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Are You Experienced?

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In recent days, compelling evidence that the Clinton campaign can move quickly and decisively to outmaneuver Barack Obama on NAFTA have made me reconsider my allegiances in this election. I don’t think there’s a great deal of difference between Clinton and Obama on NAFTA, actually, and even the Joseph DeMora memo, which the Clinton camp is treating as some kind of smoking gun, suggests as much:

On NAFTA, Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more in favour of strengthening/clarifying language on labour mobility and environment and trying to establish these as more "core" principles of the agreement.

That's pretty much where Clinton stands, as well. But because this memo’s botched description of an unofficial conversation between an Obama adviser and a low-level consulate official has been transformed by the Clinton campaign into proof positive that Obama is all (duplicitous) talk and no action, I’m now convinced that the Clinton campaign has the vital experience necessary to pull off an effective “kitchen sink” attack on a progressive Democrat. That’s precisely the kind of experience that the new president will need in 2009 and beyond in order to triangulate with American and Canadian conservatives to marginalize dangerous, charismatic, and naive challengers who step out of line or try to jump the queue.

And more important, as Hillary indicated yesterday, she is willing to reach across the aisle and salute the experience of key Republicans in order to forge a bipartisan coalition to win the White House in 2008:

I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. Senator John McCain has a lifetime of experience that he'd bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002.

I don’t know what that 2002 speech was about, but apparently it wasn’t very important.

There’s just one problem with that Los Angeles Times version of Clinton's remarks. As this video clip makes clear, Clinton didn’t say that McCain “has a lifetime of experience that he’d bring to the White House.” She said "I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House.” The verb is in the indicative mood, not the subjunctive, and mood matters, people: Hillary Clinton is saying that she will go to the White House, and so will John McCain, and they’ll both bring their lifetimes of experience.

And that’s why I’m announcing today that I’ve decided to throw my support to the McCain/Clinton Unity ‘08 ticket. One hundred more years! One hundred more years!

I call it the triumph of experience over hope.


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Senator Hillary Clinton picks John McCain over Senator Obama, for President. I guess she will not be looking for any support from those who have voted for Senator Obama. Watch her disparage a fellow Democrat, and praise the Republican.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4JnWQsxKw&eurl=http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Clinton_on_Obama_and_McCain.html

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She's now got Rush Limbaugh backing her as well. Maybe she can hire Karl Rove next. And Dick Cheney would make an excellent VP, don't you think?

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Cheney certainly has the necessary experience! A lifetime's worth, I'd say.

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How is the "botched memo" a reflection on Obama's experience or lack of experience? It was written by someone with the Canadian consulate, not someone from the Obama camp.

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Indeed, that is central to my point.

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How do you know it's botched?

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I read the Nedra Pickler (!) AP report to which I linked.

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I read it too, and it doesn't offer any proof whatsoever that the memo is botched. Are you claiming that the aide submitted a false report?

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I'm saying I find Goolsbee's explanation of his actual remarks to be quite convincing: he said Obama would seek to shore up the labor and environmental provisions of the agreement rather than scrap the whole thing. And I note that "the Obama campaign and the Canadian embassy denied there was any inconsistency between what the candidate was saying publicly and what advisers were saying privately." So much for Hillary's suggestion that a "wink, wink" was involved -- which, again, makes no damn sense anyway, since her position on NAFTA is (at present) nearly identical to Obama's.

I'm also saying that I find the collusion between Canadian conservatives and American conservatives on this flap -- and Clinton's willingness to exploit that as an opening -- very very odious. And by "odious," of course, I mean "admirable." Go McCain/Clinton!

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All of this proves Obama is the more experienced winker, which trumps any NAFTA considerations. You might wants to reconsider?

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This is really getting stupid. If the Obama campaign had this kind of memo about Clinton he'd be using it too.

First of all, there is absolutely no reason to think that a Canadian diplomat would mislead or mischaracterize any position held the candidate. Not only would that be career suicide on the part of the diplomat, it could have serious repercussions in later talks and negotiations.

Secondly, Goolsbee claims that the memo is accurate in all but the one comment, which is completely illogical. Why would the Canadian consulate mislead their government on the most important point in the memo and yet accurately portray all the other comments that Goolsbee made? It doesn't make sense.

Thirdly, instead of getting out ahead of the story, the Obama campaign tried to parse the wording of the article denying that a meeting took place between the campaign and the embassy and then spent the next four days trying to spin the story as inaccurate. That was just dumb and the Obama camp handled this in exactly the same way campaigns have always handled this kind of situation - deny, parse, claim it isn't accurate. The campaign made a mistake, it's not the first time and it's not going to be the last, because campaigns are made up of people and people make mistakes.

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But that was my point, BevD. The Obama camp screwed up its response to the initial story, the Clinton camp pounced, and hey -- that's experience for you.

McCain/ Clinton: Because There Is No Hope.

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I happen to like Hillary Clinton and I happen to like Obama. They'd both make good presidents, and your McCain/Clinton slogan is a dumb mistake. All you're going to do is stir up shit.

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Don't be shootin' the messenger, now. I didn't go and tell Hillary Clinton to praise John McCain at the expense of Obama.

I liked Hillary up until two months ago, and I was willing to defend her from unhinged sexist attacks right into February. But if she wants to campaign for McCain, that's her business. I'm done.

I would be truly surprised to discover you actually think Clinton would prefer McCain over Obama in the general election. That she would campaign for him.

If that is not the case then yes we have to be honest about her remarks about McCain. They were utterly stupid. A real mistake. I suspect born of frustration and desperation in a very long, heated campaign for the highest office in the land. No excuse...just sayin'.

So the fact that you will now not bother to defend her against unhinged sexist attacks because of this stupid mistake suggests an overly emotional response, a truly unusual thing for you.

But then, maybe it is the former situation. Maybe you actually think she would prefer John McCain over Obama.

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OK, then, I'll say this. When Senator Clinton apologizes for those remarks about McCain's experience and Obama's speech, and then rejects them and denounces them too, then I'll get around to defending her from sexist attacks. I think (and have always thought) that she has taken a vile amount of abuse from right-wing lunatics and their enablers in the mainstream press, but right now I think I'll just leave her defense to somebody else.

Michael
A little lithium is my suggestion.

The fact of the matter is that McCain DOES have more formal experience in politics than Obama AND Clinton for that matter. Goes to show that “experience” is not the end-al l criterion for a good leader. Look at the Romam Emperors as Gibbon presents them. Perhaps she should not have pointed out this FACT but where I come from (which is not the English Department) it is unseemly to apologize for blurting out a truth. It seems that this must have hit a raw nerve with you and I regret that Michael. I know you are a fervent Obama supporter, and I'm willing to support him 100% too if it comes to that, but let’s calm down here ok?

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the comment wasn't directed at me, but I actually DO think she'd prefer mccain over obama.

Obama's nomination would be a repudiation of the clintons. mccain's would not be, in that same way.

and a mccain election would let her run again in 4 years.

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You keep delivering the wrong message, Adidas, and somebody's going to put an arrow in your ass. So what if she did use McCain to zing Obama? Obama had no compunctions about using Reagan to zing the dems and the repubs to zing Clinton. Both of them should knock it off.

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Hey!

It's the last days of the campaign; they're stirring the bottom of the barrel -- looking for that guy on "60 Minutes" who'd like to vote for Obama except he's heard Obama's a Muslim and doesn't know all the words to the national anthem. NAFTA in Canada may just be the straw that breaks that camel's back.

Give her a break, why dontcha!

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Give her a break, why dontcha!
Why? Is she giving anybody else a break? She's running an increasingly negative, dirty and divisive campaign. I think she should give the party a break.
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Brilliant.

The memo IS a smoking gun. Just the fact that there was any kind of conversation between the Obama camp and the Canadians on NAFTA in the context of the Ohio debate is utterly damning. What Obama had to say in Ohio should have been good enough for the Canadians or anyone else who cared to listen in.
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Look, Obama is a deeply compromised pol and has been from day one. Read the NYT's story on Obama and Tony Rezko, a rotten relationship that lasted years at a time when everyone in Illinois knew that Rezko was absolutely radioactive. This stuff has been reported in the Chicago press for months. Wake up.
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Chicago and Illinois politics are deeply, deeply corrupt, and Obama is purely a product of this system. I wish it weren't the case. I wish we had clean government here, or--failing that--that the corruption was Republican rather than Democratic. But here we are, trapped in a filthy, mobbed-up system, helpless to do anything about it.
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Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of enthusiastic support for Obama in Chicago, the hometown guy. Partly, though, this is a function of race (not exactly a healthy thing, if you ask me), and partly it's a function of people's hopelessness, the sense that we'll never emerge from the dungeon so we may as well root for our favorite captors.
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I do wish, though, that folks on the outside would pay some attention. I know how difficult that must be for progressives, who'd rather not point out the inconvenient fact that the Chicago machine--a reliable source of Democratic votes in national elections--is so dirty. If the national press would just hold up a mirror, maybe we could embarrass these characters out of office.

You would make an excellent republican.

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I suspect the former corvid, here.

Another incovenient fact is that all local politics is as messy as national politics, and Senator Clinton surely can't claim remarkably clean hands.

No, I'm actually quite progressive. But I get accused of being a Republican a lot, especially by people who obviously have no actual response to the substance of what I'm saying. Please read the following:
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http://www.beachwoodreporter.com/politics/trade_and_tony.php

Sorry, that first reply was intended for whoffman, who accuses me of being Republican. I'm still adjusting to the mechanics of the new tpm site.
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Actually, I agree with you about Sen. Clinton. But not all local politics are as rotten as what we have in Chicago and Illinois. I've lived in Minneapolis, which has really clean local pols, at least by comparison, and in California, where the state legislature is a helluva lot cleaner than Illinois'.
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And right next door here we have Wisconsin, which is a paragon, toward which we Illinois Democrats and independents look enviously.
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What distinguishes Obama is the fact that he and his adoring public portray him as some kind of big change from politics as usual--at least moreso than other candidates. That's simply not true. And I'd go further to say than he's a bit more soiled than most, especially given his relatively brief experience.

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Point taken. That memo decisively proves that Professor Goolsbee spoke in an unofficial capacity to people from the Canadian consulate in Chicago. Let's just hope that the next time, the smoking gun won't be a mushroom cloud.

But I lived in Illinois for 12 years, CRVD, and I know precisely what you're talking about. It's a swamp of corruption. Rezko, Farrakhan -- there are so many unanswered questions about Obama's past, and we just can't afford a Chicago machine politician as the nominee. That's why I think we need absolutely squeaky-clean candidates like Hillary Clinton and John McCain, who have no unsavory ties to anybody.

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Chicago and Illinois politics are deeply, deeply corrupt, and Obama is purely a product of this system. I wish it weren't the case.

Yeah.

And what's Dick Durbin got hiding up his slimy, corruptable sleeve?

Isn't it time we banned Illinois from sending *anyone* to the Senate?

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Michael,

you don't have enough experience to write on this subject.

I hope our party leaders recognize the damage she will do over the next two months. Based on Richardson's latest comments I suspect he sees it. Probably Edwards will jump in soon as well. I expect she'll keep up the attack and drive Gore from Sweden as well.

I wish i could edit like Greg. Switzerland not Sweden.

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I believe that Sweden doesn't have an army.

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"I believe that Sweden doesn't have an army."

Maybe, but they have some guys in uniform that guard the King's palace on Gamla Stan in Stockholm. I've seen them and they did have guns, I think. Could that be considered an army?

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They have an army - the problem is they just don't care.

Jimi Hendrix was the original post-partisan:

If you can just get your mind together
Then come on across to me
We'll hold hands and then we'll
watch the sunrise
from the bottom of the sea
But first, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Well, I have

I don't know about you, but I like the idea of watching the sunrise from the bottom of the sea. If only our politicians could get beyond partisan politics and embrace this reality.

No one imagines Hillary and McCain are squeaky clean, far from it. All I'm saying is that Obama is no better and quite probably a bit worse than the others, even though his chief sales pitch is that he's somehow an agent of change. This obviously isn't the case, as anyone who takes an honest 5 minutes and looks into his background will see.
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So, we're in happy agreement on that much, right, Michael? Good, then we're all squared away here.

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No, because you forgot about Farrakhan. C'mon, there's at least as much Obama-Farrakhan dirt as there is Obama-Rezko. We just have to try harder.

Also, I'm very concerned about all those parking tickets Obama didn't pay for all those years.

I asked this on another thread...what exactly is the accusation against Obama with regards to Rezko? This appears to be Whitewater part 2. All smoke, no fire.

I guess we'll have to call it the "Illinois Project." Brought to you by Hillary Clinton.

How long until we hear about Obama dealing drugs from O-Hare? Or fathering an illegitimate child? Or even better, the Obama body count...I can't wait for that one!

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The hell with politics - wasn't the last season of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" one of the best written comedy series of all time? Without a doubt Larry David is the master of the big build, isn't he? He set up the gag in the first episode and then played it out until the very end and I mean the end of the series. Any other comedy writer would be tempted to overplay it or give it away too soon, but David has the patience and the talent to let a little line out and then reel us back in, let a little more line out and reel back in with the big payoff at the end.

His visuals are masterpieces too - The doctor's living room was priceless as was the cemetery with the barbed wire enclosing it. The only other writers who even approach David's skill are Ricky Gervais and Steve Merchant, but Gervais still can't let his character remain selfishly human to the end. He has to put some kind of redeeming virtue in play, which is okay, but it made the ends of the series predictable. David doesn't do that though, he has a knack for keeping his characters in character - David remains so consistently selfishly neurotic that surprisingly when he does just what he would predictably do, you're caught off guard. You can't imagine anyone so lacking in boundaries and filters that he could continue along the same path. The viewer expects him to have some limit, any kind of limit and pull back at the moment of truth - but he can't. And that is what makes it so funny. Would you not agree?

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No.

Nice. And it's supposedly the Obama supporters who live in a fantasy land...and don't want to face facts.

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Well you've already said "Rhoda" is your all time favorite sitcom. I didn't expect YOU to agree.

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I can't make sense of this "scandal" for the life of me. Why would Obama, before he's even the nominee, open discussion with Canada? Is he looking for Canadian votes? The whole pretext seems utterly shammy. If someone could explain to me why they think Obama is supposed to have begun talking with Canadian representives, that would be amazing.

Berube clearly doesn't understand the difference between soil that has been depleted of nutrients by over-cultivation (dirt of clinton), and virgin soil that holds the promise of abundant harvests for seasons to come (dirt on Obama).

And while he may be from Chicago, and has already heard all the dirt on Obama, guess what Mike? The rest of the country isn't Chicago.

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That's an important distinction, Friend-O, and I do grasp it. In an earlier post, I described it as the difference between a candidate who has been badly damaged and a candidate who might yet be. But honestly, I don't consider this a very good argument for Clinton: the hate campaign against her is already well-established!

The rest of the country isn't Chicago.


And as someone that has lived in Chicago for a number of years, that's a darn shame.

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"The rest of the country isn't Chicago."

I believe the cynical, wind-worn, world-weary, dare-I-say... experienced choice of a negative, present-tense verb is "ain't" - you almost had me!

You, sir, are no Raymond Chandler! Or Jack Kennedy!

Now that's the kind of witty and provocative analysis I would expect from a fan of Jacques Derrida. Well played, sir, well played indeed.

Michael
My suggestion is that you take a slightly more detached view of things.

The fact of the matter is that McCain DOES have more formal experience in politics than Obama AND Clinton for that matter. Goes to show that “experience” is not the end-al l criterion for a good leader. Look at the Romam Emperors as Gibbon presents them. Perhaps she should not have pointed out this FACT but where I come from (which is not the English Department) it is unseemly to apologize for blurting out a truth. It seems that this must have hit a raw nerve with you and I regret that Michael. I know you are a fervent Obama supporter, and I'm willing to support him 100% too if it comes to that, but let’s calm down here ok?

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Andrew, I assure you that I am completely detached. But thanks again for explaining, however unwittingly, how the logic of Senator Clinton's campaign supports McCain '08. Just one thing -- whenever Clinton gets around to arguing that "'experience'is not the end-all criterion for a good leader," would you let me know? Thanks so much.

Not unwitting at all. It was intentional. Of course here claim that her experience should trump any virtue that Obama might have is just as much malarkey as his claiming that he is going to transform human nature itself (although the latter strikes me as a cultish claim while the former is just run of the mill boilerplate). Remember Michael, this is politics; they are not in a colloquium on political philosophy. They are talking to impressionable people, unlike yourself who claims to be "completely detached" from it all. hmmmm.

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his claiming that he is going to transform human nature itself

Could you provide a citation for that, Andrew? I know you know what a "citation" is.

Point taken, Obama is careful enough NOT to explicitly make that claim, but he sure as hell makes people believe that's what he is saying. Just as Bush has made people believe that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9-11 while never actually saying it. See Michael, politics in not for queasy stomachs. In many ways it is an art of mass deception.

When I talk to my students about their enthusiasm for Obama many tell me it is precisely the hope he gives people of transforming "politics as it has always been played[sic] in Washington" that attracts these youthful minds. Far be it for me to discourage that hope.

I'm an incrementalist. Hillary is too. Obama is just not to my taste in politicking. Let's leave it at that.

Michael:

Great commnetary, but explain to us the verb tense mood difference. I think you're on to something here...

Michael
What I don't get about you is this: you say you know Chicago politics and how corrupt it is. You don't deny that Obama is not some sort of "exception". Fair eough.

So Obama plays "hardball" politics, Chicago style. The problem is his choice of public personae is this "clean as a whistle, transcendent, unifying, problem solver" and then--as was inevitable--all his shady deals come out. It is a big fall.

Hillary never pretended to be "Ms Tammy Wynette". Her public personae has been one of a hard working problem solver and she has more or less lived up to that characterization. Fair or unfair, the public is feeling a little let down by Obama’s faux
saintliness. It does start to look like “cheap talk”

One thing is certain Hillary can play hard ball with the best of the guys and she has proved it. Good for her. She never claimed--like Obama--that she was as pure as the driven snow, so she is not—unlike Obama-- beholden to “play nice”.

You are infuriated that THAT WOMAN would say such a thing (re: experience less than McCain). Hey stick to literature then, this is politics. I think it is a hoot myself

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And you should stick to philosophy, Andrew. Because when you talk politics, you sound like a weird mashup of Republican talking points.

And no, I didn't say that I believed Obama was corrupt; I said I was familiar with Illinois politics and I don't believe that all Illinois politicians are unfit to serve. And though I'm a pretty hard-bitten, cynical guy, I have to say I'm stunned every time a Clinton supporter clutches his or her pearls and talks about Obama's "shady deals." I think you're profoundly in denial about how badly damaged your candidate is in the public eye: if she's the nominee, the media will go right back to the full-bore Whitewater-commodities futures-Rose Law-Travelgate-Vince Foster craziness we endured in the 90s. And you, apparently, will think it's a hoot.

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Michael Bérubé completely misses the point.

The amendments that have been suggested, basically modifying trade agreements to factor in the environment, labor standards, and other specific protections under the unbrella of "fair trade" are the same amendments now as were amendments suggested in the 90's when NAFTA was being discussed in the first place.

The difference is the Clintons ignored the warnings and derided the critics for suggesting such amendments would be necessary, because according to the Clintons the magic of free markets didn't require such protections for labor or the environment. Had it not been for the ideological blindness of the Clintons, along with surrogates like Paul Krugman, we could have had a North American FAIR Trade Agreement passed in the 90s and not have lost tens of thousands of jobs and seen such tremendous worker exploitation and environmental pollution.

The question is: how many times can the Clintons fool people? They were supposedly well intentioned and pro-labor and pro-environment then too. Only they weren't.

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Michael Bérubé completely misses the point.

Right. And since I believe that Clinton is no better than Obama on NAFTA, and is effectively (in both senses of the word) lying about her position and his, what precisely did you imagine my point to be?

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what precisely did you imagine my point to be?

now there's a trick question if I ever heard one....have you not already remarked above the many tragic displays of irony deficiency *amemia? At long last, sir, have you no compassion??

*(the absence of "memes", a foundation is in formation, your donations welcome)

I call it the triumph of experience over hope.

Are you by any chance married to John Benson?

I just KNEW this joke was too obscure.

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I just wanna know how it is that Clinton gets to claim 25 years of experience, gets to count trips made to 80 foreign countries as First Lady as some kind of diplomatic undergirding.

And then gets to act as NAFTA was implemented by Reagan. If she's gonna run on Bill's administration's record, then she has to defend NAFTA. And she's gotta say why, this time, it doesn't count--even though the way the bill got passed was doing what she criticizes Obama for naively talking about doing, finding common ground with republicans.

I do not see how this remains a winning issue for her. She can't pull this one off again too late in the press cycle for Obama to respond.

Dear Michael

you imply that; (A) I said that you believe that Obama is corrupt. I said (B) "You don't deny that Obama is an exception [to Chicago style Democratic politics].” There is a difference. B does not imply A. Not denying that Obama is an exception, which you don't, leaves it open what in fact you actually think about Obama vis-à-vis his corruptness or lack thereof.

Here is a valid deduction
1) All successful politicians are corrupt to some degree or other
2) Barack Obama is a politician:
_______________________________________________

Therefore: Barack Obama is corrupt to one degree or another.

Granted that's cynical. Maybe 1) is false.

I'm actually more a Marxist than anything else. Maybe neo-Marxist, or post Marxist . Something on the line with Rawls, hardly a Conservative thinker. I much rather see a deconstruction of the Capitalist system than to conserve it in all its corrupt purity

I have no illusions about Hillary. Your allusion to my clutching at her pearls evokes the old casting pearls before swine. Not sure who the swine is in your scenario.

I actually enjoy crossing swords with you. You’ve got balls.

This was written AFTER the triple win of Hillary on Tuesday and my advice to Obama is to stiffen his spine a bit and offer an effective rejoinder. This whining about how "evil" that woman is and such just does not cut it with us post-sexist males.

erratum
B) should read "you don't deny that Obama is not an exception"...sorry

The tragedy of overinflated "hope" is that it always leads to disappointment. Like Sisyphus, the legitimate struggle for a better way trapped in an eternal cycle of hope and disappointment. That's why the Obamas of the world are dangerous and bad for us.

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