How Could the Polls be so Wrong?
Damn. The media favored story line just blew up. The Obama romp over Hillary was wrong. It's still early and Obama may eke out a statistical win but he lost. Why? Because the media made the story all about his commanding double-digit lead. Senator Clinton's staff can make the valid claim that they "came back". Media loves the underdog story, normally.
I don't know about you, but I am thoroughly pissed off at the lame, unprofessional conduct of the various networks--MSNBC in particular. They knew that the polls had at least 17% undecided. Rather than simply report that there were a significant number of undecided voters and any projections were not reliable, they danced around like crack addicts celebrating the demise of the Clintons. Hillary is too wimpy. Hillary is too stern. Hillary is too manipulative. Hillary is not manipulative enough.
Special offenders include Chris Matthews, Andrea Mitchell, and Howard Fineman. They were so busy dancing on the Clinton grave that they did not have the decency to do some objective analysis. Hell, they tried to deceive the American people. So much for the death of Hillary's campaign.
For the sake of our democracy, can someone smack the crap out of the media? Jesus! (take that as a prayer and/or a curse).
UPDATE: It is important that the Democrats have a bruising, tough, no holds barred contest. Get all of the dirt and problems on the table now. If not, let there be no doubt, the Republicans will be more than happy to dredge up every piece of trash they can throw at folks. Obama has not yet been truly tested. Let him be tested now. Hillary and John have been through the battle. They are proven vets. No surprises come September for them. We cannot honestly say that about Obama.
This is not a slam of Obama. I am seriously worried about the stars in the eyes of Obama acolytes. We can't afford to give him a pass just because he is an inspiring symbol. He only has two years under his belt in the Senate and has not produced any substantive accomplishments that will cause folks to say, "Wow, what a genius". Get it on the table now. Fight it to the bone. If he comes out on top, then God Bless him. We won't be faced with buyers remorse come September. But do not send him to the real battle without being fully vetted and tested.
The media are not a friend and they are fickle. They celebrate the Messiah. They welcome him to Jerusalem. And they will crucify his ass in a heartbeat if it gets them ratings. Hillary and John understand this. Obama may have learned a lesson tonight. We will see.



Comments (210)
Dude,
What planet you been living on the last few days? Doing the ganja mambo? Storyline was clear--Hillary was toast and Obama was marching to a double digit victory.
Personally, I don't understand why we give a shit what two pissant states like New Hamphsire and Iowa think. They don't represent the United States ethnically or culturally. The real story ought to be why do we indulge in this bullshit fantasy.
January 8, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the "storyline" was baloney. Try reality, like the points above about actual numbers and poll reliability. Not "storyline." Larry.
In reality, Hillary dropped considerably in NH over the last several weeks while Obama gained.
Hillary is only competitive becasue Edwards is still splitting the "change" vote. If he dropped out, Obama would be winning in a landslide.
January 8, 2008 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I also think it's pathetic the people who abuse the rating system whenever they hear reality they'd rather not admit.
At this moment, Hillary has 39% to Obama's 36%, and Edwards has 17%.
If Edwards dropped out, Obama would have a double digit lead over Hillary.
In all the upcoming primaries, Edwards is far behind. And has been for moths. And has never had a more positive vector than Obama.
Edwards does not look to be competitive going forward. Why is he staying in, and having the effect of helping Hillary.
January 8, 2008 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Edwards is providing Obama with much of his best material. Not to detract from Obama, who uses it well. But this goes to the convention, while Edwards keeps Obama supplied with proven material and handles the tougher attacks against Clinton. Then Edwards gives his delagates to Obama and shares the ticket.
This is politics the way it's supposed to be done.
January 8, 2008 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another way that goes is Edwards stays in for his ego, and hands it to Hillary.
Which is what he just did tonight, by splitting the "change" bloc and allowing Hillary to win with a minority vote. If he splits the vote in February, he could hand her the nomination.
What I think he's egotistically hoping for is that he's suddenly going to soar, which is totally unrealistic. Or that maybe Obama could drop out, despite having double Edward's numbers, which is also totally delusional. And even if Obama did drop out, I don't think he could make Edwards a winner.
January 8, 2008 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Edwards is a populist, and some of his supporters might go to Clinton. There is still a portion of the Democratic rank and file that have very low information, don't get what the DLC is about at all, and have been suckers for the Clinton snake oil show for 15 years. They don't get it. But Edwards does get it. So when does he finally make it clear to his supporters that the Clintons must be stopped, at long last, and the sorry era of CEO fondling, Davos butt-kissing brought to an end? It's time for him to join forces with Obama.
January 8, 2008 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I lean toward Edwards at this time, but if he were to drop out, I'd go Clinton. Obama is my third choice. Not because I especially dislike him, but his supporters give me an eerie "People's Temple" feeling.
January 8, 2008 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah swell. This isn't a poll. And for all I know you could be a Hillary supporter just saying that.
I'm talking about survey after survey of Edwards supporters who say Obama is their second choice, and 3rd tier candidates who broke for Edwards and Obama, and Edwards himself, who aligns with Obama and says that Hillary represents what he;s campaigning agianst.
January 8, 2008 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
And for all I know you could be a Republican supporting the weakest general election Democratic candidate.
But questioning someones sincerity and honesty just because you disagree with them is what gives me that "People's Temple" feeling about Obama supporters.
January 8, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which is why I'm talking about logic and data, not personal anecdotes.
Personal anecdotes are less than worthless in anonymous online fora, and the favorite tool of trolls and liars.
Not to mention rating abuse. And we can all see who uses it, just in this thread for example, it's rampant on one side of the deabate.
January 9, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Edwards himself aligns with Obama. All the data I've seen on Edwards supporters say they overwhelming have Obama as second. That's indisputable.
The problem is that by staying in, he's splitting that vote, which is benefiting Hillary. Already tonight he handed her a slim victory, when it could have been a landslide for Obama. And Edwards is never going to win. So what's he jockeying for?
January 8, 2008 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe he's jockeying for change in the current political primary system whereby only one candidate survives past South Carolina.
That's some change I'd love to see. I'd love to see the rest of the country have a chance to vote before all the candidates drop out of the race because people say "what's the point?" after one or two small and statistically insignificant contests.
Iowa and New Hampshire are important only because the media has made them important. The media would, if it could, play the Super Bowl in September and the World Series in April.
Iowa and New Hampshire should be the preseason. They should be exhibition matches. They should be spring training. Instead, they're the championships.
I haven't asked John Edwards, but maybe he thinks Iowa and New Hampshire shouldn't decide for the rest of the country who will be a party's nominee.
January 8, 2008 9:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can't look at electoral politics as some kind of rational market. Psychology factors into it immensely. The majority of undecideds and Hillary's weak support aren't wonks or ideological, and will just vote momentum.
Many voters in big states like CA and NY, particularly less educated voters in regions like Southern CA, who have no idea how the delegate/convention system works, will just vote for the perceived safe bet. Call them momentum voters.
The only rational argument for Edwards is a brokered convention. The problem is he hopes to win more voters to "change" by argument, but by allowing Hillary plurality wins, he's ceding her the momentum vote. That's a self canceling strategy.
There are actually a lot more "change" voters than "status quo" voters, but if Hillary gets the momentum voters, she could go to the convention with a slim majority.
January 9, 2008 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe Edwards is going for the "anti-coronation" vote. Works for me...
“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung
January 9, 2008 12:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Au contraire, barackman. In fact, Obama and Clinton have been appropriating Edwards' ideas and themes. Cf. last night's speeches. And that is why he should stay in. He will force attention to economic/class issues that the others would, albeit for different reasons, just as soon ignore or gloss over. We have to make it clear what this election is about, viz., a choice between two political/economic systems, one serving the interests of the very few, the other (ours) combining opportunity and security for the great majority. Edwards serves this larger purpose, forcing HRC away from a laundry list of incremental programs approach and injecting Obama with a dose of substantive realism.
Besides, it is not beyond imagining that something unknown in the Obama record at this point could cause the Obama wave to dissipate. In which case, Edwards will be well positioned to pick up the banner of transformative change.
January 9, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Out of the three candidates, Obama is the only one who passed major ethics and healthcare reform. He did so in the Illinois legislature, long before even coming to Washington, and long before Washington remembered Progressivism after going corporate for decades.
I'm glad Obama has state legislature experience and hasn't been in Washington for long. Washington wears down legislators towards the corporate interest, unless they come from strongly progressive districts. They're forced into bad compromises and votes, and forced into bed with corporate interests.
At least the States aren't totally over-run by corporate interests becasue the people are closer and it's harder to divide people on wedge issues. It's still possible to pass some local legislation that's progressive on the environment, healthcare, ethics, and so on. that's changing in Washington now, becasue people are sick of it.
Hillary and Bill would just torpedo change, like they did HC reform in the 90's, after the last time people wanted change after an Iraq war and Bush admin.
January 9, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
And btw, waiting for Edwards to win the nomination, or a brokered convention where he gets to support the progressive, now that's naive!
Didn't happen in 2004, and he's doing even worse this year. His campaign is going to be iced in February, no matter what he says, and by giving Hillary the appearance of a winner, with her squeaked plurality "wins" and "comeback kid" crap, she'll also get the uninformed momentum voter, which is what the power broker and insiders (like the DLC) always rely on to put them over the top and get the nomination.
And people are falling for it, again.
January 9, 2008 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're assuming that the Edwards vote would automatically go to Obama. I'm not so sure. I'm an Edwards supporter, but if he were no longer in the race, Hillary Clinton would be my second choice.
I'm sorry that you seem to think that Edwards has no right to remain in the race because he is spoiling your preferred candidate's right to romp to the finish line, but I for one hope Edwards will remain in the race for a good while, even if he continues to run in third place. He has important things to say that nobody else is saying, and I want him to continue to say them as long as possible.
January 8, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I find that very dubious.
All the data on Edwards supporters show they'd go overwhelmingly for Obama. Even Edwards has said he's on the same side as Obama, and Hillary is basically the enemy.
And the fact remains Edwards already lost the nomination to Kerry of all people in 2004, and is doing even worse this year.
I'm all for vigorous campaigns. I'm also a supporter of ranked choice voting, so we can have vigerous campaigns. But the reality remains Edwards isn't doing well and isn't going to be the nominee. At this point he's splitting the change vote which is benefiting Hillary.
Is Edwards going to pull a Nader or what?
January 8, 2008 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. People who say they would break for HRC obviously are not change voters. Obviously, they are not opposed to corporate interests either because Hillary is the corporate candidate. Those people are really anti-Obama and could even be so due to race but it is easier to not to have to acknowledge that race is their issue. Experience is not their issue of they would have supported Dodd, Biden or Richardson as Hillary has the lease amount of elected experience of all the candidates other than Edwards.
January 8, 2008 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I originally supported Dodd.
I think it all depends on your definition of change. The change I want is Democrats no longer bending over to Republicans and letting them run the show even when in the minority. I want to support the candidate I feel most capable of putting a knee on the back of the neck of the Republican political machine.
January 8, 2008 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right.
I think these people who claim to be Edwards supporters, and then say they'd be Hillary supporters, are either clueless or just Hillary trolls trying to be clever.
While I don't personally trust Edwards after he jumped on the Kerry ticket, voted for Iraq, and has done so little for the middle class in Washington, still, if one is to believe his over-the-top promise-the-world populist stump speech, he's the opposite of Clinton. Even Edwards says so.
So Edwards > Clinton? No.
January 9, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
slb, you may be right:
John Edwards won the "cares about people" category in Iowa, but the former North Carolina senator was much less of a factor in New Hampshire, and Clinton seems to be the clear beneficiary of that. It will be interesting to if Edwards has a similar effect on the race in the upcoming states.
– CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider
January 9, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
kozmic, You are off on the Edwards factor--take a look at the CNN exit polls. The votes Edwards picked up would not necessarily have gone to Obama. By the same logic, you should concede that if Obama dropped out, Edwards would be a shoo in. This is nonsense!
I predicted immediately from the Iowa turnout that Obama and McCain would have a common problem in NH. Both needed to get independents not just to like them--that's the easy part--but to vote in the respective primaries. Obama's gain was McCain's loss. Mark Kleiman picked up on the same point early on as well. My bright-line statement for NH was that both McCain and Obama could not win. Period.
Larry's puzzlement notwithstanding, the polls were right--and, I suspect, still are. Obama has huge support in NH. But he might have actually become a victim of his own success--as the independent saw Obama with a large lead, they chose to support McCain in the GOP primary instead (and some voted for Paul), counting on Obama to carry his weight within the party. He did not. If you look at exit poll numbers, despite a huge independents turnout, Dems represented a larger fraction of Dem primary voters than expected. And the party members voted for Hillary. Independents still supported Obama.
On the other side, it was a slaughter--McCain swept the independent vote (with some going to Paul). But the margin was not great. Had the independents stayed with Obama, McCain would have lost. Whether Obama could win is open to question, but don't blame the media for missing an obvious but non-conventional point--the two primaries DO have an effect on each other. Take another look at the CNN numbers. Since when are there so many liberal voters in the Republican primary?
January 8, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, THAT is nonsense.
Obama has double Edwards' numbers. Which means he can afford to get less of Edwards' and still beat Hillary. Edwards would need an unrealistic percentage of Obama voters to switch to him, to beat Hillary. Also, obviously, more people will switch to a more viable group than a less viable group.
January 9, 2008 12:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
EVERYONE split the "change" vote tonight. Obama's message has been co-opted, corrupted, raped and rendered meaningless through constant abuse over the past few days. McCain stole votes from Obama. Romney stole votes from Obama. Hillary stole votes from Obama. Giuliani stole votes from Obama. He's going to need to re-tool his message, because they've torn the idea of change from his hands, ripped it to shreds and trampled it underfoot.
AP just called it for Hillary. I don't believe them.
January 8, 2008 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great point. Somehow he has to figure out a way of reminding voters once again that there are some rather serious reasons to vote for him and against his opponents, while staying on his high road message. It's one thing to say his opponents are all good Americans, etc. But that doesn't mean they would all be equally good presidents.
January 8, 2008 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
If there weren't any other candidates Obama would win 100% of the vote. It's a silly point to be making really.
The silliness is seen when you turn it on it's head: Edwards would be beating Hillary if Obama weren't in the race. Trouble is, of course, he is in the race. So Edwards people would look pretty silly if they argued that wouldn't they?
January 9, 2008 8:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, THAT is silly. But nice try on the spin, oleeb.
What I said was serious: if Edwards dropped out and endorsed Obama, Obama would get most of his vote, and beat Hillary decisively.
Even according to Edwards, he and Obama are the change candidates, fighting Hillary the status quo and corporate candidate. As a supposed Edwards supporter, you're familiar with that, right? Oleeb
You're not just a Hillary troll and chronic liar by any chance are you?
January 9, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you regularly insult people for no reason at all? Get a grip on yourself. The point I made is the point I made and that's it. It's pretty straightforward.
If you, or anyone else thinks they can predict where Edwards' supporters would go if he weren't in the race I think your crazy. Many would certainly go for Obama, but how many is completely unknowable. You know what you, yourself would do perhaps, but not what anyone else would do regardless of whether or not the candidates position themselves one way or another.
January 10, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oleeb:
You write:
"If you, or anyone else thinks they can predict where Edwards' supporters would go if he weren't in the race I think your crazy."
I absolutely agree with you. Consider the labor support Senator Edwards has worked so hard to garner over the past four years. He has been relentless and he has earned deep and lasting support from some of the most powerful unions in the country. Speculation that we can assume at this point that, if Edwards bows out, all of his support in organized labor will go to Senator Obama is simply not grounded in objective fact.
Bruce
January 10, 2008 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then why did "we" drop 20 million dollars contesting those states. Now that it appears that money was a bad investment "we" now will insult the voters of Iowa and New Hampshire. It is that very disdain for the yokels that is sinking Hillary's campaign.
January 8, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is not a disdain for yokels. I am one. Born and raised in Missouri. But Missouri is not representative of the US either. Overwhelmingly white and Christian. Nothing wrong with either, but not a think like New York, Florida, Texas, and California. Little states like Iowa, Missouri, and New Hampshire should not be deciding who the next or best candidate is.
Our system is broken.
January 8, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
lol. They're not "deciding" anything, except in your "storyline." Larry.
Smart people actually weight the results for themselves to determine relevance. Deciding what they think is relevant, and what is not. Try it sometime.
January 8, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
So they didn't decide it, so what's your problem? At least those who vote on Mega State Tuesday will have had the opportunity to have seen some coverage other than TV ads by the few candidates who can afford to buy air time in NY or LA.
January 8, 2008 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually Larry, according to the census bureau, Missouri is a fairly representative state of nearly 6 million people vs NH with 1.3 million and Iowa with 2.9 million, at least in terms of race. The racial breakdown there is 85.1% white vs a 80.1% nationally. The black population in the state is 11.5% vs 12.8% nationally.
Anyone can see a snapshot of the various states by going to:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/
Be that as it may, you are certainly correct that the system is broken. The only advantage that Iowa and NH bring to the table as first primary contests is that they are small. Both, however, present various problems including that they are both states that historically have been far more Republican than Democratic for a variety of reasons. That skews results.
The thing that is most broken about the system, IMHO is that the media morons demand that the result be known in advance. They train people to believe what they believe about the system of primaries, the viability of candidates and what it all means.
The one thing the media don't do is report on what the candidates say, what they stand for, and why those positions are important. No, they focus almost entirely on the horse race and predicting the outcome in advance, deciding who the winners and losers are and they bombard the public with their often totally innacurate prognostications which very often do influence elections toward one candidate or another for all the worst possible reasons.
There's no better example than how they trashed Al Gore relentlessly for two years prior to the 2000 election and thus made the theft of the election in Florida possible. Had the media done their job (which is to report the news)Gore would have kicked Bush's ass and we'd be living a much better country today.
All the media's flaws have been maximized this year with the genuinely ridiculous compression of the primaries. The day after the Feb. 5 primary elections, unless the race is still closely seesawing back and forth between Clinton and Obama, the race will be decided. Between now and then the media will try and pick the winner and bury who they think will be the loser. No matter who the annointed one is, it is a perversion and a complete disservice to the public for the media to act in this manner.
The primary season ought to go back to being a six month contest with states large and small mixing it up. If there's an overwhleming favorite such a system won't hurt them at all. If things are close, stretching out the primaries prevents the public from being stampeded in one direction or the other.
One of the genuinely brilliant things the founders did was to prevent such a stampeding of our governmental process by the "passions" of the moment as they put it. So too, in the Presidential nominating process should we continue to have a buffer between being swept away in a media facilitated frenzy early on when the best choice may not be clear until sometime down the road.
In a compressed primary season, you get stuck with whoever was popular in February and that may not be the best choice for November. This is true no matter which candidate you're for. We may well find that the worst thing that happened in 2008 was all those foolish states jockeying for earlier and earlier primary dates last year.
January 9, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agree in spades on the media. They are a destestably small-minded, ignorant, cynical, and incompetent lot. Worse, most of them are just shills for the RNC. That's where they get their brilliant questions at the debates--or maybe from some retarded 8 year old they met on the way in.
Anyway, this is why the progressive movement needs a counterpart media system, including print as well as electronic mass outlets. The MSM are beyond redemption as are the elite sycophants at the NYT, WP, etc.
January 9, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Iowa and New Hampshire both tell us something and we ought to be figuring out what it is not trashing the people who live there. It's that kind of arrogant, disconnected, inside the beltway, b.s. that will make it easy for me to stay home or vote 3rd party if I have to put up with it for the next 10 months. I don't know how you differentiate yourself from the MSM when you think just like them.
As to the polls, they might have put more trust in them because the Des Moines Register poll surprised them by being very accurate in its projection of Obama's big win.
January 8, 2008 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Any conflict of interest that needs to be disclosed here?
January 8, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Political Consultants' Dirty Tricks -- a must-read for this election cycle
http://www.politicalconsultantmisconduct.blogspot.com/
January 8, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's totally expected that Hillary shills are going to claim she's the comeback kid from this. The reality is that Obama was double digits behind in NH just weeks ago.
Some things to remember:
After Iowa, Hillary needed to create the narrative she was the comeback kid. Her supporters would need to have her over-perform expectations. Lowering expectations was in her advantage.
The reality is Obama was behind by double digits not long ago and has come back several points. Hillary has dropped several points over the last few weeks.
McCain is competitive in NH, which means independents who lean Republican can vote for a Republican winner, in the primary, though it's less likely in the GE.
The polls that predicted a huge Obama win in NH, also predicted a huge Hillary win in Iowa. They're just lousy polls, and people shouldn't follow them.
Edwards is still splitting the "Change" vote, which is the majority, allowing Hillary to remain competitive with a minority.
January 8, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I blame the Hillary mailer lying about Obama's pro-choice record. Women clearly made the difference.
A Clinton aide: "We got our woman back and our downscale voters back and we raised the right questions about choice."
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/
January 8, 2008 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It wouldn't surprise me if that factored in. But I seriously doubt that could cause a several point shift.
No, the problem was once a again people bought into the wrong polls. The sensational data instead of the good data.
Down thread I outline some of the reasons why the last minute polls were really unreliable, and why people should have just stuck with the longer term trends which predicted a close race, and totally ignored the ARG and Zogby polls which can be incredibly unreliable. As I did.
January 8, 2008 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have a good point O-meister.
People tend to forget that Hillary's campaign is also a crusade for a segment of women and women's groups. Their prime issue over the years has been the abortion rights issue. They used it at the last minute and it may have had a big effect on female voters thus being part of the reason she did so well with them in NH vs Iowa where they did not use a similar tactic and did not do so well with women as she did yesterday.
January 9, 2008 7:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
What polls predicted a huge Clinton victory in Iowa, at least near the election?
If you are so certain about what the Hillary shills will say you as a Barack shill are certainly predictable.
Women came out huge to vote for Hillary. From all the women I know they are sick of the sexists in the Media and elsewhere.
Daniel A. Greenbaum
January 8, 2008 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's not what anyone said. Go back and read it again.
January 8, 2008 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
btw, I've been watching this user:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/user/smacfarl
becasue I noticed he was suddenly posting a lot to slag Obama, but not much of a contributor overall. Also, that he's pretty fond of rating abuse.
Which is the case for a lot of people suddenly popping out of the woodwork to slag candidates and do rating abuse.
So I went back and read through his posting history. The guy popped up here on late 2006, which is just when Obama was considering a run and getting some discussion here. And, from the very beginning of his small posting history, smacfarl has been slagging Obama.
So, beware these people who pop up on single issues, during election times, and don't seem very real. They're probably not.
January 8, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
And speaking of rating abusers who have suddenly come alive to shill for Hilalry, and who just rated that 0:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/user/zk0sm0
January 8, 2008 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
shows how much you pay any attention to anything other than yourself, kozmik. i have clearly and repeatedly identified myself as an edwards supporter.
you need to stop trolling people and maybe recognize that the ratings that so many people have been giving you might just reflect the content (and tone) of your comments.
when you post a comment that amounts to trolling, i will gladly rate your comment 0.
when you post a comment that is unproductive (like many of the personal attacks you've been resorting to these last two weeks) i will gladly rate your comment 1.
when you post a comment with content that i think is merely marginal i will gladly rate your comment 2.
and so on....
if i remember correctly you posted a comment some time today that i thought was good and *surprise!* i gladly rated it 4.
January 8, 2008 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Big Billy Boy from Arkansas started whining that the press was being unfair to his wife. Like clockwork, Larry 'Hillary's echo chamber' Johnson repeats the party line. At least today he is not claiming to be an objective outside observer but is coming on as a real partisan. Keep it up, we will have more respect for you if you are willing to come across as an honest Hillary supporter.
Having said that, we were really hoping that Obama would trounce her yet again. Maybe not tonight. It is going to be a real fight. This is going to be fun.
January 8, 2008 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You guys are delusional. If that is typical of Obama followers you'll get clobbered. Try some reality. Obama was supposed to "win" by at least 9 points, maybe more.
You keep missing my basic point, because you are so busy thinking with your heart or your ass. The basic point is that the media presented as "fact" poll results that anyone with minimal statistical knowledge would recognize as unreliable because there were so many undecided. As a result, Obama suffers a crushing defeat. That's the perception. That's the story the media is now trumpeting. Does not mean it is true, but that is there story.
Please, grow a brain and use it. And honestly, if Obama had won by 9 points are you saying that you would be arguing Hillary was still "in" it? Don't think so.
January 8, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
The media is broken... that seems clear. But by the same token I would hope that Clinton realizes how destructive her use of Mark Penn and that ilk is to her standing and her ultimate ability to unite the party and govern in the way she would like.
It is fine to be loyal - and perhaps some of that makes sense for the political moment of the 90's - but if we are going to turn this around then we can't fight the last war. If we do, we are simply going to be accepting the status quo moved radically to the right given to us by Bush et al. And that is not acceptable no matter what letter the president has by their name.
January 8, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like the way you come out swinging.
January 8, 2008 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Keep up your valiant battle Larry...you're up against folks who are SO closed-minded that they'd deny it's raining in a Hurricane -- and call you an evil fool for challenging them.
But you're dead-on and they are in shocked denial. This is a real race and it's Iowa and the dunderheaded media pack that have no relationship to reality.
January 8, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
No we did not call Larry an evil fool. We called him on his dissembling, his attempt to come in here and present himself as an objective observer while pushing Hillary talking points. Today he is being much more honest in his partisanship and we applaud him for being more forthright.
January 8, 2008 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
So far it doesn't look like it's the undecided vote that was the main factor. I believe they broke fairly evenly for Obama and Clinton. I talked to a New Hampshire political scientist on New Year's Eve, and he said this race was all about the relative proportions of Independents and Democrats who would vote in the Democratic primary. Obama is favored overwhelmingly by Independents, and Clinton had a solid lead among Democrats.
Independents did turn out heavily, but a number voted in the Republican primary - perhaps more than was predicted because that race was perceived as closer than the Democratic race and they might have calculated their vote would be more important there. However, the Democratic turnout was massive, in part because Democrats are so energized and in part because the weather here today was very warm. Clinton won in the cities.
January 8, 2008 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
According to MSNBC's exit polls, that break was exactly even.
One factor may have been women: they went for Hillary Clinton in much greater numbers in NH than they did in Iowa. Women were 57% of the voters in the Democratic primary, and Hillary won the majority of them, unlike in Iowa, where Obama got a majority among women.
Olbermann, I believe, observed that the mild weather may have helped to bring out older voters as well as young ones, and the older voters are also more heavily for Hillary Clinton than younger ones.
January 8, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, that's probably true. But unfortunately I think the crying jag also worked. I suspect we will find out over the next few days that a number of women who had bounced to Obama bounced back to Clinton after the she cried about how her feelings were hurt because she might not get her pony. The warm mushy feeling will probably only last a day or two, but it was long enough.
January 8, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You may be correct about the emotion moment, but in the end, nobody can say with great specificity why the result turned out as it did. The best guesses can only be about broad trends. The number of independents who voted Republican instead of for Obama in the Democratic primary, combined with the shift of women to Clinton and away from Obama are the trends that counted yesterday. As much as I detest Russert, this combination is what he identified last night and I think it's valid. Specificaly why this happened is nearly unknowable. Anything beyond that is just speculation really.
January 9, 2008 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Crying jag? What crying jag? A brief pause and a tremor in the voice do not a crying jag make. I watched it several times, and nowhere does she come anywhere near actually crying, let alone going on a crying jag.
January 9, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I gotta concurr.
January 9, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK.
"Welling up" then. Anyway it worked.
January 9, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't even see 'welling up.' Sorry. There's a microsecond hesitation, and then she speaks quickly and quietly, but her words are entirely focused and rational. I don't see it as anything at all. It's basically a media invention.
But it was a media invention that the media was unremittingly critical of. All the coverage was negative, half the commenters claimed she was faking it. I don't see any obvious or actual sign anywhere that it got her any traction.
At best it was a non-event, manufactured for attack by the media, which was part of the 'collapsing Hillary' narrative, and either hurt her or simply didn't matter at all.
And frankly, its sort of insulting to claim that Hillary's or anyone's voters are so brain damaged that they're swayed by these impulsive whims.
Maybe the real issue is simply that Hillary had a really good organization and a really good 'get out the vote' effort.
January 10, 2008 7:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of unconscious responses, when Clinton "welled up" she was not speaking in her large-room voice. I find that tone hard to take, too much "Mars Attacks" ack-ack.
She was using the personal tone I like, that we used to hear in interviews. The current wisdom, which I agree with, is she is warm in small groups, but harsh and less friendly in large settings.
Before someone jumps on that as sexist, can we remember the complaints about Gore the bore and Bush the friendly guy?
January 10, 2008 8:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
~
Larry said:
Screw the perception. Screw the story. Here's the results with Obama's crushing defeat:
This is the breakdown of the twenty-two (22) New Hamphsire Democratic delegates awarded:
Next!
Hey Larry, kickback and pour yourself a little more sherry. And leave people's asses out this!
~OGD~
January 9, 2008 1:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Words matter. Perceptions matter.
January 9, 2008 6:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with you about the sort of push polling the media engages in. And I have to humbly submit, Larry, that you and other bloggers are a part of the media. I only wish that when the pundits embarrass themselves like this, they would refrain from continuing to push their narrative lines and do some real reporting. But it'll never happen because spinning is their real purpose. Maybe, someday, someone will reach across the table and slap that monkey smirk right off Tim Russert's face and the camera would track that smirk as it hit the floor and rolled right out of the studio.
January 8, 2008 7:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me, part of the media? Thanks for the promotion but I have no control over who reads or does not read my stuff. My so-called influence, which I question, comes only if someone takes time to read what I write. They have to choose. I can't chose for them.
That's not the case with the major media outlets. They control content and have a unique grip on the market. But hey, I'm flattered.
January 8, 2008 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Larry, I disagree. You publish news analysis for the public; that makes you media. No one has to watch Fox news either. The difference between you and the major media outlets is not that they force feed news to a to a captive audience but that they reach a lot more more people. It's a difference of degree, not kind.
Frankly, I don't care that much if you or Josh or the major news networks get the forecast wrong, but I'd like to see some introspection before you lash out at other media outlets.
January 8, 2008 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, Larry is a part of the media insofar as his opinions are published.
However, it is quite a stretch to lump in someone who posts on the net (even on a popular blog like this) with television, radio and the major print media.
The audience here is teeny weeny in comparison. Also, Larry is here openly and obviously offering his opinion. NBC, CBS, ABC, Fake News, MSNBC, CNN, etc... are supposedly "news" organizations "reporting" the news to the public. Big, big difference.
January 9, 2008 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for explaining that, Oleeb. I quickly posted this last night and couldn’t get back to it. For some reason, I cut the explanation that I had of the line about Larry and blogs being media, too (a “people in glass houses” thing). Of course, blogs are a completely different beast than traditional media. My intent was only to say that blogs like TPM should not prejudice voters the way that a Bill Kristol or Bryan Williams try to.
Demagoguery and crass partisanship is fine when discussing issues but should be kept out of election news and information. When Larry or MJ post on their preferred candidates they’re often straining to make an issue out of something that isn’t. Their partisanship doesn’t inform but muddies the water. I think many in the “alternative” media have been falling into the traps set by the MSM storyline. When TPM headlines the “viable” candidates as sure winners, it is abetting the MSM in creating self-fulfilling prophecies.
The influence of blogs is small but not inconsequential because influential people read them (including MSM journalists). Sometimes, a hit piece on line is soon on air. Look at the relationship of Drudge to Politico to ABC and WaPo (or Drudge to anyone). Usually the bias is subtle like pushing polls. The headline in my local paper today is “Clinton Edges Obama, McCain Wins Big” when one won by 5 points and one won by 3 points. I think progressive blogs should try to be an antidote to that kind of deceitful campaigning.
Larry has an excellent post next to this one on the politicizing of DoD. It is well written, well sourced, and provides substantive information in a rational tone. When it comes to candidates and campaigns, though, it seems that rationality is thrown out (and fairness is the baby in that bathwater). Traditional media has become the biggest obstacle to having fair and informed elections in this country and many of us have turned to the blogosphere, which has provided an excellent alternative to corporatized news. That is nowhere more important than in national elections.
January 9, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do think that all of us, the entire nation in fact, is trapped in the storyline woven by the corporate media But how to get the nation out of it is the big question eh?
January 10, 2008 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
True. I don’t think the nation as a whole can avoid the media spin. Most people are too busy to search out unfiltered information. But I think the media can be criticized and countered with some impact. Funny enough, Greg Sargent has a piece at TPM today about a mea culpa over political coverage by Politico of all places.
I distrust Politico usually, but this is a pretty good analysis. As Sargent points out, though, the proof will be in if and how they change. He also calls for improvement at TPM.
January 10, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
See. This is precisely why the Clintons need to get off the nation stage. Who in their right mind wants to relive all this crap?
January 10, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haha, Rachel Maddow now telling Chris Matthews that TPM is blaming Chris Matthews.
January 8, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a hoot!
January 8, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Consider it done Larry. Look at Chris Matthews. He is getting the crap slapped out of him right now. Thank you, NH.
Let's share the blame with Edwards though, calling for a 2 person race between him and Obama after ONE caucus. And Obama himself, already acting 'presidential', according to MSNBC, above the fray in the debate the other night.
We've had to sit through a year of pre-game on this election, the least the media and the candidates can do is let us actually vote in every state before declaring victors. Again, thank you NH.
January 8, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama was exhausted after none stop campaigning he even saw a doctor the next night. Please. One thing Obama is not is 'above the fray' his race doesn't allow him that luxuy unlike the crying emotional 'that hurt my feelings' whinning that Hillary playing the gender card allows her.
January 8, 2008 9:19 PM |