this year. Cool.

:)

It's a matter of framing and perspective. To Krugman, the LBJ flap and the RFK flap is caused by Obama supporters reacting excessively to Hillary's comments. They apparently assume the best of possible motives for Hillary, and think ascribing race-baiting intent to her motives is unfair politics by the Obama camp.

Partisan Obama supporters might say the opposite about Clinton pushing the "bitter" and "cling" comments as an issue, and using them to describe Obama as an elitist was equally, if not more, absurd.

Even the best politicians sometimes make impolitic statements, and it is certainly possible to overreact to them. But Krugman seems to be blaming this fracas on the Obama camp's reaction, not Clinton's original, unfortunate comments, despite Obama's own unequivocal statement, "Sen. Clinton says that she did not intend any offense by it, and I would take her at her word on that." Blaming the controversy over Clinton's gaffe on Obama supporters, ignoring the candidate's diminution of the issue, is itself absurd also.

Partisans on both sides have been irrationally extreme in their reactions to perceived slights. Certainly stylistic differences between the candidates are significant and important, but on the issues the two are quite similar. Perhaps that similarity explains, ironically, the vehemence of the fight.

Alexander Pope was right: what mighty contests rise from trivial things!

Although Krugman sometimes sounds like just another Clintonista I don't think he will go down with the "mother ship". His economic columns continue to be relatively free of the kind of cant that is in his political columns.

In the spirit of a "team of rivals" I hope that Obama would bring Krugman into his team to counterbalace the influence of the Chicago School of economics.

Whoa! As a rape survivor I am appalled that you DARE use that term. You disgust me. How could ANYTHING that has been written or said even remotely compare to rape? Even remotely! You need to get your head out of the ether.

Hillary Clinton has never and will never, and I mean NEVER come close to rape. She's spent most of her adult life surrounded by security in mansions paid for by taxpayers. She's one of most protected people on the planet. She lives in a bubble of her own creation -- and any "rough treatment" she has experienced over this campaign or any other time in her life, she ACCEPTED as part of political life. She chose. She could step into or out of that spotlight any time she desires.

Rape victims do not have a choice.

As for verbal abuse, please. Do NOT ever even consider verbal abuse akin to rape. Just do NOT.

You people with banter with words and consider yourselves savvy and erudite. You disgust me.

Just like Senator Clinton -- THINK before you open your mouths.

avatar

Hey, freakin take a look around this blog or any blog and see for yourself. What do you call what is going on here and has been for months? You put a term to it what you will. But, when I see people doing exactly this on a daily basis to someone this is the term that fits. "gang rape"

Good God, Louisville1975, show some respect for TPM, your readers, and to DrZee personally. Your terminology can seriously bring back some horrific memories for people, and you should respect that after being asked only once. You've been asked dozens of times in the last 48 hours. Stop using the "GR" term. I'm fairly certain this kind of abusive language is against TPM's "Terms & Conditions" that you agreed to.

avatar

And, I am neither clever or erudite. And, I said "gang rape" of her character, her person. Your telling me that isn't happening? Did she ask for all the words that are being pushed her way. Misogyinist? Sexist? Hateful? Hurtful? Tell me the definition of what you have seen here. I'd love to hear it. Thoughtful prose by Obama supporters? Is the word "hate" worse than the word "rape"?

Sexist? Outside of Chris Matthews and her own friends on Foxs what comments are sexist? If she was a white southern guy, I doubt she'd be getting a way with wishing for Obama's timely demise. I'm a woman of her age and she's no role model for me.

She lost the nomination in Iowa and every white woman I know in Iowa voted for Obama. She lost the old-fashioned way: she earned it. Only her boundless sense of entitlement keeps her in the race.

I don't know what anyone else but you would say; but I know I would say the term is totally preposterous. Clinton was the favorite for a long time; and she was as shocked as a lot of people that Obama went ahead and stayed ahead. She IS desperate; but it isn't caused by what Obama supporters, the MSM, or anyone else has done. It is because she ran an inferior campaign and has more baggage than a school bus full of world travelers.

"Assassinate" was a poor choice of words; but this is worse.

Please listen to yourself and your arguments.

Louis

They are just provocateurs trying to stoke the flames of division as deep as they can BETWEEN THE Hillary camp and the Obama camp. (btw) Obama himself does not act like the Obamanoids. As Krugman says, that can only hurt the Democrats in November.

All these characters that we have seen post on these pagers since the campaign started who appear to be Obamanoids, are new or infrequent posters and all they do is engage in vitriol against Clinton or anyone who dares to support here . My suspicion is that they are part of Rush's "chaos" brigade deployed to sow chaos amongst the Democrats to give McCain a better chance in November.

They are dull, unimaginative, and prone to wild exaggerations, stupidity and plain old meanness and that for me spells REPUBLICAN OPERATIVES.

Watched “Recount” on HBO and got a reminder of what criminality Republican Operatives are capable of. So beware of these so-called “Obama Supporters”. I don’t buy it. They show no characteristic of a Liberal sensibility but all the ugly traits of Republicans.

The worst mistake the nominee can make is to sue for peace to the loser. Obama won. Hillary will endorse him and campaign for him.
As for her more extreme supporters, let them do what they want. The winner does not sue for peace. Our guys lose when they are perceived as wusses. One thing about Hillary, if she won she'd tell the other side to go to hell. Obama won't do that and he shouldn't. But it's not a terrible model.
Clinton supporters should be the last people urging Obama to suck up to them when they know, if the shoe was on the other foot, they would reward their friends, punish their enemies and WIN.
That is the only way to win.

Did you refuse to shake the hands of the losers in stickball, MJ?

Your advocating poor sportsmanship?

There is someone being a tool around here, (of the GOP) and it ain't Krugman.

yeah, but i didnt kiss their butt

You just knocked them in the head with your stick.

It was a bat.

LOL, I know, a BIG bat.

:D

I know you can be a force for good MJ. I do.

Thanks, Workerbee.

Actually, here is the bat in question.
http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/L11036597.jpg

I didn't actually hit the guy, but I did dwing it nicely.

Not dwing. Swing. It scared the guy bigtime. It's a long story but you are on to something!

That is one scary bat. I'd love to hear the story some time.

avatar

Oh, that kind of bat.

"The worst mistake the nominee can make is to sue for peace to the loser. Obama won."

100% agree. It's true. Obama can't appear weak. He's been gracious, but he can't grovel to the loser. If she fails to pay along after submitting, she should be censured or shunned politically from here on out. Remember: we have to 1) End Iraq, and 2) Fix Bush's disasters. The Clintons are not about the Country or the Party.

avatar

You trash Krugman and praise Andrew Sullivan? You really have jumped the shark.

. One thing about Hillary, if she won she'd tell the other side to go to hell. Obama won't do that and he shouldn't.

For those of you who follow my observations on logic and reasoning in general, notice how MJ's posts make claims that he nor anyone could possibly substantiate.

He claims that if the shoe were (notice the contrary-to-fact conditional)on the other foot, Hillary would be mean to Obama or some such Rosenbergian nonsense.

How does he know that? He does not and nobody could know such a thing in principle.

The Obamanoids are replete with such speculative assertions parading around as proven fact.

One wonders, outside of smearing people what else does Rosenberg do? Ask yourself that.

avatar

What I have come to understand from all the Clintonista threats to secede from the Democratic party and their admonitions that should Clinton not win they will not vote for Obama, regardless, and from their ongoing mantra blaming Obama is that these people are Clintonites, not Democrats. They, like their icon only want what they want and the earth be scorched. It finally sunk in when in an appalling overabundance of tacky Clinton chose to bolster her determination to stay on by alluding to RFK's assassination. EVEN if no malice was attached to the utterance, it was done in a blatant attempt to tie herself to the Kennedy aura rather than to cite more recent, more reasonable examples of late campaigns. But it was HER gaffe and furious that Sen. Obama did not flaunt it as she did the bitter comments and the Wright situation, she and her minions decided that if he was going to be rational, they could blame him for HER dim-witted obtuse comment. (her own mentor, Charles Rangel, has already called her utterances 'dumb'". Her camp followers (including Krugman)have bought it hook line and sinker. I have read the blogs. It's Obama's fault that she is being 'demonized'. It is obvious from her lack of endorsements that the Superdelegates see her for what she is. It is obvious from the Superdelegates that have abandoned her that they do not want any part of her campaign. Like a wilfull child she has ravaged the fabric of unity in the name of Clinton. She should at least have the decency to accept the blame.

Look. The party is ipso facto divided. I think all the spleen vented by the Obama and Hillary supporters is due to this.

The question is, do you want to beat the GOP? Then you'll need the 47% of the party that prefers Clinton. Clintons supporters, slim chance that they have, will need the 50% of the party that prefer Obama. Do the math.

Obama wants this type of division to end, as does Hillary. I suggest we listen to them rather than "division trolls" doing their best to incite and divide us.

The differences in policy with these two candidates precludes any REAL opposition based on fact, you might want to consider you're being played.

Just like we were back in 200, and 2004.

Please don't buy into it anymore.

avatar

Quite right, workerbee

avatar

I dunno, I don't see that Hillary wants the division to end, at least not until she gets something from Obama for it.

avatar

Agree with that. She launches grenades (FLA as historic voter rights crusade) and we are supposed to smile approvingly. She invokes assassination nightmares and we are supposed to beg her supporters forgiveness for questioning her empathy. Bill says this is a contact sport and now its gang rape. Good grief. Im trying to see it from the HRC supporter side, but not seeing alot of it in return. And I believe if they cant see the double standard they never will. Still, we fight a greater evil in November, so Im hoping for some water under the bridge.

avatar

Two things. First, Obama is probably far more practical than you are. Therefore he will likely have examined the electoral map and may, if he is wise, select Clinton, regardless of your outrage over the RFK remark. You may have noticed that it just doesn't have the traction you thought it deserved. That's because it cuts two ways. It outrages Obama supporters, but makes Obama supporters look hysterical to everyone else. Nor does the deeply negative outlook on human nature jive with the image of idealism formerly associated with Obama supporters.

Second, anyone can sing Sinatra. Most of his songs have a very limited range.

avatar

I don't get it when I hear one side or the other say that the supporters of the other candidate are the evil ones. Get a grip! There's vehemence expressed by both sides. To those who say Clinton has been unfairly attacked here, why not go check out hillaryis44.com, where the attacks on Obama are relentless and overhyped.

The true dynamics here are that both campaigns started out waging a mostly positive campaign. Obama took the lead in that stage of the campaign. Clinton's only hope to win was to go negative. She did it. It worked partially - she stemmed the bleeding and got to breakeven for the post-Wisconsin contests. But breakeven wasn't good enough, as Obama had the lead. I think it's fair to say that had Clinton gotten the lead, Obama's campaign would have been far less negative than hers. It's partially a stylistic (and hopefully governing) preference - and it's also true that this is her last, best shot at the presidency, so she had more motivation to throw the kitchen sink.

The problem is that she has continued to gin up her supporters' sense of resentment well past the point at which she has lost the contest. There is always some resentment at the end of a primary contest. I remember resenting Carter for beating Udall; Carter for beating Kennedy; Mondale for beating Hart (with that ridiculous "Where's the Beef" line, and Roger Mudd's unfair slant on the southern primaries - the wounds take a long time to heal), etc. But I got over it and voted Democratic every time. What Clinton is doing is taking it too far. She is emphasizing not only differences, but imagines that she, exclusively, has suffered slights - which, frankly, took place on both sides of the campaign. She is hurting Obama as the national nominee. it is time to give it up if she really believes in the policies she has run on. There's too much healing to be done. If this goes on to the convention, there is no way the Democrats win.

Pablo

avatar

Otto is right in saying "...image of idealism formerly associated with Obama supporters." I was (artlessly) fully committed to a "let the best candidate win" campaign. I was so repulsed by the present administration. Then I heard Hillary answer "not as far as I know" to the question of Obama being Muslim (she knew better)...later she pontificated "I would not have remained in that church." She made hay with the 'bitter' comments and that's when I realized that this talented woman had chosen, not to run a campaign on her considerable merits, but instead to lacerate her opponent at every opportunity. She called him a 'wimp' and even her surrogate Carville said in an interview "If Hillary gave one of her xxxxx to Obama he would have one and she would have two." nary an apology for those sickening comments. Later came the fact that he could not carry 'white workers' although Oregon has disproved that by 16% in a state in which she and her family campaigned ardously. All this to say that I did not come to my current stance easily, but sadly, here I am.

For months now, Krugman's been on my "why bother list" with Kristol and Krauthammer


So if it isn't too much trouble MJ - what did he say?

As if I couldn't get that from the headline

But I do rely on others to read what I won't

Krugman said unite or die.

Sound familiar?

Krugnan said that the winner needs to go to the loser, make her VP, and appease her grieving supporters. Hillary was right about economists. Not too bright.

What did he say Clinton should do?

He said she should continue to try to steal the nomination by any means necessary.

No, he didn't.

Alright, workerbee, you're working on me. I admire your sunny disposition in the midst of all this crossfire. I'll tone it down. Not against Krugman, but against Hillary. Until midnight, June 3rd-4th. :)

You rock.

Totally.

avatar

So once again we have Obama distancing himself from his supporters, who continue to be ever so thin skinned about anything that could possibly be construed as some slight, even though his nomination is certainly in the bag. Move on!

The real concern I have (and I did vote for Obama) is not him, it's his inablility to deal in any way with his supporters and surrogates to keep them on message (you know, messages that talk about policies and positions, not personalities). If in his desire to bring "change" about he cannot even keep his own supporters from going off the reservation, how is he going to govern. The shock and outrage over anything and everything Clinton does just feeds the right wing attack machine.

How we all feel toward the current administration and Republicans in general is where our energies must be directed.

I am so disappointed in Kos and Josh for allowing their sites to fall into gutter politics. Progressives have few enough places to go for real info about what is going on, not gossip, rumor and trivial tales.

Grow up people, this is our and our children's future we hold in our hands. This isn't a food fight.

We'll be happy to direct our energy toward the Republicans if Hillary would just go home. (That is the polite version of where I'd like her to go).

What an absurdity. How can a candidate keep his supporters on message. Who is keeping you on message?
The question is keepin