Do Religious Conservatives Deserve the Soft Bigotry of Our Low Expectations?

Is America beginning a new post-Religious Right era—and are religious conservatives, white evangelicals in particular, becoming more “moderate” (or even mirabile dictu, “liberal”)? Those seem to me the two central claims of EJ Dionne’s latest book, Souled Out , which I highly recommend—but with which I’m afraid I disagree.
What’s happening instead, in my view, is the following:
First, political conservatives across-the-board are on the defensive--and retrenching--nowadays. The reasons for this have primarily to do with the “big issues” of public life—their mishandling of the war and the economy, as well as corruption (Abramoff, Delay) and incompetence (FEMA, Rumsfeld)—not religion. It has also produced some recent moments that suggest that flying saucers have indeed landed in Roswell: Karl Rove offering his unsolicited advice to Barack Obama on how to win; Newt Gingrich calling for greater bipartisanship; Michael Gerson discovering Catholic social justice teachings.
The way the GOP so long insisted they were the only party of and for “the religious” (using their definition of "religious") does have some part to play, particularly because President Bush has been so belligerent about its place in his life and so reckless about its role in his decision-making. Whatever weight its is, it’s fairly clear that the Bush presidency’s failure—measured by approval ratings consistently below 30% nowadays—has clearly helped ruin the long-runnning popular Mainstream Press narrative about “the great size and rising power of evangelical conservatives” and of an enormous, unified “religious right” more generally.
Second, the best-known media-based Christian Right groups of the 1980s and 1990s—the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, Promisekeepers, Family Research Council, etc.—are either gone, or vastly reduced in size and influence. From Carter through Clinton, they parlayed themselves from a small base known through their cable TV shows, through their noisy presence in Washington (and for a time state and local politics) into what Washington politicians and press told themselves (and then the rest of us) was The Leadership and The Voice of a huge, alienated, and very angry “Religious America.”
Third, in retrospect, these TV Christian Rightists clearly were self-promoters of a religious minority, than a majority. They moreover were less leaders of that minority than surfers on an authentic wave—not of a broad, national “new, conservative, religious” America but of an old and well-established minority bloc of conservative voters. Those voters were mainly white Southern evangelicals who for a century had voted Democratic because Abe Lincoln was a Republican--and who became Republican only because Martin Luther King and LBJ led non-Southern Democrats (and a few now-extinct moderate Republicans) to desegregate the Old Confederacy forty years ago. The Southern evangelicals are such a distinct minority among a broader national minority of religious conservatives, however, that conservative Catholics, Mainline Protestants, and Jews never joined the Moral Majority or Christian Coalition—even when they shared ideology and voting behavior on some issues—which contributed to the groups’ demise.
The TV Christians, however--despite their ultimate institutional failure (though not personal failure: Falwell and Robertson became multimillionaires)---did fabricate three great falsehoods that we are still debating today:
1) That Evangelicals Protestants are a near-majority of the country, and in concert with conservative Catholics and Jews, are indeed a majority, albeit now uncertain and confused about how best to exercise their majority rights;
2) That an anti-religious minority—“secular humanists” or just “liberals” the preferred epithets—has for too long controlled most elite institutions (including the Democratic Party, the federal courts, the universities, and the mainstream press)--and that the SHs have been forcing their agenda on the majority;
3) That the Republican Party would—if enough religious conservatives voted for it—save America from the secular humanists.
In fact, white evangelical Protestants have never come close to being an American majority. For over half a century in fact they’ve made up only a quarter of the US population—with over three-quarters of them living in in just two regions, the South and Midwest . The rest of the often-cited “forty percent” of Americans who are“born-again” are African-Americans (or a growing minority of Hispanics) who are evangelicals and generally Democrats—and in many cases are furious with the white TV Christian crowd, despite a shared faith.
The other important feature about this noisy conservative white evangelical minority is that—contrary to their own claims, and the Mainstream Press’s careless repetition—they’ve never been a "fast-growing" percentage of the US population. Their power, rather, derived from the fact that they switched parties, which gave Republicans a big bloc of new safe seats in Congress (and later state houses and legislatures). They felt neglected and abused by their Democratic first husband, and started fooling around with the rich Republican. But now they're married to the GOP, and they're surprised that the romance has gone away?
In fact, the enmity the TV Christians have generated among other Americans has produced an important and overlooked backlash. Pew polls find, for example, that just one religious group in America now expresses a "favorable" view of "the Christian conservative movement": white evangelical Protestants.
Most polls show that, rather than fostering greater religiosity, the rise of the Religious Right has produced an astounding consequence: the fastest-growing “religious” group in America for the last decade has been the non-religious---millions of men and women, most of them raised in religious families who for one reason or other had stopped practicing their faiths. But thanks to the overreaching claims of the Religious Right, they’ve “come out” in opposition to its narrowness and intolerance by rejecting any relationship with organized faith whatsoever. If the non-religious keep growing at current rates, the polls indicate, they will actually outnumber white evangelicals within the next five to ten years.
In the midst of this backlash against faith, however, a separate new narrative—one also opposed to this Religious Right--has appeared; its goal, however, is to “rescue” American religion from the hands of its most extreme practitioners. This is the narrative in which EJ has played a prominent role for nearly a decade as head of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, as have Jim Wallis, Alan Wolfe, Ron Sider, Amy Sullivan, and many other good friends. (Disclosure: I’ve played a modest supporting role, both in my writing and teaching on religion and politics at Harvard, and in my work with varioius liberal Mainline Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and secular civil liberties groups.)
This new counter-narrative has been making two big points. The first is that “American religion” encompasses far more than conservative evangelicals or conservative political worldview more generally. The second is that even among conservative evangelicals there’s a Great Awakening underway—and it’s generating a growing support for moderate, even liberal, positions on a host of issues.
All this is in part an attempt to blunt the frankly inane and willfully ignorant idea—popularized by so-called New Atheists such as Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and my old friend Chris Hitchens—that all religion is always fundamentally conservative and anti-rational. (Harris, in particular, as he berates religious progressives for "accomodating" the existence of religious reactionaries, reminds me of Senator McCarthy. I suspect he has a list, with Falwell’s name followed by Niebuhr’s, that to him proves their association.)
I must admit that I find myself, on one level, embarrassed to be arguing that religion isn’t consistently reactionary and anti-rational simply because the American historical record is so clear why both the Religious Right and New Atheists are wrong. Think of abolition, suffrage, and the labor movements in the 19th century (all of them deeply framed by and infused with religion: try for example to hear “Amazing Grace” or “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” as secular melodies). Or try to imagine the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s if Martin Luther King had been a professor instead of a preacher. (My own Mainline Protestantism taught me this tradition as gospel; when a secular friend once joked that I thought the Holy Trinity was “Father, Son, and Franklin Roosevelt,” I didn’t get what the joke was.)
My task as a Mainliner reminding fellow Mainliners of our progressive traditions is made easier by the fact that Mainline Protestantism in general has been supported and often led the way on a broad range of very non-Religious Right positions, dating back to the Social Gospel in the late 19th century and abolition before the Civil War.
At the height of the media’s preoccupation with Falwell and Robertson, my own Episcopal Church, for example, not only moved forward to ordain openly-gay clergy, but more recently has elected a woman as its presiding bishop--and she is now refocusing the denomination's considerable institutional energies on advancing the Millenium Development Goals to help lead a massive and immediate reduction in global poverty rather than letting the Religious Right continue to define abortion, homosexuality, stem cells, and Terry Schiavo as the “values” questions religious Americans are required to debate. “Enough already” seems to be the Mainliners’ new motto.
For EJ, a progressive Catholic, the struggle is somewhat different. He can proudly draw on 20th century Catholicism’s social justice teaching to emphasize why Catholics should focus on poverty rather than sex, gays, and abortion. But since Vatican II, he also knows that the institutional church hasn’t been pulling hard in his direction. Conservative bishops want to deny communion to politicians who defend a woman’s right to choose; none has yet withheld the sacraments from a politician who won’t raise the minimum wage.
Conservative leaders blunting progressive theology isn't the only problem: the American Catholic Church is losing active members much faster than Mainline Protestants (who lost a quarter of their members in the 1960s and 1970s, but who’ve been generally stable or growing in the past fifteen years.) Three out of four Catholics went to Mass weekly in the 1950s; today fewer than a third go. In other words, there may officially be 60 million Catholics in America today , but 40 million aren’t practicing their faith. (And the empty pew problem is exacerbated by an empty pulpit: today there are just 4,000 Catholics men studying for the priesthood; forty years ago there were 40,000.)
For white evangelicals like Jim Wallis or Ron Sider or Brian McLaren who want their coreligionists to be less reactionary, the challenge, in my opinion, is even more daunting: Mainliners and Catholics in general tilt Democratic these days; white evangelicals vote Republican three-to-one, a ratio that’s been rising for the last 30 years. Wallis and the others claim to see a new Great Awakening underway--it's the title of Wallis's latest book--with a major shift in their ranks to a new progressivism. The Mainstream Press loves their story, and now points to examples like Richard Cizik and the NAE’s recognition of global warming, the “new evangelicalism” of Rick Warren, poll data that shows young evangelicals’ declining support for the GOP, etc.
But parse any of these claims carefully, and none looks much like a radical Great Awakening. Instead, they remind many of us who are old enough of the shift that white evangelicals went through in the 1950s, when an earlier generation of “new evangelicals” such as Billy Graham were thought to herald the death of an older conservative and often vitriolic fundamentalism, that had once been openly anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and unapologetically racist. But how progressive was Graham? Few today know about Graham’s silence in the 1960s on civil rights—he never publicly supported Martin Luther King, or condemned George Wallace or the violence in Selma or Montgomery; in the midst of the Vietnam War he went to Vietnam at LBJ's request, and came back to support LBJ's expansion of the war; he brought Richard Nixon to his revivals to speak before evangelicals (who disliked Republicans, but were coming to hate Democrats more)---and then of course on tape was caught sharing his anti-Semitic biases with Nixon in the White House.
While that was then and this is now, consider the current claims made for a kinder, gentler “compassionate evangelicalism” today. What, for example, exactly are these Great Awakeners ready to do about the problems of the environment and global poverty? Have Richard Cizik and the NAE been calling for government-mandated fuel efficiency standards or higher gasoline taxes or required production of hybrid vehicles? Has Rick Warren, who has “embraced” the problem of global poverty, told us how he’s going to solve it?
He has apparently decided how he's not going to solve it. Here’s Warren two weeks ago rebuking a conservative columnist who called Warren a “statist like Jim Wallis” (Wallis—because he actually votes for Democrats, is married to an Anglican priest, and was raised in a Northern evangelical denomination—is still treated like a leper by the most of his ostensibly “new evangelical” colleagues):
“Actually, I completely disagree with Jim Wallis’s big government approach to poverty," Warren wrote. "The answer is not aid, but trade, not subsidies but freer markets, not wealth redistribution but wealth creation. not the government but local congregations. Saddleback’s P.E.A.C.E. plan is the exact opposite of outdated and ineffective liberal social government programs that have failed.
"We believe the answer is the Church, not bigger government.
"People who have studied our program know it is the exact opposite of Jim Wallis’ program. I’d appreciate you making this distinction and correction."
Warren then adds this:
"The great thing out of all of this is that I discovered the Von Mises website! Peter Drucker was my personal mentor for 20 years, right up to his death. Drucker introduced me to Hayek who obviously led me to Von Mises. Of course you know Von Mises said 'Human action is purposeful behavior.' I’d call that a purpose driven life!"
Frankly I’m hard-pressed to see what’s so “new” or “transformative” about this sort of evangelical talk, or why Rick Warren is being celebrated as a “new voice" among white evangelicals. I think it's terrific that, unlike Falwell and Robertson, he doesn’t blame gays, feminists, and the ACLU for 9/11 (although the McCain campaign is edging toward blaming the Democrats for "losing Iraq") and that he refrains from calling Islam, as Franklin Graham (Billy Graham's son and head of Samaritan's Purse) did, "a very wicked and evil religion." This is very good.
But does Warren really believe that “the churches” rather than “the government” will, for example, come up with the $500 billion or so that will be eventually needed to rebuild New Orleans post-Katrina? Does he really plan to take his PEACE program to Africa—and cure poverty by using the same principles as the now utterly-discredited Washington Consensus, which the World Bank and IMF now admit was a disastrous failure that led to a "lost decade of development"?
Does Warren seriously believe that Saddleback or Habitat for Humanity rather than the FHA and Fannie Mae can build enough housing to shelter those in need? Does he honestly think that wealth redistribution is not an issue, now that America has the most unequal wealth and income distribution in the Western world or in its own modern history? And how precisely will more Wal-marts and Chinese imports make up for the export of high-wage, high-skill jobs from America ? (Ludwig von Mise and Friederick Hayek, whom Warren is praising here, were two of the most reactionary economists of the 20th century, heroes to Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of economics. These are the policy mentors of the “new” evangelicals like Warren?)
Even the much-vaunted rise of young evangelicals’ disillusionment with the GOP—according to Pew’s recent polls—turns out to be anything but a sharp turn away from conservatism. Young evangelicals began the Bush years as stronger GOP supporters than their parents, according to Pew; all evangelicals have declined in their support of Bush—but consistently are much more supportive than the rest of the country; young evangelicals are in greater numbers telling pollsters that they’re independent that Republican---but almost none are moving to become Democrats or call themselves liberal. And most evangelicals, young and old, remain active supporters of the death penalty, opposed to abortion, and while more “concerned” about poverty, AIDs and the like than in the past, are remarkably unclear on what exactly should be done to solve those problems.
So, conclusion: in Souled Out, EJ Dionne has given us a book, tightly argued, well-researched, and skillfully writen—that is too optimistic, in my view, in its assessment of how America’s religious and political landscape is changing because it is too kind to the very men and women who for too long have listened to the wrong prophets, prayed the wrong prayers, and worshipped at the wrong altars.....
If we really want to practice our own faith as both serpents and doves, we mustn’t overlook their errors too easily, given no sign that they're guarding against error in new forms. We mustn't excuse them--and the great damage they’ve done--by the soft bigotry of our low expectations.













Comments (32)
A few years ago I said to a friend of mine; "In a few years the right wing Christians will be at war with the right wing Capitalists."
February 15, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The answer is not aid, but trade, not subsidies but freer markets, not wealth redistribution but wealth creation. not the government but local congregations."
This is also called the Prosperity Gospel. Warren is a less smarmy (and less criminal)version of Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn and other guys who tell followers that they'll get a rich life through their faith in his brand of religion.
February 15, 2008 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might want to check your facts before you accuse Rick Warren of teaching a "prosperity gospel". He does not take a salary from Saddleback Church and has paid back everything he was paid from the time the church started. Also, he now gives 90% of his income from his books and other sources to the church. Those who teach the "prosperity gospel" teach that you should make a lot of money and buy nice things and live in luxury, because that is evidence of God's blessing. That is actually not a Biblical teaching. It is a materialistic worldview. Rick Warren teaches giving and caring for those in need. Here is a link to an article where he is quoted on his view of the "prosperity gospel" http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/septemberweb-only/137-41.0.html
We need to be careful to not be too quick to judge. There are some bad apples out there, but we can't lump the entire category in with them.
March 14, 2008 7:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Do Religious Conservatives Deserve the Soft Bigotry of Our Low Expectations?"
None more worthy.
February 15, 2008 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Got to disagree, and largely agree with the "New Atheists." (Sidebar: While the Buddhist-intoxicated Sam Harris may, technically, be an atheist, he is still clearly an immaterialist metaphysician, and is also clearly still religious, IMO.)
Anyway, religion IS irrational, if not antirational. And, I don't think all New Atheists have said religion is fundamentally conservative by nature; in fact, they'd probably first ask (as I know I would) for a definition of what exactly that phrase means.
February 15, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
its really all about "white" and "entitlement" isn't it?
February 15, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Richard,
In the light of this graf--
"Even the much-vaunted rise of young evangelicals’ disillusionment with the GOP—according to Pew’s recent polls—turns out to be anything but a sharp turn away from conservatism. Young evangelicals began the Bush years as stronger GOP supporters than their parents, according to Pew; all evangelicals have declined in their support of Bush—but consistently are much more supportive than the rest of the country; young evangelicals are in greater numbers telling pollsters that they’re independent that Republican---but almost none are moving to become Democrats or call themselves liberal. And most evangelicals, young and old, remain active supporters of the death penalty, opposed to abortion, and while more “concerned” about poverty, AIDs and the like than in the past, are remarkably unclear on what exactly should be done to solve those problems"--
what do you make of the Barna survey (http://edit.talkingpointsmemo.com/cgi-bin/mt4/mt.cgi?__mode=view&_type=entry&id=177229&blog_id=14)
to the effect that what 40% of what he calls born again likely voters would choose a (generic) Democrat and 29% would choose a (generic) Republican?
February 16, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hello, Todd, nice to hear from you.
Yes, of course, I know Barna's work.
Overview: Among the pollsters who do religion and public life (Gallup, Pew, Harris, Greenberg, Blendon, et al.) Barna sits over at one edge of the distribution, away from the others who cluster together far more. In that he's like Zogby in political polling.
Background: He's primarily a pollster for evangelical churches, who works out of Ventura, Ca, and has some very idiosyncratic frames of measurement, as far as the rest of us are concerned. He's especially contentious with the other pollsters about who's "born-again," "evangelical", etc. It's a snakepit in terms of terminology, to be sure, but it turns out he's just one more snake in the pit, not the charmer who sorts them all out.
His survey, cited by you: He's talking here about "born-again" voters--which includes whites, blacks, Hispanic, and Asian evangelical Protestants (and even a few charismatic Catholics). Most pollsters show this group at about 37-40% of US population, with Barna above the high side number.
But you have to subdivide the BAs into white and black and other. Whites (25 of those 40 points) vote 80% GOP; blacks (10 of those 40 points) vote 85% Dem; others--Hisp and Asian--vote 60-65% Dem.
It's imperative to keep this distinction clear: otherwise you end up with statements like "Southern born-agains were divided 50-50 on the merits of slavery in 1860"--when knowing that half of born-agains were white and half black would have led you to a more informed analysis: the key is in the level of (dis)aggregation.
What his aggregation of the data about born agains is really telling you is that Obama's going to drive black numbers to 90% and bring a black turnout similar to what JFK did in 1960. McCain's right now not going to drive up white turnout (certainly not the way Obama will drive up black numbers)--and he'll probably get 75%, not 80%, of those white bornagains who do vote.
Never confuse vanilla with Neopolitan ice cream, is the lesson here.
Here's a little one-page primer; concepts OK, numbers a little old:
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n2/evangelical-demographics.html
February 17, 2008 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think many people know at least one or two others who were once "Evangelicals" or Born Agains of some religion or other, Baptist Evangelical, Charismatic Catholic, etc. but who have left those beliefs behind and returned to the 'normal' world. I know at least two that come to mind.
I wonder what the turnover rate in this movement might be.
February 16, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have never thought that anything in a strictly literal reading of the Bible would show that Jesus was against income tax or was himself carrying a concealed weapon. I do remember a lot of stuff about feeding the hungry, healing the sick and comforting the afflicted, etc... Rather a left wing agenda, if you think about it.
In Latin American, "Liberation Theology" was on the way to putting this all into effect before a certain Cardinal Ratzinger put the kibosh on it. In evangelical America there is nobody with Ratzinger's authority to stop it by excommunicating its proponents, so if some form of Christian Socialism ever got rolling in flyover America it might be very hard to stop.
Intuition tells me that just as Sinclair Lewis said that when it came, Fascism in America would come "wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross", so too, it is difficult for me to imagine a profound move to the real left in America without reference to Jesus' exhortation, "Feed my sheep."
February 16, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Don't hold your breath." Dr. Richard D. "Rick" Warren
February 16, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm afraid I don't have a pithy, elegant turn of phrase like "soft bigotry of low expectations."
So are "expectations" predictions or demands?
My predictions, admittedly, couldn't be lower, but to call it bigotry, soft or otherwise, is offensive. It's an acquired contempt for hypocrites who have their reward in full. For people who call themselves Christians but don't even try to satisfy Christ's demands:
Mind the log in your own eye. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. Judge not. Give generously to the poor. Silently pray for your daily bread. And forgiveness. And deliverance from evil.
February 16, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
. . . the soft bigotry of low expectations . . . .
Everyone agrees the phrase was coined by Michael Gerson, George Bush's speechwriter. Bush used the phrase at the Manhattan Institute on October 5, 1999 (see, p. 31).
Anyone got an earlier date?
February 16, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
February 16, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Richard:
I think falsehood #3 is has been the driving force of the current Religious Right retrenchment, and it deserves more examination.
The Post-Nixon Republican Party has been built upon a singular claim introduced by the Religious Right: that people who ascribe to right-wing religious beliefs behave more honestly, ethically and morally than people who do not.
They preached that every social ill results from individual moral failing and/or a lack of religious faith: poverty, violent crime, teenage pregnancy, terrorist attacks, substance abuse --even natural disasters.
They insisted that so-called "liberal" values and policies --empiricism, human rights, pluralism, collective bargaining, stem cell research, environmental protection, progressive taxation, Social Security, women's rights-- caused an epidemic of moral failure, weakened national resolve, and left us first slouching, then skipping towards Gomorrah.
The nation's problems, they claimed, were just the citizenry's lack of conservative religiosity writ large; their solution was to shun the slightest hint of "liberalism" in governance, adopt policies based upon "correct" right-wing values (found mostly in ultraconservative religious teachings), and place ultraconservative Republicans in charge of government.
In short, no liberals, no problems.
But as Right Wing conservatives acquired more power over the past 25 years, they engaged in more corrupt, criminal behavior. Once they took control of our national government in 2000, they unleashed an unprecedented Horror Show of lawbreaking, perversion, abuse of power, and sleaze.
Whether it was Ken Lay's Enron scams, Duke Cunningham's bribery menu, Bill Bennett's gambling addiction, Ted Haggard's sexcapades, Rush Limbaugh's drug abuse, Jack Abramoff's corruption enterprise, Dr. David Hagar's sexual abuse of his wife, Bob Livingston's affair, David Vitter's prostitutes, Claude Allen's shoplifting, Strom Thurmond's secret mixed-race child, Phil Giordano's child rape, or Larry Craig's wide stance, the right-wing conservatives who sneered loudest about their religious-moral superiority were guilty of far worse misdeeds than anyone else.
Indeed, the millennium kicked-off with Catholic Church elites going to court to keep secret their copious records of child rape by priests, as the likes of Mr. Ratzinger wagged their fingers at gays and single women who use birth control. The most conservative church officials led a shrill public campaign to deny Communion to pro-choice politicians... but not priests convicted of child sex abuse.
The foundational claim upon which the Religious Right movement was founded --that their conservative religious beliefs make people morally superior-- has been exposed as a sham. (in fact, it looks to have been nothing more than the preferred disguise of profiteers and sociopaths).
The result is that their political movement is collapsing like a giant Ponzi Scheme.
February 16, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
February 16, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I posted above, I've never been able to see any connection between a reluctance to pay income tax and the right to bear arms and the teachings of Jesus Christ..
I think the whole thing goes back to the days of slavery. The problem was how to square loving one's neighbor as oneself and doing unto others as you would have them do to you with "keeping the (N word) down". A mental fuse was blown and has stayed blown to this day.
February 16, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The argument assumes that the people of the South (together with their Kansas, Oklahoma, and Orange County descendants) were mentally capable of noticing the contradiction.
Aside from the few aristocratic Bourbons who ruled and till recently, continued to rule them -- and prospered insofar as they refused to admit the contradiction -- I very much doubt that that mostly undereducated and loutishly benighted population was ever able to do so.
February 16, 2008 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
A"nyway, religion IS irrational, if not antirational."
I propose "Newest Atheism". To wit, we have to be a bit irrational, if not exactly antirational.
One advantage of atheism, but only a potential advantage, is that it is easier to translate semi-rational feelings into a value systems. If you do not see anything wrong in gay sex (consensual, prudent etc.) than no need for painstaking arguments that homosexualism is not an abomination after all (God was smiting some folks, but those were nasty pieces of work for other reason).
Similarly, if we are revolted by torture, we do not have to pore through the Bible for some indications if torture is right or wrong.
Nevertheless, some more method is needed to this madness. And one thing that religious people do, they approach morality in a certain systematic way. Atheists philosophers also do, but most of "rank and file" atheists could not care less.
For this reason, if no other, it is good to know what our religious friends are doing. After all, they are reaching conclusions that (liberal) atheists like, and if we do not like to ground such conclusions in "the teaching of Jesus Christ", we may start to look for philosophers.
February 16, 2008 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Muslims can claim Jesus as one of their prophets, surely we can claim him as one of our philosophers, no?
February 16, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are religious people, and then....
there are religious people like the late Jerry Falwewll (good riddance), Pat Robertson, Dobson and the rest of that trash that use religion and alienation as a vehicle to fame and fortune. They're no different than the reprobates Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity types that hustle alienation and rage to fame and fortune. They're all hustlers in the "us against them" crowd.
They should all be burned at the stake as witches.
February 16, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Or, at the least, be beaten severely about the head and shoulders with wet noodles." So sayeth the FSM.
February 16, 2008 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, if Christians actually knew what Christ preached ... instead of the swill of the Falwells and Robertsons, Christianity would be less damaging. I think of the Rep. Westmoreland so eviscerated by Stephen Colbert. Here the guy is pushing for mandatory placement of the 10 Commandments hither and yon and can only name 3. I am an atheist and could name them all.
But it's not just him, all of them would shut up on school prayer if they read Jesus admonition to pray in a closet and not on the street. Something those obnoxious students in Washington would know if they spent as much time learning their own religion as they spent on trying to force it on others.
And of course, all of those who believe material wealth is a sign of religious blessing, like Schuller who preaches that very thing, have they never read Jesus conversation with the rich man?
The problem isn't just that they are theocratical Christians, but that their Christianity is a bad version, inaccurate, malevolent and cancerous.
February 17, 2008 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Newt calling for bipartisanship, calls for social justice etc are a joke. This is more of the same where the republican party and less moderate right wingers find themselves on the outside and try and work the system to cajole their opponents into a compromise.
I say tell them to take a flying f***. These same persons have absolutely ignored the idea of a representative government every time they've been in power.
February 17, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Newt calling for bipartisanship, calls for social justice etc are a joke. This is more of the same where the republican party and less moderate right wingers find themselves on the outside and try and work the system to cajole their opponents into a compromise.
I say tell them to take a flying f***. These same persons have absolutely ignored the idea of a representative government every time they've been in power.
February 17, 2008 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have a born-again Christian (liberal) brother that I can usually have intelligent conversations with. I am an atheist. I once asked him "How can evangelicals ignore the teachings of Christ, especially when it comes to social issues? Aren't Christians, by definition, followers of the teachings of Christ?" He said "No, that's not what we're about. We accept Christ as our personal savior". I asked what that meant, and he said that meant he has accepted that his life is in Jesus' hands, and therefore he (my brother) will go to heaven when he dies.
He doesn't see Jesus as a prophet whose words he should study (the Bible serves that purpose), but as a savior for his eternal soul.
February 17, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ronik,
You should tell your brother and other like him that unless he is also willing to follow Jesus' teachings then he really does not believe in him at all, and his faith is a fraud.
February 17, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ronik and Jan,
This takes me back to my theory that all this dates to the days of slavery. It was so impossible to square the teachings of Jesus with keeping fellow human beings in bondage that it was necessary to blank that whole part out. This a version of Christianity that could allow a devotee to work as a concentration camp guard.
February 18, 2008 2:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
To socraticgadfly
First, love that moniker. Wish I'd thought of it first.
Second, while I think Harris has a great point in blaming moderate religious people for tolerating radical religious sorts because they both subscribe to the same basic irrationality, I'm challenged by Parker's point about the civil rights movement, and Dr. King's part in it, without religion.
Is that simply an anachronistic argument, or isn't there more there?
February 18, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obviously African-American evangelism is not going to be as schizophrenic as the white-southern brand.
February 18, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
“Actually, I completely disagree with Jim Wallis’s big government approach to poverty," (Rick) Warren wrote. "The answer is not aid, but trade, not subsidies but freer markets
You've made some good points against Warren and white evangelicals (such as myself) but I think you've unintentionally proven Warren correct on this point.
And how precisely will more Wal-marts and Chinese imports make up for the export of high-wage, high-skill jobs from America ?
Whatever the merits of 'free trade' vs 'fair trade', the trade and freer markets between the Western world and developing nations such as China and India have revolutionized their industries and is fast transforming them into advanced, developed, and socially more liberal and freer nations. All those job losses in the rich west, in the USA and other places, may unfortunately be at the expense of Americans, but it's becoming the economic savior of the Eastern developing nations. A similar thing has happened here in New Zealand when we liberalized and eliminated our import tariffs a couple of decades ago. Recognizing that we in the west already have so much more than them means conceding that this loss is their gain, is creating world economic equality, and is actually a good thing!
February 21, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Does Warren seriously believe that Saddleback or Habitat for Humanity rather than the FHA and Fannie Mae can build enough housing to shelter those in need? Does he honestly think that wealth redistribution is not an issue, now that America has the most unequal wealth and income distribution in the Western world or in its own modern history?"
Rick Warren believes that the Church (not just Saddleback, but the millions of churches throughout the world as a distribution network) is capable of solving the problem of poverty. If churchgoers were more generous and the resources were put to work, they could work a miracle. No one will be left with more debt. Wealth distribution is a problem, it is a symptom of selfishness of rich Americans unwilling to help the poor more than they already do. Instead we think we need a middleman, the government, to do it for us. Rick Warren simply believes that given the right circumstances, the Church can be very effective. If you look at what Saddleback Church alone accomplished after hurricane Katrina with its network of purpose driven churches there, it might give you pause. If you look at what he is doing in Rwanda with the network of churches there making medications available to the people there, you'd be surprised. So few hospitals and clinics, so many churches there.
FHA and Fannie Mae don't solve poverty issues. They insure loans to protect lenders. Using debt to help the poor is a poor excuse for help.
March 16, 2008 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink