The Clintons, Atwater, Rove, and the Future
It is certain that the Clintons' thousands of friends are cringing, turning away their attention out of sheer shame, grimacing, as they read the former President's derogatory dismissal of Obama's landslide victory as no different than Jesse Jackson's win there. But it's important to scrutinize what the Clintons are doing and how it might work out.
Most notable about the South Carolina results was that Hillary did not get a majority (based on exits) of any racial or gender-based demographic. She is famous; obviously she has a great deal of money and support from the old guard of the party, such as it is; and she is very well-prepared on policy. But she is not tremendously popular. She was wrong on Iraq; she has little personal record of fighting for a cause; she offers a management-style Presidency as opposed to visionary change.
Most of Hillary's votes appear to come from women, seniors, and lower income voters. These demographic groups could turn to Obama. She has not aroused passionate commitment by them.
Hillary has a tenuous status as the alleged front-runner. This is of course the reason she and her husband are taking the low road in terms of tactics. (Not for a second should anyone think she has not approved her husband's tactics, or that he has run amok.)
The former President's repeated injections of racial references are unacceptable in modern politics, or even modern society. If he were a commentator on the Golf Channel, he would be asked to resign. We know he is doing this because he believes that there is a racist strain in the groups that Hillary is counting on. In particular he believes he can encourage Latinos in California, New York, and New Jersey to come out to vote against Barack, simply because Barack is African-American. He does not believe he can persuade them to want to vote for Hillary, but hopes they will either not vote, or will vote for anyone but Barack.
Yet the Clintons cannot make the case against Barack based on any policy. This frustrates them. There is not one aspect of Barack's policy arguments that can arouse much desire among any Democrats to vote against him. He was right on Iraq; he is progressive on virtually everything, despite Paul Krugman's irritation that not every economic policy prescription fits Dr. Krugman's preferences.
In effect, the Clintons want people to dislike Obama the same way that some dislike the Clintons: irrationally, with groundless preconceptions, passionately. They both feel stigmatized for no good reason. To them it probably seems fair, or at least simply part of the process, if Barack is also unfairly hated.
Pehaps too the Clintons feel that the Republicans would attack Barack on racial grounds, so it makes no difference if they beat McCain or Romney to this tactic. In any case, the Clintons are going negative because they do not believe they can with a positive message attract more voters to Hillary. They want to drive voters away from Barack; they want his negatives to be as high as theirs.
The Clintons are thus running their own version of the Republican Southern Strategy that worked so well to elect conservatives from Nixon through to the current Bush. Ironically, the Clintons themselves spent their political careers battling against that strategy. Defeating it in the border states in 1992 was central to Bill Clinton's election.
There's no crying in baseball or politics, so let's not shed a tear over the completely unprincipled use of race-baiting language by the former President. He knows his Presidency was marred terribly by the impeachment, and that his record of accomplishment was much less than he hoped it would be. He wants this return to the White House to give him, and Hillary, a chance to rewrite the history book entry on the Clintons. He does not believe his repugnant tactic will be part of that history; he is sure that if and when they get back in power they will accomplish so much that the way they got elected again won't matter.
Indeed, they suppose that in the general election all will be forgotten. Barack will be campaigning with them. Everyone will have a good laugh about the tricks they all pulled to win the primaries. If such amity does not come to exist, still the Clintons believe they can count on blacks to vote for them in the fall no matter what. After all, Bill Clinton has the chutzpah to think of himself as the "black President" so taking that demographic's votes for granted is no stretch of the imagination for him.
But the Clintons' use of the tactics of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove inevitably contributes to the perception that Hillary Clinton is running a campaign that is trapped in the past, where race has always mattered much in elections. That was true in the 80's and 90's. But in the 00's it may not be so. Harold Ford barely lost the Tennessee general election; affirmative action is not one of the big issues of this election cycle; nor is welfare; while race has been the history of America it may not be the future. In any event, even if Obama defeats the Clintons, it is possible that the Clintons' use of the race tactic now will inoculate Obama in the fall. It is possible that the public will see him, may indeed already see him, they way people see Oprah or Denzel Washington or Tiger Woods -- public figures whose race and personal history is certainly well-known, but is not a reason for disapproval, hostility, or even disagreement. (Exit polls in South Carolina reported that about 70% of white voters said they would be satisfied if Obama were the nominee.) If by surviving the Clintons' tactics Obama became that sort of public figure, then he would give Democrats at the top of the ticket a candidate who could produce a landslide not only in the South Carolina primary but also across the country in the general.
This is not a reason to applaud the Clintons' tactic. The Clintons' admirers, of whom I have long been one, still should be consumed with regret that the election has brought Bill and Hillary to make this choice. Howard Dean and others who have been silent should still speak out against what they are doing. The New York Times editorial page should have inveighed against this tactic instead of endorsing Hillary. The Los Angeles Times should speak up. But if Obama overcomes what the Clintons are doing, he may have turned a page in American history and he will certainly be the dream candidate for Democrats this fall.
January 27, 2008 7:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
~
Have you noticed that you are being ignored in this thread by the majority of civil members here?
Now tuck your shirt in. Your Southern Strategy shorts are showing.
It's very clear why you're here.
On Friday, in your very first post under your newest screenname here at the cafe, just a short 2 days ago, included this divisive, hostility-tinged remark:
You are a rabble rouser. You are a trouble-maker.
You are not a nice person.
Go away!
~OGD~
January 27, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that M.J Rosenberg and LeftAhead wrote divisive, hostility-tinged remarks. I bet that Obama would never publicly agree that “Gaza: the 21st century Warsaw” or that Obama would ever use the following language “Jews are too smart to fall for such obvious lies. Or so I thought”, but I want to know for sure.
Yes I wrote the following:
MJ, a stong supporter of Obama, wrote:
Just imagine if somebody wroteor
or
There would be a hell to pay for such remarks.
Another Obama supporter leftAhead said
For huge majority of American Jews, Rosenbergs and leftAheads are enemies of Jewish people. If senator Obama wants to get votes of American Jews, he needs to make absolutely clear that he denounces views and language of Rosenbergs and leftAheads. M.J. Rosenberg is trying to bully American Jews in voting for Obama. It’s not going to work.
January 27, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
'Boris,' please try to keep your anti-semitic rants confined to MJ's posts.
More to the point here, I've never said anywhere at TPM cafe who I am 'for' in this election, so basically, you are trying to use my name in a lie to smear Obama.
Just another example of your lowliness.
It's not going to work, because, to paraphrase the Bard:
January 27, 2008 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, you are admitting that your view are so reprehensible so by surmising that Obama might share your views I smear him. Thank you for straight talk.
January 27, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course it's more acceptable for MJ to say it, it's far more acceptable in discourse to bash your own people-group. Frankly I'm confused, what has Obama done to make himself unacceptable or an enemy of American Jews? Not denouncing a columnist and blog commenter?
Are you for real?
Anyhow, seeing as you properly quoted someone and I guess contributed minimally to the discussion, I decline to troll rate you and frankly stick around if you want.
January 28, 2008 8:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't not say that Obama is unacceptable to American Jews. Notice that Bill Kristol and Marty Peretz (tnr) and M.J. Rosenber support Obama. However, I'm saying that views of some of Obama's biggests supporters in tmpcafe are unacceptable to American Jews and I want to know if Obama share such views or not.
January 28, 2008 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Care to offer the poll data that support that contention?
Or are you extracting a small subset of hotheads?
Suggest writing his campaign office and asking your question.
January 28, 2008 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have no way to know what majority of Obama supporters think and I make no claims about their views. I can only make claims about views of posters here in tpmcafe.
January 28, 2008 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Claims about posters not backed up with evidence = lies.
I don't think my views on Gaza are all that controversial amongst the human race in general, but as I said, save your anti-semitic rants for MJs forum.
Face it, 'Boris,' you lied about me in a weak effort to smear Obama. If you think this is in error, please produce some evidence.
You also plagiarized one of Josh's posts.
Why should we have to put up with a stinky troll who is alying plagiarist?
January 28, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
January 28, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
You make this claim, further down this page:
This includes the press outside of this site. It is also unfounded, since you have no controlled survey, only your memory of the ones that stuck out.
January 28, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, I express my unscientific opnion.
January 28, 2008 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Then you should say "It seems to me..." or "I get the impression...". And if you are serious about wanting to know about Obama's sympathy to the hotheads, write to his campaign. Ask them about his policy and views.
I get the impression you are not serious, just prefer phrases that reverse someone's statement into an absurd version. Make your case, don't depend on cheap tricks like that.
January 28, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
~
You are a rabble rouser. You are a trouble-maker.
You are not a nice person.
Go away!
~OGD~
January 27, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not helping.
January 28, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Corvid
And Obama is correct. If you look at the enormous racial (racist?) difference between whites and blacks in the ACTUAL SOUTH CAROLINA VOTE, with 80 percent of blacks going for Obama and fewer than half the whites, Bill Clinton's remarks about Jackson vs. Obama were perfectly valid and 100 percent relevant.
.
This is just like that brouhaha over Bill's "fairy tale" remark. He was talking about Obama's record on the Iraq war--not Obama's entire campaign. Still, that's the story that got out. The fact that Bill said and meant nothing of the sort is simply immaterial for those who want to believe otherwise.
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And who are those people? For a while I thought it was a good little story line for the media--kind of like all that nonsense about Al Gore supposedly saying he invented the Internet. Of course, he said nothing of the sort, but he has been saddled with this garbage for years.
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In Bill Clinton's case, however, I think something else may be at work. It does seem that the Dem establishment (including the Kennedy clan) now see an opportunity to chuck off these Arkansans that they were never terribly comfortable with from the start. They've been lying in the bushes till now, but now that they and/or the media have successfully gouged a chink in the Clinton armor, they're piling on, going for the kill.
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I don't like the Clintons, not one little bit. But as a Chicagoan, I dislike Obama even more. Those who support him should, for instance, maybe look into how he managed to purchase a mansion on the south side, and who helped him buy it, as well as his long record of endorsements for some of the filthiest pols in Illinois--and that's saying a helluva lot, even though it only scratches the surface. Then there's the actual substance of his campaign, which is timid, half-hearted and overly eager to reach out to the damned Republicans--in short, the least changeful of all the Dems--but then no one's paying any attention to that. Maybe it's even somehow "racist" in the eyes of Obama partisans to bring it up. Who knows?
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In all, this campaign is a very sorry, sordid little spectacle. But the very sorriest and most sordid corner of it right now is this vicious, cowardly, fact-free rounding on the Clintons by the media and the Dem establishment. Have they no shame?
January 28, 2008 7:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
obama's acceptance speech was brilliant last night. He's getting stronger by the day.
January 27, 2008 7:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
The SF Chronicle enmdorsed Obama for largely the reasons Reed sets forth, also that he will be a unifier and gives hope for the future not an endless cycle of retribution and vengeance. There are far more Latinos in SF now than blacks. Obama is very popular in Northern CA.
Plus, Caroline and Ted Kennedy have both endorsed Obama.
I do think the Clintons overplayed their hand, and Bill's presence has the effect of diminishing Hillary.
January 27, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem Bill is giving Hillary, in my opinion, is that Hillary is running on her vast experience as a co-equal member of the Clinton team during his presidency. But, she has to have Bill on hand to smear Obama, and draw crowds for her, raise funds for her, etc., which should make people wonder just how much of an equal partner was she during Bill's presidency. Of course, the answer is that she wasn't anywhere near an equal partner - she was just a first lady with an interest in what was going on (unlike the current first lady, for example). But, that means she really doesn't have all of that experience she claims.
Her campaign would have done far better to keep Bill in the back room doing whatever he could do to help her, but saying nothing on the campaign trail. Then she could possibly get by claiming such vast experience.
I think as the election cycle goes on, this is going to occur to many voters, and if she is our candidate, this could be a fatal blow to our chances.
Hoppy in Sacramento
January 27, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's the difference between the Health Care Plan Obama offers and the one Hillary is offering?
January 27, 2008 8:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
They have a different approach to getting everyone covered. Hillary wants to penalize people if they don't buy insurance similar to the Massachusetts plan. Obama argues that penalizing people who can't afford insurance is wrong and won't work. I can't say I'm satisfied with either because neither seems to guarantee everyone is covered and once you concede that point, the Republicans will chip away at who does get covered as they have with SCHIP.
January 27, 2008 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is no penalty in Clinton's health care plan. There is no penalty in Obama's plan, there is no penalty in Edwards' plan. Clinton and Edwards have mandates for employers, employees and insurance companies. Obama's plan has a mandate for the employers and the insurance companies.
January 27, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's health care plan is certainly better than George Bush's, yet I do hope for a more radical plan. The problem with our medical industry, as I see it, has at least 3 major elements. 1. The pharmaceutical companies are in it for one reason: money. They need to be nationalized. Yes, I still believe an industry can accomplish great things even when profit is not the driving force. 2. Kick the lawyers completely out of the health care business. They, too, are in it only for the money. Our method of controlling doctors in this country is to sue them. Nonesense. We need boards that can discipline them, when needed, rather than sue them (actually, we sue only their insurance companies.) 3. Kick the insurance companies out of the health care business. What is their real purpose? They are only middlemen. And, of course, they are in it only for the money. Everyone has heard what Willie Sutton said when he was asked why he robbed banks, he said "because that's where the money is." He was saying, in effect, that money corrupts. (That's in the Bible somewhere, isn't it?) Willie was right. Money has corrupted our health care industry. We need to take the money out of the industry, the pursuit of it does more harm than good. This morning, I read Obama's lengthy plan that he has posted on his web site. I sure like what I read. I hope he becomes our next president. However, I am cynical. I am very leary that the powers that be will not let it be.
January 27, 2008 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kick the insurance companies out of the health care business.
Indeed.
Without that, nothing else matters.
All health care plans will still remain mired in paperwork, huge costs and poor care unless that is done.
Obama at least acknowledges one-payer is the way to go. Hillary is on the take.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 9:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, Terry. In my view John Edwards would be a perfect opponent to the insurance industry in fighting for universal single payer healthcare. And I'd love to see Obama put him there.
January 27, 2008 9:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am convinced that putting all-out profit-making entities, responsible for shareholder value, cannot work in healthcare. I am not convinced, based on the German and to a lesser extent Japanese systems, that multi-payer, either with nonprofits or extremely regulated insurers, cannot work fairly.
Germany, in particular, has some quite good alternatives to micromanagement and preapproval, which they've turned into continuous process improvement, with a minimum of punitive quality and a maximum of finding ways to do better. Overall, they have less paperwork, but they actually pay providers for the work involved in generating the quality improvement statistics.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
January 27, 2008 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kick the insurance companies out of the health care business.
The goalposts have already been moved, so to speak, as the HMO concept has been institutionalized--despite the facts on the ground, which counter every one of the efficiency arguments that the pundits and lobbyists broke out during the late 80s to rationalize their radical 'for profit' plans in the health care industry.
January 27, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Texas installed a $250,000 cap on tort recoveries for pain and suffering, and I know of several people who have been injured on the job, their Workman's comp has run out, their companies then ired them when they could not work, and they have no way to get a lawyer to take a case because there is not enough potential recovery to pay for the lawyer.
If you think any medical board is going to discipline doctors, you are dreaming. They don't do it now, and that won't change. It's just like the current utility boards who work for the utility companies rather than the rate payers.
Lawyers in the medical system save money by forcing the medical providers to offer better medicine. There is no substitute for lawyers doing that job for injured patients.
3. What do you want? Single payer?
Me too. Insurance companies contribute nothing to medicine and health care.
But single payer is also a private/public partnership in most industrial countries. Health care providers themselves should be left free to operate as private individuals, partnerships and small corporations. I'd question the value of chains of hospitals, though.
==================================
My physician graduated from med school with 30 years of repayments due on his student loans. Cuba, however, will provide free medical education to individuals who promise to return the the U.S. and work in underserved areas after passing the U.S. licensing exams. We'd get much better health care at lower costs by subsidizing medical education and providing public health care in poor areas that can't afford rich doctors.
January 27, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's another element that has to do with lawyers and health care:
Which scenario (both horrible) would you prefer?
1. You slip on an ice-cube in your kitchen, crack your head on a counter and end up as a quadriplegic --> no movement below the neck and unable to do anything for yourself for the rest of your life.
or
2. You slip on an ice cube in a Doubletree Hotel, crack your head on a counter and end up as a quadriplegic --> no movement below the neck and unable to do anything for yourself for the rest of your life.
With #1, you and your family will probably have to sell all your assets so that you can eventually qualify for Medicaid so that you can get cared for. Your family will go through hell to even get to that point, and the money that you hoped you would be able to give them to help them all get launched will be gone.
With #2, you will get (after a trial or a settlement), care for the rest of your life, and your family will get far more money than you would have been able to give them as you had planned.
What is wrong with this picture? People who need care need care. In Europe, where care for all citizens is a way of life, there are no million-dollar settlements for injuries. People don't have to sue to keep their families from suffering in order to get their medical care. In fact suits for things like this are very rare.
Yes, educating doctors, teachers, and others who serve the public should be subsidized, but then doctors' incomes should reflect that change.
Jan
January 27, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only reason for not suing in the first case is if you negligently put the ice cube there yourself. Then you are not likely to recover by suing yourself. (Depending, of course, on how your homeowner's policy is written.)
In the second case, the Doubletree was negligent, and should be required to pay the cost of their negligence. An alternative system would be for the government to fine them, while providing the needed health care and disability support. Do you trust the government that much? I am both ex-military and an ex-civil servant, and I can guarantee that I do not trust the government. Like all organizations, it takes on the attitudes of those at the top.
The advantage of a purely government system is that things become standardized, so that two people who suffer the same medical problems get the same care regardless of fault. That's good. But that is also accompanied by being dependent on the government rules and personnel for any benefits, which if the rules fit the reality and the administrators do their jobs honestly, is OK. But there is no room in such a system for redress when the politicians and bureaucrats decide to not act fairly. Without lawyers involved, most individuals have to take what the government offers and get nothing else. Only the Rule fo Law protects us from the arbitrary actions of bureaucrats, and the lawyers and courts are the enforcers of the Rule of Law. A law not applied by the administrators might as well not have been passed, because it does not direct the administrator's actions. (See Bush's signing statements as an example. They are an institutional flouting of the Rule of Law by the President who is merely an administrator, not a lawmaker himself.)
I worked for Social Security before Reagan, and I saw a good, generally effective and well-meaning bureaucracy that did most things right, if sometimes slowly. Then Reagan came in and gutted the disability system so that now two-thirds of all appeals of denials are ultimately reversed and approved - two or more years after the initial denial. The initial denials are intended to discourage expensive cases from being paid. Lawyers have been a godsend since the Reagan Revolution, one reason Republicans have demonized tort lawyers so badly.
Americans need lawyers in part because we cannot trust our government.
Granted also, the Europeans are much more civilized than America. America is, you must remember, the wild frontier, and we make a fetish of the frontier myth here. That's why John Wayne, who never played anyone except himself in the movies, is so often acclaimed as a good actor. It's that frontier myth that sets up the idea that everyone has the right to enact his own get-rich scheme. If you have no respect for your own society, then the only alternative is to become a "superman" in some manner and transcend the sad society in which you live. Since most people will not succeed at that get-rich scheme, and since most get-rich schemes exploit other people, we need lawyers very badly.
Europe has generally accepted that the dog-eat-dog society is not the best way to live, an attitude that angers the American conservatives. Canada is about the only place in the Americas that seems to have learned the European civilized attitudes. Of course, Canadian doctors are not paid as well as ours are.
Nor are the Cuban-trained doctors that Castro sends out as part of his foreign aid paid well. We, of course, send guns, tanks and planes and provide training in military arts as our foreign aid.
January 27, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Really sad, Rick, but right on the money.
January 27, 2008 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Compared to simpler systems that existed in the past (anarchy, monarchy, totalitarianism, etc.) this is better because it gives the individuals involved some say in what society does to and for them. That's what Churchill meant when he said that Democracy is the worst possible system of government, except for all the others.
So I'll disagree with your characterization of it as "Really sad." Reality is really, really complicated, and any attempt to impress a rational, understandable, clear and just template over it is doomed to failure. No possible overall system exists that makes reliable predictions of what will happen in the future given today's events, that is fair and comprehensive and at the same time is something we could understand.
The best we can do is pick out little segments of reality, try to understand each of them, and then agree among ourselves to set up social systems that deal with them in generally predictable ways.
Anthropologists call that "culture." It's an artifact of the apparently unique human ability to model reality in shared language, accompanied with an also apparently unique human ability to recognize time as past, present and future. That ability to recognize time permits us to model possible future scenarios (using another human characteristic - an apparent need and ability to recognize deep patterns, true or false, in large collections of facts), develop a social consensus of what those future scenarios are and which are good and which are not, and then take actions today to change future events to match those preferred imagined future scenarios.
All that was described by Robert Parsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" when he stated that before there was ever a motorcycle in reality, first there was a dream of a motorcycle.
I actually find it rather exciting that there is any species capable of attempting such a unique and apparently impossible feat, that has had some degree of success as a species in such attempts, and that I belong to that species. The fact that it is so difficult to establish a consensus set of future possible scenarios that all of us can work towards should not detract from the fact that no other (known) existing species can even try to do it.
Jesus! Am I making any sense at all? Obviously I have too much free time on my hands and shouldn't be allowed near an active keyboard!
January 28, 2008 6:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think a very good idea is to start a not-for-profit" corporation solely owned by the taxpayers, funded through employment taxes, workers' compensation and state contributions. The excess revenue could be used to invest in public owned hospitals, emergency care centers and health clinics.
All healthcare provider statistics would be made public and released yearly as "report cards" in regions with bonuses paid to those hospitals/care centers, etc., with the best records.
Governments can also continue to subsidize research and development in pharmacuticals, but instead of turning the patent over to the drug companies, the patents would be retained by the government, royalties paid on the manufacturing and the royalties be used to subsidize prescriptions. Universities would be paid for research and development if the patents are to be retained by the taxpayers.
January 27, 2008 6:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's one possibility and ought to be considered carefully.
That not-for-profit, public-private, corporate or government, organizational structure is not unique, of course. That's essentially the same form of structure that the Federal Reserve uses, as well as the Student Loan Marketing Association (SLMA) ["Sally Mae") and the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae"). There's probably others. So there is precedent for such an organizational structure.
To evaluate it properly, the detailed functions that organization would perform need to be laid out, and then the advantages and disadvantages of that not-for-profit corporation as a way to perform those functions should be considered and compared to alternative organizational structures.
I wonder if anyone has attempted such an effort yet?
January 28, 2008 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Goodbye, Billary!
January 27, 2008 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or is that Hillbilly . . . now that Hillary is in the forefront . . .
January 27, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
The reason this is happening is not because the Clintons are racist (they are not, of course) it's because Hillary is such a bad candidate. She spent a year bleating about how important experience is instead of establishing a rationale for her candidacy. She still doesn't have one. She expected to be essentially unopposed. The "experience" meme is absurd, prima facie. If she's nominated, she'll have less experience in government than any major party candidate in at least a hundred years, and her most likely opponent will have FAR more experience; will she then vote for McCain?
On top of that, her candidacy is based purely on celebrity and nepotism. Not to say she wouldn't be good at the job, but there's no rationale other than her marriage to the ex-president for offering it to her. The Republicans will eat her lunch on this basis alone.
She's unpopular, uncompelling, and ineloquent on the stump. her husband may yet muscle her into this nomination, but if the Dems nominate her, they deserve the thrashing they'll get in November, and the dissolution of the party that will occur afterwards.
January 27, 2008 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for this fascinating analysis. Coming from a longtime supporter, your cautionary words and consideration of the positive outcome with regard to Obama carry even more weight.
I would like to underscore and enlarge one point you made, because I think there is a deeper reason:
In my view it is not just bill's race baiting that would lead to his resignation, but the conflict of interest going on here. You have outlined how bill wants to set the record straight, to have another chance at history. We all know that hillary is, in effect, standing on her husband's shoulders by claiming "35 years of experience" - many of which were years as presidential or gubernatorial spouse. Frank Rich in today's NY Times points to other issues which could be subsumed under the category of conflict of interest. And we have, as well, the issue related to bill's "role" as former president and how that role plays out from the point of view of an "authority figure" injecting himself into a contest, which he can no longer contest on his own and so is contesting vicariously through his wife.
Where else in American life do we permit former chief executive to publicly trash a contender for next chief executive in order to help a spouse? Would it not be considered a conflict of interest for a former CEO to do this? Or a former judge? A former college president? Do lawyers who are married do this with regard to cases a spouse is representing? What about a former police chief doing the same thing? In business or academia such behavior would be deemed a danger to the institution itself. Why should we not take this into account in terms of damage to the republic?
I think the Golf Channel would not hire someone where there was such a conflict in interest. And to me the conflict of interest issue is paramount here. As well as the behavior that should be expected from a former holder of high office.... whether spouse of not... to get down into the gutter and try to regain that office through a surrogate.
January 27, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for thinking this through in this way; it is an excellent analysis of something that never occurred to me.
South by Southwest
January 27, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for your kind words, Carol Gee.
January 28, 2008 4:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Reed.
Mrs. Bill wants liberals to vote for her and Mr. Bill because they are white, right and will extend the Reagan-Clinton-Bush policies as far as the eye can see.
Give us a break, Barack.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amusing typo here:
While Bill is surely not running amok, he has gone rather a-mucking.
January 27, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, Tom. And I think there is a strong psychological connection between this "muck" and his former intern "muck." bill is apparently a man who does not master his passions. He's gone from sexual passion to hostile aggression. It is just as unseemly.
Past behavior being the best predictor of future behavior, we can expect no less should bill become co-president. He'll insert himself into everything... not just into an intern. To our detriment.
It is clear he cannot stop himself. We must do it for him.
January 27, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not a typo. "Amuck" is just an alternate spelling. Check your dictionary if you don't believe me.
January 27, 2008 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Preferred, or primary, spelling is without the "c". I find "amok, amuck, amuk". (2 out of 3.) I've only seen the first spelling in print.
January 28, 2008 5:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
At the outset, I felt vaguely sick of the Clintons and they've done nothing but remind me why. They are not team players. They're too busy saving the party from itself to build the party or forge lasting coalitions. As a result, they've failed at both.
If the attacks against Obama have the intended effect, they will only serve to increase his negative rating. They will do nothing to increase HRC's positives or lower her negatives, which are already in the 40's. Either way, the Democratic nominee will enter the general election with a higher negative rating than necessary.
Bill Clinton could be tremendously effective as a positive force, if they so chose. Without diminishing Obama in the slightest, Bill could easily talk about how great Hillary is, and how she never gave up on him, and she won't give up on the American people either, and how busy he is studying cookie recipes to prepare for a challenging new career as First Husband.
Or failing that, Bill could go attack the Republicans. He could easily call out individual Congressmen and Senators who opposed this or that good idea and supported this or that dumb idea. Drive up their negatives instead.
Bill Clinton has often uttered the truism that if you don't get elected, you have no power and therefore achieve nothing. The Clintons appear to believe this a little too strongly.
January 27, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ironic that Ralph Nader's greatest accomplishments were not from an elected position, and his greatest mistake may have been trying to get elected, or at least gain some party-style power.
January 27, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Did anyone else hear Senator Clinton say,this morning on one of the morning shows that she intends to work to reverse some of the wrong headed policies "of the last fifteen years"? A period which includes here husband's presidency.
Strive for the ideal, but deal with what's real.
January 27, 2008 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I really don't care who they elect(yes, there is a 'they', and they have a damn sight more money than I do, if you're not into 7 figures, you're an honorary participant in this whole farce), as LONG as they have some straight talk and an actionable plan to go after run-amok federal spending. Get that budget business taken care of, and stop trying to use B.S. eco-poltix to box people in economically. We need exports.
For that, you need some type of fabrication facility, typically referred to as 'a factory',
and 'employees'. I mean, given the time, and someone to consult with on construction and fabrication, I think I could conceptualize an automated facility to make things, but the idea is to get people trained, and employed. People that have jobs have no need of 'government doughnuts'. Less government doughnuts=less national debt. I think the candidates' answers on some questions ABOUT the whole debt would be pretty revealing as far as their future plans for policy go. Taking the country 'condo' would generally fit with a real estate mentality, but that's kind of been a problem in this country for oh, about 20 years, now, all the realtors parceling the country off to the highest bidder,
and sure, business, but also the kind of business that'll see people doing things that will keep the domestic economy afloat without being on perpetual federal life support. Exports. Tools. Equipment. Things that don't eject bullets when you pull the little lever
but instead are useful for actual work somehow.
Sundries. Finished goods. Cars that get good mileage. The kind of things we're importing now because they outsourced all that icky work stuff to China so they could turn some states into parks for rich people to frolic in. Industry.
Industry that hasn't been hollowed out financially by unionists. Industry that makes things 'made in the USA' that are worth buying.
I saw a little bit of 'do it yourself' initiative, guy with a weedeater engine on the back of a bicycle. Getting all Harley-Davidson there (before they went public and got fat).
Indeed, going back to the basic wheel, the blank sheet of paper, the bare drawing board in an empty shop building. RE-creating. It'll be fun!
January 27, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
It couldn't be that some of the pundits are implementing a smear themselves, could it? Jesse Jackson, Jr. pushed the Clinton = race-baiting meme across S.C. They won S.C. by virtue of the black vote and the reverse smear on the Clinton camp was a large part of that. Obama waited until the narrative had taken hold before he began calling for his above-it-all politics. Consider HRC’s position. A concerted effort is pursued to label them as race-baiters and it works. So, they can’t even allude to race because it gives their opponents (even here) more ammunition.
Clinton’s remarks were cringe-inducing? Jesse Jackson-ewww! It sounds more like Clinton-hating pundits are now making coded racist attacks on Jesse Jackson. How can Obama have Jesse Jackson, Jr. as his national co-chair? Like astrology believers reading confirmation into their own personal horoscopes, some absorb this pundits’ spin on any remark that even indirectly touches on race. After all, this is something those corrupt calculating Clintons would do, so it must be their intention.
Obama is campaigning nationally as a conciliator who will bring everyone together. That is great, and it’s a powerful message. But he was running as a black man in the black community in S.C. C’mon, the gospel tour, the beauty/barbershop campaign, Oprah and civil rights leaders stumping (“He’s the one”)? That is just what he should have done to win but any mention of it is labeled racist as it conflicts with his message. Many African-Americans voted for him because he is African-American just as women favored Hillary as potentially the first woman president. I didn’t see those black voters disgusted by the Hillary “racism” swinging towards Edwards who more directly addresses needs of the working people of S.C.
Both campaigns were actively courting racial (and other) groups in S.C. though both denied it because it’s such a hot potato. I’m sure Obama does not want to be typed generally with any segment of voters, which counters his universal message. But I also doubt any candidate would turn down any votes, anywhere and he had to have S.C. in this year of cascading caucuses. Of course, Clinton was relating Obama’s win to Jackson’s win by virtue of the black vote. But how is that racist?
January 27, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not racist but it still stinks.
I have up to now favored Clinton slightly over Obama. I haven't minded Bill "working the refs" of the media because they HAVE given Obama an easier time than Hillary. Hillary-hatred is still alive and well in the press corps and that stinks too.
But this is over-the-line. It's borderline racially-offensive, and more importantly it somehow seems like Bill still saying, "it's all about me. Nothing to see here, folks, move on along, those in the know know that South Carolina is not that important, how much good did it do Jesse Jackson, hint hint wink wink."
He should have graciously congratulated Obama and said, "On to Super Tuesday" and gotten the hell off the stage. This is not how you behave when you get your ass kicked and it's driving people to Obama and I know it's true because it's driving me that way and I don't want to go that way.
Hillary now needs to get him to disappear for awhile. If she's running to be the first woman president, she's not going to get there if she lets it appear that she needs this kind of crap. She's got to win this on her own or it won't be worth having.
January 27, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with your assessment, except that I hope she keeps him doing exactly what he has been doing. :-)
January 27, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you about Bill Clinton. He is cocky and condescending and probably hurting their campaign more than helping, at least in the short term. But if their camp is not portrayed as race-baiting in the first place, his remarks would not be perceived as offensive rather than typical politics. His remark and that of others have been misconstrued as racial slights.
I don’t support Clinton but don’t despise her or him as much as some seem to. I think it’s because I never considered Bill Clinton as anything other than what he was: a skilled and ambitious politician who veered to the center and spoke of hope and reconciliation to attract a broad support. I voted for him twice but didn’t buy into Clinton as progressive savior. I think some of the backlash and buying into the Republican smears against the Clintons has to do with elevated expectations of them originally.
Obama is, in many ways, running just as Clinton did. He’s still playing politics very skillfully but doesn’t get his hands dirty. Clinton accommodated corporate interests at times much the same as Obama has in his political rise. I should have made clearer above that I think Obama is in a catch-22 on this, just as Hillary is. He naturally wants to actively pursue a constituency that would love to see an African-American president but that would expose his color-blind message.
So, all of this takes place behind the scenes and through coded messages and innuendo. But ambiguity and distortion doesn’t call for more distortion and all of the candidates have to be given the benefit of the doubt. We can’t accuse people race-baiting when they are not. A quick look at real smear campaigns- ah, I miss Karl Rove- and it becomes apparent how so much of this is playing one of those cards everyone talks about.
All this hand-wringing over supposed racially-tinged remarks and –gasp- directly appealing to black voters is part of the political pandering and horse-race, scandal-mongering coverage of our media elections. I don't care who is appealing to what group and who is the best orator or poll-driven strategist or mudslinger. I want to know who is going to stop the new FISA travesty next week. I want to know who is going to bring down the criminal autocracy that has cemented its power.
January 27, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't despise the Clintons, I never liked them all that much either, but I supported her over Obama because she wasn't giving ground to the Republicans that she needn't have and because they're fighters. (I'll still vote for Edwards on Super Tuesday.)
And I agree with you that a lot of the earlier supposed race-baiting stuff wasn't. It wasn't particularly effective - why compare yourself to the immensely popular LBJ, but the point behind it was true. However, I can't take Bill Clinton's remarks about Jesse Jackson in South Carolina as saying anything other than "a black man can't win", and even if he thinks that, and even if that's right, he should never, ever say it. Leave that to the media pundits. It comes damn close to crossing over a line that stands between a nomination worth having and a nomination that's worth nothing.
January 27, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your point is perhaps a bit too labored. You may have missed Al Gore's campaign manager, Donna Brazille, on ABC this morning. On the point of whether Obama ran on race:
Paraphrasing slightly: "I've been organizing black people since I was nine years old," she said. "What strikes me as I've listened to Obama very carefully, is this: He uses the same language with everyone."
He doesn't use coded racial wink-and-nod dog whistle stuff, which Bill Clinton did in SC. His language, and his actions corroborate his claim that his is not running as a black man or as a white man but as an American.
I never thought I'd see the day when this could happen in my country. All I can say is: Thank God it happened when I could still see it. I hope the rest of us can finally appreciate what is happening. This candidate is giving us an enormous gift, to finally find a way past the awful legacy of slavery, by reconciling and loving both the part of himself that come from a white mother and from a black father. He's made peace with that, and gives us a gift of forgiveness and reconciliation that is of enormous importance.
What makes it difficult in this race is that a woman is also running. It is long past time for a woman president. But two things drive me to Obama. One is the above sense that the issue of a shameful and divisive racial past may be about to end, and that that is of trancendent importance. The other is that this woman candidate is flawed in some important ways, and I just can't feel that she is the right one for the job.
It's too bad. But on the other hand, we are blessed with the choice between administrative competence and greatness. Not a bad choice to have to make, actually.
January 27, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Besides in the last two weeks it's become clear that you can't tell if a woman is even running. Seems like the The Big Dog can't make room for the little woman on the big stage.
January 27, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why do people feel free to make sexist remarks but pretend to outrage at racist remarks?
January 27, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey now, we all know that bluebell doesn't make sexist remarks.
I know it's frustrating that bluebell is supporting the wrong candidate (kidding!) but sheesh!
It really is odd that here of all places we're accusing each other of racism and sexism. Nobody here is anything like that.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The little woman?" When's the last time you heard that phrase?
I don't think bluebell is supporting the wrong candidate, I think that she's making stereotypical remarks.
You know, these "billary" and "hillbilly" and "little woman" and all the other slurs are offensive - it sounds just like the wackjob crap on the lucianne.com board or the freeper board.
January 27, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know. But Bev, you've been around here awhile, as has bluebell. And we all know that despite the words she might be using that bluebell, of all people, isn't out to make sexist comments. Consider the source and the people you know.
I know I'm being a hypocrite because I called Reed a concern troll but us TPMers should take care of each other as the primaries heat up. We're all going to need each other later.
Not saying no fighting, of course. But I think we can agree that we're all not racists and sexists.
Sorry for interfering. This post of mine seems really preachy.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what the problem is here, destor? People aren't even aware that they're making sexist comments. I'm not only disgusted with the sexist comments, I'm disgusted with the freeper/lucianne crappy remarks about the Clintons. It's a shame anyone has to read that here.
January 27, 2008 7:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's got nothing to do with sexism. I'd never say the same thing about Nancy Pelosi who also has an extremely successful spouse. The difference is she isn't trying to simply replace her spouse to do his job while he stands in the wings. Nope, she went off and had an entirely separate career and earned her own way. If you don't think that's the case with Hillary have her send Bill off on an 8 year mission to some 3rd world outpost and let her be seen as her own person.
January 28, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you read Frank Rich's Billary column? He's about as liberal as you can find in the MSM these days.
How can you take Hillary seriously when Bill speaks BEFORE she does after the SC primary? How would Obama look if his wife was behaving like Bill? He'd be portrayed as a henpecked wimp.
January 28, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
To be sensitive to nepotism is not being sexist.
January 27, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
But to call someone "hillbilly" or "billary" or "the little woman" is being sexist.
January 27, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
A 2, Jan?
January 27, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
A zero, BevD?
January 28, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Minstrel shows, black face, amoral politician? This is the second time I've given a 0 on this board - what you wrote is especially disgusting directed at a democrat.
These are the kind of remarks you read on lucianne.com.
January 28, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree. Hillary is running on Bill's coat-tails. The "experience" that she claims is not backed by facts. Claiming experience as a First Lady when she didn't have clearance to see documents that would have made her a part of the decision-making process is fatuous.
The only thing I am aware of that she did as First Lady was to try (in a hugely unsuccessful way) to reform Health Care. Why did it fail? She was secretive and exclusionary, and she kept medical experts out of the loop. It was doomed by her approach.
If she has truly had 35 years of experience (which from a chronological point of view included her time as a law student) where is the list of personal accomplishments? I know she has been on tons of committees, but what has she accomplished Herself? What has her mark on it? There should be a huge list and I haven't seen it.
What has she gone to the mat over? What has she done? The Flag Burning Ammendment? No Thanks. The Iraq War? No Thanks.
She is tied to Bill because she wants to take credit for his 8 years; unfortunately, he is tarnishing his own name to make up to his wife.
I agree with another poster, who said that as a former President, he should stay out of this. I used to think I would vote for Bill Clinton if he could (somehow) run again. He has ruined that. I am sick of both of them.
Sexist? Although convenient, it just ain't so.
Jan
January 27, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've uprated Bev's comment because I agree that the Billary, and Hillybilly stuff is extremely sexist.
When so-called progressives start using slurs straight out of GOPUSA/Roves handbook, I think they should be called on it.
I'm not fond of the Clintons and don't want Hillary as the nominee, but really, hasn't the bar sunk low enough? Why allow it to deteriorate further in a mature discussion?
CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com
January 27, 2008 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've uprated Bev's comment because I agree that the Billary, and Hillybilly stuff is extremely sexist.
Ludicrous.
Is it better to call hillbillies rednecks or poor white trash? Know any good redneck jokes BTW?
Hillary and Bill Clinton have made themselves a very bad joke. Not to call them on it is what's wrong.
Hillary Clinton would be the first woman elected all right but she would be little more than a surrogate for her hubby, the original DLC candidate who infamously rebranded the Democratic Party as an auxiliary of the Republican Party and dumped the poor and working classes in favor of the middle class.
You are free here to deny the obvious and press the ugly racism of Obama being the black candidate as you wish, but you can't claim virtue when you do so. Wrong to call others names for simply telling the truth that you do not wish to accept.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 7:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
duplicate
January 28, 2008 3:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillbillies, white trash, and rednecks are all bad. I don't know any jokes about them, but I know a few about zealots that plunge blindly into a cult of personality. Want to hear a few?
You aren't backing Obama because because it's "right" but because it's easy. You've changed your allegiance, not based on who you consider to be the best person for the job, but on who is the media darling of the moment. Real admirable. The sophomoric taunting is just the cherry on top.
I'm an Edwards fan, and that is who I plan on voting for. I think these right wing slurs drag down the conversation, and I don't think you'd take too kindly to similar treatment of your favored candidate. I wouldn't either. When I see people using RW slurs on Obama for no other reason thn that he's black, I will surely call it out, too.
Now you can go back to unfairly accusing anyone anyone that isn't part of your cult, of racism.
Talk about ludicrous. Mirror check, Terry.
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January 28, 2008 4:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillbillies, white trash, and rednecks are all bad.
We am not. Good and bad among all of us.
I don't even have a pickup. Got three dogs and nary a hound among them.
I don't know any jokes about them
My you have lived a sheltered life. Guess that's good.
I know a few about zealots that plunge blindly into a cult of personality.
Do huh? That's nice.
Want to hear a few?
Not particularly but don't let that stop you.
You aren't backing Obama because because it's "right"
Thought I was.
I think these right wing slurs drag down the conversation
Which rightwing slurs? Are you indulging in a flight of fancy? Mostly I have heard about the Invisible Man's hair and house. Thought he had much more of substance to offer. Do you mean the "slur" from Russ Feingold or what other rightwinger were you referring to? If I am a rightwinger, I wonder who is left?
I don't think you'd take too kindly to similar treatment of your favored candidate.
I don't cotton much to slurs against any candidate. Funny that way I guess.
I even think you should be incensed that John McCain is called a traitor by the new Swiftboat campaign. I think all Americans should be. Just my thing. Guess it's not yours.
To each his own.
What is black BTW? Why is Obama not white as well? What is white? Could you help us out here with definitions. Apartheidists used to to have a commission to carefully weigh these weighty matters. Wasn't easy. Chris Matthews and Tim Russert are not so helpful. Maybe you can be.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 4:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
My what a racist comment.
As a matter of fact it does bother me that McCain is being swiftboated, but he hasn't been so here. You, on the other hand seem fine with swiftboating the Clintons. Hypocrisy abounds.
Why is it so important to you to vote for a black man? Heck why not vote for a white woman, if race and sex is your only concern? Or a little green man, Oh darn, Kucinich dropped out. Or a brown man, dang Richardson dropped out. Well if Edwards paints his face blue, would you vote for him?
Enough nonsense.
How about this. Why not just concentrate on voting for the best candidate? Defending him or her on their merits instead of engaging in sophomoric GOP inspired trash talk. Maybe then you won't get your knickers into such a copious twist.
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January 28, 2008 5:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you accuse me of your racist doggerel, workerbee?
I have chosen to vote for the best IMO.
You can choose whoever or whatever grabs you. You might want to keep the hate talk to yourself but that is up to you.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 6:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
THAT is racist doggerel. All I did was ask you to quit using bigoted GOP/Rove inspired talking points. It's insipid, shallow, and doesn't do much for Obama. Your reaction is typically a bigotted one.
Including accusing others of what you, yourself, are most guilty of.
Best,
workerbee
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January 29, 2008 4:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are confused. Much of the GOP is on your side.
Maybe you would like to direct your complaints of racism towards the wife of Google's founder and CEO.
This is from the racist company she founded:
Your grandmother's mitochondrial DNA was passed down to your mother, and she passed it on to you. Trace your genetic path straight back to the mother of us all using 23andMe's Maternal Ancestry Tree. Then do the same for family, friends and historical figures, and you'll know when and where your most recent shared maternal ancestor walked the Earth. Soon you'll be able to trace paternal ancestry as well.
https://www.23andme.com/ourservice/ancestry/
Maybe you would like to join Mike Huckabee in stopping this godless scientific heresy rather than messing around with John Edwards? JE is another heretic.
Best, Terry
January 29, 2008 6:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look, much of this talk goes back to messages that have come from inside the Clinton camp, even back to 1992 when Bill Clinton emphasized that the Clinton's were a partnership, and in electing Bill we would get "two for one". The portrait of the Clinton's as a two-headed political partnership is one that has been drawn by both their friends and their enemies.
But Bluebell's ironic point about "the Big Guy" and "the little woman", which seems to have gone over everyone's head, is not that this is how we should see the Clintons, but that this is how Bill Clinton appears to view the Clinton "partnership" himself. It sure is beginning to look like Bill Clinton, being long accustomed to the domineering starring role in the Clinton partnership, has thrust himself out into the limelight again because he can't stand being second fiddle. Clinton also has a history of demeaning paternalistic comments about how "proud" he is of Hillary, as though she were his daughter, not his wife.
And I would suggest that much of the engine for this this talk goes to the hypocrisy of the Clinton partnership. Bill Clinton has long sought to portray himself as a champion of women's rights, even though in his his personal behavior he has over and over and over again shown that he is a bit of a pig, and has treated women contemptuously as playthings.
And Hillary Clinton has been an enabler of that behavior, rather than simply its victim. She has helped cover it up, and seems to have been willing to preserve this weird partnership so long as she was able to continue to ride it personal power. They are a sick, dysfunctional team.
January 28, 2008 5:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well I have to say DanK, I just don't see Hillary Clinton the way you do. I see a senator who has been very responsive to her constituents with an accomplished record that matches up against the records of any of the other candidates. I have said from the beginning of this campaign that I respect anyone for rejecting Hillary Clinton because of her substantive positions, in particular but certainly not limited to, her vote in October 2002 about Iraq and her subsequent explanation or spin if you will about that vote, and her really disappointing position on the flag burning issue.
But all this psychobabble about who wears the pants in the family and this stuff about how the Clintons have brought all this stuff on themselves is just nonsense with bite IMO.
January 28, 2008 6:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, Dan, I'm not going to get into this marriage analysis of the Clintons. It's demeaning to say you're proud of your spouse? If you despise the Clintons, if you don't want to vote for Hillary Clinton, that's up to you. I'm not going to defend them any longer, it's just too reminiscent of the nasty, personal and filthy politics of the wackjobs and wingnuts of the 90s who attacked and attacked and attacked the Clintons and the Gores and the so-called liberals and democrats who sat back and let it happen.
I'm not going to discuss it with anyone, anymore. It just isn't worth reading the cruel, meanspirited comments that have nothing to do with politics. Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson all were cheating scoundrels, I don't think that being a human being with faults and frailities should disqualify people from public office.
I'm done with it, it just isn't enjoyable anymore to discuss politics and the primaries on this board.
January 28, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jan, no offense, but if that's all you're aware of, don't you think you should do a little research? She didn't keep medical experts out of the loop, she kept the insurance industry out of the loop. It wasn't doomed by her approach, it was doomed by the full court press the healthcare industry brought upon it and the lies that were written about it by even the "New Republic". I don't think much of her vote on the Iraqi amd. even though 26 dems voted for it, including all the presidential contenders in the senate both in 2004 and 2008, but then I don't think much of Obama's skipping the vote on the defense spending bill of 2008 with the Kyl/Lieberman amd. It was smart of him to skip it, and I understand why he did, but I don't think it was a noble or right thing to do. It took more courage to vote than not to vote, just as it took more courage to stand against the war in 2003 although Obama voted to fund it in 2005 and 06 and 07. ALL candidates are going to act expediently, if they don't they're not going to get elected.
January 27, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
[Hillary] didn't keep medical experts out of the loop, she kept the insurance industry out of the loop
Just ain't so.
The ads were by the insurance companies left out rather than the big friends of Hillary. The plan was a frankenstein monster that promised to make matters worse - not an easy feat for the worst health care plan of any in the developed world. It was all to be paid for by a cigarette tax. Laughable.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am seriously puzzled. Why is hillbilly or billary sexist? The 'little woman' reference is but in the context of the obvious nepotism I could see someone losing their cool and stepping over the line.
January 27, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You'll have to explain how pointing out that this couple is running as a unitary executive candidate is sexist, when I should have thought the opposite-- Hillary running on her own merits, and not on Bill's-- would be true.
January 28, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
My argument may be labored but that doesn’t mean it is a stretch. Reading some of these remarks the past two weeks as slurs is a stretch. Funny, that quote by Donna Brazille was the only thing I did catch this morning in passing and I totally agree with it. Obama has not talked about himself as a black candidate or about race except as a unifier. Steve Clemons relayed the point a while back that Obama’s Ohio victory speech centered on race for fifteen minutes though he never once mentioned race.
Race is an issue of the campaign whatever anyone does or does not say about it. You say Obama is not running as a black candidate but thank God we have a chance to elect a black candidate. And that would be great, as would a woman president, but it is too critical a time to just ask for that of the next president. The next president can be a uniter not a divider but will that solve our problems? I’m not denigrating his message either or saying he is insincere, even if I don’t buy into it.
Maybe I’m just a “prepare for the worst, hope for the best” guy when it comes to politics. Obama has speaks about unity very movingly, but his campaign and surrogates have courted the black vote and propagated accusations against the Clintons that Obama belatedly denied were racial. The Clinton camp has definitely attacked Obama politically. I don’t reject Brazille’s statement or Bill’s or Barack’s or Hillary’s. But it’s all politics and media generated scraps that only serve to take voters’ eyes off the issues.
January 27, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good points. I'm also a "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" kind, myself. But my sense is that there is a time to prepare, and a time to seize the day and that this is of the latter variety. We may just have a different view, and you may be right. But this has the feeling of a different kind of phenomenon.
January 28, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Reed, I agree in every major point. When looking at the way the Clintons have run this campaign so far, I alternate between anger and a feeling of shame and revulsion.
I fully expect, however, for the Hillary and Bill Ever Uninventive Minstrel Show and Flea Market to start saying things that echo almost exactly everything that Obama has been saying, and even stealing his words, phrasing and body language. If Hillary could do it in blackface from now on, she would. She's a caricature of the scheming amoral politician.
It's pathetic, really. But I tell myself that we will probably have allow ourselves to view this couple's psychodrama through to what now seems to be a tragic and inevitable unhappy ending. Bill and Hillary apparently don't have the decency or self-awareness to pull out of this death spiral and spare the nation the pain of watching their show. And I don't want my country governed by the kinds of people who have been running as the dual candidate, or by the people who have been running the Clinton campaign (which is really the same two people.)
Enough is enough.
In contrast, Obama brings the tools to the table, and stands for something, that gives me confidence. Character does count. Authenticity is important. Being who you are is the mark of a sane and resonable person.
In listening to Obama's victory speech last night, I felt that same kind of appreciation for a candidate who, by his person and his personality, represents the first real opportunity for the nation to put race and racial politics in the rear-view mirror. Clinton's use of the old racial divides is an effort to, as Dowd said on MTP this morning, like trying to drive a dagger in the heart of hope. The only way Clinton (or McCain, or Shelby Steele, for that matter wins) is to kill hope.
There is no such thing as false hope, there is only hope denied. It's amazing to me how hard it is for people to let hope bloom again, and to be unwilling to sacrifice for it.
note: edited for typos and to add some more eloquent outrage here and there. :-)
January 27, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is just nasty - minstrel shows and blackface, psychodrama, stealing his body language,(?) no decency, a caricature of the scheming amoral politician. This reminds me of the press's attacks on Gore and the Clintons and kills my hope for the future. Chris Mathews and his cohort win, I give up.
January 27, 2008 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
paDem,
I'll offer a different interpretation of your statement that you expect Clintons "to start saying things that echo almost exactly everything that Obama has been saying, and even stealing his words"
Exactly right: Obama skillfully played the race card through surrogates and media echo chamber immediately after NH all the way to SC - when that suited him. Please don't tell me that he hasn't intended to do that, and that he was just thinking of a new way to uplift America to lofty heights of his spirit. Unfortunately for him that made him a minority candidate - a good thing in SC, but not so good elsewhere (24% of white vote doesn't cut it).
Now that he milked racial tension for what it was worth, he of course wants to be perceived as a new voice for all Americans, hence his magnanimity in response to Bill Clinton's reference to Jesse Jackson. Sorry, but both teams can throw elbows. You played to be a minority candidate - you'll have to live with that on February 5 and beyond, and I hope Clintons are skilled enough in politics to make sure of that.
Please spare me the righteous indignation - Obama is just as cynical (or as skilled) a politician as Clintons, perhaps even more so, since he manages to keep legions of devoted followers who are sure they are seeing the second coming of JFK (who BTW was also a very cynical and skilled politician, and a great president).
Its policy thinking depth and readiness to govern that contrasts HRC and Obama, and where HRC has a huge advantage. Remember that for all his foreign policy experience (far superior to that of Obama), JFK got us into disasters of the Bay of Pigs and Vietnam. Of course he also saved the world from nuclear holocaust during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Think whose team would you want in the White House in October 1962 - HRC's or Obama's? I vote for HRC, which I will do on 2/5.
Speaking of crisis - I don't buy all the talk about perils of co-presidency. Bill has been brought in to help in a crisis situation after Iowa. I'm sure that if and when the crisis will be contained, he'll immediately go back into the background - HRC doesn't impress me as a person unable to control her working environment, but its sure a great advantage to be able to use a resource such as Bill Clinton in time of crisis. Unless of course its a crisis created by Bill himself...
January 28, 2008 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anatole,
Obama skillfully played the race card
Would you please be so kind as to detail any evidence you have as to the substance of this charge?
I believe it to be a loose and venomous charge with no evidence that any reasonable person should believe. All I have seen is that Obama went to African-American churches, appeared with Oprah Winfrey, the things that every candidate does with any ethnic group, their own or others.
BTW did you note that the Obama campaign provided no "walking around" money to African-American ministers? That was a new one for me reported just this past Sunday. Perhaps they are all lying to me. I am very naive about such things. I thought they all played that game but Obama's campaign didn't play like Mr. and Mrs. Bill. Fancy that.
Do you have something more? Can you find some code words hidden from this outsider? Some secret handshake for the brothers and sisters? I admit again great naivete in the matter.
Obama is just as cynical (or as skilled) a politician as Clintons
"They are all liars and crooks" doesn't do it for me.
Few rise to the level of a Paul Simon, who was also an Illinois politician. Simon was a reform politician ragged on for being too nicey nice when he ran for president. Would have made a great president IMO, perhaps another Vaclav Havel of the Velvet Revolution. We will never know now.
Paul Simon wanted to do for people who couldn't help themselves and voters had been set against that. Voters mostly wanted thieves and liars who would share the bounty. They got the Clintons and Bushes, who did for the corporations and upper classes and shafted the poor and workers.
Its policy thinking depth and readiness to govern that contrasts HRC and Obama
Do tell us about this policy depth?
Surely you don't mean finding the right drapes and furnishings and chinaware for the White House? The way to conduct state dinners? Do you mean the way to conduct wars? What do you mean?
Remember that for all his foreign policy experience (far superior to that of Obama), JFK got us into disasters of the Bay of Pigs and Vietnam.
What foreign policy experience was that? I suffered more damage to my person from a rabid JFK fan when I told him of the war that JFK would surely get us into than from a Viet Cong bomb. I think I had more foreign policy experience than that fine fellow. Bombs tend to impress one as does living overseas. My myopic view for sure.
he also saved the world from nuclear holocaust during the Cuban Missile Crisis
Didn't JFK initiate that crisis or was it another president? How exactly did JFK save us? Wasn't he the one threatening nuclear holocaust or was it somebody else? My memory is no longer as perfect as it never was.
Vote for the reprobate of your choice. My vote goes to the best person I can find for the job. I don't believe all are crooks and liars but then I have already admitted to distressing and shameful naivete. Maybe you can help us all here with your worldly wisdom.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 3:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Terry,
"Obama skillfully played the race card
Would you please be so kind as to detail any evidence you have as to the substance of this charge?"
See, e.g. what Obama's national co-chair said the morning after NH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA See also coordinated and skillful campaign of fanning the bogus outrage regarding HRC's King - Johnson comments. If you don't think that those are (not strongly coded) code words and (not so) secret handshakes, well - to everyone according to his faith.
"What foreign policy experience was that [re JFK]?"
For an informative JFK-Obama comparison in this area see http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0801w.widmer.html
"Didn't JFK initiate that crisis or was it another president? How exactly did JFK save us?"
There are tons of sources on that. As a result of actions by JFK and his team Soviet nuclear weapons and first-strike missiles have been taken off Cuba, or turned back from the delivery route in the Atlantic, without a war.
"My vote goes to the best person I can find for the job." So does mine
"I don't believe all are crooks and liars but then I have already admitted to distressing and shameful naivete. Maybe you can help us all here with your worldly wisdom."
I'm sure Presidents Simon, Gore and Kerry would be able to provide necessary references. Remember that other Illinois politician: "Mr. Stevenson, you'll get the vote of every thinking man. --Thank you, but I need a majority to win."
Regards, Anatol
January 28, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anatole,
Your evidence that Obama is playing a race card seems - ummm - dubious to me:
Jesse Jackson, Jr.'s, doubt about Hillary's "tears" [there were none as I think Josh pointed out] was viewed far more cynically and bluntly by John Edwards in person. I don't find it remarkable that Jesse Jackson, Jr., as an ethnic African-American would talk about the campaign moving to South Carolina and a large African-American community. Do you? The you tube recording is here for anyone that wishes to look at the evidence presented:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA
What dirty birds did this fanning and who originated the outrage? Isn't Martin Luther King a national symbol BTW rather than just an African-American icon. Even Romney seems to have fibbed a bit about his daddy marching with Dr. King. Why would he do that if Dr. King just belongs to the African-American community?
I accept that Hillary meant that civil rights marchers needed political action but I see it quite differently myself. One of the heroes of the Civil Rights Law was Everett Dirksen, if you want to call him that. I wouldn't. He bowed to pressure in my mind from a public not happy with the outrage of segregation and the attacks on marchers.
Your link to the Washington Monthly article didn't work for me. Frankly I don't think much of the source but that's my own POV.
What does the defeat of very different politicians under varying circumstances have to do with anything?
The defeat of Simon and other real Democrats in a wave of cynicism and rightwing turn to Clinton and DLC Republicanism was a real tragedy for all America IMO. We have never recovered. The choice for too long has been between Republicans Heavy and Light.
All JMO.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 9:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Terry,
Thanks for the reply. Re: Jesse Jackson Jr. - listen to insistently and repeatedly (obviously premeditated and scripted) inserted references to the victims of Katrina, for whom Hillary HASN't cried. I don't think Obama's campaign could have said "Hillary cried for herself, but not for us, the black people. Let's show her in SC!" any more clearly with (barely) plausible deniability.
Re: the link. Please concatenate both lines from my reply in the address bar.
"What does the defeat of very different politicians under varying circumstances have to do with anything?" It has to do with the fact that you need to be cynical and to fight with all weapons available to win. Both Clintons and Obama know that, and do that. Obama's cynicism is (slightly) more offputting to me, because its consiously hidden behind carefully maintained facade of idealism, unity, new dawn, etc. (Remember our latest Uniter, not Divider? I do). Obama surely knows how to fight dirty and (hopefully) how to get elected (although he has never run against serious Republican opposition). What he doesn't know is how to govern, and if he'll win the Presidency, he'll come to the office without a clear policy mandate - see today's column by Krugman in NYT.
Cheers,
--Anatol
January 28, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
We don't know that Obama doesn't know how to govern, only that he has not been a governor. We also know the same about Clinton. Both have out out position papers.
I don't think it follows from the campaign so far that Obama would arrive without policy mandate, except to the extent that Clinton would be in the same sitution. Certainly, if either wins by a commanding majority there will be a mandate to do something, which presumably would be the stated positions and party platform.
We knew the previous "Uniter" talk was just fluff, and we also know it's mainly fluff from Obama. But some of us think O has better odds than H, and some of us were happier to see Bill doing a Carter thing, using his statue in non-political ways.
January 28, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
In the end it will be decided by who has the most delegates and that will be pretty much decided on Super Tuesday. As to the general election the polls I've seen show either Hillary or Obama defeating any Republican but McCain easily. If the Republican establishment has their way and nominates Romney, the Democrats could run Donald Duck and take it.
However if the Republican establishment hold their noses and nominate McCain, they could keep the White House. To give you an example, yesterday I read an interview with the very progressive Tony Judt in a Spanish newspaper. They asked him about the American elections and he said, that Obama was too inexperienced, Hillary not to be trusted and on the Republican side he found McCain interesting although he didn't agree with practically anything he said. I think that is a brilliant summing up of the situation. In November when the voters finally find themselves alone in the voting booth....
http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/
January 27, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's an AP piece from MichiganLive that may be of interest to those who see Super Tuesday as the deciding factor...
~OGD~
January 27, 2008 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is too inexperienced? I think that is what most voters want.
January 27, 2008 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's sure what Obama is selling: I'm just the guy to fix your car because I don't even know how it works.
Put DC in the place of car and I think the quote is almost verbatim.
January 27, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't fool yourself. St. McCain is going to be the nominee of the Republican Party. Then where are we since polls show him beating Clinton and Obama even now?
January 27, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hoppy in Sacramento
January 27, 2008 6:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm in the wind, because I like all three candidates.
I am a woman who thinks Hillary is competant and would make a good chief executive. I have been inclined to support her, throughout this mess.
They've all played tricks during this campaign, and anyone who thinks they haven't, is delusional. The press, the media, the oh-my-god-talking-heads have pilloried Hillary for four years, and that makes me angry and resentful and inclined to vote for her. But...
...that same resentment makes me believe that Hillary is so damaged by this long, sad campaign, that she couldn't win in the general election. Imagine what will happen to her when the republicans, who have perfected lies and distortions, get a "Go" button on Hillary. Every moment of Bill's mistakes will be fair game. Every revision of reality will become a talking point for the mean spirit which pervades our political process.
I'm worried that an African-American will have a hard time winning in America, but I actually think it would be harder for a woman, particularly (I'm sorry, Hillary) this woman.
Listen to Obama's speech in South Carolina. I actually repeated, with his audience, "Yes, we can." Perhaps those of us residing in the Super Tuesday states should give him a shot. It's been a long time since we've been offered Hope.
January 27, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Charity,
This is a difficult choice, and I wish you well as you struggle with it.
January 27, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that it is far more difficult for a woman to run for the presidency. I haven't seen this much overt sexism in a very long time. It's really filthy and disgusting and if this same kind of stereotyping attack was aimed at Obama you'd be hearing the screams and agony of the Obama supporters.
January 27, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, pleez. I am a 51-year-old woman and feminist. I do not support someone, female or male, who touts "experience" as a result of being married to a man, and who has supported the WRONG stuff (Iraq, flag burning legislation, etc.) and been basically a corporate tool. Gender plays no role in this.
January 27, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, yes, her role as first lady isn't experience because she wasn't paid for it. And of course, since that's all they see, that's all they think there is. It never occurs to them to look at her CV.
January 27, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you about her experience, however, she needs to show some true feminist grit and tell her husband to STFU. I didn't think he was hurting her until the aftermath of South Carolina. She must not let Bill eclipse her, and she's in danger of it now.
January 27, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, here's the thing about that. The nasty remarks about her being "the little woman" or having a career because she married Clinton are not truthful. It is unfair to criticize her for having a spouse campaigning for her as it would be to criticize the other candidates for having their spouses campaign for them. Why should it be a political fault that she's married to a former president? Why is that fodder for political attacks and why should she not be able to have a career too? Isn't a tad on the sexist side to punish her for that, to assume that she must be dumb and incapable of running for office because she's married?
The other side to this is that Bill Clinton helped her come in second in this race - he is a good campaigner and he is still popular. So wouldn't that be rather foolish of her not to take advantage of that?
January 27, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
She already has a political office, a very important political office but President of the United States is like no other office on earth and there is no provision in the US Constitution for her sharing it with her spouse.
January 28, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I don't claim experience in my husband's career because I'm married to him, and he doesn't claim experience in mine (I hope, because he has none). I suppose she wasn't capable of running for office herself?
January 27, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, she did.
January 27, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but the "experience" she claims is greater than Obama's is her "35 years", not her less than 6.
January 27, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, but to go back to your earlier point about your and your husband's careers, I am assuming that your two-career marriage is the more typical one where the two are completely separate - for example, husband's a doctor, wife's a lawyer, or vice versa.
In the Clinton's case it's different, since both participated in the same activities. Hillary was never "just" a First Lady. She was involved in some way. More like, say Husband CEO of a small business, wife keeping the books, managing office, whatever. There's experience there, but it's not quite clear how much it might count for.
So while it might not count as 35, I think it counts for more than 6.
January 27, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
She did run for office - the United States Senate. She won, too. Secondly, being the spouse of the president of the United States would provide experience for anyone who wanted to learn and was bright enough to absorb it.
Have you actually ever read her CV? She worked with legislators all through his presidency, pushing at least two bills through the legislature and founded a new bureau in the Justice Dept. on behalf of women's safety, she traveled all over the world representing this country, she was by all accounts his closest advisor, not to mention living over the shop for eight years. If Michelle Obama leaves the White House without the know-how and wherewithal to run this nation, I'd be very surprised because from what I've read she is just as intelligent as he is.
January 27, 2008 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
BevD, don't get me wrong - I'll vote for her if she's nominated, as I've made clear before. I just think her "experience" is overblown - and Obama has "experience" too - he has reason to be able to build bridges with people from Africa and the Middle East because of his childhood, he's organized at a grassroots level, he's worked in local politics, and he's been in the Senate.
The Clinton presidency began during a time when Democrats were weak, and Bill Clinton had to fight for everything that was done during his administration. I am not a Bill or Hillery hater at all. But let's face it - they are not coalition builders - they are divisive. And frankly, their sliming of the other two candidates has made me ill. Their blatant misrepresentation of Obama's comments about Reagan were unethical and unseemly. I don't respect them for that and I don't think it's merely "tough" - I think it's dishonest. If the Clintons can't have an intellectual truthful debate with other Democrats about the issues, then I lose respect for them, pure and simple. I think it's a really bad precedent to have a family member claim credit for the accomplishments of a relative as well - I'm not sure whether it was a TPM forum or another one, but there's a reason why nepotism is considered a bad thing. And we can't escape from the fact that Hillary is a neocon.
January 27, 2008 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think her experience is overblown, I just think the country needs a new kind of "experience".
I might point out that the Clintons said nothing about Obama's remarks about Reagan. In the interview with the Nevada newspaper editors, Obama made two statements - one about Reagan changing the direction of the country, and another where Obama said that the republican party was the party of ideas for the last ten or fifteen years. Clinton's comments were directed at that comment. I don't know about you, but I don't think the republicans were the party of ideas for the last ten or fifteen years is true, unless you think taking away from the poor to give to the rich qualifies as an idea.
I don't agree with Obama's comments about Reagan either, for the record. I don't think that Reagan changed to direction in this country to one of hope and optimism, in fact, I think he did more to change the direction to greed, selfishness and individualism than any other president until Bush Jr.
I understand perfectly well what Obama was getting at, I just do not agree with him.
January 27, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was pandering. They all do it.
CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com
January 27, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it was his Sister Souljah moment - signalling to moderates that he will steer a center course.
January 27, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama made it very clear what he meant by his comments (and, by the way, I've seen the comments as soundbites in isolation, not in a transcript of an entire interview - have you seen more?). And what he meant was that Reagan was able to mobilize a movement (a movement that he didn't agree with) to change the trajectory of politics in America. I agree with Obama that Reagan did that, and I agree with you and with Obama that what Reagan did was destructive to the country. Where I think Hillary was disingenuous is when she claimed during the debate (and at other times) that Obama "liked" Reagan: this is the quote: "the facts are that he has said in the last week that he really liked the ideas of the Republicans over the last 10 to 15 years, and we can give you the exact quote." He never said that he liked the ideas. He said that the Republicans had ideas - he clarified ad nauseum that the ideas weren't good. In fact, the Republicans have had a lot of new ideas which lots of people (including Congressional Democrats and in some cases Hillary Clinton and John Edwards) got behind: preemptive war, record deficits, war with tax cuts, rewarding financial institutions for bilking the poor, etc. All of those Republican new and bad ideas passed with Democratic support.
January 27, 2008 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry for the double post - cancelled my submission, but it didn't work. :-(
January 27, 2008 6:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Try editing the one you don't want - replacing all text with "duplicate deleted by author"
January 27, 2008 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks!
January 27, 2008 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
[Duplicate deleted by author.]
January 27, 2008 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Hillary Clinton made very clear what she meant by her King/LBJ comments. She had to explain it over and over. Wasn't it dishonest of Obama's surrogates to misrepresent her remarks? I also read the interview in which Obama said those things - I just disagree with his assessment. It was intellectually dishonest of Obama to misrepresent his views on social security and attack Hillary Clinton now for the very same position he espoused in his book, "Audacity of Hope". In "Audacity of Hope" on p.156/157 Obama said, "Reagan's central insight that the liberal welfare state had grown too complacent and overly bureaucratic with democratic policy makers more concerned with slicing the economic pie rather than growing the economic pie contained a good deal of truth." (That's straight out of the DLC handbook.) Obama also said in his book, p31, "That Reagan's message found such a receptive audience spoke not only to his skills as a communicator, it also spoke to the failures of liberal govt." So maybe Clinton's remarks weren't so far off the reservation after all.
So where did Hillary Clinton say that Obama "liked Reagan?" Could it be that you've been spun here? Obama said that the republican party has been the party of ideas for the last 10/15 years, you don't think that was guaranteed to piss off both Clintons? Barney Frank had a few choice words to say about that comment. I can't say it made dems very happy to hear that. So you see, it isn't as simple as people think it is and maybe both sides are doing a little "misrepresentation".
January 27, 2008 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, she said in the debate that Obama "liked the ideas of the Republicans". (The quote is in the following entry - I accidentally posted a duplicate.) By the way, I strongly believe in a welfare state, and support socialized infrastructure such as medicine, public transportation, child care and a meaningful subsistence "safety net", but the welfare state as it existed in the seventies did have some problems creating disincentives for people to work or to have two parent families. The Republican "cure" was worse than the disease, of course, but the system needed reform, and Democrats were struggling to find humane ways to reform it. I'm not at all bothered by the fact that Obama, as a coalition-builder, gave a fairly meaningless rhetorical nod to the Republican folk-hero, and find it somewhat hypocritical that Hillary Clinton, who's running on her husband's record, would complain about Obama's statement when her husband signed Newt Gingrich's contract with America into law. Maybe he had excuses, but hey - he's no purist. And yes, the Republicans did have the ideas for the last 10-15 years as I pointed out in my nonsequential post. They were bad ones, but they were ideas that Democrats followed right along with.
January 27, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well obviously he seems to have agreed with those ideas according to his book. So it would seem to follow that both are being misrepresented and a tad hypocritical. The difference is that I see all the candidates pandering, misrepresenting, distorting and preening. It's campaign rhetoric.
January 27, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
BevD, perhaps your memory is incomplete: there were attacks aimed at Obama in SC, by your candidate's surrogates and probably with her tacit approval. There were 'screams', and rightly so. I don't remember if you were upset about those attacks...? The tone of this comment seems totally focused on a one-sided victimhood that seems more sour grapes than anything else. You tend to rely on personal invective a lot, so I know what I'm letting myself in for here.
I don't like attacks on Hillary on purely gender grounds. I don't think that gender should be the determining factor in this race, but we're faced with a choice here between two good things, what I feel are brilliance and competence on the one hand, and brilliance and the potential for true greatness on the other. I'm left with a choice that is based on character and judgement, not gender.
I prefer the greatness alternative.
January 27, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
All three campaigns have surrogates fighting for them. All three campaigns release talking points to the press and all three candidates are taking advantage of perceived faults and mistakes.
Speaking of victimhood (which I noticed is always applied to women) there has not been one article about the sexist, misogynistic attacks on Hillary Clinton. I can absolutely guarantee that if those stereotypical remarks were made about Obama, everyone and his brother would be having fits. I don't care who you're voting for, but the attacks on Hillary Clinton on this board are echoes of the wingnut wackjobs that have run and continue to run our political discourse.
Lastly, it would seem that you're the one focused on personal attack and invective. Did I criticize the poster, did I make personal remarks? No, I commented on the post.
January 27, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
She should find a surrogate "hatchetman" other than Bill. It isn't working.
January 27, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bev
I agree with you completely that Hillary has been the target of overt sexism. It has been going on for a long time. Though I support Obama I felt it was a positive development that Hillary won New Hampshire because of the hateful sexist comments being made against Her. However, this is not something coming out of the Obama campaign. It is coming from the Republican right and their mouthpieces in the mass media. I wish I could support her to express my opposition to this hatefullness, but there is another issue here that has precedence -- I am no longer interested in seeing the Bill Clinton melodrama played out in the white house for the next 8 years.
January 27, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say it was coming from the Obama campaign.
January 27, 2008 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am a middle-aged white woman who was for Edwards but now is for Obama. I will vote for Clinton if she's nominated, but she has always been my last choice, for being wrong on the war and for sponsoring an unconstitutional flag burning bill. (I know that Edwards's voting record also did not live up to his current rhetoric, but I give him a pass for having represented North Carolinians.) As for Obama's "inexperience", I think that's a canard. Obama has good judgment, and seems to want to listen to a number of smart people. He has personal experience living in other countries, so is multicultural in a way that none of the other candidates are. He seems to trust the people to understand critical issues - he lays it to them straight. I'm tired of politicians who inform the public on some kind of "need to know" basis. I think Obama believes in participatory democracy, and second to a progressive political agenda, that's a priority that is attracting my vote.
January 27, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dee Dee, two great minds think alike. Are we to be stuck always with a bunch of mediocre dweebs, who can't think straight? :-)
I know that Edwards's voting record also did not live up to his current rhetoric, but I give him a pass for having represented North Carolinians.
For me, Edwards was the only one speaking the language of liberalism. Certainly his record was more than checkered. From health care to trade, even his current proposals did not quite fulfill the rhetoric. I personally find his accepting whole hog the superficial and misconceived proposals of Al Gore on energy mindless. The damage to the planet from burning fossil fuels is enormous but the most obvious solutions are mostly ignored in favor of relatively lightweights.
Still and all Edwards' Two Americas was a shining beacon of light in the darkness. If you don't thrill to his condemnation of the "moneyed interests" that so worried the very founders of the nation, you're no liberal. You're a Clinton progressive or something.
The Edwards' rhetoric seems to have changed to allow only for the middle class in Edwards' America and so has the man. Edwards joined in the attack on Obama on the totally bogus lie of the Clinton machine that Obama didn't support abortion rights because of Obama's "present" votes as a state senator - a strategy designed by abortion supporters in Illinois. One of the leaders has switched from Hillary to Obama because of Hillary's deception.
With a somewhat heavy heart, I am switching my vote from Edwards to Obama. The race bashing from Hillary is way, way too ugly in any case. It is a pure delight that the voters of South Carolina, of all places, punished it so thoroughly. I am inclined to believe there will be follow through on Super Tuesday.
Hope so anyway.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Terry - you said it - I think we do see eye to eye. I'm sorry not to be able to support the woman candidate but, for the most part, she just doesn't represent what I believe.
January 27, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Edwards was only in the senate for one term. How could you expect him to have a "record?" Of all the candidates, Edwards is more compassionate, more empathetic and has the true interests of the people in his heart.
January 27, 2008 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I sent money to Edwards, because I agree that his message is the one I most agree with. But it sure does give me pause that he voted for the horrendous bankruptcy bill in 2001 which was instrumental in causing hardship to poor people, even those whose impoverishment was caused by catastrophic medical crises. And the war. Etc. Again, I love the guy and what he's saying now, but none of the three passes any kind of substantive sainthood test.
January 27, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well none of them are going to pass the sainthood test. We're not going to agree with all three on each and every issue, they're humans and until we find something better that's all we're going to have.
January 27, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know why I love Obama? He is a constitutional lawyer. And was editor of the Harvard Law Review.
Our constitution has been under attack for the last 7 years.
I believe that this is the defining attribute of Obama. He believes in the law, our constitution and American exceptionalism. I want to see one president that believes in these things as strongly as I do, before I die.
Troll_Bait
January 27, 2008 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like that about him too. And I switched from Edwards because I believe in the promise he holds. I just hope he lives up to it. (He could start by supporting those who are working against telecommunications company immunity as part of the FISA amendments).
January 27, 2008 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
With respect, I think your read on the race issue is completely wrong and it is something the Clinton camp is counting on.
Most of the injection of "race" has been much ado about nothing. Some of it has been real, but most has not--the flap about Pres. Johnson was the biggest nothing, but there have been others as well. The Obama camp, including you Mr. Hundt, are falling right into the trap they have so cleverly laid for Obama and company.
They are not enticing white voters who are racist. What they are doing is getting the Obama people to focus on race because it has been the Obama camp and all their protestations and indignant responses that have kept things focused on this subject in the media. The objective is to make Obama the black candidate he has so pointedly tried not to be up until now and to keep him and his campaign off message. It has worked superbly and this post, Mr. Hundt, is proof of how very well it has worked and continues to work.
By reducing the campaign essentially to idiotic trivialities and much fussing and sqwuaking by Obama's people about race, race-baiting, the mean-spirited injection of racial politics and so-forth, the Clinton campaign remains dominant in most Super Tuesday states. Yes, Obama is formidable and has lots of money but his team doesn't have half the combat experience the Clinton camp has and it shows.
In most Super Tuesday states, Clinton is way ahead and will remain so. Half or more of John Edwards' support would go to Clinton were he not in the race. In many states, Edwards' absence would give Clinton a clear majority of votes, not just a plurality. Obama should have been expanding his message to those states since NH, but instead all the eyes and ears of the Obama campaign and the media--thus, the nation's voters, have been focusing on race.
So, while the Obama people have been all flustered and indignant and very focused on consolidating the support of the black vote in SC these last couple of weeks, little has changed in the Super Tuesday states except that all the voters in those states have been served up stories about Obama's increasing black support. Voters won't remember the inside baseball details of who made what racially tinged remark or who infered this or that. They will remember that it was a massive turnout in the black community for Obama that won the day. The cable talking heads talked of little else last night. So, presto chango! Voila! Obama is now the black candidate he did not want to be, has spent two weeks helping the Clinton's make him that candidate and has completely lost the opportunity to get his message out during that period of time.
Campaigns are strategic games and the Clinton campaign, in a sense, decided they could lose SC and use Obama's victory against him in a very subtle way. Reprehensible? Yes. Smart strategic move on the part of the Clintons? Probably so.
Everyone is distracted now from the real numbers and how voters are breaking out in all those Super Tuesday states. They calculate (correctly I believe) that Obama on his own cannot turn those numbers around. He can make a go of it, he will certainly be competitive but he cannot overtake Hillary because of the name ID advantage she has, her support among white women, and frankly the fact that the Obama campaign remains as unagressive as it has always been about cutting into her support. Last fall, during the inevitability of Hillary media orgy, Obama's campaign was being criticized for not stepping up to the plate and being more agressive. They have ramped it up ever so slightly, but the fundamentals really haven't changed much at all. Obama has never really taken an effective shot at Hillary and has not really landed any effective blows. The blows that have hurt Hillary most have not come from Obama, but instead have come from the media when they decided they wanted to see more of a race and not a coronation. Now that they've evened up the score a bit, it's unlikely they will turn on her a second time without major cause.
I am convinced that one of the reason Hillary took the robocall shot at Edwards was because they were trying to take him out and possibly humiliate him in SC. His numbers were edging upward steadily in the polls but then fell slightly after the robocall attack was unleashed, but they moved too late and were unable to deliver a knockout blow to him. As long as Edwards remains, Hillary cannot clinch victory. The Clinton camp is well aware of this. Again, here's where the Obama camps lightweight status is revealed. They have been trying to peel away Edwards' voters and to try and knock him out when their focus (if they want to win) should be on hammering Hillary and stripping her core support (white women) away from her. Edwards, as the SC exit polls clearly showed is winning white men. And at least half of those white guys would likely vote for Hillary if Edwards wasn't in the race. In states where she already is in the high forties, this puts her over the top and the day after Super Tuesday headlines are: Clinton Wins Big!
I do believe it more than likely that neither Obama nor Clinton can win the general election. I wish it were otherwise, but believe that's just the way it is. What these last few weeks have shown though, is that the Clinton campaign is far more saavy, experienced and willing to do "whatever it takes" than the Obama camp.
My own preference is for Edwards who supports the policies I want to see and who has been the only candidate talking about these issues consistently throughout the campaign. The things that matter to me in 2008 are not breaking the glass ceiling or making history with an inspirational leader. I want to see the restoration of the Democratic Party's Democratic wing and a reversal of this pattern of capitulation and surrender to every Republican whim. What matters to me is fighting back effectively against the decades of corporate control of the government which is the root cause of almost all the bad stuff that is going on and the bulwark that has stood in the way of all our shared policy aims for 30 plus years.
I believe the Democratic Party is going to miss an historic opportunity in 08 to enoy a landslide of 1964 proportions if we nominate either Clinton or Obama. Such a landslide might actually put us in position to establish national health care, end the war, institute publicly funded elections and lots of other progressive initiatives that the lilly-livered Democrats lie Harry Reid would never accomplish in a thousand years without a large Democratic majority insisting on passing the bills necessary to achieve the things we want and not just whatever the monied interests say is okay.
With Clinton and Obama the best we could hope for is a razor thin victory for President and continued stalemate in Congress because Democratic margins will not increase considerably if the Presidential contest is close. But, if we're going down that road, as it appears we will, I'd personally rather see Obama be the nominee. Unfortunately, I think Hillary has a better team, that is focused, cold blooded and relentless, and they are likely to continue to outmanuever the Obama team as the primaries proceed barring any unforseen development. Focusing the Obama camp on race since NH has achieved precisely what the Clinton camp was shooting for. Continued focus in the media and elsewhere on race only helps Clinton more.
January 27, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
In most Super Tuesday states, Clinton is way ahead and will remain so.
Betcha you are wrong if you are saying there won't be a significant impact from the South Carolina results.
I believe the Democratic Party is going to miss an historic opportunity in 08 to enoy a landslide of 1964 proportions if we nominate either Clinton or Obama.
Only prophets and fools know the future and there seem to be many more fools than prophets.
This fool believes you are dead wrong.
The only question I have is whether Obama will go beyond his rhetoric. Sure hope he is lying? :-)
All hope is lost if Mr. and Mrs. Bill are nominated and/or elected.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really do hope you're right. But I see no evidence to indicate that is the case.
January 27, 2008 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really do hope you're right. But I see no evidence to indicate that is the case.
My evidence may not be persuasive but it is what this convert is hanging his hat on:
- Obama has raised money away from the PAC's and even netroots. He has energized a mass movement among the young that has crossed all the gender and racial lines drawn by the like of Chris Matthews to Bill and Hillary Clinton.
- Obama has made some very innovative proposals on which light has not been shined. I was drawn to Obama by his proposal that stiltified air among the political scientists at the FDA be freshened up by personal medicine rather than one-size-fits-all.
- Obama is clearly the most intelligent of the candidates. That is a handicap that has been noted by many commentators. The empty sloganeering does not come easily to Obama like i9t does to the usual run of politicians.
- Obama has gotten praise for his efforts in the Senate by my ideal of a liberal senator, Russ Feingold. His backers span almost the entire breadth of the Democratic Party.
- Obama turned what once seemed certain defeat in South Carolina into a landslide victory.
Hope for the man I think even though he isn't the liberal I would prefer.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come on, Terry... Obama is intelligent but I'm not sure how one could even begin to quantify his intelligence in a way that would let them say he's smarter than Hillary, who is also a very, very smart person.
And I'm not saying Hillary's smarter than Obama. They're both well above average, obviously. But one over the other? Hard to say. Very hard to say.
Smarter than Bush, though. Both of them. That's easy.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
IQ tests quantify intelligence and are not only misleading but it is highly doubtful they truly measure intelligence at all.
For instance, there is the incredible conundrum that questions asking for a definition often have two right answers. The person dawdling over the question trying to pick the righter answer will naturally score lower than the braindead routineer who senses the righter answer, if he even knows there are two answers.
Which is the more intelligent?
Intelligence has always been a terrible handicap in seeking elective office. People complained mightily about Adlai Stevenson using words that were too abstruse for his audience. I always wondered what some of those words might have been. For certain Eisenhower had no such problem.
IQ tests according to one source showed Nixon far more intelligent than JFK though Nixon was no match at all for JFK in a debate. A true dunce like Reagan could be an excellent debater.
I could go on and on but I don't think there is any doubt that Obama has trouble finding ready pat answers that come so easily to Hillary. Richardson was pure comedy. He had trouble remembering both solar and wind in the alternative energy catechism laid down by the prophet Al Gore.
For me the ability to study and analyze a problem rather than to just rattle out answers like a parrot is one excellent measure of intelligence. Have to admit, Richardson couldn't even do that.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you say that Hillary is smarter than Obama you risk being called a racist
If you say Obama is smarter than Hillary, you risk being called a sexist
Asume one has to be smarter than the other then if follows logically that
You are either a racist or a sexist
It's all childish "gotcha" crap
January 27, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, pretty good analysis even though I don't agree with many parts of it. I don't think that the punditocracy's highlighting any "race issues" is a clever way to make Obama the black candidate nor that they simply want to see a horserace. I think they want McCain to be president and fear that Hillary can beat him.
I gave you a 5 not so much as a sympathy rating but I admire your analytical skills.
January 27, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oleeb:
I agree heartily with many of the things you say.
I also resent being in a position where I am actually sitting in my kitchen thinking about where my one, individual Super Tuesday vote should be placed, strategically, rather than going with my heart on which candidate I prefer.
One thought on the electability of Obama: I think the "young" and "inexperienced" critiques may have less clout in the general election, if McCain is the opposing candidate. "Young" can also be "fresh," and stand for change by its very nature (whether valid or not); but it has a better melody when the "experienced" candidate is 72 years old. For all his gravitas and genuine accomplishment, McCain would have a hard time representing substantive change. And change is what many Americans, of all persuasions, are looking for.
I also think it's easier to criticize a woman (witness what's happened) than an African-American, as the words Chris Matthews and his friends have been applying (quiet, stereotypical words like "shrill," for example), would rain considerably more hell-fire on the press if they were stereotypical words being used re: an African-American candidate. The press coverage of Hillary has been laced with such descriptive words, and it's part of the angry support of women, that they have felt each such barb.
January 27, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
You may be right, but seems to me that the "young and inexperienced" criticism will be a powerful one against Obama by the forces of McCain and Company. Over and above that, it is legitimate in the sense that Obama's experience doesn't even compare to McCain's in terms of years of service or depth of experience.
I doubt the GOP has anything to lose by continuing to campaign as racists. Only Democrats are damaged by being racist. The GOP has built it's ascendancy on racism. They won't even need to be overtly racist against Obama. They can use all sorts of other terms to push the racist fear buttons in the hearts of millions of white people. I wish it weren't true but I know that it is.
As for it being easier to criticize a woman that might be correct. In the case of Hillary though, I think we have a unique situation where the criticisms levelled at her are seen less as criticisms of a woman per se. They are viewed mostly, not always, but mostly as just criticism of her. She has been a target for a long time and an easy one.
In any event, I think either one of them will be very weak candidates in the general given their obvious vulnerabilities----all of which the Republicans will exploit with great gusto and joy. Meanwhile, St. McCain, darling of the press corps for years will be hailed as the comeback candidate, Mr. Straight Talk, and given a free pass the whole way to the White House. De Ja Vu anyone?
January 27, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Enter Reed Hundt, concern troll.
What is with all the moralizing we're hearing from Obama supporters? Do you all not realize that this "Bill Clinton went too far" nonsense is just a campaign tactic that Obama and his ilk have been playing up to good effect? This is not a new kind of politics, it's the old art of misdirection. I doubt it will work past South Carolina which had demographic advantages for Obama that he doesn't want to talk about.
The attacks on the Clintons, the accusations that they're exposing the country to a "psychodrama" or that Bill Clinton is an out of control egomaniac are all sick and have been ripped right out of the right wing playbook of the 1990s. If you're an Obama supporter who is talking about the Clintons in that way you should be ashamed. You're certainly not living up to Obama's ideals. But then, Obama doesn't live up to those ideals either. He just talks pretty about them.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agreed with you until last night.
January 27, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're a smart commenter, sTiVo. So what is it you think I'm missing? Or that you think I'm either resisting or am slow to get? Is it about tactics or ethics?
Honest questions, of course. No baiting!
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Bill's ungracious remarks about Jesse Jackson in 1984 and '88 after he had just gotten his ass kicked, crossed a line he shouldn't have crossed. It seems to be suggesting "a black man just can't win".
I had no problems with his earlier remarks on Obama's excessive focus on one great speech which wasn't followed up on in the Senate, or his attempting to "work the refs" in the media who weren't giving Hillary a fair shake. He was right on both points.
But these remarks put a racial tinge on things that may hurt in November if Hillary gets the nomination. This should stop. If the white voters in the Super Tuesday states are going to go against Obama for racist reasons,
so be it. Bill Clinton should not want his fingerprints anywhere near it.
January 27, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't quite see it that way but I don't dispute you on any point, if that makes any sense.
I'm really sure that no matter who wins the media is going to burden our candidate by repeating ad nauseum, stories about voters who feel left out. If Hillary wins, the media will say, until it becomes true, that African Americans and the youth feel cheated, left out, whatever. If Obama wins, the media will say the same about Boomer aged women. It could well become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Has Bill Clinton's behavior added to that coming narrative. You say yes. You're probably right. I say that narrative is coming anyway.
I also say, with regards to the Jackson remarks, that Obama is happy to be "the black candidate" when it suits him. Witness his association with Jesse Jackson's son. Hard to fault Obama for that, of course. Why shouldn't he run as who he is. And, admittedly, Bill ran a similar style when he didn't have an actual black opponent.
Anyway, thanks for elaborating. Good stuff.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't disagree that the media spiders will continue to spin their nasty webs, regardless. But no point giving them ammunition for no good reason. I see no point of view in which Bill's remarks last night did Hillary any good.
January 27, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
As if to add grist to my mill, at least some are saying that this is what drove Teddy Kennedy to endorse Obama today.
January 27, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Obama wins, the media will say the same about Boomer aged women [that they have been cheated out of their candidate].
Make that women, Latinos, non-minorities, conservatives, all but us fringies. :-)
Obama IMHO will make a mockery of all that.
I have a question for you, Destor.
If you truly believe there are white and black races, why is Obama not referred to as white as often as black? If there are not white and black races, is not referring to Obama as black racism?
It is obviously a rhetorical question but I think it is long past time older Americans got over their racial hangups, like younger Americans seem to have done most admirably.
Best, Terry
January 27, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure that the most of Obama supporters are sincere, that makes this whole thing even worse.
If 80% of Blacks voted for Obama and only 20% of Whites voted for Obama, therefore it’s clear that there is a very strong correlation between race on voting pattern. Admitting this obvious fact is considering going too far.
January 27, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
~
Still loudly banging that Southern Strategy gong, eh?
You are a rabble rouser. You are a trouble-maker.
You are not a nice person.
Go away!
~OGD~
January 27, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not a trouble-maker. Facts are trouble-makers for you. This troubles me a lot.
but this would be racism:Why this is not racism:
January 27, 2008 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
you make a good point. But attributing black support for Obama to any Politics of Identity is anathema in this website. Why?
I'm not a psychiatrist Davai
January 27, 2008 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know. However normal people are smarter than that. Notice that in spite overwhelming support for Obama and McCain in the media, Clinton and Romney are ahead in polls. This is a really remarkable testament of smarts and independence of American people. They don’t buy fake straight talk express and new Joshua-Lincoln-Kennedy-Reagan.
January 27, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with most of of your comments, I do think though, that Obama is really sincere in his message of hope.
January 27, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who would not be sincere about hope? It is like saying you sincerely love mom and apple pie.
We are facing extremely difficult times ahead both internationally and domestically. This is not the time for Obama Happy Talk.
Sure we are all for unity, but many interests are irreconcilable, sure we want to have hope, but hope and 6 dollars buys you a latte at Starbucks, and Change, which seems to be the magic word, what is he talking about? Is he saying that he is going to change Washington and politics as usual forever or even for his tenure? That is not credible. Politics is always confrontational and will always remain so.
Obama is laying it on thick on the rhetoric, very thin on the substance. Sure he makes me feel good, but as I said, the next president is going to face very difficult problems.
At least Johyn McCain is right out front with it. He says we will be there in the Middle East for At least another 100 years and there will be more wars to come.
McCain has to be stopped, but if in the general Obama offers more of the kumbaya happy talk, there will be many people who will think he has no clue as to the problems we are facing and reluctantly vote for McCain
January 27, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. It's not the time for "Obama Happy Talk." But I guess it IS the time for Clinton lies, distortions, race-baiting, and nepotism.
While both Obama and Hillary offer detailed policy proposals, Hillary is, at best, a modestly experienced legislative bureaucrat who is among the least popular and most polarizing politicians in the country. Obama, instead of trying to appeal to people's fears and prejudices, is appealing to their better instincts. Do you really imagine that the poisonous atmosphere engendered by Cheney, DeLay, and the rest of the right wing hate machine is impossible to replace? Then you're just a cynical fool.
January 28, 2008 4:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
In my opinion either Obama or Clinton would make a good president. Both candidates are sincere in wanting to help make this a better nation. Do all candidates get carried away with campaign rhetoric? Sure and it's our job to sort it out.
January 28, 2008 4:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
deleted while thinking it over some more...
January 27, 2008 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Destor:
Saying "Bill Clinton went too far", in referring to this campaign, is most certainly within the bounds of fair comment.
And the marriage of Bill and Hillary, or more precisely, the nature of the negotiation between them that comprises the marriage, is fair game, as well, because they have explicitly made it so. There's no pretense of privacy by either of them, and at this point it would be impossible to achieve. You can't unring a bell.
The way they are handling the campaign so far, particularly how Bill has been assuming such a prominent role (presumably with her full knowledge and consent) in 'handling' issues in South Carolina and elsewhere, cannot be segregated... um. bad choice of words-- from their relationship.
So, like it or not, they've made their 'psychodrama' an integral part of the package they're selling. It's fair game, and they seem to want it to be. What choice do they have, after all? I can only imagine the forces at play there that keep them together after everything.
I don't want to peek into their private lives any more than the next person. God knows, no ordinary marriage could sustain the kind of battering theirs has. It's fascinating, though, when something like that is paraded down Main Street all the time. Simply saying that I'd rather they didn't have to do that, or that I want something different now, is not betraying anyones' ideals. I'm simply making a common, and common-sense observation. I don't want to attack them, I want them to go away and they won't listen.
January 27, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very cleverly written and well reasoned, padem. But for another argument. I'm not making a privacy argument for the Clintons. I'm saying that Obama's supporters are attacking them on the same grounds, and with the same language, that their far right opponents used during the 1990s. Preachy, judgmental stuff and wrong in any arena.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
January 27, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I think Mr. Hundt is not out of line in working through this line of thought, he lost me completely when he described the Clintons' recent statements as "the tactics of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove." In a word, no.
I write this as one who is (a) genuinely undecided whether to vote for Clinton or Obama on Feb. 5, and (b) as someone who will (for now) happily vote for either in the general election. Moreover I found much of Bill Clinton's posturing in the last week fairly distasteful, and would reject with anger any serious attempt to run a "southern strategy" in the primaries.
I'm even willing to stipulate Mr. Hundt's insistence that this is all carefully deliberated and highly coordinated tactical maneuvering, rather than the hard-to-control freelancing of an ex-president with a huge ego and too little to do. (Frankly, a close look at even the most allegedly monolithic human political machines in history shows that every organized group is full of confusion, cross-purposes and lack of control, and I find the likelihood of the Clinton's having beaten this historical record unlikely, but let's stipulate.)
That still doesn't make anything that Bill, Hillary or Billary have said correspond, even distantly, to "the tactics of Atwater and Rove." This has not been Willy Horton, this has not been anonymous smears about Obama's sexuality, this has not been relentless, publicly repeated lies and character assassination pressed with millions of dollars of interest group advertising a la Swift Boats ... not even close.
Moreover, even as a relatively engaged citizen -- hey, I even post on blogs! -- I frankly haven't followed the whole kerfuffle very closely. I read the headlines, but find the minutiae that journalists peddle about who insinuated what about whom fairly arcane and even less interesting...and I suspect an awful lot of voters care even less than I do. I know that when you follow politics for a living, a lot of things seem terribly clear and terribly important...that actually aren't. What I heard was Bill trying to deprecate Obama's stunning wipeout victory by comparing it to a very different and ultimately less significant victory by another black candidate quite a few years ago (16? 20?). It's an attempt to trivialize a very major turn of events, and it was done in a tasteless and self-regarding fashion that makes me dislike Bill, again, to be sure. But it's absolute boy-scout behavior compared to the alleged model, messers. Atwater and Rove, who are probably laughing at the Clintons' ineptness or scruples at running a good old-fashioned underhanded racist Republican campaign.
Is Bill Clinton a white lamb who would never knowingly undermine Obama with a mild race card? Of course not. Is Hillary a dedicated angel who is oblivious to the consequences of Bill's and other surrogates' statements? Nonsense.
Are these the "tactics of Atwater and Rove"? Preposterous.
Take a deep breath, look at the larger picture, and calm down.
January 27, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Man... I'm kind of disappointed that Bill Clinton has so successfully controlled the S.C. Primary spin. Bill’s concession speech, and message for America was, Obama won S.C. because he’s black, just like Jessie Jackson. That’s all people are talking about.
It makes me sad. I mean think about it.
Iowa: Obama wins by 10
New Hampshire: Hillary wins by 2
Nevada: Hillary wins by 5
South Carolina: Obama wins by FREAKING 27 POINTS!!!
IT’S A FREAKING LANDSLIDE! No one in this primary season republican or democrat has seen a decisive vote, except Obama. That’s the real story here. Not whether this entire campaign is about race. That is Clinton spin. The real story?
Obama is freaking awesome!
January 27, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
George W Bush called for "Change".
Ronald Reagan called for "Hope".
Everyone calls for "Unity".
But, hey, Obama is "freaking awesome".
January 27, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't your math teacher ever tell you, "Numbers never lie."?
Iowa: Obama +10
New Hampshire: Hillary +2
Nevada: Hillary +5
South Carolina: Obama +27
January 27, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
[Duplicate]
January 27, 2008 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
For the record, Hundt, unless he reads minds, has no idea as to what the Clintons are thinking or what they want other people to think. It isn't necessary to run down the other candidate in order to make yours look good, especially by psychological analysis.
Why readers accept this kind of reporting in any venue is a mystery to me.
January 27, 2008 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
she has little personal record of fighting for a cause
need I mention Universal Health Care under her husband's administration?
January 27, 2008 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Being given a job by her husband (the new President), with a free hand and a big budget to get anyone she wanted to help craft Universal Health Care for the US --> and utterly failing at it
IS NOT A PERSONAL RECORD OF FIGHTING FOR A CAUSE!!!!
She didn't continue to persue it; she didn't say, "I made a mistake in the way I approached this. I will continue to work on Universal Health Care until I find a way to make it work."
...er, that would have been a personal record of fighting for a cause, even if she had only gotten some of her ideas across. She failed and gave up. And she never admitted her own culpability. And no, she did not include medical professionals in the group of people working for that; I personally know this.
Jan
January 28, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
"She failed and gave up."
Also see stuff like her work on CHIP since 2001.
Remember that if she loses the race for the presidency, she's still a Senator. One that probably knows more about the health care system and the players in it than any other politician in the country. Anyone trying to do health care reform in this country is going to need her input. Just sayin'
January 30, 2008 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
As Krugman pointed out this morning, whoever winds up in the Oval office will be swiftboated mercilessly by the republicans, just like they smeared the Clintons.
He also pointed out that whoever ends up in the oval office had better have some workable policies that they can implement as soon as they take the oath of office. Not having a workable HC plan was part of the undoing of the Clintons. The year they took to formulate one gave the Republicans far too much time to poison it.
Congrats to Obama, love his message of hope. The icing on the cake is pretty, but I sure hope there's a cake under it and not just some empty cardboard form.
It's past time for him to start leading in policy matters.
CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com
January 28, 2008 4:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
When my 21 year-old daughter texts me at 11 pm on Saturday night because she is so ecstatic about Obama's victory, it makes me happy about what happened in South Carolina, and so proud of each of my three voting age children who want their dad to vote for Obama. When Caroline Kennedy endorses Obama with a column marked with such dignity and grace, I am moved beyond description.
When I come on here and read all of the trash talk about Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton, I see a totally different campaign--a typical ugly, rotten campaign, rotten to the core, indeed the type that some of the loudest and most vitriolic Obama "supporters" on here accuse everybody else of. How ironic that some of the most hateful stuff you read on here is purported to be written on behalf of Senator Obama, the candidate whose strongest and most compelling quality IMO is his commitment to unity.
And then I remember that this is the internet, the world of anonymity and all that comes with it--the good and the bad.
January 28, 2008 4:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
then I remember that this is the internet, the world of anonymity
My handle has always been my name. I pick up my mail in Westernville, NY, where I have a post office box. My telephone number is in the Westernville telephone book but I hope you will not call with threats.
I object to anonymous attacks and try to tell the truth as much as I know.
I do understand why women particularly would want to remain anonymous but I see no reason I should outside of the crank calls and threats of death and dismemberment.
If you think you are being lied to by me, then surely you should tell me what lies you think I am telling shouldn't you rather than just trashing me?
I applaud your children.
My daughter circulates trash that has been passed on by the Clinton campaign. She doesn't know any better. I don't argue with her. She knows no better. Not everyone's kids are always the very brightest in all they do sad to say.
I speak only for myself BTW.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 4:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Terry:
Respectfully, I am not suggesting that anyone should strip themselves of anonymity. I, too, have identified myself by name, location, occupation, etc. and, honestly, perhaps because I often take positions on here that are not shared by the majority, I have come to regret what I thought intially was the right thing to do, and that was to sign my name in full to comments I felt strongly about. Bad move on my part.
Bruce
January 28, 2008 4:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Respectfully, I am not suggesting that anyone should strip themselves of anonymity.
That is up to everyone to do as they wish.
I just do not like anonymity when personal attacks are launched. Frankly I don't like gutter level attacks at all. :-)
I do understand fully why some would not want to reveal themselves. One woman, whose husband had been murdered by a drug gang leader, had testified before Congress about it. The pain was obvious. The drug gang leader remained free and in business. The story was revealed only in context by a woman who kept her anonymity on the internet.
Following that there were constant jabs at the lady about the "pig on the take who wanted too much and was slaughtered." Got to her finally.
It can indeed be a savage jungle here.
But people tend to do things in the dark they would never do in broad daylight.
I feel I can't complain and remain anonymous myself, whatever others choose to do. Just my own thinking.
Good talking to you, Bruce.
Best, Terry
January 28, 2008 5:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bslev,
You’ve chosen not to see obvious, Obamism is a totalitarian moment, a huge threat to American democracy.
January 28, 2008 6:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
davai:
Welcome back and good luck. I hope your fellow readers treat you with the respect you are entitled to just as much as I hope that you treat your fellow readers with an equal degree of respect.
On the merits, the Obama movement is not a totalitarian movement and is no threat to our democracy. There are extremists in all camps, but most people who support Obama do so because of his message of hope and unity, and not because they feel any hatred for Hillary Clinton.
Bruce
January 28, 2008 7:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
You and I don’t have a way to know what majority of Obama supporters think. However, the huge majority of Obama supporters in the press and in the blogs express such as hatred of Clintons as well as anybody who disagree with them. Look at hatred and disrespect is showed to Paul Krugman who had audacity to mildly criticize Obama.
January 28, 2008 7:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
We do have a way to know, called polling.
However, you do not have a properly controlled sample if you assume your memory of Obama supporters in the press and blogs is representative. You may remember only the louder, rabid ones. (I have only seen hot heads here--no columnists have used harsh language.) I voted twice for Bill Clinton, and do not hate Hillary. Neither am I very impressed. That's all, and there are probably many like me, but I do not say things like "the huge majority" without any foundation.
January 28, 2008 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just watch todays's "TPMtv: Sunday Show Clinton Pile-On"
It's attempt of forcing their choices on American people.
January 28, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Empty phrases that Orwell warned against.
"Obamism?" Care to define that school of thought, or political system, or whatever that is suppose to mean? Suspicious resonance with a certain term from the Torah, also.
Totalitarian? I think you should switch from whatever you're smoking to my brand. Or maybe you just finished reading that hilarious screed by the little spawn-of-Lucianne.
Let's see, what would "Clintonism" be? Admittedly better than Romneyism or the really scary Huckabism. I'll take either Dem-ism over GOP jism.
January 28, 2008 7:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obamism is a is a cult, mass hysterical movement. I’ll take Clintonism or Romneyism over Obamism any time precisely because they are not cults. The last think that I want to see in US are united people led by a cult leader. This is what Obama offers.
January 28, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Huh?
January 28, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
ALL sides are guilty as charged in this fight, Bruce.
Including moi.
As an aside, let us all be grateful that Larry Johnson is restricting his contributions to this site to issues that have little to do with this primary. Thankfully, Clinton man LJ is keeping his bilious trash talk about Obama and his supporters on his "noquarter" home turf as it is a perfect example of "a typical ugly, rotten campaign, rotten to the core".
January 28, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah lally:
I'll let you in on a little secret; I've been known to go a bit over the top now and then myself. I know that comes as quite a shock to you. :)
On the Larry Johnson guy, I'm with you. Happened to have a bit of an exchange with him myself the other day concerning his own brand of trash talk. They come in all shapes and sizes as you khow.
BTW, I always read your posts lally; you're a good teacher, the kind that should be hosting these chats. Some day perhaps?
Regards,
Bruce
January 28, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce.
LOL. You may go over the top once in awhile but you also make the effort to turn around and climb back up and over the precipice.
This primary is bringing out the best and mostly the worst in us; makes our I/P discussion threads appear sort of of stately and dignified by comparison.
Good for you for taking on LJohnson! Was it here or on his blog?
I don't think I'd be a very good hostess, Bruce, but thanks. You would do a fine job at hosting, though.
Sometimes I think it's too bad you use your real ID here as I feel you may be constrained at discussing "some" issues having to do with your professional life....way back when I entertained the fantasy of becoming a labor organizer. But, my experiences as a whistle blower taught me that I wasn't suited for enlisting people to fight for their best interests, even when there was absolute irrefutable proof they were being screwed.
Keep up the good fight.
January 29, 2008 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce,
excellent post, quite accurate.
January 28, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks John. Much obliged.
Bruce
January 28, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this post is extremely divisive, filled with over-the-top animosity, and totally out of line.
If these attitudes are what the Democratic party has come to represent, then for me the question is no longer which candidate to vote for, but rather, whether or not I can continue to support the Democratic party.
If Hillary gets the nomination, how does the party back off from this kind of thing?
If this is what Obama supporters think of the Clintons, what does it say about what they think of those who support them with their votes?
How can the Obama camp after having engaged in this kind of behavior, shown so much disrespect to a fellow Democrat and the voters who support her, as well as to the Democrats who supported the Clinton presidency and believe it should be defended, expect to be trusted by those voters, the constituencies which are being dismissed so disdainfully by the writer, when they need them?
From first word to last, the writer is doing exactly what he claims the Clinton campaign is doing -- trying to get people to vote for Obama because they hate the Clintons.
I simply cannot abide being part of a party that conducts itself this way.
Unfortunately, I have seen many ugly arguments like this -- against the Clintons personally -- in the left blogosphere and media. I have yet to see any Clinton supporter write in this way about Obama.
I won't support Clinton just because I believe Obama's supporters are filled with hate.
But that hate makes it very difficult to support Obama and the "movement" he is leading.
If this is the only kind of choice I'm left with after decades as a loyal Democrat -- I either won't be voting in November, or I'll be voting for someone other than a Democrat.
January 28, 2008 10:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
January 28, 2008 11:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
What in the world are you talking about?
January 28, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Honestly, where are you coming from with this? I am an Obama supporter (recently) but don't hate Hillary Clinton in the least, and I think most people who support Obama feel the way I do. Clinton was wrong about the issues. Watching Bill Clinton talk about Obama's "Jesse Jackson victory" made my skin crawl, even though I have really loved Bill Clinton. In fact, I saw Bill Clinton speak at a trial lawyers' convention and was so proud that he was president. But he and Hillary (if you believe that they were "copresidents") have had their eight years, and although I will welcome them back over a Republican, I'd rather see someone else who might be able to have a less poisonous relationship with our adversaries. I know there are hateful Republicans out there who can't be changed, but I can't believe that middle class people who are worried about their own families can't come over to the Democratic way of thinking when the country is less polarized. I am not talking about Lieberman style thinking either - just that Republicans (some of them) have to be worried about health care just like I am. And we know that lots of them wish we weren't in Iraq or bankrupting the country. But something about the Clintons makes this coalition less likely.
January 28, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Honestly, why can't you see the elitism, prejudice and ugly passive aggressive appeals and arguments being made in this post?
Perhaps it's because you share some of the writers elitism?
January 29, 2008 5:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Barack Obama has a House Rep. in Chicago by the name of Jesse Jackson Jr.
Perhaps you've heard of him.
Would it be racist to mention his name?
January 29, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Mentioning" Jesse Jackson is not what Bill Clinton did. He responded with a condescending laugh that Obama's win in South Carolina was just as meaningless as Jesse's was.
The situations were entirely different for one thing, but the most important thing is that Clinton came off looking like a high-school kid trying to make fun of another teenager running for office. In fact, my son was football captain in high school this year; he said the same thing about their accross-town rival.
Clinton's comments weren't rascist; they were childish and mean-spirited, and Bill Clinton, as a former President should not be involved at that level in the first place. It is not rascist -- it is disgusting.
Jan
January 29, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink