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America Diminished

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My New America Foundation colleague Parag Khanna has a vital article out today in the New York Times Magazine titled "Waving Goodbye to Hegemony."

While scenarios of the world's geostrategic and geopolitical future are proliferating today not only i Khanna's essay but in other provocative articles like "After Iraq" by Jeffrey Goldberg, Khanna's comprehensive approach to the question of America's future makes a great deal of sense to me.

What I like most is that he articulates what I've been sensing for some time in the global marketplace of power. Other nations aren't going to count on America's guarantees quite as much as before. They are filling the void of America's perceived decline with their own plans and pretensions and gambling that tomorrow's future will be far more fluid than yesterday's -- and that some of America's allies and foes will be able to surf this lack of global equilibrium into a better position.

Khanna perceptively writes:

At best, America's unipolar moment lasted through the 1990s, but that was also a decade adrift. The post-cold-war "peace dividend" was never converted into a global liberal order under American leadership.

So now, rather than bestriding the globe, we are competing -- and losing -- in a geopolitical marketplace alongside the world's other superpowers: the European Union and China. This is geopolitics in the 21st century: the new Big Three. Not Russia, an increasingly depopulated expanse run by Gazprom.gov; not an incoherent Islam embroiled in internal wars; and not India, lagging decades behind China in both development and strategic appetite. The Big Three make the rules -- their own rules -- without any one of them dominating. And the others are left to choose their suitors in this post-American world.

The more we appreciate the differences among the American, European and Chinese worldviews, the more we will see the planetary stakes of the new global game. Previous eras of balance of power have been among European powers sharing a common culture. The cold war, too, was not truly an "East-West" struggle; it remained essentially a contest over Europe. What we have today, for the first time in history, is a global, multicivilizational, multipolar battle.

I particularly liked Khanna's treatment of trends in Asia:

Without firing a shot, China is doing on its southern and western peripheries what Europe is achieving to its east and south. Aided by a 35 million-strong ethnic Chinese diaspora well placed around East Asia’s rising economies, a Greater Chinese Co-Prosperity Sphere has emerged.

Like Europeans, Asians are insulating themselves from America's economic uncertainties. Under Japanese sponsorship, they plan to launch their own regional monetary fund, while China has slashed tariffs and increased loans to its Southeast Asian neighbors. Trade within the India-Japan-Australia triangle -- of which China sits at the center -- has surpassed trade across the Pacific.

At the same time, a set of Asian security and diplomatic institutions is being built from the inside out, resulting in America's grip on the Pacific Rim being loosened one finger at a time. From Thailand to Indonesia to Korea, no country -- friend of America's or not -- wants political tension to upset economic growth. To the Western eye, it is a bizarre phenomenon: small Asian nation-states should be balancing against the rising China, but increasingly they rally toward it out of Asian cultural pride and an understanding of the historical-cultural reality of Chinese dominance.

And in the former Soviet Central Asian countries -- the so-called Stans -- China is the new heavyweight player, its manifest destiny pushing its Han pioneers westward while pulling defunct microstates like Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, as well as oil-rich Kazakhstan, into its orbit. The Shanghai Cooperation Organization gathers these Central Asian strongmen together with China and Russia and may eventually become the "NATO of the East."

Khanna's depiction of what is coming next is essential reading and gives one an informed snapshot of the mess that America will have in tomorrow's world.

Much of what Khanna describes would have happened over time regardless of the failure of both President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush to put America on a more enlightened and constructive track at the end of the Cold War. But as Charles Kupchan, author of The End of the American Era: US Foreign Policy and the Geopolitics of the Twenty-First Century, has told me many times -- "President Bush sped up history and made what would have taken a couple of decades happen in just a few years."

For those who want more, I highly recommend Parag Khann's book which will be out in March, The Second World: Empires and Influence in the New Global Order

-- Steve Clemons is Senior Fellow and Director of the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation and publishes the popular political blog, The Washington Note


92 Comments

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I can't say that I like your headline.

America is only diminished by the end of its hegemony, if one believes that our worth as a nation is to be judged by our dominance of others.

I'm sure that's not what you mean, but that's how it comes across to me.

But more to the point, I'm highly skeptical of the whole notion of a "global liberal order."

What does that even mean?

We have a hard enough time even addressing health care issues and raging deficits, the notion of trying to forge a global order of any kind seems like huge overreach.

But why is this even desirable for America or the world?

I'm sure that's not what you [Steve Clemmons] mean . . . .

I'm sure that's exactly what he means.

Our foreign policy wags cannot imagine an America that fails to lead the community of nations, and to the extent that it shares that leadership with other countries America is, in their minds, "diminished." To hold any less arrogant idea is, in their word of dismissal, to be -- unserious.

Well I freely admit that I would prefer my country to lead, simply because in theory I can influence it's policy more and because on some level I see Asian domination as having some non-liberal democratic streaks and I worry about that.

One of the big things I hold against the Bushes, and most Democrats to be honest. But I've detailed my theories of power elsewhere.

Just put me in charge I know I could do better than Bush.

I too dislike the headline, but can accept it if the article points to a continued desire for American control of things it cannot control. The idea of continuing hegemony in a multipolar world reminds me of Colonel Blimp sipping his pink gin and dismissing the "bloody wogs", and not having discussed the matter with Dr. William Brydon.

I agree with Common Dreamer that there are immediate problems to address domestically. At the same time, there needs to be thoughtful addressing of global issues, especially those that deal with trade, resources, and a twisted "brain drain" based on offshoring. As to the latter, the history of science and technology shows that the greater the number of qualified people working on problems, the more society tends to benefit.

That doesn't mean moving research labs to Beijing. It means having a research lab in the US, or, as mine had been, with a manager in Ottawa but most participants in the US, and some in Sweden. The Swedish lab also closed down, in the short-sighted view of corporations and shareholders that cutting costs are more important than innovation.

Forgive me if I'm wandering into something that should be in my own blog post, but I see danger in what may be a dumbing-down of America, and a climate that makes innovation more and more difficult. Some of the best work has been done in small business; Cisco is a dominant technology company, but it probably puts a good deal more money into acquiring small business with great technology than it does in creating it. The double whammy of health care and capital concentration makes it more and more difficult for Americans, Americans who learned the lessons of the dot-com crash, to start innovative businesses.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Could rewarding wealth instead of work be involved?

If income is not heavily taxed, but large capital profits are, both individuals and companies will tend to emphasize gaining and keeping a foothold in skill and expertise, since these attributes can't be replaced easily, or at all.

Some other countries are emphasizing, and investing in exactly such skill sets. Here we emphasize MBA prgrams and getting a job with a hedge fund (i.e. Chelsea C.). Worth pointing out that the finance sector is really just another service sector job, until you get lucky and grab some dough for yourself.

In principle one can build a bridge or grow a crop without currency. But you can't have a currency without the goods and labor it represents.

We have been seduced by the easy life of a ruling class. Unfortunately, the ruled have lost interest in being such.

We have been seduced by the easy life of a ruling class.

Is in not,”We have been mislead and abused by the power and greed of a ruling class"?

We discuss the puppets of the elites and powerful but we do not get above the puppet politicians for the most part here at the TpmCafe. Go to some of the longitudinal studies of the "Powerful and Influential" and how things work in the geographical areas studied. If lucky, one may even find a series on your own local geographic area. There are also some for our country and groups of countries describing how the elite and their interactions and use of power as a group use power. Go to local or state universitie and ask if a study has been done for your area or state.

If you do not understand the interplay of the elites on our lives responding to this enemy is like an army firing the cannons without a target or using a spotter to direct fire!


-----------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking

Actually, the article is a fairly dispassionate analysis of the current situation. Its thesis is more like "America's hegemony is over, let's do our best to adapt to the new situation".

..the distribution of power in the world has fundamentally altered over the two presidential terms of George W. Bush, both because of his policies and, more significant, despite them.

The opinions of a senior research fellow who equivocates (because...despite) on the impact of the two disastrous terms of George W. Bush, is a fellow who has little grip on what has happened the last seven years.

RogerGathman
The end of American hegemony can't come too soon, if you ask me. It is perhaps the only chance for the American working and middle class to regain their power - a power that has been systematically smashed to preserve a structure of unsustainable inequality, a structure that freezes social mobility, a structure that has de-manufactured America and would like to operate, now, on the 'entitlements' that created and still sustain the American middle class. This couldn't have been done without ramping up military spending and using a sort of darkside Keynesian policy, substituting easy credit for real wage gains. The result is a country that largely borrows its raises - taps the mortgage on the ever inflating price of the house it lives in to pay for larger things uncounted in the inflation statistics, like health care and education - and has so adapted to overwork that it doesn't know what to do with its free time anymore. I know - let's shop!

This is not a country that is pursuing happiness, but a country of managed obsession compulsion in which an odd ideology - altruistic greed - reigns supreme. The people on the bottom altruistically support the economic structures that make the greedy people on the top infinitely richer, defending this on idealistic grounds of self-reliance and the like - laughable concepts when one looks realistically at how the top five percent makes its money. An America that no longer had a military edge to make up for its debts would have to go back to savings - and that America would look much different. It would bring vividly into focus the inequality that has been casually assumed by the American public, and we would have to ask whether this is really what we want out of this republic. I don't think we do.

This is a very important subject that should ideally be part of the national political discourse. A better title to Steve's piece would be 'American hegemony diminished'. We should see this a a wonderful opportunity for America, not a setback. We are a great nation. Our strength lies in our naturally endowed wealth, to be sure, but also in the institutions and culture we have built. The US remains, a will so for some time unless we allow it to degrade, the leading center of science and engineering with its great universities and a national laboratories both private and public. Our entertainment industry projects positive American values internationally. We continue to have the best hospitals and to lead in medical research. In addition, our democratic institutions and beautiful multicultural society should continue to inspire the rest of the world.

What is detracting from achieving these potentials is that militarism has become a dominant force in this country. We have become the world's worst aggressor intervening in the internal affairs of other nations. This effort at international control is bankrupting this country. This is the opportunity that we face. Why don't we use our resources to do what we do best and let the rest of the world solve their own internal political contradictions. Our resources can be used to create more economic equality within the US and even to see that the great health care system that we have built is available to all of our citizens.

I think most understand what would be required to achieve these ends. The US must begin to give up its global military presence with its 800 bases and to begin reducing the size of our military. Let us recognize that our borders are secure, there is no power on earth that can challenge us in North America, but also recognize that we cannot secure the borders of every nation on earth unless we want to end up in bankruptcy.

syvanen wrote: but also in the institutions and culture we have built. The US remains, a will so for some time unless we allow it to degrade, the leading center of science and engineering with its great universities and a national laboratories both private and public. Our entertainment industry projects positive American values internationally. We continue to have the best hospitals and to lead in medical research. In addition, our democratic institutions and beautiful multicultural society

Not sure where you live but what you describe is not the America I live in. It's hospitals kill people, our health care is even worse than Cuba's and they don't deny care to anyone.

As for our culture, it is the singularly most rude, racist, and mediocre of any nation on the planet.

You remind me of a person I met just the other day who says that America is the BEST and he absolutely will NOT hear anything different.

Your kind of sunshine is not the kind we need.



********
- We do not act rightly because we have virture, we have virtue because we act rightly.

I accept that our health care does not provide service to all of our citizens. That is a given. But we do have the best health care in the world and we must work to see that all of our citizens enjoy the level of care that the top 50% have.

As to our culture, I still believe that we have a very healthy and vibrant citizenry. Of course, any one who listens to the radio can hear the racism and mediocrity that you mention. But I do not think that is America.

Of course, any one who listens to the radio can hear the racism and mediocrity that you mention. But I do not think that is America.

What is it, Canada?

touche'

What do you base this on?

But we do have the best health care in the world and we must work to see that all of our citizens enjoy the level of care that the top 50% have.

First of all, we are below Costa Rica in longevity.  Have you bothered to read any of the evaluations of national health care systems?  We are FAR from the best, and even if that 50% that you note was healthier than all the other nations, the fact that so many are left out puts us farther down the list. 

I have a shocking piece of news for you:

THE US IS NOT THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD; IT DOES NOT HAVE THE BEST HEALTH CARE, IT HAS ONE OF THE WORST PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, AND IT BARELY HAS A FREAKING DEMOCRACY!

By the way, we are the only country in the world that has dropped a nuclear bomb on civilian (or any other, for that matter) targets.  We invaded and occupied a country that was no threat to us, and we all know it but don't hold those who lied us into it accountable because the subject is OFF THE TABLE!

Oh, I give up!

Jan

Don't give up, Jan. You are on the nose...with just a bit of interpolation. America's health system IS the best in the world -- for the wealthy who can afford it.

Exactly right. But we do have best hospital and health care system for those who can afford it. I know. I belong to that system. We now have to make it available to the rest of the public.

Right. But the topic of discussion is the current situation, not what Shangri-la we may inhabit some day in the future.

Re: It's hospitals kill people, our health care is even worse than Cuba's

There's absolutely nothing wrong with America's healthcare as such. It's first-rate. The problems are all with the payment system. As the saying goes, we have the best healthcare system in the world-- if you can afford it.

Really? So cutting edge high end health care is on a par with the technology and sophistication of a Japan, or a France, or a Germany?

Don't think so.

But you know, maybe there's a way to draw a circle around whatever you've got to claim its a bulls eye.

Re: So cutting edge high end health care is on a par with the technology and sophistication of a Japan, or a France, or a Germany?
Don't think so.

Apparently we live in different universes then. Technologically there is absolutely nothing amiss with US healthcare. We have all the gee-whiz fancy gizmos, miracle drugs and high tech procedures they have anywhere else on the planet. Can you name something like that you can't get (for any price) in the US that you can get in some other country? But we do have a very big problem with the fact that far too many people are priced out our healthcare system and receive, at best, substandard care.

Have you checked?

Besides, you've just adjusted your position from being the best, to being as good as the best anywhere else.

Apparently my question is not to be answered: what high tech dugs/procedures/tests are not available in the US because the technology is lacking?

The US must begin to give up its global military presence with its 800 bases and to begin reducing the size of our military. Let us recognize that our borders are secure, there is no power on earth that can challenge us in North America, but also recognize that we cannot secure the borders of every nation on earth unless we want to end up in bankruptcy.
I don't disagree that many of those bases have little meaningful role, especially the ones for forward-deployed troops. Some of the functions, and often at small bases, need to be thought about.
For example, I am reluctant to shut down a base that is truly for intelligence collection (i.e., not covert action), because properly used intelligence will, some of the time, tell where a smaller military may have a real task. Some of the receiving sites for intelligence collecting satellites are in obscure places, often dictated by the geometry of the orbit, and also security in receiving the information in a place where other countries can't listen.
There are some military missions often not discussed. As a serious question to the original poster, do you consider Noncombatant Evacuation Operations a legitimate role for the US military? Typically, that mission falls to one of the Marine units afloat. When there is a civil war or revolution in a country, and a unit is within reasonable range, they will typically fly a strong defensive unit to the US Embassy grounds, and fly out US and allied citizens. Sometimes, the scale of the evacuation is such that helicopters alone do not have the capacity, and, if it is necessary to use fixed-wing aircraft, it becomes necessary to have a secure airport. If the nation involves controls its airport, that's fine, but if it isn't, it may be necessary to seize it for the duration of the evacuation.
I'm very carefully talking about evacuation here, not trying to bring order to something like the Rwanda explosion of one-at-a-time genocide. That would take a much larger force, and create a probable quagmire.
As the real world works, there have been cases where there is more than one simultaneous NEO needed; this happened in May and August 1996, first in Liberia and then the Central African Republic. Liberia is coastal, the CAR is not and presents a difficult problem. The way the CAR situation was handled by the then-European Command putting together an ad hoc force, since many of its troops were on coalition operations in the Balkans.
So, is NEO a proper role? Is a proper role being in coalition operations, possibly as one of the "door-kicking" missions that only a few nations can execute, and then be followed by other militaries, perhaps handing off peace enforcement to them?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]


I guess I am opposed to these kinds of humanitarian interventions that you describe. The reason being that though the immediate goal sounds reasonable, it allows our imperialistic interveners to get a foot in the door and to then pursue their real agenda. Remember Thomas Friedman supported the war in Iraq as a means to spread liberal values -- we all know how the oil interests ran with that one.

I'm a little unclear if you are referring to NEO or coalition operations as "humanitarian". NEOs, by definition, are limited term ways to evacuate US (and sometimes allied) citizens when all other means of transportation are shut down. In some cases, the last troops leaving may blow up US facilities. How do you fit "imperialistic interveners" into that?

In like manner,if there is a coalition operation, under UN or the thing I really prefer, regional organization auspices. For example, there is much emoting about the US doing "something" in Darfur, although I can't think of a meaningful role beyond what is being done: providing transport airlift for African Union personnel and equipment from Nigeria into Darfur. Since El Fasher airport, in Darfur, has no refueling facilities, the plane has to carry round-trip fuel, and turns around as fast as possible.

I don't see where you are getting imperialist intervention out of this, or any relationship between NEOs & coalition support and Iraq. I get a sense, and may indeed be wrong, that you are opposed to anything military except a response to direct attack on American soil -- which, by international law, is exactly what an American embassy is considered.

To me, a proper approach is to get rid of the imperialistic interveners, not reasonable capabilities of protecting citizens. I haven't, for that matter, seen how the oil interests benefit from Iraq.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

The US has been getting involved in too may wars that are really not our business. They include:

Beirut 1982
Serbia 1999
Somalia 1990
Iraq 2003

Plus our interventions in central America (1980-1995) in El Savadore, Hounorus, Nicaruagua and Guatamla (with the about 500 thousand deaths) plus the attacks against Panama and Grenada.

This record makes me very suspicious about our intentions when we send our troops to engage in 'humanitarian' interventions.

We aren't talking about the same thing; I never used the term "humanitarian." I'd appreciate it if you would answer direct questions.

First, I talked about Noncombatant Evacuation Operations (NEO). The examples I gave were for Liberia and the Central African Republic in 1996. The force came in, secured the embassy, evacuated US citizens, and left a short time later.

Second, Beirut, Serbia, and Somalia were, respectively, UN, NATO, and UN operations. Are you opposed to the use of US forces in multinational coalition? A "no" is fine, but please don't change the subject to "intentions" and "humanitarian". The two UN operations were disastrous, but I see no imperialism in them.

You make a legitimate argument for Central America, which, in some of the cases, involved criminality in circumventing Congress.

Grenada is definitely more complex, but I cannot see imperialist aspects; US forces were there for a short period of time and then were gone. The operation was not carried out well, but did have, as one of its goals, the recovery of US students. I make no argument that the action was also to stop Cuban expansion.

Panama also involved hazards to US citizens. The US had numerous forces in Panama on a long-term basis, such as Southern Command, but these have steadily been moving out. In this specific case, there was a strategic issue involved: the Panama Canal.

So far, I'm hearing a generalized "military bad". Would you care to be more specific, and respond to what I actually said?


--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

I didn't answer your question directly because the examples you gave seemed to be trivial nitpicking. These NEO operations are a tiny fraction of US military capacity. Why are we spending over 1 trillion dollars on our military this year? This cannot be justified by the operations that you mention. Britain and France seem to be involved in these kinds of operations frequently and they seem to do it well with a military that is much much smaller than ours.

Grenada happens to be a perfect example for my point. Granadians pick a government we dissapprove of. We invade and arrest that government, set up one that we approve of and, after we are satisfied, the military leaves. Every Granadian gets the message -- do not upset the US or our military will return. That is imperialistic behavior. We do not need an occupying army in every subject country to achieve our ends.

They aren't nitpicking when they are intended to be rather noncontroversial examples of what a military should be able to do. In all sincerity, I'd like to hear a statement of the roles and missions you consider appropriate to a military. If you prefer, I'll start with the ground-based midcourse defense system against ICBMs, for which there are cost estimates in the tens of billions. I can easily list a series of national vulnerabilities, such as the North American electrical grid or in the chemical industry, that are seriously vulnerable to accident or to deliberate attack. I'd move the money there, if there were a way to do it. If North Korea, for example, were to try to hit a target such as Guam, the missiles would never show up on the Alaskan radar, much less be within intercept geometry -- the curvature of the earth gets in the way.

A very large part of the current military spending, as I'm sure you know, is Iraq, as ill-advised an operation as the US has undertaken. Afghanistan was more complex and more justified.

Things get more complex, however, when considering things like theater ballistic missile defense, the two deployed systems of which, as opposed to the national BMD systems, have reasonable records of working in tests. TBMD could protect an outlying territory such as Guam. More importantly, it can be used to control, near the source, a problem like North Korea, including Japan protecting itself.

Britain and France have been enlarging their forces, both building carriers although stretching their resources. It was amazing that Britain was able to recover the Falklands, and if either carrier had been lost, the expedition would have lost.

I absolutely agree there have been some imperialistic actions, but in many cases, these actions, whether by large military forces or by covert action, were ordered by the White House. As with the Gulf of Tonkin, a war can be ordered on outright lies.

We do not have an occupying army in every country. I still would like to hear a reasonable set of roles and missions. There are such planning documents, although they have become more classified over the years (e.g., "maintain defense against the Warsaw Pact while able to fight 2 major regional contingencies").

What roles and missions would you recommend to the planning of a new Democratic administration?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

“I still would like to hear a reasonable set of roles and missions.”

I would too. Could you help out with that. What roles and missions would you recommend to the planning of a new Democratic administration?

I can't throw out an instant list, although some discussion might be useful, in this post or elsewhere. There's a lot of intelligence functions that would go along with this, as well as logistics, engineering, etc.

Here's a start, off the top of my head:


  1. Provide TBD Brigade Combat Teams to coalition operations, a mix of Heavy, Stryker, and Light TBD. Provide 2 (TBD) corps troops and headquarters organizations

  2. Provide intelligence support to TBD coalition operations (SIGINT, IMINT, MASINT)

  3. Maintain force protection counterintelligence for all deployed forces

  4. Maintain capability for freedom of navigation and convoy escort in TBD theaters of operation (2-3)

  5. Ability to place (number TBD) ground special reconnaissance elements in (TBD) locations, within (TBD) after alert. Delivery missions would reflect the current specialty mix in Special Forces Groups

  6. Operate Mobile Training Teams for Foreign Internal Defense, number and areas TBD

  7. Conduct (TBD, probably 2-3) concurrent noncombatant operations or equivalent assistance function within (TBD) days of alert, at least 1 operation not to be accessible by sea forces

  8. Maintain nuclear deterrence against plausible opponents. This will involve both arms reduction and improvements in verification. The Triad will continue, although bombers will primarily be for non-nuclear missions

  9. Maintain border air defense

  10. Worldwide capability to strike 1-2 threat concentrations by long-range air.

  11. Review treaty obligations in Korea and provide appropriate forces.

  12. Continue to work toward lowering in tension between the Chinas, but maintain a forward presence


--
Howard

You have thrown out quite a list. Something for me to sink my teeth into.

You seem to support star wars. Pure boondoggle, waste of money, cancel it. I thought you were more sensible than believing in this nonsense.

Most of the military needs that you list seem to be because of other countries objecting to our intrusive military presence. If we withdrew from, for example, Iraq then we wouldn't have to deal with insurgents shooting at our soldiers. This is pretty simple. It also applies to Afghanistan.

your point 8. I agree. Bet we could do that for about 50 billion dollars each year.

9.OK

10. Not a good idea. As long as we maintain that capability we will use it. As Albright said, why have this big military if we don't use it. The US won WWII. We did not maintain a capability to fight wars on that scale. When it was needed we built it, today we don't need it so don't.

11. Yes. That would be zero American troops.

12. Real bad idea. The only sensible move is to withdraw from US bases in Korea, Japan and Okinawa. Maintaining this forward presence increases the risk of the US blundering into another Asian war are even starting one. Right now the danger spot is Taiwan. We should just recognize the reality, not just the words, of the one-China-policy and accept that we will never go to war to prevent reunification. Having all of those forward Asian bases will tempt some future President to go to war against China if they finally decide to reunify by force.

Since I don't know what TBD means it is unclear what your other points mean. But you should get my general flavor. BTW, I am quite aware that these ideas are way outside of the mainstream even inside the Democratic Party. I think it will probably require some extremely dramatic event, either military defeat or more likely a financial crises that bankrupts this country and forces retrenchmentbecause there is no money to do otherwise. However, I think these things should be discussed since if one of the two crises does come to pass, it would also set the stage for even more militarism.

You seem to support star wars. Pure boondoggle, waste of money, cancel it. I thought you were more sensible than believing in this nonsense.
Depends on what you mean by "Star Wars". The national ballistic missile defense system, based on midcourse intercept with the operational sites in Alaska, probably doesn't work and protects against no plausible threat.
Theater ballistic missile defense, using PAC-3, SM-3, and possibly Arrow, does appear to work and has several stabilizing applications.]
TBD is To Be Determined. These are not things that can be determined without serious analysis.
Most of the military needs that you list seem to be because of other countries objecting to our intrusive military presence. If we withdrew from, for example, Iraq then we wouldn't have to deal with insurgents shooting at our soldiers. This is pretty simple. It also applies to Afghanistan.
You seem to be missing the coalition references in many of those situations, and assuming unilateral US activity.
The initial attack on the Taliban was necessary. Attacking Iraq, however, made no sense on its own, and also interfered with finishing the key mission in Iraq. IIRC, there are 40,000 troops in Afghanistan, a significant number of which are from other NATO countries. What is your position on regional alliances>
I'm getting a little concerned that we may not be communicating. If TBD isn't familiar, my guess would be you haven't read much military literature. I'm also confused is how you associate #10, air strikes, with "big military". An appropriate air action need not have any troops on the ground, and some have had significant benefit.
The idea about "other countries objecting" also seems a little odd, when something like training is in the list, and most things are posed in terms of coalition warfare. Your point that the US won WWII is incorrect; WWII was won by coalitions. The difficulty of building when you need it, with present technology and skills, means at least 2-5 years to get a proficient force.
I have yet to hear your definition of adequately sized military, other than it's now too big. I also get a sense of your not wanting any foreign deployments for any reason. Is this true? If not, a reality is that for anything forward deployed, there needs to be at least two of it in rotation.
Again, I don't know how you are using "militarism". -- Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Some aspects of Reagan's aspirations are hopeless; others are wholly achievable. Many arguments around it have more to do with countermeasures than the performance of the main system. The best argument against the ur-Star wars was it could be overwhelmed by a capable opponent. So it was too little, too soon, against the USSR.

The best argument in favor of theater defense is that it is deployed against a limited enemy deployment. Saddam had a limited number of Scuds, in 1991, so Patriots stood a chance of catching some missiles, which they did.

Another achievable defense is point defense of land-based ballistic missiles. When you know where a missile is going to land you can arrange for a hail of upward-moving lead, like the close-in ship defense system, Phalanx, which also works pretty well.

What you will never get is a truly impermeable shield, and the reprehensible activity of Reagan's SDI boosters was to imply that was achievable, and of course humane. It was neither, since true invulnerability would enable attack without MAD.

As to size, we don't have a large standing army. We hope to make do with fancy hardware. This works for attack, but not for holding territory. That requires lots of boots. The large costs we see can be partly assigned to weapons sytems, which do not have to be pursued, perhaps. These include the large-ship Navy, lots of aircraft, and surveillance satellites. Some items, like large artillery, seem to miss the point, and have only a few generals pulling for them.

As you knows, "Star Wars" is very different than TBMD. There are aspects of TBMD, unfortunately, that are not well known. The strongest operational TBMD system in the world is Israel, with Arrow interceptors operating above the atmosphere and PAC-3 within it. The existence of that system, presumably with early warning from US DSP satellites (although Israel is capable of building and launching such satellites) makes the hysteria about Iran even more ludicrous. For that matter, the Israelis have been working on other systems, more for light rocket intercept, but still capable of point defense. For reasons I don't understand, they have stopped development of systems that could have a significant capability against the rockets from the territories. Yes, it would be expensive -- but how expensive is the existing situation?

North Korean missile ambitions may also have been controlled by the early deployment of US and Japanese AEGIS-equipped destroyers, which, given the location of the North Korean facilities, might have been able to hit a missile in the boost phase. We are upgrading the Japanese Kondo-class (a Burke Flight I copy) destroyers to be TBMD capable, and also providing PAC-3 for the Japanese mainland.

Other TBMD scenarios are possible, such as stabilizing India-Pakistan, with TBMD being one aspect of a second-strike capability. That may not be full MAD, but it is a reasonable approximation.

Especially in coalition operations, lots of boots are not needed. Assume, hypothetically, that Iraq 2003 made sense. The US forces took down the Iraqi military quite quickly. Had there been a pan-Arab force to take over, with the US pulling back (perhaps leaving some reaction force), the resentment to "Infidel" imperialists might not have been an issue.

I can see reductions in some type of aircraft, and the Navy is reorienting away from ships that seemed appropriate for the Cold War. As far as surveillance satellites, I would hesitate to cut -- but there have been some bad decisions made, as with the Future Imagery Architecture. Even with FIA, there was some avoiding of stovepiping, so you didn't need separate ELINT, IMINT, and COMINT birds in the same orbit. Alternatively, the mini-satellite constellation (French Essiam, IIRC) may be a better way to go, with lots of small specialized satellites, launched in appreciable numbers by a single booster rocket.

There is a rather intense, behind-the-scenes debate about the missions for special operations forces. Rumsfeld appeared to overemphasize the "door-kicking" direct action missions over the unconventional warfare, foreign internal defense, and special reconnaissance.

It also gets lost that much as he wanted, you can't rapidly expand SOF and keep quality. When language training takes 3-13 months, and some of the skill courses (e.g., Special Forces medic) are about a year, and there is a high washout rate, you aren't going to have a huge pool to draw from. Rumsfeld had a lot of fantasies about force transformation, a few of which made sense, but many of which are showing as disastrous.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Boots are needed. but need not be all ours. Agreed. Was discussing force levels absent allies.

so Patriots stood a chance of catching some missiles, which they did.

Not according to whathisname at MIT. He concluded that we missed every time. This was just one big military snow job to show the voters that we had this wonderful weapon and their money was well spent. One big fraud. Also those experiments showing us shooting missiles out of the sky were also highly biased. (for example, putting tracking devices on the incoming missiles so the antimissile could see it). Very very bogus.

Millions of Americans believe this junk, that is why today annual total military expenditures have exceeded $1 trillion. It is very depressing to see what sound like intelligent people vigorously arguing for ruinous military spending because of a life time of being exposed to our military culture.

Defense contractors are of course notorious for setting up impressive demonstrations. But can you assert, with a straight face, that intercepting a missile is impossible? Hard, yes. So was flying, at first.

Might have more impact if you could track down whatshisname. My understanding is that view is not consensus, even among critics.

You must have heard the phrase "power vacuum". That would result if we dialed back military presence. We certainly can't do many of the things people wish we could with military power. But we will not reduce suddenly or dramatically, so you might as well start thinking about achievable and likely changes.

I think you will find that there may, indeed, have been rigging -- almost certainly -- with the NBMD systems. I have seen enough technical detail to believe that the current TBMD systems work. They are not perfect, but have a good chance of working.

I can give a fairly detailed account of what was wrong with the TBMD in Iraq, which was not the PAC-3. Did you want to discuss the issue with the timers on the multiple track management software?

It would be unfortunate if people were categorized as "vigorously arguing for ruinous military spending because of a life time of being exposed to our military culture," if that translates to knowing the capabilities, limitations, and design issues in a system, where someone who is politically pure is above looking at such trivia. Let me assure you that I source more specifically than whatshisname. Why, incidentally, is whatshisname right, in your opinion, other than he is saying what you want to hear? Now, I believe most defensive shots, with a modified PAC-2 in Iraq, missed the warheads of SCUDs. That's also technology that is about 17 years old, and there's quite a bit of open literature discussion -- admittedly in engineering forums -- of what and why went wrong, and how to fix it.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

OK you ridicule my use of 'whathisname'. I assumed that if you were as knowledgeable as you present yourself that you would know who I was referring to. His name is Postol. It took me about 15 sec with google to find it.

It seems to me that you are willing to accept the words of the US military that is consuming trillions of dollars of our nation's wealth as opposed to independent scientist who have analyzed the primary data. The military in this country is leading us to bankruptcy.

Ridicule? I'm knowledgeable enough to have been reading multiple sources since the issue first came up; Postol is not the only person who has been discussing it. IIRC, I first saw it on ACM Risks Digest in the early nineties, and it was hardly "accept the word of the US military". It was a fairly detailed analysis of what went wrong. Postol's first paper was in 1992, but it was largely dependent on video tapes of the engagements, and the software, at that point, had not been fully analyzed. As he wrote to John Conyers,


Our review included all 140 videocassettes made available to your committee and the U.S. Army by the Raytheon Company and a substantial body of additional video we obtained from ABC News and from WETA-TV in Washington D.C. In addition, we supplemented our analysis of video tapes with information from press, television, CENTCOM and Pentagon reports about Scud attacks. We believe that this effort has resulted in a new level of understanding of Patriot's Desert Storm performance.

Nothing there about clock drift in the tracking computer software, is there? Perhaps he rushed to judgment, from video of high-speed engagements, when engineers were still trying to understand the internal computer logs?

The Patriot missile system uses a relatively new mechanism called track-by-missile. That means that there is an active radar in the missile itself, which sends back to the control station, but there is also a ground radar that tracks the missile and the target.

To increase the number of targets that the ground radar can follow, it is switched from region to region of the sky, to some extent relying on the radar in the missile for a double check. There was a bug in a software clock in the ground radar system of the PAC-2 system, which, in any event, was an antiaircraft system that had been quickly modified to give it some antimissile capability. Since the PAC-2 was designed for aircraft speed and relatively long range, when the slightly drifting clock rescanned the area where the interceptor and target were supposed to be (and were, but the clock was off), the control computer said "No target? Must have been a false signal. I'll flush that entire engagement from my memory."

Unfortunately, this clock drift only became significant when tracking system had been left on for a significant period of time, which was the case when a particular battery ignored the SCUD that hit the barracks. The problem wasn't immediately recognized because other stations had not kept their computer continuously powered, so the clock drift did not accumulate long enough to cause the target to be lost.

In the current PAC-3, optimized for antimissile use, the engagement ranges are considerably shorter than for antiaircraft engagement, but, due to the greater speed of the target, there's approximately the same intercept window. The specific software clock issue also has been fixed.

Other technical fixes addressed the specific problem of the SCUD derivatives that were especially unstable and broke into several pieces, essentially creating decoys. That is the part on which Postol commented, rather than the broader problem of clock drift causing loss of synchronization between the missile and ground radars. That was a distinct bug.

The mistargeting was a different problem with a different fix. In general terms, PAC-3 now engages multiple plausible targets, subject to decoy discrimination software. Decoy discrimination is one of the more highly classified aspects of any air defense system, and I can talk about Patriot only because I've never seen any of the classified logic, but I understand the general problem from work with other missile systems.

It seems to me that you are willing to accept the words of the US military that is consuming trillions of dollars of our nation's wealth as opposed to independent scientist who have analyzed the primary data

Well, that which seems gullibility to you seems to be your prejudice to me. What you describe as "primary data" has been available for years, but, as it is, I've simplified it considerably. The software problem, offhand, was discussed, at length, by the Association for Computing Machinery RISKS mailing list, the Armed Forces Communications Electronics Association, an assortment of technical mailing lists and newsgroups, and, IIRC, congressional testimony. I'd estimate the "primary data", or at least the summaries of the engagements, were available in unclassified technical forums before 1995.

I suppose I must be brainwashed because I actually looked at the data, waiting somewhat for the software analysis, rather than leaping to judgment as did Postol. ACM Risks Digest specializes in the description and analysis of software bugs of all types, but especially dealing with real-time and safety-critical systems.

Want to reevaluate who is and is not knowledgeable here? After all, I was able to describe the problem itself, not someone's general interpretation of it. As it is, I've simplified the issues, because I didn't think a page of equations would really be useful at TPMcafe.

Incidentally, as far as the military bankrupting us, if there were no war whatsoever, are you certain Bush and Cheney wouldn't find other ways to bankrupt the general American, such as corporate tax breaks on offshoring?
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

OK you do seem to know Postlol's work. Before you pretended not to know. I am beginning to question your objectivity. So you say:

What you describe as "primary data" has been available for years, but, as it is, I've simplified it considerably. The software problem, offhand, was discussed, at length, by the Association for Computing Machinery RISKS mailing list, the Armed Forces Communications Electronics Association, an assortment of technical mailing lists and newsgroups, and, IIRC, congressional testimony. I'd estimate the "primary data", or at least the summaries of the engagements, were available in unclassified technical forums before 1995.

Well if it was available for years why did you ridicule my reference to 'whathisname'. I was just operating from memory. You should have known exactly what I was talking about. But no. You insist that I provide the reference. When I do you immediately begin to discredit Postol as if you knew who I talking about initially.

The military industrial complex is deeply ingrained in our society; why do you keep on defending that system.

See below for wider margins.

Starting anew with a full width screen; see below.

I don't know, but driving up the oil prices fivefold or so might benefit the oil interests just a little bit...

Starting anew with a full width screen; see below. hcberkowitz

Why not keep it attached? Or start a separate blog entry and link/reference to it?  Of course, there is the anxiety of wondering whether anyone would follow you there, but then, that's the mystery, the challenge, and the thrill of great leadership.

=== The US remains, a will so for some time unless we allow it to degrade, the leading center of science and engineering with its great universities and a national laboratories both private and public. ===
Khanna mentions that in the article: since 9/11 the United States has made it increasingly difficult and unpleasant for foreign students to study here. For the first time since the 1920s there are more non-EU students at EU universities than there are non-US students at US universities. Again we have shot ourselves in the foot.
.
sPh

The atmosphere created by the national discussion on immigration has also contributed to this trend. We are projecting an image of xenophobia and culural intolerance if not rascism. The religousity of much of our national dialogue (such as the Huckabee phenomena) also is unwelcoming to potential students and scholars from nonreligious societies, such as Europe, and societies with other religions.

Re: The religousity of much of our national dialogue (such as the Huckabee phenomena) also is unwelcoming to potential students and scholars

Oh good grief this is simply silly! The average American college or university (other than those church-affliated) is totally secularized, as much so as anything in Europe. Sure, you can find colleges where you have to go to chapel daily or sign a statement of theological conformity. but certainly not at Harvard, Stanford or any public university.

As someone who teaches at a major research university and have worked with many foreign nationals, I know what you are saying.

Between the three paradigmatic concepts of hegemony (respect for other cultures and business deals (China), Transnationalism , European Union, and My Way or the Highway, Oceania (USA)) the last seems the least attractive and the least likely to gain partners around the world.

The essential point of that article is that relying on militaristic coercion, leads to opposition not submission, especially since there are other power centers to align oneself with.

We need to change our view of things, but I'm afraid that that it is too deeply engrained in our elites to be a likely thing to happen. All you have to do is look at McCain's saber rattling, 100 year war and more wars to come rhetoric, to despair.

Khanna's piece seems to be a "dark" view, but it ends on a note of wonky optimism that is beyond my ken. At this moment we are looking into a whirlpool.

Khanna sees all sorts of ways of “managing” the world situation, but, what I believe really defines the world situation is that it is no longer manageable. It’s un-manageability is its defining characteristic.

I also think that Khanna is wrong about Russia’s situation. We are going to be looking at a world of much armed conflict actual and threatened and the Russians have very good weapons for sale. In fact they are the only ones that provide antiaircraft systems of a quality that can neutralize the US air force’s superiority. Thus anyone who would like to be independent of US intimidation only has Russia as an alternative. Iran is an obvious case in point.

I would imagine that Russia’s population will increase as the oil and gas money continues to filter through their society. They also have a fair base in pure science as I recall and that is a real ace in the coming world, where science will have to solve so many hair raising problems. Anyway it is silly to write off any people that produced Leo Tolstoy and who drowned Adolph Hitler in their blood.

Really, what I worry most about is the effect this stomach floating drop in power, influence and ultimately standard of living, will have on the Americans themselves. There are certainly plenty of right wing demagogues around in the USA and I am worried by the idea of a “Wiemar - America”, with an apple pie version of “ve vass stabbed in der back” in the not too distant future. There may be American leaders waiting around the corner that could make Bush look good.
http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/

The dangers you describe are real. But it can't hurt to be optimistic. At least act as if we can improve the situation, work to reduce American militarism and then deal with reality if we fail.

I too was wondering about Khanna's view of Russia. I'm not saying he isn't right, but at the very least Russians will not give up their imperial dreams lightly. It is true that without oil and gas, Russia would be far less influential.

I doubt Russia's population will grow anytime soon. They just aren't having that many children, and they don't like immigrants - certainly not the ones who actually might want to move to Russia.

Millions of foreign workers work in Russia. When I was visiting St. Petersburg and we had excursion, of two girls who were guides one was from Western Ukraine (not the part where the majority speaks Russian). I think Russia discourages immigration from China.

Of course, Russia without oil, gas and nukes would be less influential, but it does have them. There is also interesting dynamics between China, Russia, Iran and India, with all four having strategic and economic stake in ejecting American influence from the core of Asian continent.

I haven't read the whole article, but if what you've excerpted is a decent flavor of what to expect, I am a little concerned.

My first observation is the characterization of the European Union as some sort of monolithic new superpower, which always strikes me as inaccurate.

The European Union acts as a reasonably coherent body when it comes to trade negotations. But how long can this unity last whilst trade negotiations founder against the backdrop of agricultural protectionism on which France is increasingly isolated in defending its position?

In any case, this tenuous unity is about the only proper unity that Europe tends to exhibit. Only half the members of the EU are part of the monetary union, there seems little popular appetite anywhere for greater political union, and further expansion of the EU (apart from the Balkan nations) seems a long way off because of deeply entrenched and opposing views. On defense beyond Europe's perimeter, there isn't much unity at all.

I fully accept that there are EU officials who see the EU as a "superpower", but just because they see it as such does not make it so. I view the EU as a group of countries that occasionally act co-operatively, but most of the time pursue their own interests. Their own interests are often tied up with defining relations between EU countries, and it confirms that European "hegemony" or something of that ilk is a fantasy.

Next, there's this assertion:

"India, lagging decades behind China in both development and strategic appetite"

Development in India and China is so vastly different it defies comparison. China's leadership, so far, has staked all on manufacturing. India leadership, so far, has allowed service industries to flourish. Is India 10 years or 20 years behind China? 30? Or is is silly to imagine a any gap given standard development theory purports that India has skipped a phase and is thus already well clear of China?

Plus, India is a democracy. Maybe India has the same foreign policy conundrum as America has, that agreeing on a long-term strategy (as China has) is a heckuva lot more tricky in practice. Basically, it is wrong to assume India has a lack of strategic appetite, it just might differ depending who you speak to.

Then there's this:

"What we have today, for the first time in history, is a global, multicivilizational, multipolar battle."

First time in history? Come on. 70 years ago you had America, Germany, Japan, Russia and Britain in a major strategic battle, or do we need a reminder of how that played out?

But the bigger difficulty is that this time around it is another "battle". And particularly, a battle for what? Resources, maybe. Influence, perhaps. A level-playing field for international trade, I can grant you. But is it really a battle? It just seems a very loaded metaphor, when really the objectives aren't simply to beat Europe at X and defeat China on Y. There's jockeying and competing and co-operating and agreeing, but does anyone see open warfare? Even the ritualistic renmibi revaluation question falls well short of anything resembling open hostility.

In any case, I take it the key concern here is a decline of America's hegemony. Well, my take is that it has occurred because people are no longer as eager for their countries to be like America. To be 100% in America's camp, as was seen to be the case in the Cold War. America's warts are open to more scrutiny these days, and screwing up a la Vietnam carries more serious consequences in terms of international standing.

The question is so much less what can America do to make other countries come round to our liberal traditions, it is what will make other countries want to do so. As I see it, countries want to belong to the European common market (the difficulty is getting existing members to accept them); they want a constructive relationship with multi-billion strong China because they ultimately see this relationship as advantageous, certainly far better than being frozen out.

The question is therefore what America has to offer. Rich corporations, supported by an untrustworthy government, aggressively pursuing their self interests is how America is perceived these days. To reclaim a hegemony worth having, this perception has to change (and that might include dropping the martial imagery when it comes to international relations). Otherwise, America loses a defining battle with herself.

You underestimate the significance of the EU. First off, it is a major development that has few, if any, parallels in history. The last time Europe was unified to this extent was 5th century AD, except Roman method of unification was military conquest.

The EU both is and isn't a superpower. Yes, the member states often pursue their own interests, but if all of them speak with one voice, it is a voice that is difficult to ignore. The unity may seem tenuous, but that's only because at this point there is no one to be really united against.

If you only follow the media, you will get the impression that 90% of the EU population is against any closer integration. Once you start actually thinking about it, you quickly realize that this picture is upside down. The 'eurosceptics' are protesting loudly because that's the only thing they can do. They have no real power, and in the meantime the unification is quietly progressing simply because it makes good business sense.

By 'defense beyond Europe's perimeter' you probably mean aggression and expansionism, and it's true that most people in Europe think that after millennia of near-constant warfare it's time to give it a rest. The EU, if anything, aspires to be a trade empire - no one is interested in unnecessary wars.

Yes, right now there is very little appetite for expanding the EU further, it's certainly unlikely that any large countries would be admitted soon. But this has to be viewed in perspective. Twenty years ago, the EU had 12 member states. Five years ago, it was 15. Now it's 27. Of course the expansion can't continue at this rate.

In closing, I don't know if the tri-polar US/EU/China world is going to happen, but it doesn't sound entirely implausible to me.

I don't dispute the significance of the EU; I dispute its characterization as an entity that has a single "worldview" as the article suggests.

Also, my point was that European citizens appear to be against "greater political union" - I take it that most European people are in favor of the EU in some form, just not an EU that takes too much decision-making power away from national parliaments.

You are correct about defense policy - I meant to differentiate between, e.g. a Balkan War which the EU would reach a clear position on, and a Middle East War, where they perhaps would not.

But one of my points here is to question why the latest "end of history" thesis must be framed as another quasi-imperial contest. In the case of the EU, for many of the reasons you outline, it seems particularly inapt as the continent is decidedly un-imperial right now. Remind me which empire in history dithered over offers to acquire territory?

Well, the EU's worldview is protecting its members' interests. When it comes to external relations, the member states' interests are aligned more often than not. Not always, but quite often.

Sure, many EU citizens rail against 'Brussels Eurocrats' but then again, aren't rather many Americans dissatisfied with the DC pols living in their own echo chamber? Even after two centuries, Americans can't quite decide on what the distribution of power between the Federal govt. and individual states should be exactly. Of course this is always going to be a point of contention in the EU.

The EU is not really any less democratic than national parliaments. I for one think that having a few hundred lazy, clueless lawmaking bums in Brussels is much cheaper and just as ineffective as having a few hundred lazy, clueless lawmaking bums in each country, but perhaps that's just me.

As a case in point, take Britain. The British Eurosceptics scream loudly about how their evil government is giving away vital powers to 'unelected' Eurocrats in Brussels... but you have to ask, how is the UK government more democratic then if it won't let them have a referendum on this anyway?

I didn't see Khanna's article as an 'end of history' thesis. More like a beginning of a new, somewhat different phase in history.

You wrote: "I didn't see Khanna's article as an 'end of history' thesis."

Khanna wrote: "What we have today, for the first time in history, is a global, multicivilizational, multipolar battle."

Sounds pretty grandiose to me...

And I have now read the full article, and I agree with much of the analytical side of the piece. But I still think Khanna is reaching a grandiose conclusion from the quote above. We have had "multicivilizational, multipolar" battles before. Maybe not on the scale of the one he sees for this century, but I dispute that we are watching something without any historical precedent.

But I also dispute the extent to which this is a "battle". Again, his word, not mine. To me, for better or worse, there is a good deal more co-operation than conflict between America, China and the EU. Maybe in time there will be more conflict, but Khanna appears to believe that where there are deepening economic linkages between countries/regions, the risk of conflict diminishes. If this principle applies with, say, Turkey and the EU, why not America, the EU and China too?

Anyways, I think you are misreading my take on the EU. The EU is significant, it is powerful when it acts in unison, it is a very attractive geopolitical model. But it is also a collection of independent nation states, whose interests and views regularly diverge. Iraq is the classic example - the split was 13-12. (Khanna draws an inference from this - he purports that Turkey rejected America's request to invade from the north in order to curry favor with EU countries deciding on Turkey's accession. I think this is ridiculous reasoning; Turkey rejected supporting the Iraq War principally because of the implications for the Kurdistan question.)

I maintain that the EU is not as tightly knit as is often assumed, and predicting the unity of the EU on any Big Question is foolhardy. One of the beauties of the EU is its very loose confederalism, and they'd lose that if they began to behave as a new superpower.

Hey, writers are probably paid for being grandiose :)

The word "battle" is IMO ill-chosen and doesn't gel with the rest of the article. In another place in the article, the word "frenemies" (if I remember rightly) is used, to indicate that the three 'superpowers' will be both friends and enemies at the same time. I think that's much more appropriate (and likely).

I'm not sure the '13-12 split on Iraq' is really a meaningful figure. The population of all EU countries (except perhaps Poland) was strongly against the Iraq war, and except for the UK - which might be about the least typical EU member - the involvement was largely symbolic. I wouldn't draw too many inferences from that.

At the moment, the EU is certainly much more of an economic rather than political powerhouse. That might change down the road, or then again it might not.

Completely agree re Turkey/Iraq - Turkey had very good internal reasons to not wish to disturb the situation in Iraq, and those reasons had nothing to do with either the EU or the US.

You say "I haven't read...". To write your comment probably took the same time it would have taken to read the piece your commenting about.

Sorry.

Having now read the whole article, it seems Steve Clemons excerpted two of the pieces that I am finding it more difficult to agree with.

I maintain that the idea that we are in "for the first time in history, a global, multicivilizational, multipolar battle" is not entirely credible. If that's the cornerstone of his argument, I've got problems, especially with the suggestion this is going to be another neo-imperialistic "battle". (My view is the EU, America and China are all too deeply invested in each other to fight aggressively with each other.)

I appreciate much of the analysis and the perspective Khanna has from his travels to 40-odd countries to research his book. But I don't seem to see the world the way he does... I don't see the point of a new G-3 group of super-duper powers, and I think this idea - "let State raise money from Wall Street as it puts together regional aid and investment packages" - is (a) redundant as it sort of already happens, (b) odd, as sovereign wealth funds begin to take stakes in Wall St firms; and (c) extremely dangerous given the existing perception of America. Anyways, if you think you are in a battle, I guess you prepare one day go to such crazy lengths.

And in a bazillion word article about America, China and the EU dominating the next era of world history, he mentions actual European countries by name just twice (on both occasions as a side detail). You can see my take on the EU in other posts, I think the EU is badly mischaracterized if you don't recognize (a) just how loose a confederation it is; and (b) that it is a source of strength.

Re: Come on. 70 years ago you had America, Germany, Japan, Russia and Britain in a major strategic battle, or do we need a reminder of how that played out?


70 years ago Europe (which culturally includes both the US and Russia) was the predominant civilization of the world, still holidng vast territories as colonies. Japan, furiously aping Europe in ways both good (technology) and bad (fascism), was the only non-European power.

70 years ago, arguably you had Capitalism, Communism and Fascism at war with each other. Europe was at war with itself. Japan and America had their own strategic reasons for involving themselves in the fray. World War II was hugely complex strategically, witness how quickly the winning alliance fractured after 1945 and how soon two of the vanquished countries became very close allies.

My point, anyway, is that the claim - "What we have today, for the first time in history, is a global, multicivilizational, multipolar battle" - is not credible.

Khanna doesn't really understand the EU (where I live).
How does the EU work?
I’m reminded of an old joke (brought up to date) by a wonderful 1950s comedian, George Gobel,

“I make all the important decisions in my house and my wife makes the unimportant decisions. She decides where we live, what we eat, what clothes we wear and where the kids go to school and I make the important decisions, like should we attack Iran."
Or this quote from a very clever 19th century Spanish politician, the legendary Count of Romanones
"Let others make the laws, leave it to me to write the regulations."
That is the power of the EU, to define what is edible or drivable, the cellphone standards, what a good life is about... George Gobel's wife to the world.

http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/

I missed the reference to "Greater Chinese Co-Prosperity Sphere" in the magazine.  Ouch.

Good article, but you have to laugh at the paragraph that suggests we pretend to be Kissinger and advise the president on the best strategy to succeed. If we pretend to be Kissinger our advice would be to bomb anything that moves while keeping it hidden from the American people, use rightwing dictators as shields (and shills) in exploiting regional confrontation, use covert action and undercover operations to overthrow legally elected governments and be completely wrong in every single issue/confrontation/policy, domestic and international and betraying and selling out the president who gave you the job in the first place.

Yes, do all of the above and still get a Nobel Peace Prize and enjoy diplomat emeritus status and policy influence into dotage.


Just a tangential thought:

A major consideration that prevents all the nations from holding hands and singing kumbaya is that pesky problem of scarcity of resources and then who should get what.

Given that, it is every nation for herself.

The point is not that militaristic subjugation of the planet is unethical (that too but in a Hobsean world of every nation against every other nation ethics is irrelevant), but that in a multipolar world where others offer ( for strictly selfish reasons) a more attractive deal, the purely militaristic strategy is losing its effectiveness.

But, you will say, we offer more than the stick, we offer the carrot. What is the carrot?
The chance that everyone on the globe can live the "American Dream". That brings us back to resource scarcity. But besides that the version of "The American Dream" that prevails now is unregulated unfettered capitalism which is kind of bringing the Hobsean world that prevails internationally to the Res Publica at home. It is a harsh docrine. Ronald Reagan was the soothsayer who told us that go-go capitlaism would benefit all Americans. Obama thinks that was "transformational". Obama has since backtracked and claims (implausibly) that he was merely pointing out that it was transformational not that he was endorsing it.

In any case, the people of the world are more attracted to the European version of the social contract than the Hayek version.

That's probably the greatest catalyst to violence in the Palestine/Israel conflict - the allocation of resources. The latest intifada wasn't about Sharon's visit to the temple mount, it was about the diversion of water from the west bank to the settlements. The violence had been sparked by that, the temple visit just enraged them more. I agree with your point about the neo-liberal policies of Reagan and Thatcher.

re: pesky problem of scarcity of resources and then who should get what.

How about this original idea, so insane that it just could work: try to buy those resources. In the worst case, the price goes up and the demand goes down.

More seriously, this is the reason why EU is not getting more centralized: there are simply no challenges that would require that. Common defense? Against Serbia? Every country in the immediate vicinity has one pet peeve: that is not being admitted to EU. Russia's disagreements with EU countries are rather trivial, and given EU penchant for ineffectiveness, in no danger of becoming acute.

So the future danger would need to be further afield, but this is really a joke.

I can see why Steve recommended the article, both because it's well done and because it expresses well where I think he's coming from.  I see it, like his own work, as expressing a certain ambivalence built into the idea of a "liberal hawk" today.

On the one hand, it still is shot through with an older vocabulary, in which the United States looked out for itself by brute force. It talks about how hard it is now to stop others who wish to "thwart" our interests. It asks what a modern Kissinger would do, and it argues even for the need for a serious change in that model by holding the world up to it as a standard. 

On the other hand, it retains the idealism of that older vocabulary, along with an obvious understanding of conservative policy failures and their implications for getting us into deep you know what. It speaks of alliances, but also more broadly in Wilsonian terms of the standards of other nations.  

It has the advantages of helping see what has gone wrong recently, of insisting on a changed world, and of begging for internationalism. Still, I think it's basically unable to recognize fully both what's changed since the older model kind of made sense, when there was a Soviet Union to deal with, and where it didn't make sense period, as when it led to such foolishness as the Vietnam War, its expansion into Cambodia, the toppling of Pinochet, or the hope to keep the Middle East permanently under control with such creatures as the shah. 

I think there was all along a counter, in a liberal antiwar movement that was opposed to intervention but not isolationist. We do need to restore the viability of our military that Iraq stretched to the point of weakness, and we do need alliances, but only in terms of defining military policy, not foreign policy, and not the domestic economic policy that's increasingly more important and increasingly inseparable from foreign policy. When it comes down to it, the worst legacy of the Bush administration and the worst cost of the Iraq war might be economic, with their contribution to fiscal and trade deficits, and they explain the vulnerability to China, Russia, and the "Second" world as much as any lack of properly targeted power.

John 

http://www.haberarts.com/

I think there was all along a counter, in a liberal antiwar movement that was opposed to intervention but not isolationist.
John, well said. When military force is misused, te civilian policymakers need to see personal or party consequences. That doesn't happen very often.
There is no question that some overseas bases are not needed. Some are, for reasons that are not always obvious. For example, there is a satellite receiving station in the middle of Australia. Obviously, there's no threat of invasion there.
It's there to support intelligence collection satellites over Eurasia, with the satellite positions such that a downlink transmission to Australia can't easily be intercepted by Russia or China, who then might know what was intercepted. In the case of Russia, this is part of what is called "national means of technical verification" in arms control agreements. The Russians do similar verification on us.
I don't think that it is inappropriate to collect intelligence on China.
Now, there are bases in Europe that made sense in defending against a Warsaw Pact attack that now will never come. Some are being closed and turned over to the host country. Others should be.
Others are less specific to defense against a USSR-led attack. For example, Landstuhl (Germany) Medical Center is a tertiary care center that services Europe and evacuations from the Middle East. It works with European medical specialists and is a NATO resource.
Something that should be discussed is both the proper role of NATO, and of the US within it. Personally, I find regional organizations such as NATO, the West African ECOMOG, the African Union and others doing a better job on peace enforcement than the UN. Again, what should the US role be?
There definitely have been cases where a Western power took down an immediate problem, turned over to local/regional forces, and then left. I'll take the example of the British intervention in a rather bloody civil war in Sierra Leone, where I have extended family. A Royal Marine force, from ships, came in, broke the most brutal militia, and then phased out as the West African ECOWAS/ECOMOG force came in. I see there being a legitimate role in assisting in what appears to be a regional consensus. Iraq 2003 was nothing of the kind. -- Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Intervention in Sierra Leone is a kind of action that takes several battalions and a lot of international consensus. Bigger internal conflicts are rather impervious to the outside interventions (like Darfur-Chad zone of warfare of all against all without boundaries), but something can be tried. Afghanistan seems to be a disaster showing the "proper role of NATO".

Given that

(1) we are structurally bad at more massive interventions, which are low tech labor intensive endavour which we budget on a level consumerate with a continent-wide hightech warfare,

(2) interventions that we can do are cheap

(3) we have no real enemies that could attack us

it is hard to see what bad would happen if we reduced our military expenditures by factor of 3. Given our monumental ineffectiveness in terms of bang from a back, I hesitate to recommend a reduction by a factor of 10, but admit it: we would be still safe from Mexico and Canada.

Rather than having 800 military bases (and you do not need bases to collect intelligence), we could try to be better at diplomacy, commerce, scientific and technological leadership, quality of economic advise etc. And cooperate with other nations on matters like global warming or the danger of biological weapons (we sabotaged treaties concerning both).

One could even consider less sane idea like GENUINE efforts to spread democracy.

One other thought: in a world where old fashioned dominance is receding in importance, counting who is a top dog and who is not so top dog is somewhat pointless. India will not conquer China, nor China will conquer India, and they are not about to have some war by proxy. Even their commercial interests are not particularly divergent. India would perhaps gain if China did not maintain a mercantilist control over exchange rates, but this is not the stuff of a "global struggle for domination".

A fanny thing is that India actually has something like a zone of influence. For example, her timely military intervention averted a military coup in Maldives.

The ability to have small forces that can react quickly is more important than huge deployments. Part of the problem in Iraq is that the military is being asked to do what is essentially outside its organization and training. In WWII, a couple of years were spent preparing proper occupation forces. In the Sierra Leone case, the British used several battalions, fully expecting to be relieved by a regional peace enforcement force. ECOMOG, that force, was mostly Nigerian, but had enough troops from the other countries of the region such that it was not perceived as a foreign intervention.

We may have a different definition of "base", because some types of intelligence collection require that sensors, receivers, etc., be in certain geographic places. There are some critical peace-related functions, such as detection of violations of nuclear test bans, that require technical sensors in many places. You can't do seismic monitoring from a satellite.

I would hope that my history of posts about there being no particularly feasible way for anyone to intervene in Darfur has been noticed. There are going to be places in the world where a lot of people will suffer and die, and there isn't much an outside force can do about it.

Sometimes, a small and timely intervention may help avoid catastrophe. Had UN Headquarters allowed Gen. Dallaire to do some specific and limited things in Rwanda, the explosion might have been much milder. On his list was seizing radio stations that were whipping up the violence. In the Panama operation, one of the lessons learned was that taking out such facilities early saves lives on both sides; the operation was late in Panama. NATO SFOR in Bosnia seems to have given adequate priority to stop some particularly inflammatory Serbian propaganda.

How did we sabotage the BW treaty?
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

An intervention can be successful if there is a domestic constituency that supports it, and which can effectively rule in the aftermath. Sometimes you can train a force of political (and other) refugees.

Stalin actually did a decent job in Central Europe. A cadre of Communist refugees with local ties was expanded with "fellow travelers" and Soviet officers with appropriate ethnic background or otherwise knowing the local language, the fellow travelers from leftist parties were recruited (typically, to the dismay of the more principled, and soon, former, leaders), large military and security apparatus was recruited and trained and the direct contact of Soviets with local armed opposition was rapidly phased out.

These skillful interventions imposed a system that was otherwise crappy, and hence did not last forever, Imposing a good system should be easier, but some rules remain regardless. To wit, there must exists some group with deep ties to the rest of the society with a stake in the change, and this leverage must be used to rapidly recruit native cadres for the military, security and administration. This is possible only if there exists some mutual trust and cultural understanding.

In Iraq and Afghanistan it seems that we trust no one and no one trusts us. Thus 6-5 years after the beginning of the intervention foreign troops have paramount role in the internal armed conflict, and there is no indication when the native forces can take over.

Can there be something like Comintern for "free market democrats"? I have no idea, but if no, we should forget about any future major interventions.

In Iraq and Afghanistan it seems that we trust no one and no one trusts us.


Remember before the war we had all the Generals cell phone numbers. We promised the army (Sunnis) to keep them and to pay them. We did not pay them and we did not secure the country.

We built up the opposition Shia and now we are going back and building up the Sunni. This guarantees a continuing crisis.

Bush and the Neocons have the victory they want as we are stuck there in the Middle East for their purposes! Nothing has changed, this is his legacy!

I keep going back to Josh’s article on the situation in 2003 Joshua Micah Marshall’s Practice to Deceive
Chaos in the Middle East is not the Bush hawks' nightmare scenario--it's their plan
(link at left)

-----------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking

Chaos does tend to mean there is no unified action. I would guess that is one way of dealing with Iraq, and allowing no faction to get into control -- not bringing democracy in any particular way, but divide and rule. Possibly, this can limit local fighting, but it has no long-term future. If one believes oil interests are involved, chaos tends to drive up prices.

Afghanistan, I suspect, is a bit more complex. Recently, I've been digging into transnational drug trade, especially Southwest Asia. Helmand Province, in South Afghanistan bordering on Pakistan, has become the world's greatest producer of opium. The users seem to be European, but a significant amount, in spite of often draconian punishments for distribution and use, goes, by a variety of routes, into Iran.

I'm not conspiratorial by nature, but I have to wonder if, in Cheney's or some similar mind, it is considered in our advantages to spread opium/heroin, and the resulting chaos, into Iran. If their border isn't quite the Berlin Wall, it's at least reminiscent of the Maginot Line, and it takes a lot of Iranians to man it.

The actual smugglers may be different from the producers; the smugglers appear to be Baluchistani tribesmen that pay attention to traditional tribal areas, not the political borders of Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan.

Baluchistani militants also have been operating in Iran, against their government. I've seen some complicated explanations of how the US avoids directly funding them, such that a Presidential Finding and Congressional notification would be required. Do the threads I've described -- drug, defensive expense, guerillas -- tie together? I honestly don't know.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

If one believes oil interests are involved

Nope

This willingness to deceive--both themselves and others--expanded as neocons grew more comfortable with power. Many spent the Reagan years orchestrating bloody wars against Soviet proxies in the Third World, portraying thugs like the Nicaraguan Contras and plain murderers like Jonas Savimbi of Angola as "freedom fighters." The nadir of this deceit was the Iran-Contra scandal, for which Podhoretz's son-in-law, Elliot Abrams, pled guilty to perjury. Abrams was later pardoned by Bush's father, and today, he runs Middle East policy in the Bush White House :Josh Marshal


Howard
Neocon's interest in oil is only secondary. Josh is saying there is another goal. The Cafe has had this discussion before, it seems we forget the past to create the present.

-----------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking

Or, to give the short version of what I just said, there's no point in talking about what to do now that they can thwart us without first asking what it is we want to do that is being thwarted.

John 

http://www.haberarts.com/

Coaling stations?

First, I did not "pretend not to know" about Postol's work. When reminded, I found a reference about his work, which was very preliminary with respect to the actual problem. Postol didn't occur to me to mention because it was a very early study and there was subsequent much more detailed work on the modified PAC-2 used in 1993. That subsequent work went into the PAC-3 and was discussed significantly in computer science.

I will note that many of the computer science discussions were in general, academic/research contexts, not military ones. The clock drift problem was sufficiently educational, and potentiallty an occurrence in other, nonmilitary systems, that it was very worthy of discussion. PAC-3 was used as an example.

As to "defending the military industrial complex", I suppose that depends on what one means by it. There are absolutely idiotic military decisions, and there have been senior officers that had to think hard to become idiots. One retired colonel, my civilian third-level boss, would get obsessional about toilets not being flushed, and a briefing or memo on the subject could be expected about every month.

Harry Summers, one of our better strategic analysts and historians, said (from memory) that one of the problems of Vietnam was that the criticism that was directed at the uniformed executors of policy was misdirected, and should have been directed at the civilian makers of policy. During the Johnson administrations, a group of civilians (and sometimes one paratroop officer) without any air warfare experience would micro-plan bombing missions against North Vietnam, down to the types of bombs. They lacked the specialized knowledge to know if they were describing deathtraps for the pilots and ineffective damage to the target.

McNamara's "signaling" strategy was so subtle that North Vietnamese, after the war, confessed they had never suspected it. The most damning memo of the war, from McNaughton to McNamara, based strategy on assumptions that were absurd to anyone who had studied Vietnamese history.

By this, I am not suggesting that the US should ever have been a combatant in Vietnam. I believe that the US should have worked with Ho Chi Minh, who was in contact with the OSS (and succeeding organizations) team led by MAJ Archimedes Patti, from 1945-7. Ho was making proposals that would have been reasonable even to the French had anyone looked at them seriously. Instead, the US acted with then-reflexive anticommunism and reinstalled a colonialist.

The actual kleptocracy that took over South Vietnam, lied in the 1954-6 period and never held the reunification referendum, would have failed with the best military in the world. The reason that Ramon Magsaysay succeeded in ending the Hukbalahap insurgency in the US is that he demonstrated that government intended to serve the people, and offering genuine amnesty to the other side. Both sides learned his word was good. This was as Defense Minister; when he became President of the Phillipines, he did both solid and symbolic things to stabilize the situation. His solid contributions included rooting out corruption. His symbolic contributions included throwing open the gates of the Presidential Palace and inviting the people into what, after all, was their oue.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have the sense that you would consider me "defending that system" if I suggested anything done by the military was wrong and should be stamped out. I've tried to start a discussion on roles and missions, yet I was the only one, on short notice, to propose a list that was not discussed in toto. Instead, I got a lecture on "Star Wars", which I never defended if that is the description for NBMD. When I spoke of TBMD, I was chastised for not accepting, as a complete explanation and condemnation, preliminary data that was far less complete than emerged with further analysis.

As I mentioned, there are idiots in the military. There are also some very smart military people that are overruled by civilians, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. GEN Eric Shinseki testified, before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, on historical and analytic reasons why there would be little security once the combat forces of Iraq were defeated. I suspect he had been aware of the OPERATION RANKIN plans for the occupation of Germany, which took several years to plan and to prepare forces appropriate to the task. Rumsfeld ignored all this.

The decision to invade, however, was "above the pay grade" of the military officers urging caution, and also suggesting finishing Afghanistan before distracting attention.

The most damning memo in planning for Vietnam went from McNaughton to McNamara, and was ludicrous for anyone who had studied Vietnamese history. There was additional ludicrous planning by Johnson & McNamara.


The military industrial complex is deeply ingrained in our society; why do you keep on defending that system.

Correct me if I misunderstand, but I have the sense that unless I damned everything military, you would take me as a lackey of the MIC. In point of fact, I was the only one, on short notice, to produce a working draft of a list of roles and missions. You leaped on one or two and complained about how I "believed in Star Wars", which was nowhere in what I wrote, unless you do not understand the policy, even more than technical distinction, between TBMD and NBMD.

I don't know your field of expertise, but I'm sure it has some of its own jargon and abbreviations. Few fields do not; fine art may not be as rich in acronyms as the military, but there are no more damning words about your work than to be told "very interesting". I used TBD (to be determined) in my list. That, to me, is not a military-only abbreviation.

Were I to have been presented with a list of goals, in any field of endeavor, where a particular abbreviation was used repeatedly and I didn't understand it, before I started criticizing the list, I would inquire what the abbreviation(s) meant. I might ask for clarification.

I would not, however, move immediately into hypercritical mode and focus on one or two points.

I'll say again that you are coming across as disapproving of anything being done with the military other than its near-dissolution, rather than focusing rationally on where it is bloated, and identifying the missions that it should now have. It's rather unlikely, for example, that we will ever have to face a large tank force again, and extensively preparing for that is waste. Giving infantry ways to deal with the occasional tank, even if that means pulling back and calling in air support, is another matter.

Genuinely assisting other nations in improving their own defense is not an unreasonable mission, especially when the nations are democratic or moving in a democratic direction. Sometimes, it is a soldier that can make the difference in getting a military junta to schedule elections.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

You raise way too many points to address but I will stay with one and that is Postel's work since it is illustrative of the problem I raised.

I do not believe that any reasonable person should trust the claims of the military and their contractors. The Patriot missile accuracy story from the first gulf war is a perfect example. For days we were shown footage of scuds being blasted out of the skies by patriot missiles. It was one big exciting show that dazzled the entire country. There was one thing wrong. It was all a lie. It turned out that the patriot missed every time. Postel revealed that in his examination of the footage that we all were dazzled by. Now you go to great lengths to argue that maybe he was correct but that the next generation of patriots solved those problems. But the problem is that these guys are liars. Proven, established repeat liars. And they will spend over another trillion dollars this year of our money.

Perhaps one of the reasons I raise so many points is that the subject of theater ballistic missile defense is complex, and Postol did not give a definitive analysis with his initial reports. As he said in his own article, he reviewed video tapes. Video tapes show what is visible, with no clouds interfering, and the size of all objects being within the resolution of the video camera system. The warhead of a SCUD, if it broke loose, is relatively small, and might or might not have shown clearly with the video cameras in use.

I absolutely agree that the public affairs and media people were trumpeting success when nobody -- Postol, the military, or the Queen of Sheba -- knew definitively what was happening.

You are putting words in my mouth when you suggest I argue "that maybe he was correct". At best, he was taking an informed guess. My "great lengths" are an attempt to describe something in which I had no personal stake, but are not as simple, as you, apparently, would like them to be. To coin a phrase, this is rocket science, and doesn't lend itself to simplistic assumptions.

The version of the Patriot being used was one never intended to be used as a missile defense. When the unexpected SCUD threat -- and it was more of a psychological than a real one, since they actually did very little damage -- arose, one of the chief reasons they were rushed into the theater was that Israel was demanding to attack Iraq on its own, not that it seriously could say it had any better chance of stopping the launches, but because it was necessary for its domestic politics to be seen as Doing Something (TM). The rush to bring Patriots into theater was principally for Israel, not Saudi Arabia, since Patriot was seen as a long-range antiaircraft system. Had Israel decided to move on its own, the coalition probably would have broken up, and it would have been entirely likely that there would have been combat between Israel and any number of coalition partners.

Some emergency software updates were hoped to give PAC-2 some antimissile capabilities. For two different reasons, the capabilities didn't work well. Apparently, you prefer just to talk about "But the problem is that these guys are liars. Proven, established repeat liars" rather than address the specifics, which were as much about coalition politics as about the technology.

The serious discussion in the software engineering literature, at a much greater level of detail than Postol, used video only as an adjunct to radar recordings and computer logs. Since the Patriot system is radar driven, there was no guarantee that a video camera was pointing in the right direction.

With further analysis, the problems were found to be in the clock drift I mentioned, and also in the instability of the SCUDs, especially the SCUD derivatives that tended to break up and present multiple targets when the software was expecting one.

As long as your answer to any serious discussion is to call everyone involved a liar -- and yes, there were some -- I see little point in trying to continue the discussion with you. I gave you a serious answer, which can be supported in more independent literature than the early guesses of a single academic, using sensors (video) that did not give a full picture. Apparently, you have damned everyone associated with the military as a liar, and you don't want to be confused by any data that don't fit your preconceptions. I'm really amazed that anyone would assume something that's been worked on for 17 years, with independent evaluation of progress, would is exactly the same.

I can't say I'm the first to say the national BMD system, the one now in Alaska and which the Administration wanted to put in Europe, has failed virtually every tests, is inflexible, and essentially is a multibillion dollar boondoggle about a non-threat. There are an abundant number of independent analysts who have pointed to the problems of testing and basic concept. TBMD, however, deals with a very real problem.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

I am not calling all military people liars, not at all. But their spokepeople certainly are not hired to tell the truth. And whoever was passing information about the patriots in the first gulf war was lying or was seriously deluded.

We are wasting huge amounts of money on these missile defense systems and from my reading about the 'scientific' tests being reported is the military spokepeople continue to deceive.

Forgive me if I misconstrue you, but my impression is that you are so committed to the idea that military people lie that you are not open to looking at there being two classes of system. The first, the national BMD, involves blatant misdirection about both the threat against which it is intended to protect, and the singularly unimpressive test results that give no confidence it works. Not only has the Administration insisted in deploying it in Alaska, it is trying to rationalize, with even less sense, its deployment in central Europe.

Theater BMD (TBMD), is a quite different prospect, with 2 US and one joint US-Israeli systems that have shown reasonable performance in tests, and address some plausible scenarios. By plausible scenario, I include the ability to put certain scare tactics to rest, such as North Korea threatening Japan or Iran threatening Israel. TBMD also has the potential of defusing confrontations between such states as India and Pakistan.

Partially due to learning, in Iraq, what did not work, the current generation of TBMD has a much more realistic design and chance of working in some real-world trouble spots. In some of these cases, TBMD may be a very effective alternative to much riskier alternatives, such as threatening attack against Iran. One additional system is clearly in the R&D phase, with the main idea learning better how airborne lasers would work. If that technology does work -- and no one is convinced that it does, which is why it is labeled experimental -- it offers a different kind of defense: stopping a missile in its launch phase, which offers a number of advantages.

If, however, any technical analysis, with a good deal of independent evaluation, is taken as full of lies, there's little point to further discussion.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

 

--

Howard,

Remember the question that you posed and then I asked you to answer yourself, if you could.

“I still would like to hear a reasonable set of roles and missions.” [My emphasis added this time around ]

Almost your entire list entails what we should have, in your opinion, to carry out a mission. It does not address what a reasonable mission would be. An example.

“Provide TBD Brigade Combat Teams to coalition operations, a mix of Heavy, Stryker, and Light TBD. Provide 2 (TBD) corps troops and headquarters organizations.”

The Brigade Combat Teams would play some role in some mission but a Brigade Combat Team is not be a role or a mission. Right now we have brigades of soldiers filling the role of occupiers and their mission is to quell the violence in Iraq so that civil society can function. Is that a reasonable role or a reasonable mission, all things considered?

If we built a military as a completely defensive force to repel any country that might try to attack us militarily and which was not intended to project force as part of our foreign policy in any way that violated the ideas of “Just War”, would it be a reasonable national policy/strategy In order to protect us reasonably well and would it need to be as large and economically crippling as the one we have maintained for years and which all major candidates to be our next President say they will expand. That is where I have tried to lead the conversation with my question which was, and still is; “I still would like to hear a reasonable set of roles and missions”. Can you help us out with that?”.

 

Assuming good faith on all sides, recognize that it is not a trivial matter to come up with a set of roles and missions. Not all missions can be defined ahead of time, although broad roles can be. I am willing to participate in a true discussion, but I am not willing to roll out a complete set of roles and missions, on the sport, because I don't have a couple of weeks that even a good draft would take.

I am a little worried that you expect me to have a set of roles and missions ready to post, and then to complain if I don't. I am going to assume good faith on this, and that you aren't setting up an online ambush. These are NOT simple things to draw up, and they need agreement on principles first. I am trying to elicit principles on which we agree.

I'd like to refer to "Does the Army Need a Full-Spectrum Force or Specialized Units?
Background and Issues for Congress," January 18, 2008, a CRS Report that does illustrate that force structure is inescapably intertwined with roles and missions.

You may or may not be familiar with a concept called "Total Force", which was Creighton Abrams' attempt for the US not to drift into unauthorized major wars. For those who don't remember him, Abrams was the last four-star commander in Vietnam, and then Army Chief of Staff until he died, in office, of cancer. He was regarded with great respect and his judgment was respected by both military and civilians.

Total Force put almost all the support functions for the Army into the Reserve, and put non-Regular Army combat functions into the National Guard. Before the widespread use of contractors, this would have forced the Congress to take the fairly drastic step of calling up Reserves, and the states would be very aware of the National Guard units being federalized.

Quite seriously, RJB, I think that one of the first priorities of a new President and Congress is to go back to Total Force, with extreme restrictions on use of contractors to avoid the Reserve callup constraint. There's nothing wrong with having legitimate technical representatives of manufacturers detailed to the military, to do training, help interface to the factory, and perform some of the more exotic troubleshooting.

There also can be a legitimate desire to preserve the expertise of military personnel who have retired, or possibly to change some of the forced retirement rules for specialists. At present, there is an "up-or-out" policy that if an officer does not get promoted by a certain time, they must leave. As rank goes up, promotion depends more and more on having command experience. This means that you could be the greatest authority on a missile, or Chinese aircraft, or on electronic countermeasures in the history of the military, and you are still out. Some of these experts become civil servants, and others become contractors of a reasonable sort.

As to power projection, I'd like your opinion which of the following were reasonable (I think some were and some were not):

  • Noncombatant Evacuation Operations in Liberia and the Central African Republic

  • British action to retake the Falklands (hypothetically, assume the Japanese or Chinese decided to take Guam).

  • Reconnaissance flights along the Chinese border, in international waters, for electronic intelligence collection

  • (substituting the US for an actual British force)The legitimate government of Sierra Leone is overthrown by rebels, and the country breaks into civil war. A request comes from the Economic Community of West African Nations to use a Marine Expeditionary Unit (amphibious) and airstrikes (from the US) to defeat the main rebel force that ECOWAS does not think it can beat with its military force. ECOWAS promises, credibly, that they will have a peace enforcement unit, ECOMOG, enter the country as soon as that force is defeated, although they might also need help with air or sea transportation.
  • Attack on the Taliban to break support of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Assume, for this example, that the US forces did not divert to Iraq, and stayed in hot pursuit of al-Qaeda (e.g., at Tora Bora)

  • Providing airlift into Darfur for African Union forces

  • Providing airlift for Belgian paratroopers helping put down a rebellion against a reasonably legitimate government in the Congo

  • Korean War under UN resolution

  • Ejecting Iraq from Kuwait, under UN resolution

  • Peacekeeping observer force in Rwanda, under UN auspices

  • Request from local commander in Rwanda to seize facilities he considered an extreme risk of supporting violence

  • Pursuit of the Janjaweed in Darfur

  • Attack on Iranian forces releasing floating mines (i.e., unguided and with no discrimination of targets) into international waters (Persian Gulf)

  • Attack on Panama should it close the Panama Canal


  • I can support some of these under Just War. I cannot support others, even if just, because I do not consider them feasible.

    Some especially difficult situations arise due to mission creep. For example, the early humanitarian operations, under peacekeeping and humanitarian rules of Chapter VI of the UN charter, were generally successful. The peace enforcement operations under Chapter VII is where the trouble came in, in three directions: mission, giving the on-scene commanders what resources they believed they needed, and on-scene execution.

    --
    Howard

    *equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

    Howard,
    We aren’t getting through to each other. I offer here a very strained analogy as to how this discussion is going and how it has gone in the past.
    We are discussing a mutual friend, someone we both care about. The friend brings home a thousand a month and he spends seven hundred a month on car payments. He thinks he needs a Hummer and Chevy and a Lamborghini to keep up appearances at his job. I ask you, “Do you think he needs those cars bad enough to be letting his kids go hungry“. You answer by describing the drive train of each vehicle. Then I say, “But, does he need them?” You respond by saying that they also have keyless entries”.

    I don't know what analogy to give, but I am unable to define a reasonably complete set of roles and missions in something that will fit in a brief blog post. It had been my intent to give you a set of actual or extrapolated scenarios, to see if we could agree on at least a set of scenarios, taking place outside the United States, where a military intervention might -- or might not -- be something we agreed was or was not a good idea.

    I offered a neutral source of a CRS report, to offer some context for discussion. Those are what I think of as missions, which are intimately intertwined with forces. You don't go and get armored divisions if you expect to be working with supporting reasonable movements in the third world. The word "reasonable" covers societies in which a majority may not regard Jeffersonian democracy as the most desirable thing, which can well apply to a variety of tribal, religious, or Confucianist cultures.

    I don't understand the relevance of your analogy in this context. The problem doesn't reduce to "cars over children" in any way that I can understand. Apparently, then, we aren't going to get through to each other. I give up, because I can only think about roles and missions in geopolitical or operational terms. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of many interventions; I think it would be insane to try to go into Darfur, and it was criminal, as distinct from insane, to invade Iraq in 2003.

    I suggest we do not assume bad faith on either of our parts, but that we accept we think differently.

    --
    Howard

    *equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

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