Pakistian, Palestine and Israel
A few hours after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, I happened to see an interview with a group of Pakistani university students who were part of a stunned mass of grieving people on the streets of Karachi. They all looked and sounded secular, educated and western. The reporter asked them about Bhutto's death, prospects for democracy in Pakistan, and what they thought about the United States.
They had varying opinions, arguing among themselves and cutting each other off until one young woman brought up the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "Of course," she said, "we all feel such rage against the United States because of what is going on in Gaza. This is something all Pakistanis feel." The others nodded vigorously in agreement.
There it was. Take pretty much any group of Muslims—Arabs, Iranians, South or East Asians, whatever—and the one subject on which there is near universal agreement is the Israeli-Palestinian situation.
In the United States, little attention is paid to news footage of Palestinian funerals in Gaza or settler brutality in Hebron. But in the Muslim world, these are huge stories, in part because it is the only issue about which there is a clear consensus. It’s no different than the Israeli media covering outbreaks of anti-Semitic violence somewhere in the Diaspora—equal parts empathy, solidarity, and fury at the perpetrators and their enablers.
From Egypt and Jordan all the way to Indonesia and Malaysia, American interests are injured by the perception that the United States is responsible for Palestinian suffering. Not long ago viewed as aspiring honest brokers, we are now seen as the one nation in the world that could help end the occupation of the West Bank and the blockading of Gaza, and isn’t even trying.
That is probably the main reason President Bush is traveling to Israel and the West Bank next week. He understands that his direct, personal, and very visible intervention is critical if America is to have any hope of convincing 1.6 billion Muslims that we are at least trying to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and create a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
He needs to demonstrate that despite the rhetoric in some circles here about Islamo-fascism, we are not engaged in a civilization war against Muslims (Norman Podhoretz and Daniel Pipes, notwithstanding).
Not surprisingly, there is considerable skepticism that America intends to do anything to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and not only in the Arab and Muslim world.
During the past seven years, the Bush administration has repeatedly promised that it was going to push hard for negotiations. And every time, after a well-publicized announcement, the initiative was left to wither on the vine—with the encouragement of powerful elements of the pro-Israel lobby who pressed their minions on Capitol Hill to ensure that peace was not given a chance.
Take the example of the Colin Powell mission of 2002 It was typical of the half-dozen or so administration forays into Israeli-Palestinian diplomacy (as described by Yediot Achronot columnist Nahum Barnea and Brookings scholar, Ariel Kastner, in their Saban Center monograph, Backchannel: Bush, Sharon and the Uses of Unilateralism published in December 2006).
On April 4, 2002, with the second intifada raging, President Bush delivered a speech endorsing the two-state solution and dispatched Secretary of State Colin Powell to the region to get the violence halted and negotiations started. Powell made surprising headway and was about to announce an Israeli and Palestinian agreement on an enforcement mechanism when neoconservatives inside the Administration convinced Vice President Cheney to shut him down.
Powell was told to abandon mediation and to make sure that the full burden of accountability was placed on the Palestinians with no demands made of the Israelis.
That ended the Powell mission. He came home empty-handed.
A year later, the Administration put forth the Roadmap, largely at the insistence of then British Prime Minister Tony Blair who believed that the US and Britain could not succeed in Iraq so long as Arabs saw America as sustaining the occupation. The President attended a summit in Jordan—along with Ariel Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas—at which he declared he would push hard for a deal and would personally "ride herd" on the process.
Again, neocons at the Pentagon and the White House mobilized to prevent movement by telling Jerusalem that Bush had no intention of holding anyone’s feet to the fire. They assured the Sharon government that it was safe to re-interpret the Roadmap in a way that guaranteed its failure (which it did by insisting, with Bush administration approval, that Israeli commitments under the Roadmap need only be implemented after the Palestinians implemented all of theirs).
The pattern repeated itself several more times before 2007 and it was always the same. An initiative would be announced, only to be derailed by neoconservatives here who worked with their counterparts in Israel to preserve the status quo. Their task was made only easier by the periodic outbreaks of terrorism which they used as a pretext for doing nothing.
So why should it be any different now?
One reason is that most, although not all, of the neocons have left the Administration (most notably the group around former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld). Once it became clear that the Iraq war, which they had championed, had become America’s costliest foreign policy failure, some of its leading proponents left office. They were the same officials who were the most active opponents of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations and of compromise by Israel in general.
Now most of them are gone.
But the surviving neocons are nowhere near as strong as they once were, not after a succession of deadly failures. They are certainly not strong enough to thwart a President who is determined to pull off an Israeli-Palestinian agreement during his last year in office, especially if that President has an ally in the Israeli Prime Minister.
This is new. During most of the Sharon years, US officials who were determined to preserve the status quo had a strong ally in the Prime Minister of Israel. That is no longer the case. In fact, it is no secret that the neocons are none too fond of Olmert, who they see as hopelessly dovish. Bush, on the other hand likes and trusts him.
Gone are the days when aides to the President of the United States would call aides to the Israeli Prime Minister to strategize on how best to put the breaks on US peacemaking.
In short, the terrain has changed dramatically. Sharon and Arafat are out while Abbas and Olmert are in. Donald Rumsfeld, who shared the views of his neoconservative assistants, Douglas Feith and Richard Perle, was fired and replaced by Robert Gates who most decidedly does not. Even Tom Delay, who always prided himself at being more hard-line than the Israeli right, was forced to leave Congress while Speaker Nancy Pelosi believes that supporting Israel requires backing peace efforts not thwarting them. As for Thursday's big winners (Obama and Huckabee), neither are neocons and their hero, Rudy Giuliani, is going nowhere.
And then there is George W. Bush.
Frankly speaking, there is no reason he has to go to Israel and Palestine. It is a long and arduous trip, with no guarantee of success, and he has resisted going for seven years. The only reason he is going now is because he is determined to make Israel-Palestinian peace his positive legacy.
Can he do it?
Indeed, he can. All it takes is the will. I doubt Bush knows much about Theodor Herzl. But there is one thing I hope someone tells him. It was Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, who said, "if you will it, it is no dream."
If that was true for a 19th century Hungarian Jew whose dream was to re-construct an independent Jewish state lost 1900 years earlier, it is certainly true for an American President in 2008. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians, both dependent on America, can say “no” to a determined American President. All it takes is Presidential will.
We’ll see soon if Bush has it.














"if you will it, it is no dream."
Nice try, MJ, however, they've beaten you to it--the name of their dream is 'The Project for a New American Century.'
Bush's 'demands' will receive a more politic reception from the Israeli govt. than Sarkozy's demands from Syria, however, the end result will be the same--bupkis.
January 4, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Along those lines, over at Commentary, the neocons are crying over the victories of Obama and Huckabee. This is not what they had in mind.
They will now all go gung-ho for McCain, who is Giuliani without the charm. :-)
January 4, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Please forgive my archness--I think the message of your post is one of hope, but in this case, my cynical view is that this is window dressing for the future Bush Liebrary. Also, practically speaking, I believe that diplomacy is a skill that is achieved with practice, not decreed in a White House Press gaggle.
On the comically dark side, one just has to imagine how 'President Huckabee' would fare in this situation.
January 4, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's being advised by Frank Gaffney. Further comment unnecessary.
January 5, 2008 7:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can you imagine? We have wasted more than $1 trillion in direct and indirect costs in Iraq. And the neo-cons are now threatening Pakistan. Apparently, bankrupting America is the neo-con's real agenda.
January 4, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
This trip by Bush is not a bad idea in that I can't see how his going could make the situation any worse. It has the advantage also of keeping him out of trouble elsewhere. So here is rooting for something good but we all know that it is extremely unlikely. MJ you seem to not mention the one big negative in all this. What happens if Bush tries to force Olmert to, for example, not build the new housing in the West Bank. Obviously, the Israelis will activate the lobby and we will see 100-0 votes in the senate and 400-3 votes in the house backing Israel's intransigence.
January 4, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good. And the longer peace is put off the more certain the one-state solution becomes! Rejoice!
January 4, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
mythbuster,
Wow. And some folks around here have the nerve to insist that Zionists are the warmongers.
January 6, 2008 8:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
First of all, many more Muslims are dying due to radical violence in Pakistan than Gaza. We've seen both Sunni's and Shiites blown up IN THEIR MOSQUES by radical suicide bombers. It's disgusting and despicable, and there is no occupation to justify it. This should remind all the rational minded that Islamic radicals use the "injustice de jour" to justify their actions, when in fact, US and Israeli policy has absolutely nothing to do with their behavior.
MJ's comment that both sides will do what Bush tells them is laughable. In fact, both Israel and the Palestinians have told the US "NO" on many occassions. Hamas most recently has refused to recognize Israel or comply with existing agreements, and Israel is not going to agree to a right of return that will amount to national suicide. US influence on these tough issues is nil.
If Pakistani Muslims really wanted peace, they would get behind the peace process and support a two-state solution, which includes tough Palestinian compromises, and they would utterly condemn radical Islamic violence. Their own nation is threatened with the ruinous leadership of radicals. They could be easily become another Gaza with all the suffering that goes along with it.
January 4, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yea, "tough Palestinian compromises"...like what, just disappearing?
When someone bleats out the usual crap about "...U.S and Israeli policy has absolutely nothing to do with their behavior," you know their noggin is empty, and the lizard brain is all that functions.
Your comments aren't so such much offensive--as they they funny. And your ignorance of daily Palestinian life is PROFOUND.
January 4, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I already laid it out, Buster. Recognizing Israel's right to exist, respecting a national border with Israel, realizing you're not going to get a right of 1 million Palestinians to return to Israel. These are tough compromises that will have to be made -- in exchange for the same on the other side, but the prize is statehood.
What don't I know about Gaza, Myth? That Hamas has created chaos and anarchy, that they brutally oppose anyone who opposes their agenda -- that nobody trusts anybody outside their own family, that there is a complete break down of the rule of law and order? Radical Muslims are slaughtering people from Afghanistan to Indonesia to the Phillipines, and you have the audacity to proclaim it's different in Gaza. Tell me where I'm going wrong here? It's easy to hurl insults. How about backing them up.
January 4, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
But they have recognized Israel's right to exist--what has not been recognized is the explicit Jewishness of Israel. Two different things--I would object (and have) when people have talked about recognizing the US as a 'Christian nation.' Nations are for people, religions are for churches.
Israel left Gaza, great--the cynic might suggest that it is because there are precious few resources in Gaza for the Israelis to exploit. However, illegal settlement elsewhere continues unabated, as it has for the past 30 years, and the Israeli govt. has been very imaginative in dodging the scores of UN resolutions that condemn Israeli actions under International Law.
One could call the illegal settlements the Chicken to the Hamas egg. Which came first?
January 4, 2008 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gaza is not the first place Israel has vacated. The Sinai actually cost them a lot more in financial terms. There hasn't been any violation of the treaty with Egypt to vacate the Sinai, respect the border, and try to live in peace. So, we do have a historical example of Israel giving up land for peace. I'm suggesting we would see the same in the West Bank and Gaza -- if we had a Palestinian Anwar Sadat.
January 4, 2008 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Israel made a deal with Egypt, great, but this dodges the question of the rapid expansion of illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories over the past 30 years.
I'm suggesting we would see the same in the West Bank and Gaza -- if we had a Palestinian Anwar Sadat.
The cynic might suggest that one reason the Palestinian Anwar Sadat, or Thomas Jefferson, or what have you isn't on the scene is because he's in an Israeli jail, or has been killed in an Israeli state-sponsored assasination.
Someone else might say that the closet thing to such a person is Marwan Barghouti. You can say that he has blood on his hands, but the same thing can be said for many of the great Israeli leaders.
January 4, 2008 8:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
many settlements are going to have to be dismantled or protection withdrawn, and every Israeli understands that. Olmert even suggested this week that a partition deal on Jerusalem is likely. These are tough calls that will create a lot of turmoil in Israeli society, but if they can get the same kinds of tough compromises on the other side, a Palestinian state will emerge. Given the situation in Gaza, it means civil war, unless you get a significant prescence of int'l troops or Arab troops on the ground there to dismantle the armed militias and enforce a treaty. Palestinian society is too weak and fragile to make a deal without outside security assistance. This is where all the peace talkers have to put up or shut up. They have to do more than talk and that means put boots on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza.
January 5, 2008 6:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lots of things that Olmert is saying are helpful. Let's see about the execution. With the Zionists, their words are worthless, it's what they do that matters. And does Olmert really mean dividing Jerusalem or dividing the suburbs and calling them "Jerusalem." Calling Queens "Manhattan" doesn't make it NY, NY.
January 5, 2008 7:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
myth, Queens *is* one of the five boroughs that make up New York City (Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Staten Island and the Bronx)
January 5, 2008 7:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
"left" I know you know two things: (1) "NY, NY" refers to Manhattan, not Queens; and (2) living in Queens is not really like living in NY. I think you missed the point of my post.
January 5, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wasn't trying to bring down your point, but having lived there, one thing I know is that you'd be in trouble if you suggested to a resident of Queens, Brooklyn or the Bronx that they're not a 'real Noo Yawka.' ;>
January 5, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
But people in Brooklyn and Queens do say they are going to "New York" when they mean "Manhattan."
It's a throwback to the pre-1898 consolidation.
January 5, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, what we need is a Jewish Anwar Sadat.
January 5, 2008 7:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Israel actually "left" Gaza, and Gaza has a coastline, how come Gazans can't open their port? How come Gaza's airport can't re-open? How can Israel block the delivery of batteries to the hearing-impaired children of Gaza? I think using the world "left" here is, at best, ironic. If the guards at a prison just moved the the perimeter, would the inmates be free?
January 5, 2008 7:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
How come? Because no sane country will enable the creation of a neighboring state capable of attacking it.
Encouraging the Palestinians to persist in their tactics just prolongs their recovery.
And once the guards have left the asylum the inmates are responsible for their own actions.
To be a 'noble cause' for the rest of the Muslims has been an utter disaster for the Palestinians. This is driven home by the comment of an Egyptian ex-Pat that the Arabs were quite willing to fight to the last Egyptian.
The use of offense at the injustice of the treatment of the Palestinians to excuse far worse injustice of treatment of Muslims by Muslims (think of the magnitude of the problem in Darfur) is widespread. Frequently, it is used -- as with the Pakistani girl's use of what is going on in Gaza to paper over the differences of opinion among her friends -- to generate a false sense of unity and to distract from the need for reform. Hey, I may be a corrupt repressive regime but at least I hate the **** oops I meant to say Zionists as much as you do.
January 5, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
How does it feel to be utterly and totally wrong? You probably feel that way all the time.
Let's just focus on the first gem, because correcting you is exhausting: "How come? Because no sane country will enable the creation of a neighboring state capable of attacking it."
Since "capability" is your test, the Gazans will never be able to be free. See that is the beauty of the preemption arguments, they are always right...because you say so.
January 5, 2008 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and apparently Fatah as well. Hamas allows the firing of missiles at Israel on a daily basis. Therefore, Israel is going to both prevent Hamas from importing more weapons and limit their ability to function of a government.
Israel pulled out of Gaza. American Jews paid $12 million to preserve greenhouses which the Gazan promptly destroyed. Nothing has prevented Hamas from creating a normal government in Gaza. Instead they kidnapped an Israeli solidier inside Isreal, went to war with fellow Palestinians and continue a lowgrade cowardly war against Israeli civilians.
The inmates will be free when their jailers, Hamas, decides they will be free.
Daniel A. Greenbaum
January 5, 2008 8:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
"But they have recognized Israel's right to exist--what has not been recognized is the explicit Jewishness of Israel"
Assuming this is true and leaving your opinion out of it - They have no problem recognizing their fellow Muslim nations as just that, Muslim - so why not recognize the Jewsishness of Israel?
"One could call the illegal settlements the Chicken to the Hamas egg. Which came first?"
Doesnt matter which came first. For Hamas Tel Aviv is an illegal settlement. Unlike the moderate Palestinians Hamas does not define the occupation in the same way as you do.
January 6, 2008 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
leftAhead.
This is bullshit rhetoric. To whatever extent the national components of Jewish national identity are rooted in ancient or medieval religious traditions is by now strictly beside the point. What exactly disqualifies the Jewish people from national self-determination anyway, except for the medievalistic Christian notion that Jews can never be anything more than a religious community?
January 6, 2008 8:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
If the blacks recognize the right of the white state to exist as a white state and relinquish any hopes of returning to the white state, then the white state will let a black state exist.
January 5, 2008 4:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tell you where you are going wrong? How about at the beginning. Since you are intellectually and morally incapable of even recognizing the brutality of gun Zionism and the murderous nature of its 40+ year occupation, engaging you is about as fruitful as trying to teach physics to an amoeba. I only engage sensient beings.
January 5, 2008 7:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I keep wondering why you insist on focusing solely on Gaza, when I've pointed out numerous other examples of injustice going on in the Middle East -- with a far higher body count. This leads me to conclude your position has nothing to do with actually seeking real justice and everything to do with the overt support of fascisim, totalitarianism, torture, brutality, and gross injustice against Muslims -- as long as their oppressor is not Israeli? Maybe you can clarify your position.
January 5, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is the use in clarifying any position if it draws idiotic responses like this: "This leads me to conclude your position has nothing to do with actually seeking real justice and everything to do with the overt support of fascisim, totalitarianism, torture, brutality, and gross injustice against Muslims -- as long as their oppressor is not Israeli?"
Your "conclusion" speaks for itself. BTW, stop consuming my oxygen.
January 5, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
when we hear you publicly condemn the Muslim perpetrators of these gross violation of Muslim human rights, then I might, might decide you're fair-minded and seeking real justice in the Middle East for every citizen there.
January 5, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The trip of Bush is no more of an "idea" than Annapolis meeting was. It is a gesture without an idea, hence, an empty gesture.
syvanen is somewhat missing the mark. I do not think that even the vaunted "Israeli lobby" can mobilize the Congress to make a lopsided resolution supporting the expansion of settlements etc. The reason that Bush Administration is not making any real steps is that they do not want to -- "they" probably means Cheney, who is a Czar and Rasputin folded into one person. If Cheney had a heart, and Bush had a brain, and Rice had courage...
January 4, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Cheney had a heart, and Bush had a brain, and Rice had courage...
They might be Democrats ;)
January 4, 2008 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
it is not a tale....not a legend.....
to be a free people, in our own land.
the land of Israel, Jerusalem.
But it is a legend, MJ, to think that these people would suddenly love the United States if Israel suddenly dissolved, its inhabitants simply walking into the sea.
Further, the Pakistani girl you quote speaks not of Israel and the "Palestinians", but "what is going on in Gaza". I don't like what is happening in Gaza, either. But some news for that girl and for you, MJ:
Israel has departed from Gaza, and wishes only that it not be used as a staging area for bombing Israel.
A thought experiment for you, MJ:
If Israel were suddenly to dissolve, and all Jews magically disappear from the middle east, would the Sunnis suddenly lay down with the Shiites? Would Syria suddenly stop assasinating Lebanese politicians? Would the Taliban suddenly stop fighting with the war lords? Would the Bhutto Pakistanis suddenly stop fighting with the Musharraf Pakistanis? For that matter, would Pakistan make peace with India?
And what about the Kurds?
Be honest, MJ: is Israel REALLY the source of the hatred of the United States, really the cause of all of those problems in Moslem lands?
For a bonus, MJ: what would happen to Christian Arabs living in Jerusalem and Bethlehem and Nazareth and so forth if Israel were no longer around?
January 4, 2008 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's add the deaths of thousands of innocents in Egypt, Iraq, Indonesia, Thailand, the Phillipines, Somalia, and the Sudan to the question. How much safer would these innocent non-Muslims be in these countries, if Israel did not exist?
i wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer, bd. MJ forms his ideas in a vacum that does not take into account anything that goes on outside the West Bank and Gaza. The wicked acts of inhuman cruelty that take place outside Gaza are transformed into a totally legitimate struggle for freedom inside Gaza's borders, completely ignoring the fact that the perpetrators of these acts are fighting for fascism not freedom. There are no Thomas Jeffersons in Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah.
January 4, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a test: Who has killed more Muslims in the last 10 years? The United States and Israel or the Islamists? It's not even close.
I knew the Iraq War was the product of evil when the US military announced they weren't going to count civilian dead....so that they later deny the heaps of innocent civilians killed in so-called "precision" strikes. What a low moment in American history.
January 5, 2008 7:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's not look at just the last 10 years. Let's look a little further back. The vast majority (more than 99%) of Muslims have been killed in the last 50 years have been killed by fellow Muslims. That includes Iraq. Muslims have killed far, far more Muslims than Americans have.
Just a refresher for you:
(1) Iran-Iraq war----brother Muslims, mostly Shi'ites killing each other. Certainly hundreds of thousands of dead on both sides.
(2) Algerian civil war-100,000 dead. All Muslims.
(3) Lebanon civil war included intra Muslim-killing involving thousands of dead.
(4) Pakistan--ongoing turmoil, Shi'ite-Sunni violence
(5) Syrian repression of Hama-I heard numbers up to 20,000 dead.
(6) Jordan-Palestinian war in 1970. Thousands of dead, mostly Palestinians.
(7) Egypt involvement in Yemeni civil war, 1966-7. Egypt used poison gas. Thousands of dead.
Please don't tell me that the US is responsible for the sectarian killing in Iraq. Although the war was bungled, the energy for the killing comes from the Muslims themselves. If someone were to distribute weaons in your neighborhood to you and your neighbors, I don't think you would all start killing each other. This is like those who claim the US was responsible for the genocide in Cambodia. Cambodians were responsible for it, even if the US carried out a foolish policy there prior to the Khmer Rouge's takeover.
January 5, 2008 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL at this first: "This is like those who claim the US was responsible for the genocide in Cambodia. Cambodians were responsible for it, even if the US carried out a foolish policy there prior to the Khmer Rouge's takeover."
I have never advanced this thesis. I guess to show how silly your selective numbers are, can you imagine how many MILLIONS of Christians have murdered each other in the last 100 years? It makes the Muslims look positively lazy in comparison.
But you know, the civilized people never talk about that....Nobody ever extrapolates our violence as a "trait" of Christianity and the West.
Finally, I will tell you the US is responsible for the sectarian killings in Iraq. When you collapse a country's institutions, you are responsible for the chaos and murder that follows.
January 5, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
we've dug up the bodies of 400,000 mostly Shiites and Kurds in mass graves in Iraq -- so far -- all killed by Saddam's regime. This is a man who delighted in watching videos of his enemies being tortured. Al Qaeda has killed more Muslims in Iraq than have died in the past 10 years on the West Bank and Gaza. Are you aware of this, myth? Again, I ask the question -- why do you refuse to look at the reality of the Middle East and the gross violation of human rights under which over 200 million Arabs suffer?
January 5, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
It helps if you actually read my posts before you tap out your response. You, of course, ignored the fact that you cannot count the number of civilians murdered in Iraq by the US since we refused to count them.
January 5, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
it is not a tale....not a legend.....
what about the myth; 'Land without People, for a People without a Land?'
For a bonus, MJ: what would happen to Christian Arabs living in Jerusalem and Bethlehem and Nazareth and so forth if Israel were no longer around?
Well, historically speaking, Sal al Din spared all of the non-Muslims, both Christians and Jews when he captured Jerusalem--unlike his Christian counterparts, who slaughtered everybody in the city.
Sorry, but your 'thought experiment' just shows how limited and one-way your thinking is; please spare us the 'worldwide Islamic threat' and 'untermenschen' arguments, as we've heard them ad absurdium here.
January 4, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Was it a "thought experiment" or just the usual misdirection dodge? Applying the "logic" thus advanced, if any Arab or any Muslim injures any other Arab or Muslim, we have no right to criticize Zionism.
January 5, 2008 6:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Was it a "thought experiment" or just the usual misdirection dodge? Applying the "logic" thus advanced, if any Arab or any Muslim injures any other Arab or Muslim, we have no right to criticize Zionism.
January 5, 2008 6:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
"if any Arab or any Muslim injures any other Arab or Muslim, we have no right to criticize Zionism"
That's about the size of it -- unless you're willing to be equally as vehement about the Arab injustice. You've got no credibility otherwise.
January 5, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
It takes a singular individual to adopt the lowest argument without embarassment. Well done, sir. Well done.
January 5, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
"If Israel were suddenly to dissolve, and all Jews magically disappear from the middle east, would the Sunnis suddenly lay down with the Shiites? Would Syria suddenly stop assasinating Lebanese politicians? Would the Taliban suddenly stop fighting with the war lords? Would the Bhutto Pakistanis suddenly stop fighting with the Musharraf Pakistanis? For that matter, would Pakistan make peace with India?
And what about the Kurds?
"Be honest, MJ: is Israel REALLY the source of the hatred of the United States, really the cause of all of those problems in Moslem lands?"
NO. and MJ did not say it was. He said that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (yes, it is still occupied as the IDF has it fully blockaded) is the one issue that all Arabs and Muslims are in agreement about. Like it or not. Shiites and sunnis, Saudis and Iranians, etc, all hate the occupation and hate America for supporting it.
January 4, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is interesting -- there is a continuing controversy as to whether Bush is a complete incompetent or whether he is a malignant manipulator whose administration does precisely what he wishes. You seem to lean to the latter.
What I want to know is whose eyes will Bush end up gazing into?
It is probably worth noting that Don Rumsfeld (whose highschool nickname -- appropriately was snake) the guy at the center of this cluster of neocons is Presbyterian. I shudder to think what influence would be attributed to a different religious group if Israel had oil.
January 4, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I want to know is whose eyes will Bush end up gazing into?
A: the reptilian gaze of Richard Bruce Cheney.
My 'romantic' answer would have been Condi, because she is Bush's platonic love. However, it was her initiative that sent Bhutto back to Pakistan, and clearly that was an 'unfunded mandate' by the Bush admin, with predictable results.
fwiw, while the neocons have been the natural focus of our attention, they were just one element among many opportunists who banded together in this cockup. Rummy's 'in' was that he was an old Nixon crony of Cheney's.
January 4, 2008 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
FWIW: Cheney is a Methodist and Nixon was a Quaker.
January 5, 2008 5:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Recognizing Israel's right to exist, respecting a national border with Israel, realizing you're not going to get a right of 1 million Palestinians to return to Israel."
I for one do NOT "recognize Israel's right to exist", at least as a jewish state. Perhaps as a secular state with an integrated government. We all know that the real reason for all the pro-Israel mania is to try and make Israel a "legal" state, to erase the crimes. I say NO. The crimes (including the infiltration of the U.S.) must be paid for and set right. Zionism as a political movement must not have power and must not be legitimized.
January 4, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said. Maybe nexrt we should argue that Blacks and Hispanic must recognize that America "has a right to exist" as a white Christian nation. It's amazing that ordinarily intelligent people keep advancing this racist drivel. In the modern world, real democracies are legitimate if they recognize the equality of all their citizens, not just of one religious/ethnic/nationalist group.
January 5, 2008 6:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
exactly, myth, and you can't point to a single nation in the Middle East that recognizes the equality of their citizens and protects these rights under the Constitution. Israel's not close to this either, but they're a lot farther along than Syria (run by a minority sect), Iran (run by a 51% majority Persian sect), Saudi Arabia (too racist and radical to know where to start), Lebanon ( completely fractured) etc.... Israel exists in a very troubled part of the world and one with a lot of inequality, racism, and intolerance. The problems should be dealt with in a regional context -- not singling out one nation's short-comings while ignoring all the others.
January 5, 2008 6:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another "tu quoque" argument? Is that all you've got?
Now pick up your ball and go home....
January 5, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
no, i've got a lot more, but i'm still waiting for you to give me the name of a democratic nation in the Middle East that conforms to your own ideal.
So far I get nothing from you but insults which is always the position of last resort -- when you've got no real substantive argument to back up your position.
Anything less than a legitimate answer to my question is tantamount to admitting you've got nothing useful to offer to this debate.
January 5, 2008 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
The borders of just about every nation surrounding Israel are just as young, John, and a lot of atrocities have been committed to maintain them. Let's not forget Hafez Al Assad's massacre of 8,000 citizens of Hamma, when they rose up against the Syrian regime. Iran has declared themselves to be an Islamic nation and one that has committed many atrocities as well, most of them against their own citizens. Are you saying that these countries as well are illegitmate and you refuse to recognize them?
January 5, 2008 6:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Pakistanis couldn't care less about the Palestinians, just like their Arab brothers don't care about them. What enrages them is that a "dhimmi" people, the Jews, have managed to exercise their right to national self-determination in what the Muslim's consider the "Dar El-Islam", the realm of Islam, which they view as stretching from the Atlantic to Southeast Asia. They oppose any minority groups having any rights in that area.
If the Pakistanis and the rest of the Arab world cared about the Palestinians and their other brother Muslims, they would have demanded that the battle in the refugee camp in Northern Lebabanon be stopped, and they would have protested the Algerian civil war, and the Lebanese Civil War and the Iran-Iraq war. If they cared about the "suffering of the Gazans" they would advise them to stop lobbing rockets into Israel.
Look at the Shiite-Sunni slaughter going on in their own country, plus other violence in the North-West Frontier region plus Kashmir. Ever hear of the Kentucky Fried Chicken Massacre in Pakistan? It was a couple of years ago. A suicide bomber, out of love for him fellow Muslims went into a Shi'ite mosque and blew it up, killing dozens. The local Shi'ites went on a rampage, saw a KFC franchise, all of whose workers and owners were brother Pakistani Muslims, and realizing that it was an American company, butchered all the people in there. I think the Pakistanis have a lot of work to do in their own country.
January 5, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
So Muslims in Pakistan don't care about Muslims in Palestine but Jews in Great Neck care about Jews in Israel and Australia.
What is it about those Muslims? They don't care about their children. They don't care about each other?
Why can't they be like us??????
January 5, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
that's a good question, MJ. Do you have an answer? Why can't Muslims stop blowing up anyone who disagrees with them, regardless of race, religion, or nationality?
January 5, 2008 9:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a good thread, because it really shows you and your fellow traveler's straight up anti-Muslim bias. (Where is the Muslim Abe Foxman?) All of these conflicts mentioned are happening for different reasons, which have more to do with the specific country's history and politics, than any global condition--in other words, the Pakistan situation is happening because of the history and conditions in that country, not because of your dirty insinuation that Muslims are somehow genetically programmed to violence.
According to your weak analogy, one could say that Christians are terribly bloodthirsty, because they killed millions of people in WWII.
Sorry, but I reject your 'Muslim untermenschen' argument, and I think you do a terrible harm to your own people, who have themselves historically fought against such treatment.
January 5, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
intolerance is intolerance. It works the same way in Afghanistan, Algeria, Pakistan, Thailand, and Iraq. Al Qaeda is active in all these countries and perpetrating their violent acts with a universal goal in mind. The victims are, in almost every case, poor, innocent, and Muslim. It's not white Swiss farmers blowing themselves up in all these countries; it's radical Muslims. You can choose to ignore or explain away this reality -- I don't. There is a problem in the Islamic world that needs to be dealt with, and making excuses is not going to resolve anything.
January 5, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ridiculous analogy. No one says "Muslims are genetically inferior". Islam is a religion, an ideology, not a race. It is this IDEOLOGY that is the problem. Pakistan and India were born from the same mother, as I pointed out above. They were both under British colonialism for 300 years. You explain to me why they turned out so different.
January 5, 2008 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
So LeftAhead if during the run up to WWII I recognized that the Nazis were killing people this would be racial discrimination against the Germans?
Please explain to me why the Jews were able to rehabilitate their refugees after WWII without demanding a right of return to Europe and wealthy Moslem Arab oil states are content to leave their brethern in the camps?
Calling us names does nothing to change the facts that their fellow Moslems have let the Palestinians suffer in totally unnecessary ways.
The argument has been advanced that if the Moslem world relieved the Palestinians of their suffering this would relieve Israel of any moral guilt it might be due for its creation?
Does anyone believe that the success of Israel relieves Germany of guilt for the Nazi atrocities?
January 6, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please explain to me why the Jews were able to rehabilitate their refugees after WWII without demanding a right of return to Europe and wealthy Moslem Arab oil states are content to leave their brethern in the camps?
No doubt it's because the Jews are the superior people, right?
And if that's not what you're claiming, what in hell are you claiming?
January 7, 2008 3:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Same reason Christians, Hindus and Jews do it, I guess.
January 5, 2008 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You got me, mj.
I had forgotten about all of those Christian, Hindu and Jewish suicide bombers.
January 5, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You shouldn't. They get more bang for the buck. They leave 'suicide' out and just bomb, bomb, and bomb some more until they're stopped.
January 5, 2008 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny how the only killing that matters to some people is by suicide bombs. Using that standard, the holocaust gets a pass. The killers did not die in the process of killing.
January 5, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pity.
CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com
January 5, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. They should use airstrikes like the civilized people.
January 5, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
So because we are uncivilized they have a right to be uncivilized to?
The point is that the Moslems seem to only care about Moslem deaths caused by Jews of the West but not by Moslem on Moslem violence which causes far more deaths.
So the sense is that they care far more about their prejudice against Jews than for the welfare of their own people.
January 6, 2008 10:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am surprised that I have to point out the following facts to you, but I apparently have to do so....
You are quite right, 60 years ago "civilized Europe" was not in a position to go preaching to other people about morality. But what did they do? They confronted their ugly history head on, grappled with the moral issues and draw conclusions. We today now have the borderless EU covering most of the continent, including countries that used to be bitter enemies for generations now living together in harmony. Religious and ethnic minorities are generally respected. The Western Churches, both Protestant and Catholic have made major efforts to look at their history of support for dictatorial regimes and endemic antisemitism and to eradicate those aspects of their traditions that allowed those attitudes to exist (I am saying this as an Orthodox Jew).
Thus, today, if G-d forbid, someone were to hijack a plane and crash it into the the big skyscraper in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (which is taller than the WTC was), you and I would be horrified along with virtually everyone else in the Western World. We wouldn't say "the Muslims did it to themselves in order to make Western Christians and Jews look bad" and no one would look on the Osama Bin-Laden-like character who was behind it, whether he be Christian, Jew, Hindu or whatever, as being a hero, regardless of whatever cause he claimed to be championing. Yet today, in the Arab/Muslim world, Bin Laden is viewed by MOST Muslims as a great hero, all sorts of excuses are made for the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks (e.g. "the Mossad organized it in order to make Muslims look bad", etc). Public opinion polls show this. Street celebrations were held all over the Muslim world when it happened. (Orwellian double think-at one and the same time, many Muslims believe the myth about the Mossad, yet are happy it happened).
In pre-Independence India, Gandhi (whom you may recall I am no fan of), Nehru and the Indian National Congress didn't support Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The opposed both British Colonialism AND Fascism at the same time. Compare how post-Independence India and Pakistan have fared. Both were under British Colonialism for 300 years. India has remained, except for one period in the 1970's a democratic, constitutionalist state. Pakistan is wracked by coups, assassinations and fratricidal (intra-Muslim) violence. They were born together from the same mother. You explain the difference.
If we in the West were to hear clear, loud denunciations of the violence and extremism prevalent in the Arab/Muslim world, then we in the West could say that they are attempting to uproot their moral pathologies just as the West did after World War II, but this is NOT happening, except for some brave individuals. If we saw large demonstrations against the Iran/Iraq war or against the fratricidal slaughter in Algeria or Iraq, then I would say you may be right, but this is NOT happening. I see indifference. If I saw demonstrations that said "Americans out of Iraq, Terrorists out of Iraq" or "Israel out of Palestinian territories while at the same time Palestinian resistance must be non-violent", then I would think differntly, but we don't.
Your moral equivalence is a dead-end street.
January 5, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's funny how someone who refers to himself as "Bar Kochba" (leader of a Jewish revolt against the Romans, for those unaware of the history) insists that Palestinian resistance must be non-violent. I imagine this Bar Kochba also deplores the Stern Gang and Irgun and calls himself Bar Kochba only to humiliate himself as a way of atoning for past Jewish violence.
January 6, 2008 5:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whether or not bar_kochba deplores the violence of the Stern Gang is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the Stern Gang and its ilk represented a small fraction of the spectrum of Jewish opinion at the time of Israel's founding. Furthermore, the mainstream Zionists moved to shut down the Irgun as Ben Gurion believed, correctly, that there had to be one source of authority in the new state, not competing armed gangs. Compare that with Arafat and his multiple overlapping security forces and inability and/or unwillingness to confront the rejctionists of Hamas and Islamic Jihad directly.
January 6, 2008 7:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whether or not bar_kochba deplores the violence of the Stern Gang is irrelevant.
Then you'd certainly agree that when someone deplores Israeli violence it's irrelevant whether that person also deplores Muslim violence? Or is there a double standard about double standards?
January 6, 2008 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice try, but it's not the same. In order for your equivalence to hold, you'd have to make the case that violence plays the same role in both the Palestinian and Israeli sides of the conflict. It doesn't. Violence was at the very core of the way the Arabs have dealt with Jewish national aspirations. There has never been a strong and popular voice for accomodation and harmony with Israel in the Arab world. Even in those states that are at "peace" with Israel, such as Egypt and Jordan, the hatred of Israel is intense and searing.
By contrast, while needless violence is certainly perpetrated by Israelis, it is not core to who Israelis are and what they want. Thus while there is nothing wrong with people saying that Israel should do more to prevent violence, there is plenty wrong with condemning Israeli and Palestinian violence in the same breath. One is peripheral and one is central.
January 6, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Israelis and Palestinians are--and have through the history of the conflict--been in vastly different situations. Comparing the relative degree of "morality" of the two people's differing responses to different situations seems rather pointless. Morality is too vague a concept which can't be quantified in any objective way. Because of this, I would never argue either for or against the "moral equivalence" of the actions of any two groups. The whole concept of moral equivalence or inequivalence is meaningless, given the impossibility of objectively measuring degrees of morality, especially when the contexts in which different actions are taken are immensely varied and complex and never completely understood.
What I do know is that violent resistance is common throughout history and that violence generally increases in societies undergoing significant political or economic transitions. Furthermore, violent actions in these times of transition are usually vehemently condemned by those who oppose the objectives of the perpetrators and often idealized as heroic by those who support those same objectives. In my mind, Israelis and Arabs are no different from each other or from any other people in this. It also strikes me that given their situation (living under occupation without significant political rights for over sixty years), the amount of violence among Palestinians (and the amount of violence directed at Israelis by Palestinians) is quite modest. Looking more broadly at the Muslim world, I certainly agree that there is significant violence within it--but not necessarily more than we observe in other areas in similar situations in recent history, including many areas of Africa, Latin America, and South Asia--or even Europe in the first half of the twentieth century. On the other hand, Israeli violence also strikes me as not significantly greater or less than the violence of other nations in similar situations. So making judgments about the morality of either group (or any group) seems to be an exercise in futility--unless of course, one's goal is to justify the actions of one group or the other.
One other point. I'm not sure one can conclude that violence is completely "peripheral" in a society so heavily militarized as Israeli society. As I said before, Israelis are in a vastly different situation than Palestinians. They no longer have a need to "terrorize" their enemies in the way that the Stern Gang did (or the way that some Palestinians terrorize Israelis). Like other established countries they've institutionalized violence in an organized military (one which regularly conducts assassinations among other things). The way violence is conducted is different, but I'm not sure the degree of violence is necessarily less or that violence is somehow less central to Israeli society than to Palestinian. Both groups use violence to accomplish ends when violence is useful to them--it's just that the Israelis have, like other established nations, brought the apparatus of violence under the control of the state, while the Palestinians (like other stateless groups) have a less regulated approach to violent action.
January 6, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Bar Kochba rebellion broke out when the Romans attempted to suppress Jewish religious life and when it was announced that they intended to build a pagan temple in the location of the previously-destroyed Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews would not have revolted against Roman rule had the Romans respected Jewish communal and religious autonomy. The same applies to the first rebellion approximately 70 years earlier.
The Romans were an imperialist conqueror. They had no business being in Judea. The Jews were no threat to them.
January 6, 2008 7:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
As per usual, this thread has degenerated into the from the beginnings of History, Muslims/Arabs are responsible for killing more of their own than the IDF so every inhuman, illegal act by Israel is excusable arguments. Blah blah blah. This illogical nonsense is even advanced to American Jewish students recruited to spread the word on American college campuses by none other than Foriegn Minister Tzipi Livni.
The Israeli hasbara version of "don't you DARE believe your lying eyes when it comes to Israel" is a REAL winner.
Back to the subject of Bush's upcoming visit to Israel. Because of the timing (NH primary), I would expect less attention by the American media than usual. Not that it matters; their coverage of the region is already abysmally ignorant, shallow and biased.
The more I watch the speculation and preparations, the more I find the whole business resembling a spectacular farce. Not only is the likelyhood of anything substantial happening on the so-called "Peace" front zip, the primary object of Bushie efforts, isolating Iran, is also destined to fail. "Moderate" Egypt and the Saudis are drifting away from the US/Israeli Abject Fear of the Shiite Caliphate Coalition and cutting deals with Iran. The Hashemite Dumpling King of Jordan is still working the refs and has been rewarded with a nice bolus of US taxpayer dollars AKA "Foreign Aid".
I wonder if the Israelis will be able to keep Bush shielded from the protesters/supplicants as is usual? The Free Pollard activists are all fired up and ready to go with all sorts of campaigns to get his attention. Paris Square in Jerusalem is being renamed "Free Jonathan Pollard Square" in his honor. Other campaigns are not so flattering. There are billboards/signs/ads allover the damn place featuring Haniyeh, Nasrallah and Bush with the names of their "political prisoners" (Shalit, Goldwasser & Regev and Jonathan Pollard listed below their images. Another settlements forever! campaign exhorts Bush to "READ YOUR BIBLE".
The Pollard Pod People are a worry despite their inept attempts to influence. A group of them managed to breech Condi's security and make it to the floor of her hotel suite during a recent visit.
Poor Israel. Bush will arrive will his contingent of 800 and an American aircraft carrier is already docked at Haifa.
Offered with the usual caveat, this Debkafile piece is emblematic of the whole business:
"DEBKAfile Exclusive: Olmert and Jordan’s King discuss dissuading Abbas from stepping down"
January 4, 2008, 9:56 PM (GMT+02:00)
Preparing for Bush visit
"Have something in writing drawn up with Abbas ready to show Bush – even if it means nothing. That in a word was the advice Jordan’s King Abdullah II gave Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert when they met in Aqaba Thursday, Jan. 3. Olmert offered to go along with the advice, but said he was worried about the Palestinian leader. Last week, Abbas confided to Abdullah and Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak that he is very ill and fed up and sorely tempted to retire to his villa in Qatar.
DEBKAfile’s sources report that, while no progress has so far been achieved, the prime minister is anxious to keep Abbas on the post-Annapolis peace track up until the US president’s visit on Jan. 8. As an inducement, he gave in to his personal request to allow four hard-line Palestinian cronies to enter the West Bank, a request which had been denied by three former Israeli prime ministers, Barak, Natanyahu and Sharon."
snip]
"Olmert’s purpose in allowing Abbas’ mates to enter Ramallah is to strengthen the PA Chairman’s immediate circle and bolster his declining authority. Neither attaches much importance to the impending US president’s visit, which they see as a farewell tour. They expect him to hoist the Palestinian flag in Ramallah and Jericho for the sake being recorded in history as the first American president to visit to the Palestinian Authority. After he leaves, the situation will revert to its normal stalemate."
http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=4909
January 5, 2008 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't see any real hope or interest by the Bush administration in achieving any kind of peace in the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I seriously don't see it.
Once in a while Bush pays lip service, but its never more than that. There's no expectation of success, no anticipation of victory.
For Israel's part, they see no reason to cater. Bush is a lame duck, his term is in its final year, he's lost control of congress, he's irrelevant to the upcoming election. They can just wait him out.
As for the Palestinians, why should they put an iota's worth of credibility towards anything Bush has to say. Seriously. What does he bring to the table that would earn their respect?
January 5, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, this old canard. Yes what has been lacking all these decades is that the American president just wasn't trying hard enough.
I suppose lack of will also explains why Bill Clinton failed to bring peace to the Middle East? Riiiight.
Can we please be a bit more realistic and say that will is a necessary but not sufficient element in the mix of things needed to bring change to the Middle East? Isn't that stunningly obvious by now?
January 6, 2008 8:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bradthedad said:
"I suppose lack of will also explains why Bill Clinton failed to bring peace to the Middle East? Riiiight."
Yes, exactly. He didn't have the will or the power to overcome AIPAC and the Israel Lobby.
January 6, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink