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A Question for the Community: To Hack or Not To Hack?
It's important to remember that none of us are above the fray, that we all have hackish tendencies to suppress information which doesn't fit our worldview and privilege information that does. We're more likely to excuse behavior from people we like and exaggerate the ills of people we don't like. I try to fight hackish tendencies especially during this intra-Dem battle, but I don't claim to have superhuman Nonhack powers.How do you push back your hackishness? I force myself to read thoughtful conservatives, to read stuff outside of the partisan political blogosphere, and to generally take a deep breath sometimes. You?
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I refer back to a well known phrase: "facts have a well known liberal bias" and accept that my bias runs that way. It is necessary, however, to listen and consider other's views, but not necessarily agree or endorse said views. For that I often rely on blogs that advertise another well known phrase: "we listen/watch/read so you don't have to" and accept those synopses (sp?) as at least generally accurate. Lastly, a grain of salt (gee, I'm full of quotes today!) with whatever anyone says works. Being a skeptic is, after all, a natural consequence of adopting the scientific method of inquiry.
May 8, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can anyone recommend a list of thoughtful conservatives' blogs or opinions that would be helpful?
May 8, 2008 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ann Coulter's my favorite.
May 8, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't need someone to give you a list, read anything and everything and be skeptical of anything and everything.
May 8, 2008 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I must admit that I find it very difficult to read even thoughtful conservative thought, if indeed the term itself is not oxymoronic. The visceral reaction it provokes is dangerous to my physical and mental well-being. That said, I occasionally will provide myself a dose of righteous indignation by taking a gander at Bill Kristol and regularly read Brooks, sometimes even finding something to like so long as he's not talking about politics, while other times needing a blood pressure gauge to monitor my heartrate and vowing never again to return.
Within the spectrum of Democratic opinion, however, I try to devour all I can, across the spectrum. During the period before the Iraq war, I read all the arguments in favor by the so-called liberal hawks, and was fascinated by the recent follow up in Slate. It is essential to always maintain skepticism, particularly when someone claims to found an unimpeachable truth and at least within the spectrum of right, center and left wing thought (excluding the religious right) try to keep my disagreements respectful, without questioning the moral character of my opponents. Unfortunately, I don't see much of that on these boards, which are dominated by Obama followers so enthralled with the righteousness of their cause that they see every move by HRC as a nefarious plot to take over the world and whose vitriol rivals that of the vast right wing conspiracy (it really did/does exist). Regularly, the most trifling, cheerleader drivel shoots to the top of the recommended list while any deviation from the orthodoxy nearly always disappears quickly into the ether. I say that as someone who has had a hard time deciding between the candidates, but has been forced into defending HRC merely to try to correct the imbalance and bring a does of sanity to the conversation.
And a more important question. Why can't I make blockquotes or hyperlinks when I'm writing a comment?
May 8, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I meant dose of reality.
May 8, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nicholas Kristof, whom I ordinarily find tiresome and particularly annoying in his attempts to appear "evenhanded" had an interesting piece
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17kristof.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
a few weeks ago referring to psychological studies showing how people seek out and respond to information that reinforces their own beliefs. The good news is that this bias appears to affect conservatives to a greater degree than liberals. Kristof's solution is to "seek an information diet that includes a salad bar of information sources — with a special focus on unpalatable rubbish from fools. The worse it tastes, the better it may be for us." Unfortunately, I don't have the stomach for it.
May 8, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that's right. I've been particularly fascinated by some of the conversation on that topic being generated by Ethan Zuckerman of Global Voices. I'll probably dig into his concept of "homophily" on these pages at some point, but check out those links. They're good stuff.
May 8, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anglachel's Journal and David Seaton are good correctives to this site.
May 8, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
It sounds a little like even in your efforts to step out of your hackishness you're holding onto it Armchair. At least in the Brooks/Kristol examples. Kristol seems like a particularly bad way of doing this, in fact, since he himself never makes much of an effort to be much more than a hack. Brooks has his moments when he tries to rise above that, so in those moments I find it valuable to meet him halfway. But he can be tricky, because he can slip back and if you're not careful you give him the benefit of the doubt when he doesn't deserve it.
As for the Obama dominance on these boards and HRC's nefarious plots. I find myself both put off by some members of the community's Obama hackishness as well as Clinton herself's inability to fight in good faith.
In otherwords, I think you're right that some folks here have veered into Obama worship, but I don't think that necessarily means they're wrong when Hillary acts in bad faith.
May 8, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think we agree about Brooks and Kristol. Both are hacks of varying degrees from the other side whom I occasionally peruse and, in the case of Brooks, even sometimes find a helpful or interesting nugget. As to my own hackishness, I accept your diagnosis, although I might quibble with the degree of my own infection. Of course, one antidote to excessive hackishness is recognize the degree to which one is infected.
May 8, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I'm just saying seeing as how we agree Kristol and Brooks are both, to varying degrees, hacks, they'd be a bad place to start to seek reinforce our own unhackish tendencies.
As for self diagnosis, I agree. I started my own self-review by cleaning up my RSS feeds. It represents my media diet, after all.
May 8, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't agree with you more about the Obama/Clinton dynamic.
As far as being able to find blogs or columns or any media mediums that aren't "hackish", it's near impossible. I honestly couldn't think of one example where someone tries to present something in a nuanced manner that isn't full-blown biased. I think you guys do pretty good with the nuance but I imagine if I was a McCainiac I wouldn't want to hang around here.
All media has become partisan. Fox, MSNBC, CNN, NY Times, WaPo, you name it. So it's hard not to have the knee-jerk reaction to those diametrically opposed to you in belief (as evident by the items I throw at my television when watching Fox), and really consider the other side of the argument.
So, that's why I find that to avoid hackishness, the best antidote is discussion. With friends, family, etc - people that disagree with you. It allows for much less knee-jerking and more attempts at understanding. (Except for arguments with those people who consistently think they know everything and are always right, quite often despite facts. And we all know someone like that.)
Additionally, on a good day: the TPM Cafe. Somedays, when we get into a really good issue talk, there's a surprising amount of diversity as far as views on topics goes. And the whole community feel takes the knee-jerk reflex away because if someone says something you completely disagree with, well, it's okay because you know you agree with them on some other things.
May 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
For a bracing refresher, try dailyhowler.com.
May 8, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good question. Salon's Blog Report used to provide a good sample (although it certainly didn't confine itself to the thoughtful); unfortunately, they shut that down for some reason.
May 8, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that Atrios posted that bit because an otherwise consistently incisive voice in the progressive blogosphere has been AWOL on matters related to this primary ... other than to chime in with pieces that tangentially, subtly, and finally, all too provocatively, drove readers to ask: So, is Obama the Anti-Christ or should we just ignore the obvious confirmation bias of the siteowner and amuse ourselves with the non-Primary-related content?
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/building-peace-by-digby-heres.html
My take, anyway. Somehow I think this was meant to be more of a question about hackish tendencies generally. Oh well.
May 8, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've come to think that the key to a "Karl Rove" is the ability to sift through what the other group is saying and then be able to attack it from the inside out. I find I can't get to the end of the page or listen to complete exchanges without being nauseated/infuriated. That is a serious weakness and why I'm not in the business, lol. Of course, we are not talking about an academic discussion where I have to look at an opposing viewpoint, this rhetoric is DESIGNED to make the "other" peoples heads explode, so they won't engage, therefore they don't present a counter argument, therefore the "base" is hermetically sealed.
Yay!George Orwell.
May 8, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I'm curious as to how people seek to counteract their own basic tendencies to read what reaffirms their preexisting beliefs or candidate preferences and reject information that doesn't.
May 8, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I actually do it at least once a week by coming here. I think conservatives (for some reason) are more likely to come to places like this to read and participate than liberals are to do the same. I'm not sure why that is.
May 8, 2008 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know. I don't think liberals are perfect, but some members of the conservative base have gone off the deep end recently with a lot of the anti-immigrant stuff, a lot of the racialized stuff w/ Obama, their paranoia with gays. I don't think Limbaugh and Fox do them well in that sense, they contribute to the escalation of unreality.
May 8, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's part of the problem...demonizing any resonableness in their arguments. Most aren't anti-immigrant, we're anti-illegal imigrant. Most aren't anti-gay, we are anti-"special privilage" for anyone including gay people. I can read stuff I disagree with, without altering the point of the person to make it unreasonable.
May 8, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, we may have to agree to disagree on this. I think there are people who, in good faith, believe that illegal immigration is a serious problem and who don't support gay marriage.
But I think that the energy that's poured into those issues radically skews reality and the majority of people who get worked up about them are not motivated by thoughtful disagreement.
In any event, we each think our side is better than the other on this, seems like, if anything, evidence for the problem in the first place.
May 8, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
True, just like I think that there are reasonable people who want stronger environmental regulations and more money for education, but the "energy that's poured into those issues radically skews reality and the majority of people who get worked up about them" and they actually believe that Republicans want to poison the air and water, and that they want to steal lunches from school children.
May 8, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
So in other words, political priorities skew reality?
May 8, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe Pres. Bush's attempts to weaken standards for arsenic and mercury might have something to do with that perception?
May 8, 2008 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is a special privilege to marry someone you love? Or do you have a magical belief that a happy homosexual marriage somehow can destroy a happy heterosexual one?
Is it a special privilege to recognize that a certain SAT score gained by the graduate of a slum score often indicates more ability and diligene than the same score earned by a prep school graduate assisted by tutoring?
Mostly, conservatives seem to believe that anything that ameliorates a past wrong is a special privilege.
May 8, 2008 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not a special privilege to marry someone you love, unless that person is of the same sex as you, or already married to someone else, or a member of your immediate family...
May 13, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, a sociopath has a distinct advantage in this area, as they are able to study content without emotional engagement in subject matter.
This means that a speaker, whose intent it was to silence grassroots opposition, can intentionally infuse inflammatory rhetoric into their argument. Those who already have (even a slight) bias towards their argument tend to ignore or forgive the inflammatory stuff. Those that are biased against the position are prone to having an emotional response elicited that impairs or NEGATES their ability to respond.
This type of rhetoric is specifically designed to build exclusion not consensus. It is in effect a political weapon of mass destruction, non-nuclear perhaps (lol) --kind of a political bioweapon.
May 8, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Conventional wisdom meet meme. Sociopaths aren't devoid of emotion, they are devoid of empathy for others' emotions.
Unfortunately, this is a prime example of why "hackishness" flourishes in journalism.
May 8, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say devoid of emotion, I said without emotional engagement, which as you correctly point out is another way of saying empathy (without sounding all "tree-huggy" ;-))
Of course, I feel that you were more interested in insulting me than engaging the discussion, so I may be biased...(just kidding of course, or not)
May 8, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wasn't trying to insult you in the least, I just found the phrase "without emotional engagement" typical of the conventional wisdom that is passed on in journalism everyday.
May 8, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was not meant to be a "value judgment" and I was not using the term "sociopath" pejoratively, I meant it technically. As I said, by not engaging emotionally, a tactical advantage is realized. Just the nature of the beast as I see it. (Also, I consider it probable that sociopathic behavior occurs within a continuum of behavior even in non-sociopaths, so yes, the issue is the level of empathy and how it relates positively and negatively to decision making).
May 8, 2008 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's good to recall Robert Anton Wilson's notion of the reality tunnel. Your beliefs are not reality.
I've always been a firm believer that you have to really know something if you're going to hate it, which is why I spent the Eighties studying Richard Nixon and Reagan. But it's hard to follow today's conservative commentators because they're so nuts and nasty (e.g. Limbaugh, Malkin, Hannity, etc.) People like Kristol & Brooks are living in a fantasy land.
But I get a free copy of the National Review at work and I'll look at that once in a while and I read Turk's Kung Fu Quip blog. Wolcott seems to read the Right so I don't have to. Quite frankly, if you follow the MSM, you'll be exposed to conservative thought.
That and keep your sense of humor.
May 8, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
David Brooks "reasonable" ?
No way.
I nearly cast the Ben Franklin bio aside because Isaacson refers to Brooks as a "social critic" early on. (Actually, I nearly didn't read it because Isaacson wrote it...once I encountered the Brooks line, I was again tempted to close it for good. Fortunately, I didn't - it's a very decent read.)
Brooks is as much of a hack as Kristol, though he is more artistic with his shit slinging.
May 8, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't agree with you on that. Kristol is pure hack, Brooks has different settings.
As for being tempted to toss out a book because you disagreed with the description of a writer, sounds like you have some hack issues like the rest of us. Although you admirably overcame them...
May 8, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am amazed that you would think that - "Kristol is pure hack, but Brooks has other settings." I am seriously asking you this, so that I don't misinterpret your comment, are you being sarcastic?
May 8, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not at all. Kristol literally uses his column as a tool for the conservative movement (see: floating Jindal a few days ago, attacking Obama as a commie, etc.).
Brooks, for all of his faults, actually does attempt sophisticated thought. I enjoyed his piece on Obama and Reinhold Niebuhr, for instance. I think some of his amateur sociology, though flawed, is provocative and not tied to the interests of the GOP.
I understand that a lot of folks on the left think Brooks' more interesting side is a facade used to trick us reasonable people into buying his hackery, I disagree. He has different settings and moods.
Hell, even Tom Friedman has good days.
May 8, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd have to agree. There are plenty of Brooks' comments that just make me shake my head, but I've also read columns of his that I thought were getting it right when a lot of other people (even people who's work I tend to prefer) were missing it.
May 8, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I always liked Friedman, but heck, I'm a suburbam moderate, so what would I know about how to be a "non-hack" truth teller? I'm sure you could give me a million reasons why he sucks, but he did support a "Patriot Tax" on gas after 9/11, and in retrospect, that is one of the best things we could have done to avoid the situation we find ourselves in terms of our Energy policy, gas prices, and the so called "War on Terror".
May 8, 2008 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am floored by this, and am really floored that this particular column would appear to you as sophisticated thought on Brook's part.
In his first paragraph he makes this observation of Barack Obama, "...taking those little pauses that candidates take when they're afraid of saying something that might hurt them later on..." and this is after he tells the reader that Obama was fatigued and exhausted from his day. So tell me how Brooks knows that Obama was taking these so called pauses because he was afraid of saying something that might hurt him later on? There is simply no way that Brooks could know that was how Obama was thinking. He offers the reader some hackish mind reading of Obama and ascribes the worst motives he can find to describe how Obama was thinking. There could be many reasons why Obama was hesitant in answering questions, including the most reasonable interpretation that Obama was fatigued, pre-occupied with his duties and responsibilities and his reluctance to answer Brooks' questions not because Obama was afraid he might say something that would hurt him later, but because he is aware of the fact that journalists ask questions to hurt a candidate later with those answers. Why? Because journalists do hurt candidates with their answers to questions and actively discourage candidates from answering questions with candor and honesty. The accusation that Clinton and other dem candidates such as Gore always "fail to give a straight answer" might be because the press has created a wariness and guardedness in politicians which is the only correct response to their questions.
And then Brooks claims that "out of the blue" he asks Obama his opinion of Niebuhr's philosophy. Don't you find that a tad disengenuous? Do you think possibly that Brooks is not only giving himself a veneer of intellectualism, but might possibly have reasons for asking Obama about his views on Niebuhr? And why would it occur to Brooks to ask him about Niebuhr in the first place? Is it fair for the reader to speculate about Brooks' motives in asking Obama about that particular philosopher when Brooks is certainly not averse to speculating about Obama's motives in answering Brooks' questions? Things have to make sense and when they don't the reader has to ask why and look at every detail and every comment to find out why.
Frankly, the only sophisticated thought in this article was Brooks' attempt to twist the knife in Obama without appearing to do so.
May 8, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Bev, I just think that's an incredibly strained reading of that piece in which you're looking for things not to like and, just as you accuse Brooks of doing to Obama, reading the worst motives into what he says without any evidence.
May 8, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is not a "strained" reading, it is a critical reading, just as all reading should be critical reading.
Don't you want to know why it occurred to Brooks to ask Obama abut Niebuhr? Do you think that Brooks isn't aware of Niebuhr's background as a proponent of the social gospel mission just as Wright is? Don't you want to know why Brooks is mind reading and why he assumes that all politicians answer questions to avoid hurting themselves? How does the reader know that is true? Why should the reader take Brooks' word for it? Why should the reader believe Brooks' assertion that Obama failed to give a straight answer on every questions he asked, the reader has no way to verify that because he doesn't know the questions, he doesn't know the answers Obama gave and he doesn't know the context in which Obama gave those answers, because Brooks doesn't tell the reader any of that.
Why would you trust any journalist? It's not a matter of whether you think a journalist is trustworthy, (and it has nothing to do with their character or lack of it) it's a matter of verifying their information yourself. Any writer should do that, just as any reader should do that. It's the equivalent of a historian taking the word of another historian and failing to check provenance, primary sourcing and contemporaneous corroboration himself. That is why we have cherry tree chopping versions of history - no one bothers to check.
May 8, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just think you're taking offense at what you perceive as major slights against your candidate. First, I think Brooks has been around enough politicians to be able to say he thought Obama was pausing to make sure he didn't say something bad. And what's wrong with that? Obama's a politician, not a saint. Second, your reading of Brooks bringing up Niebuhr to attack his social gospel history is silly, he COMPLIMENTS Obama for having an opinion on Niebuhr, and Niebuhr is much more complicated than your giving him credit for and is admired by liberal centrists in foreign policy like Peter Beinart. Wright has nothing to do with it.
May 8, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't every skilled politician pause before saying something they might regret? Isn't that sort of high on set of skills required for the job?
[sorry, just wondering]
May 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a good example of what I mean by reading critically. You assume that Obama is my candidate, when my candidate is whoever is nominated in August, I didn't mention who my choice is, but you're making that assumption based on nothing but my criticism of Brooks' column. I don't like Brooks' column because I think he is a bad conservative, I don't like Brooks' column because he is a bad journalist.
Brooks may have been around lots of politicians, but that still does not make him a mind reader. He has NO WAY of ascertaining what Obama is thinking. There could be many reasons why Obama is hesitating in answering questions, including his fear of saying something that could be construed as "bad", but Brooks has no way of knowing that.
Of course Niebuhr is more complicated than a proponent of the social gospel mission, that is my point. So why would Brooks use him especially to promote Brooks' narrative? Don't you as the reader want to know why? Shouldn't Brooks as a journalist explain why to the reader?
Yes, Obama is a politician, but that doesn't mean that Brooks can mind read all politicians and know their motives and reasoning for answering questions.
Lastly, that column is not complimentary to Obama, to the reader who is looking at that column critically and reading it as such, every comment in the last few paragraphs by Brooks is qualified with a "maybe" that is again, nothing more than mind reading. When Obama doesn't give Brooks an unqualified yes or no, Brooks criticizes his answers and when Obama does give him a yes or no, he criticizes Obama and then tells the reader that Obama may not be honest in his answers.
Andrew, the article is awful, it is nothing more than Brooks giving his opinion that Obama doesn't like to give yes/no answers and when he does, he tells the reader that Obama may not mean them. That's not good journalism, it isn't enlightened work, it is not even good work, in fact it is bad work.
May 8, 2008 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
bingo.
May 9, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't agree with that use of the word "hack." A hack is "a person who works solely for mercenary reasons," like a screenwriter who writes junk for money is a hack writer. I really don't know what Atrios is getting at. Anyway, "conservative thought" has become such an oxymoron it is not worth worrying about.
May 8, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
when the word hack is used in the context of policy and politics, the currency (broadly speaking) is partisanship more often than it is actual cash money. in many cases this can make it difficult to distinguish hack from ideologue, but often enough that's a distinction without much of a difference anyway. the question ultimately is: how ingenuous or disingenuous is your argument? is your argument based on your affiliation (with a party, a policy, or a candidate) or is your affiliation based on your argument? (just as: did i write this screenplay for the money i hope to make by selling it, or did i write it purely for the purpose of creating art?)
May 9, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Acknowledge your own biases, and pay attention to how they're likely to shape your judgment. You're much more likely to exaggerate the positives and minimize or excuse the negatives of candidates and policies which you support. Be aware of that, and try to force yourself to think harder in situations where your bias is likely to lead you astray. For example, people are much more likely to critique articles that dispute what they believe than those which support what they believe. Reverse that. When you read an article that supports your beliefs, try especially hard to find its flaws. If someone criticizes your preferred candidate, try to avoid a kneejerk reaction. Ask yourself whether you disagree because you've thought the criticism through or because you hate the idea that it could be true.
May 8, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reasonable advice. Another sane suggestion would be to avoid online communities made up exclusively of groups of people with identical, mutually-reinforcing beliefs. (Huffington Post might be a good place to start.) Unfortunately, I am too trapped in my hackish bubble to adhere to these sound recommendations.
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're a Clinton supporter participating in an Obama-lovin' community, so you're following your advice more than I am. And I appreciate your thoughtful contributions, so I'd say that you've been avoiding the hack-trap pretty well.
May 8, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary who? I dumped her after Indiana. Never really liked her that much anyway. It's just that I have a congenital tendency to swim against the tide. Being surrounded by the Park Slope, limousine liberal set fawning over Obama, I had no choice really but to gravitate to the salty wench. That said, I find nothing hackish in your always insightful and frequently amusing posts.
Now that I've been complemented, though, I must find something new to oppose. So I guess I'm switching to McCain. It's gonna get ugly. Real ugly.
May 8, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent. Despite all the reports of Republican trolls lurking at TPM, I'm expecting a shortage of McCainiacs, so it will be a pleasure to have someone to kick around. And it's only fitting, since everyone knows that your Hillary has become a Republican.
May 9, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great post, Andrew. This is a very interesting question. Politics is a messy business in part because it can be highly subjective. It's also tied directly to the way that we've chosen to look at the world and so is closely related to everything from the fruit of our labors to our metaphysical beliefs (and none of us can see the world but through a glass darkly). Emotions can and do run very high.
Your personal tack of reading outside of your comfort zone makes for excellent advice. I like to try and read as much as I can. As Ben Hocking has pointed out, you simply can't read it all, but there's a lot to be said for variety. You might just change your mind about something. Even if you don't, you might find a way to sharpen your arguments.
I try to go back to first principles whenever things seem to be getting particularly sticky. What is it exactly that I believe? Why do I believe it? Is it justifiable? On what basis is this justification made? I often return to where I'd started when following these inquiries, but I've also been able to see a different point of view this way. In fact, even if I don't agree, I think it's incredibly valuable to try and see things from another point of view. This is particularly useful when it comes to seemingly intractable debates like the one surrounding the issues of abortion, for example. I have to remind myself that in situations like this it simply isn't good enough to just make my argument to someone because we're not even looking at the same world, so to speak.
As an aside, I'll also say that I have a hard time with the way that liberal and conservative are thrown around today. While at times it seems that these words identify the two mainstream "teams" in our politics, perhaps we need new words. Conservatives aren't always particularly conservative (defense spending) and liberals aren't always particularly liberal (gun control). It may be unavoidable to have labels that are ambiguous to some degree, but these words seem to be divorced from their historical origins in the way that they're applied today. However, I mention this not because I expect to spark some great linguistic upheaval, but rather to point out that maybe we cleave ourselves to tightly to these labels at times at the expense of honestly examining ideas.
May 8, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Liberal" and "Conservative" are being thrown around like hate speech (who started it? I don't know, but I do know a few network personalities that do it A LOT!). Of course, hate speech is often answered with hate speech, which leads to an increase in VOLUME which leads to loud hate speech...
I use a trick when separating substance from "hate" (I intentionally use "hate" instead of "inflammatory" because hate is what is fostered by this type of discourse): Take a diatribe, substitute the "action word" du jour ("these far left..." "radical leftist..." "radical socialists...""socialist","left") with a known racial epithet and if the sentence still sorta works, it's hate speech (try it with a Bill O'Rielly rant). If, once the substitution is made, it sounds like a speech given by someone with Tourette syndrome(should make sense but why is THAT word in there?) then the person was at least trying to make a logical argument.
Fun with words, hahaha ;-)
May 8, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
It might help to begin with a recognition that just about everything except the time of day and your exact social security number is debatable. So when writing a comment for anyone else to read, one should remember that there are always other perspectives somewhere that differ from the one you are expressing. There isn’t much point to being so scrupulous that you never write anything about which you are not absolutely certain. Unless you are on a jury in a criminal matter, you really don’t even have to hold the standard of beyond reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty. My standard is simple. I only write when I think I have something to contribute that is not represented in someone else’s writing, and which is helpful in some way to the discussion. I will admit that this means that I am an infrequent commenter. If I had to produce a regular volume of commentary I think I would be producing a lot of unremarkable work which would be annoyingly predictable. On the other hand, as Linus Pauling once said to explain why he had produced so many valuable discoveries, “In order to have good ideas you have to have a lot of ideas.” So perhaps the measure to be applied should be “Does my idea have any chance of being a valuable one?”
May 8, 2008 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
One finds that people are rationalizing rather than rational. We tend to start from a position of belief then rationalize why we hold that belief, instead of creating conclusions from empirical data. It is rare - a sort of Road to Damascus moment - when one changes that root belief, but it does happen.
I feel a compulsion to be "understood" and tend to see disagreement as an imperfect understanding of my point... I have to check myself to ensure I'm taking input... it's difficult, but I've noticed my central beliefs change.
If one has a discussion and "wins" all arguments, then one has wasted time instead of learning something.
I avoid reading material from individuals whose conclusions I can predict before I read it: that goes for those from the Left or the Right. Usually that material emanates from a tribal instinct more than a rational basis.
I appreciate this thread to help folks become conscious of their own bias and in that way promote Reasoned discussion.
May 8, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read Commentary and The Public Interest for years; but about the time I decided to drop the former in favor of the latter, the latter decided to close down in favor of the former. A year or so along I decided to drop Commentary altogether, simply by not renewing: after a third of a century and going on two terms of Bush, enough already, those people had proven what their advice is worth. So I supplemented my long-standing subscription to the The New York Review with one to The Atlantic: centrist replacing neoconservative.
I don't read outside what I've decided is the respectable range, at least in what I might call core politics. But I certainly don't hesitate to read something that seems like factual reporting on a topic where some might insist on reading in political bias, such as an article in this weekend's NY Times about injury patterns to girl athletes, where I imagine I could hear complaints from the more ideological feminists. By now, I'm pretty confident I can for instance read from an embedded reporter with the troops and still understand a reporter really in the midst of Iraqis. I figure I can tell whether I'm getting facts, whether or not they fit my preferred political orientation.
May 8, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmmm...what you're describing here as "hackishness" seems to be a tendency to insulate yourself such that you are surrounded by information that reinforces your worldview - prevents that worldview from being challenged.
Socially, we all tend to surround ourselves with people who share our value and belief systems - that's how we "relate" to one another. We don't do this exclusively or perfectly, invariably there will be small ways that we differ from one another, and if we spend enough time around each other, those differences will emerge.
I don't immerse myself in political conservatism. I know where conservative journalists are coming from on most issues, I know their agendas, and I'm not interested. And with the MSM being what it is, enough of that slips into my daily consciousness, that I don't have to seek it out to be made aware of it.
My value system is what it is. I've lived long enough, have had enough life experiences for frame of reference, that I take issues as they come and evaluate them as I encounter them. On some issues, I'm actually closer to a politically conservative position than I am to a liberal one.
The times when I find that I really need to spend concentrated time in a forum with a political focus is when I feel a need for political activism. Now is such a time. And this forum has the right balance to nurture that for me.
So, does that make me a "hack"? I guess maybe in that I'm choosing to assume a particular political posture at this time toward a specific goal.
May 8, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone who's ever worked in a newsroom knows that between editors and writers there is constant consideration about what gets above the daily din. The gatekeeper mentality.
The power of the web is movement beyond these limits, and I agree with every ounce of sentiment expressed here that democracy demands no less.
May 9, 2008 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink