Further Thoughts from Stevenson

Some very searching, interesting comments seem to have surfaced. I don’t think we “conflate” the issue of who advanced the loss of political will and that of whether we could have won, or avoided losing, the Vietnam War.

The idea we are trying to get across is that irrespective of whether staving off defeat was in fact possible, in staying too long we shrunk the range of possible options for trying to do so by amplifying the futility of the war as it had been conducted, and thus lending ever more credence to those who said enough is enough. Had we changed policies earlier in one way or the other – for instance, by moving towards negotiation more earnestly, when we had stronger military traction on the ground to leverage and greater political support at home to back it up – a more agreeable ultimate result would have been more likely.

By contrast, the Paris Peace Accords reflect the naked capitulation that the Nixon administration felt compelled to accept. Further, I would disagree that the United States’ obligations under the Paris Peace Accords “miss the point.” It is true that the United States stopped deploying troops to Vietnam in 1972, and that most were gone by 1973. But Nixon partially offset this loss of ground combat power by maintaining and escalating the air war. The Paris agreement had the effect of binding the United States to cease all military activity in Vietnam in an ostensibly legal way, such that the world and – more importantly – the American public would insist that Washington abide by it. Despite all of the equipment the Americans had bestowed upon ARVN, its leaders were largely resigned and uninspired by the 1970s. They needed U.S. power in some form to survive. That may be what revisionist conservatives say factually in accusing liberals and other doves of a “loss of political will” – a loaded term usually employed speciously to mean a refusal to do what declarant thinks should have been done. Our take is that ill-advised, blinkered American policies promoted both a cynical and enervated South Vietnamese political and military leadership and a loss of domestic political support in the United States that elected leaders were eventually unable to ignore – “will” having very little to do with it.

We are agnostic as to whether the South Vietnamese government could have been reformed had the U.S. tried harder, but the fact remains that it did not try too hard and consequently diminished the probability that the South Vietnamese people would mobilize strongly against Hanoi. We also take no position one way or the other on whether residual American military support could have forced a durable military stalemate. Our stance is rather that bloody-minded U.S. policies that focused narrowly on military success in the end forestalled the political opportunity to provide such support, or to accomplish other beneficial regional ends such as limiting the Khmer Rouge’s trajectory.

Thus, we explicitly acknowledge that Tet had spent the Vietcong in 1968 and that counterinsurgency was starting to work by the early Seventies. But our core contention is that these realities – salutary though they may have been in a vacuum – were beside the point precisely because the American public could no longer credit claims along the lines that there was light at the end of the tunnel no matter how meritorious they might actually have been. For the very reason that military commanders are (rightly) in the business of zealously harnessing honor and duty in the pursuit of their enemies, it was up to the United States’ civilian leadership to step back and make a more dispassionate cost-benefit assessment. This it failed to do in Vietnam. That may be the one point of convergence between us and conservative revisionists like Arthur Herman, but for him that failure cuts the other way. Herman argues in his blunderbuss article “Who Owns the Vietnam War?” in the December 2007 issue of Commentary (Joan Baez does not escape his wrath) that the Johnson administration hindered progress in Vietnam by subjectively focusing on American failures rather than successes and thus behaving timidly and indecisively.

From that position, it’s easy to see where Herman would stand on how to proceed in Iraq. We, on the other hand, believe that the American leadership seems to be following the same pattern of unduly favoring military measures in Iraq over more diplomatic ones that leave better prospects for salvaging U.S. leverage in the region and controlling Islamist terrorism. CENTCOM may point to snapshots of military success resulting from the surge. But if – as is probable – it transpires that that those gains can’t be sustained without maintaining or increasing U.S. military involvement in Iraq, the public will lose all faith and force a more radical and ultimately disempowering drawdown than it would if Washington were to adopt a more moderate, more hedged, and more diplomatically oriented course now.


Comments (17)

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I think that it is pretty obvious that the Vietnam war could have or should have been won, or at least stalemated in a manner satisfactory to the United States.

As Mr. Stevenson, CommonDreamer and others aptly show, all that was really required when you boil their arguments down to the essence is simply this for the North Vietnamese and Vietcong to cooperate by fighting the war and committing their strategic decisions in a manner to guarantee the victory of the United States.

The fault therefore lies with the NVA and Vietcong, who, with notable exceptions, displayed a consistent pattern of not conforming to American requirements for Victory, and who would have probably continued to nonconform.

So you see, it's the damned communists who are to blame.

What were they thinking? I don't know. But I think it's damned well time they took some responsibility for not playing the game the way they were supposed to. Perhaps a sternly worded note. We should extract a sincere promise that next time, they'll play properly.

Jesus H. Christ on a Crutch.

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=== But I think it's damned well time they took some responsibility for not playing the game the way they were supposed to. ===
All snark aside, it is breathtaking the way the US sweeps the history of the then-mapped "French Indochina" from 1940-1945 and 1943-1946 right out of the books and discussions. The Viet Minh did play the game by the rules wrt the US at that time, the OSS did provide a recommendation to the President/Sec of State, and the US did take the actions it took in 1946. But we aren't allowed to talk about that.
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sPh

While I certainly don't want to go through all of Vietnamese history, it is not irrelevant to point to some historical events before 1940, to help establish context. For example, the Trung Sisters, also called the "two Trung ladies", led a revolt against Chinese rule in the first century AD. Their attitude toward the Chinese is embedded in Vietnamese tradition, yet in what I consider the most damning policy memo the US wrote, ASD(ISA) McNaughton to McNamara, 20% of the argument to stay, and escalate, was based on the chance of Chinese intervention.

McNaughton was apparently one of the people that confused Vietnam with Korea, along with the initial MAAG military trainers that built a South Vietnamese Army to stand against a conventional North Korean-style invasion. Ironically, that would have been useful in 1975, but if they had been trained in counterinsurgency, the events in 1975 might not have happened.

Of course, if the OSS Patti Mission recommendations, and offers from Ho Chi Minh had been followed in 1946-7, there also might not have been a war. As with Iraq, the US underestimated nationalism and anticolonialism.

Shall I mention the 1955 election that happened, but in ways that would make the Chicago Machine blush, and the 1956 referendum that didn't happen?
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

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=== Of course, if the OSS Patti Mission recommendations, and offers from Ho Chi Minh had been followed in 1946-7, there also might not have been a war. ===
Well Howard, I was thinking about that but I wanted to keep my post succinct ;-). I don't claim to be an expert but it seems to me that when a people has fought for independence more-or-less continuously for 3000 years that they aren't going to give up easily when it is within their grasp.
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The other issue is what would have happened in Roosevelt had still been alive and in command at the time the decision was made as opposed to Truman.
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sPh

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You know, thinking back to North Vietnam's conduct... it's almost as if they intended for themselves to win the war, instead of the United States. It's almost as if their failure to conform to American requirements was... by design... like it was some sort of wacky plan of theirs.

But that's just crazy talk.

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Oh, and just for the record: There is no other rational response but mockery to this subject.

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I cannot believe that in 2007 people are still debating Vietnam as if it were a current political issue! Will the damn Baby Boomers please, please, please get over the damn 60s and start addressing the 21st century! In case they haven't noticed there are some rather pressing matters to attend to in the here and now.

No, it's not a current political issue -- but, I suppose, neither is the Constitution. If GWB is trashing the Constitution, I see no reason not to make observations about how his Administration is repeating historical mistakes.

I'd like the next President to have more of an idea of history than one could get from My Pet Goat. It tends to be useful in not making the same mistake again again again.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

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I feel I've gone through the looking glass again. Are we really going to debate if our moronic imperialistic move to replace the French imperialists in Vietnam could have been made into some sort of winning venture if we had a different strategy? Here's a different strategy - we should have let the Marxist nationalist anti-Chinese expansion Ho Chi Minh alone and saved millions of lives. No instead we support a puppet Diem who Nixon and Cardinal Spellman think is hot stuff, have Ike sabotage any chance to have an election in 1956, then we support a bunch of criminal drug dealers like Ky. Gee I wonder why that didn't work? Duh. Could we now have a rational discussion about something sensible such as impeaching and removing Bush and Cheney.

Tom,

You seem to be arguing a different point than I and others am discussing. No one, AFAIK, is suggesting seriously that a winning strategy existed for Vietnam; I certainly do not. Oh, had there been a Magsaysay rather than a Diem, things could have been very different -- but the conditions were such that a real leader was never produced.

In other threads, I have recounted some of Ho's proposals to the OSS Patti mission, which the US should have adopted. Yes, it would have annoyed the French, but one of my international relations professors once defined diplomacy as the art of getting the French to be the ally of one's enemy. The reflexive anticommunism of the time could not cope with the idea of Ho also being a nationalist, as was Tito. Ho would, I believe, have been far more likely to have had an orderly succession after his death.

Among other reasons I am discussing the Vietnam example is that it demonstrably is something Cheney and Rumsfeld should have considered in their planning, while the front man was reading to God about his goat friend. I see some of these examples as being useful in an impeachment hearing.

I can point to any number of historical reasons why Rumsfeld's ideas about Iraq were fantasy. Demonstrations of incompetence are directly relevant to moving forward.

But, if you feel historical analysis is irrelevant to the present situation, no one is forcing you to participate. In like manner, there are other threads in which dealing with Bush and Cheney are the matter at hand.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

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Howard,I agree with you 100%.  It is Stevenson who seems to be off base to me.Tom

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Howard, there's a difference between historical analysis and the pressing emotional need to find a way to rewrite history even in a notional way.

One is an intellectual tool which can be used for assessing a current situation and making plans accordingly, the other is a regressive infantile response which denies the analysis and denies reality based behaviour in favour of a visceral but fraudulent gut level of satisfaction.

People who sit around and talk about how the Vietnam war might have been won are not fundamentally different from Holocaust deniers or Confederate apologists. Each invoke a sort of historical dishonesty whose goal is not so much to understand history, but to evade it.

The truth is that all we can really say about the Vietnam war is that it was lost. We can talk about how it was lost, identify and define the mistakes. And we can learn from those mistakes.

But we can't really argue that it could or should have been won. That arguement presupposes that the Vietnamese would have cooperated with our 'winning' strategy. That is, they would have done what we needed them to do for us to win. I'm skeptical, since they were never that cooperative before.

The argument usually breaks down into two categories. There are embittered ex-generals or vets who grump that if only the Vietnamese had cooperated with what the Americans were doing at the time, we would have won. Then there's revisionists who claim that if the Vietnamese had cooperated and we'd tried a great new plan, we would have won. Bunk in both cases.

In each case, however, the 'winning plan' deliberately ignores the real lessons of history. It ignores the mistakes, and therefore refuses to learn from those mistakes. By definition, if we are 'winning' in our revision of how history ought to have gone, the mistakes are irrelevant. They are no longer operative. At best, mildly curious trivialities.

And there you have Cheney's and Rumsfeld's mistake.

What they did was not a lapse. It was fundamental to this kind of thinking, because this kind of thinking is founded in denial and obliviousness.

It may be cruel of me to lump the 'We coulda/should won Vietnam crowd' in with the Holocaust Deniers and Confederate Apologists, but they truly deserve to be there. And this is because they share their key traits.

The kind of revisionism that tries to justify current behavior is clearly useless. Some academic revisionism, using alternative assumptions, may help understand a situation (e.g., did FDR set up Pearl Harbor), even if they prove false in the long run.

I am a great believer in any policymaker having a strong background of history, not to repeat it, but to learn from it. While it might be better known in Canada, given the Commonwealth status, I have found that when I mention the WWI actions on the Gallipoli Peninsula to most people, I get "What's that?"

Yet Gallipoli is relevant to the situation in Iraq, because it identifies the recognition, by top leaders that a campaign had failed and the forces needed to withdraw. Even the White House admits Iraq is not a war, but a campaign in the GWOT, although it takes drilling into documents to find that the world does not rotate around Iraq

At Gallipoli, Stopford and Hamilton, the operational commanders at Gallipoli, were shining exemplars of utter incompetence. It did not help that their key counterpart, he who was to become Kemal Ataturk, was a military genius. I have to ask myself whether the situation in Iraq or at Gallipoli became more clear. The overall Dardanelles campaign did put Churchill out of the Cabinet, although he came back in a memorable way. And yes, from a purely military standpoint, with aggressive commanders, a fair case can be made that both forcing the Dardanelles strait, and the Gallipoli landings, might have worked.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

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The kind of revisionism that tries to justify current behavior is clearly useless. Some academic revisionism, using alternative assumptions, may help understand a situation (e.g., did FDR set up Pearl Harbor), even if they prove false in the long run.

I think that you are referring to counterfactual analysis, which is a reasonable if occasionally dubious field of historical research.

One of my favourite bits of counterfactual analysis dealt with Railroads in America. The counterfactual proposition examined if, instead of building railroads, the United States had opted for continuing river and canal works. The analysis looked at the 18th and 19th century economies of the United States, the critical importance of waterbased transportation, the perfection or maturity of the technology of canals and locks, the degree of investment required, and the access of various market and supply centres to navigable waterways or feasible canal construction. It found that something like 97% of America's economic centres - farming communities, manufacturing, mining, forestry, cities, etc., were within three miles of navigable waterways or feasible canals. The difference to the American economy, if the US had opted this way would have turned out to be less than 1%.

Which then invokes an interesting question. Given that in the 19th century water traffic was an established and perfected technology, why was it shoved aside and social and political priority, economic priority given to a new upstart technology. Examining why and how this took place expands our understanding of social and political development.

In contrast, guys like Whazzisname at the head of this thread, and his dippy ilk are not engaged in any sort of scholarship at all.

Instead of asking: "What would the consequences have been if Giap/Nixon/Westmoreland/etc. did *this* instead of *that*?" and carefully extrapolating out the consequences of this based on assessment of all the data, in order to reach a justifiable and enlightening result.

What they do is is ask: "Hmmm, how could we jigger things around to get the result that we win this war?"

There's a difference between asking a question as to what might have happened, and then following it through; and seeking a predetermined result and working backwards to achieve satisfaction.

One is scholarship, the other is masturbation.

Now let me be perfectly fair here: Johnathan Stevenson has every right to masturbate in front of me.

But if he does, I have every right to whack his pee pee with a rolled up newspaper. And by god, I will.

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RogerGathman

It seems to me the lesson that should have been learned from Vietnam for Americans is: learn about the culture in which you plan to intervene. Stevenson is right about the range of possible options, but confines his comments to the post Tet atmosphere - in retrospect, the obvious preferable option would have been to let Saigon negotiate with the NLF in 1965. The nominal 'president' of Vietnam, then, wanted to, although of course D.C., with its colonialist mindset, quickly designed a coup to get rid of him. He was in favor of bringing the communists and nationalists - for the NLF was both - into the government. Eventually, such an arrangement would probably have negotiated a unification with North Vietnam - the division between the two countries occurred only to suit the U.S. If this had happened, some 100,000 dead and wounded Americans would have been spared, and a good 2 million Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians.

In Iraq, this has been learned a little bit. The U.S. surrendered in Anbar province to the forces they fought in Fallujah. That was an excellent move. If the U.S. would simply give up all its plans in Iraq, accept the situation as the Iraqis create it - which is probably the creation of a highly atomized state, at the moment, and a strong ally of Iran - and get the hell out, it would be the best solution for all concerned. It would be a terrible mistake if U.S. soldiers are still in Iraq at the end of 2009. Bush being in office until Jan. 2009, it is probable we will still have soldiers in to proxy up for our idiot president's vanity, but after that we should be pulling them all out. At the same time, though, if the U.S. has any sense, in order to shift our obsessive focus from the Middle East back to more necessary foreign policy matters - such as the ongoing crumbling of Mexico - we should certainly open up negotiations with Iran leading towards our recognition of that country's government. In this way, the pressure spots in the Middle East will start to subside. America will never have the power it had in the Middle East in the Cold War again - that's final. But we don't have to pour lives and money into a hole as a way of not accepting this reality.

~

All points made here are very reasonable. Although, in my very humble opinion there is one small item that has been overlooked and should be added.

Returning to the very first sentence:

It seems to me the lesson that should have been learned from Vietnam for Americans is: learn about the culture in which you plan to intervene.

Add: ...and do not preemptively intervene militarily.

~OGD~

Roger that.

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