On a more positive note, my comment was posted in less than a minute! Thanks, TPM folks, for speeding up the process.

MJ

While I don't often comment on your posts because I generally agree with you and have nothing important to add, here I will disagree. Sometimes, like an alcoholic, people (or countries) have to hit bottom before they realize they need to make a drastic change. If Hillary was the only viable Democrat running, I would probably hold my nose and vote for her as the lesser of two evils. But having the alternative of a transformational, brillant, and wise leader rather than a lesser evil, I intend to do everything I can to help Obama get nominated and elected. But if somehow Hillary manages to convince the DNC that he is unelectable and gets the nomination I will not vote for President for the first time in my 40 years as a voter. I would rather die. Or at least let the country see what happens when we keep electing phony bullshit artists. I have zero confidence that Hillary will actually fight for the things she claims she will. She is the ultimate insider and will placate her corporate supporters, not enforce meaningful regulation. I'm pretty comfortable that with at least a basic Dem majority in congress, McCain won't be able to do that much damage. So I will vote in congressional races, but not POTUS if Hillary is the nominee. I would prefer gridlock to the illusion that Hillary as POTUS will be an effective advocate for my beliefs.

You know, MJ, I enjoy living but I also know that tomorrow is not guaranteed, so if I have to die for allowing McCain to get elected, I'll just consider myself a martyr for the cause of a better America in the future. And if I live, maybe Obama will give us another chance to get it right.

You people are crazy!

This is why the Democrat party has only had 2 presidents in the last 40 years. I don't like Clinton either. But come on people. You shouldn't be voting for Clinton or Obama in the first place if you are okay with dangerous planes, lead paint in your toys, unhealthy meat and pills that make you grow extra limbs.

MJ has been as much of a crazy obama guy as anyone on this site. But if he can see that somethings are more important than petty politics, then y'all should pause and try to as well.

Sorry. I thought about this so much I can't sleep. I can't do it. Trinity Church has been threaten with bombs. She knows Wright's not a racist but she went on TV with that "if I had set for 20 years..." garbage. If these people are hurt, not only is the media and the RW responsible, but she will be too. If McCain wins it won't be my fault, it will be Hillary's, cause from my perspective we would not be in this situation were it not for her.

Selfishness will not be rewarded by me.

Pam

A relevant comment posted by TaraV on another thread:

I'm not trying to be overdramatic here. It's just not clear to me that people realize the degree to which we are playing with fire here. There is no clean way for Hillary to get the nomination. So forget all that theory about the big states, blue states and logic of how to win the GE. Hillary would be so damned busy trying to hold together the 39% of the population that still approves of her that she would never have time in the two months after the convention to even think about reaching out to the other 12%. And how would that dynamic affect downticket races?

It says a lot about the American electorate that the polls referenced on the TPM main page from Gallup have McCain running neck and neck with Obama and Clinton. Maybe America needs or deserves another four years of Republican rule.

Listen, I'll probably vote for Clinton if it comes down to it (unless I'm struck by madness and write in Mickey Mouse or Batman), but blind party loyalty is stupid. I'd be floored to discover that even a simple majority of the people in Congress, Democrat and Republican, actually believe in everything they do--aside, that is, from doing everything they can do to get your vote and mine.

Bat/Mouse '08? Anyone?

If (and that's a big IF) Hillary becomes our candidate, I won't vote in the Prez election. I'll vote straight Democrat for down-ticket folks.

Hillary won't be rewarded for being completely and totally wrong on Iraq. Have you folks insisting that you will vote for Hillary ever considered that perhaps another "like Iraq" will occur? McCain is a hawk--no question. I simply see no evidence for Hillary, the dove.

Enlighten me.

How out of touch do you have to be to honestly think that voting for "any" of the presidential canidates is going to cause planes to crash and children to get cancer. This is what is wrong with, or at least one of the things that is wrong with American politics. We tend to not vote "for" someone because of their stance but we vote "against" someone........ and a lot of times because of being misinformed on their stance on only one particular issue. We need to research what all sides say and not get our information from what the other side says about them. Find out what people are really about and don't buy only into the hype......

And just to clarify..... I'm not a big fan of what the current administration has done..... but I can't say I'm a big fan of the views and policies of the two Democratic canidates at this point either. And I have done enough research to understand that McCain is not a clone of Bush.... Can you say that you have? Or do you base your whole view of him on the 100 more years statement which is thrown around totally out of context and with a terrible spin placed on it.....

As I mentioned in my first comment, I have voted in every election for the past 40 years and have always voted for D's. That won't change. I will still vote for Dems for congressional seats. I suspect most of those whose views are similar to mine on this thread would agree.

But Clinton's behavior has placed her outside the "acceptable" D range for me. I survived Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and I expect to survive even McCain or Clinton. But I cannot in good conscience actually help either get elected. It's not a matter of self-rightiousness or purity but rather the knowledge that there is an alternative. There were clearly dramatic differences between Bush and either Gore or Kerry. I don't see dramatic differences between McCain and Clinton except in rhetoric. If elected, McCain will move "leftward" toward the center while Clinton will move "rightward" to the same point. Neither will have any political capital.

If it turns out to be McCain I would expect that to put the Dems in a better position for 2012. But if Clinton actually became POTUS, Democrats will end up even more discredited than we were in 2000. Let's be honest- even if we liked Bill Clinton as POTUS, his behavior made him vulnerable to Republican attacks, and cost Gore the election. It wasn't Nader- I live in TN and worked hard for Gore but could not convince enough people here to vote for him because of his connection to Bill. I would expect much the same with Hillary. She will give the R's all the ammunition they need and we'll be in the desert for several more election cycles.

I don't reach this decision lightly. And I may still be persuaded to change my mind. But it's hard to see what Hillary could do or say that would make me see her differently. Ironically, at one time I convinced myself that while she was ruthless, at least it was in pursuit of goals I agreed with. But as this campaign has progressed I see less and less of that and more of the original "Goldwater Girl". At least McCain is more honest about his insanity.

Workerbee

If that was aimed at me, let me make it clear. John McCain would be a terrible POTUS, as would Hillary. As a concerned citizen, I don't want to see either one. And I certainly don't hate the Clintons- I just don't believe them. I know what to expect from McCain and will do what I can to oppose his agenda. I don't know what the Clinton's agenda is and unless I can get to a point where I believe she is working toward my agenda, I cannot support her.

Workerbee

Thanks for the clarification. I still hope and expect to vote for Obama. If I don't get that choice, it would take a lot to motivate me to enable Hillary. I wish I did believe her. Her stated agenda is fine with me but my concern is that her failure to accomplish it, largely due to her lack of integrity and loyalty to her corporate backers, will reflect badly on Democrats for a long time to come. At least McCain will reflect badly on Republicans.

And I too could not look at myself in the mirror if I actually voted for McCain but that won't happen. The question for me is whether I feel the same way about Hillary. Right now I do. And I didn't have to look hard. I just had to see Hillary describing McCain as a better choice than Obama. So how does she look at herself in the mirror?

I'm sorry, but thinking that Hillary Clinton prefers McCain to Obama is GOPUSA spin.

It's just not sensical.

Even if it WERE true, it wouldn't be enough to prevent ME from preferring HER over McCain.

I think it's very high school and immature to be so largely embittered over such a small piece of pap.

There are legitimate and good reasons to bash the Clintons. Her ties to corporations is surely one, but again, I don't see too much difference between them there. Obama has a lot of "bundlers" his ownself.

Certainly not so large a difference to stay home. As you say, I think it's a 99% probability that Obama will be the nominee. My concern is that if one dubiously spun comment is all it takes for people to drop the Clintons like a hot potato and forget any and all good they did manage to do, then it won't take much for these same people to become disillusioned over Obama, and I'm pretty sure the GOP won't hold back.

Maybe people need to take a deep breath and stand back a bit.

Jon/Workerbee

Your arguments have merit and I will keep them in mind as things progress. But just yesterday, Bill was at it again with his dog whistle comments that we should be glad Obama isn't "stealing cars". I wonder how the Clintons would react if Obama started referring to Bill "checking out the young ladies in Hillary's campaign". Think about it.

Jon- Democrats may have rallied behind Bill during impeachment, and I certainly did, although I was and am still deeply disappointed that he allowed himself to be that vulnerable. And I'm not talking about his private behavior but rather falling into the trap of denying it under oath, thereby creating a legal vulnerability. What saved Bill was that the economy had been good and most people didn't think even his legal transgressions amounted to "high crimes......". But it was a close vote and he came close to conviction. Al Gore distanced himself for sound political reasons and you may think that was a mistake but I think he would have done even worse if he had embraced Bill. One could argue that he simply wasn't able to distance himself enough to convince those swing voters that he wasn't guilty by proximity. And of course the MSM played their part in reinforcing that perception.

But swing voters were largely turned off by the whole spectacle and we have to understand that those button pushing issues have much more impact on undecided voters who have no party loyalty and can go either way for often arbitrary reasons. So you can convince yourself that Gore's loss had nothing to do with negative perceptions of Bill, but I know better.

I worked many hours in TN doing door to door canvasing for Gore, and last time went from TN to Fl for Kerry (knowing TN was hopeless), pounding the pavement for days. So I have some direct experience hearing ordinary citizens express their opinions. And I can tell you that the main reason Al Gore did not win his home state was distrust of him based on his connection with Bill who was, and still is, considered a liar. And Hillary, first by association, and now by her own behavior, has reinforced that perception.

Sure, if Gore had all his votes counted in FL, he would have won the electoral college and this would be a different world. But winning your home state that you represented for many years should have been easy.

My point is that the increasing negativity of the Clinton campaign is again turning off these independant voters to Democrats again. It might not matter in solidly blue states, but in swing states, all Hillary can do is succeed in convincing potential Obama voters that he can't be trusted with the reins of power. She already has too many negatives to win them herself. Even if every loyal Democrat voted for Hillary, that would only get her 40% or less. So it's really the Clinton's campaign tactics that are making it possible for McCain to win.