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Author/Journalist Phil Weiss on The Jewish Community's Turn Toward Peace

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Phil Weiss is a terrific writer who, only recently, began dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A 49 year old Jewish Harvard graduate, Weiss is not a Zionist and never has been.

But he's a Jew and a proud one (in a non-chauvinist way). He cares about Israel and he cares about Palestine but, mostly, I think, he is cares that a several thousand year tradition of Jewish enlightenment and humanity not be replaced by the kind of ugly neocon chauvinism that has a strong hold in certain parts of the community.

I am a Zionist (more or less) and Phil is not (less and more) but we agree on the central issue that divides Israelis and Palestinians: sharing the land and establishing security and justice for both peoples.

I read him religiously (the only thing I do religiously other than lighting candles and saying kiddush on Friday nights) and, to be honest, we are part of a mutual admiration society. He is a brave and intelligent man.

Read his heartening report about Monday's Israel Policy Forum event (IPF is my employer), see it through his eyes, and know that it's getting better all the time.

ALSO READ THIS SICKENING REPORT FROM SATURDAY'S NEW YORK TIMES ON WHAT PALESTINIANS ENDURE AT THE HANDS OF THE SETTLERS.  


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(1) Efraim Sneh was never Defense Minister, he was DEPUTY Defense Minister.
(2) Haim Ramon is a convicted sex offender (if that is what forcing a kiss on an unwilling woman can be considered). That is very liberal of IPF and particularly the women present to overlook that, but I guess the IPF can overlook things like that in people who have the "correct" political views.
(3) I don't know if Weiss's report is accurate, but it sounds like the usual cliches that we hear in these type of gatherings. I heard Efraim Sneh speak years ago for an hour and the whole thing was just the usual slogans and tripe (don't worry, most right-wing politicians do the same thing), so I presume he did the same thing here. I doubt any people in the audience learned anything they didn't know from before by reading the newspapers.
(4) What I want to know is this: What exactly did the PLO representative say?
How exactly does he see the "right of return" controversly being worked out? I am willing to bet he didn't say anything specific except to say that "there has to be an agreed-upon solution acceptable to both sides" which, of course, doesn't mean anything. I imagine that all he did was talk about how much he and the Palestinans "want peace" and then he let's the audience's imagination extrapolate their idea of peace to what he means when he uses the same word, which is NOT the case.
This PLO guy views audiences like this as groups that Lenin called "useful idiots", well-meaning people who can have the wool pulled over their eyes in order to exploit their good intentions for their own purposes. He can talk all night about how much he wants "peace" but if, back home, in their government-controlled media they are still dehumanizing Jews, praising suicide bombers, encouraging people to read "Mein Kampf" and the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" then he simply a hypcrite, and if the audience doesnt' realize it, then they are sadly out of touch with reality.
(It is possible that someone in the audience would ask him about this, and his answer would be "we have a free press and the gov't can't control what is publicized", which of course would be a lie.

I am a Zionist (more or less) and Phil is not (less and more) but we agree....
Is there anything you disagree about?
not be replaced by the kind of ugly neocon chauvinism that has a strong hold in certain parts of the community.
Are you sayng that you represent "Jewish enlightenment and humanity " when you show your hate for anybody you disagree with?
As Ali Abunimah, author of One Country, has argued, the great goal that is proffered in these visions, of partition on a religious basis, isn’t that different from the South African dream, of an Afrikaans state and a black state
Do you agree with Phil Weiss and Ali Abunimah? Is this is an official position of IPF? Does Haim Ramon, the vice prime minister of Israel agree with with Phil Weiss and Ali Abunimah?
There was also the strong sense that without the American Jewish community allowing Washington to become more independent, this moment will be lost. Israelis and the Palestinians cannot do this on their own, they require muscling intervention.
Did Haim Ramon express such sense or it's what MJ and Phil Weiss always smell?
Camp David when Clinton allowed a bad offer to be called equitable
MJ, Do you agree with Phil Weiss? I remember that you seems to suggested that Clinton offer was good. Did you change your position? Is this now official IPF position that Clinto plan was bad and it was bad because of Jewish Lobby?
and a road runs from Damascus to Jerusalem that all can drive on, idealists like myself will talk about a federated solution,
What federated solution he has in mind? Is he talking about Syria, Palestinian state, Israel, Lebanon and Jordan? Something like EU? Or he just want to create a state where Jews will be again minority? It seems that Phil Weiss can't stand idea of Jewish majority state. For him last 2000 years of Jewish history of suffering persecutions, pogroms and Holocost is "several thousand year tradition of Jewish enlightenment and humanity" and he wants Jews in general and Israelis specifically to go back to such "enlightenment" For some strange reasons Israelis are not looking forward to such "enlightenment". Now I understand why he doesn't like the Clinton plan. For people like Phil Weiss and MJ, any solution that preserves majority Jewish state that will able to protect itself is unfair.Only a weak state that will be a first step in "a federated solution" is acceptable to them. This is why MJ never discuss security issues.

But, davai, he's *for* the two-state solution, just as you claim to be. How can you be so against what seems to be a progressive approach, when you and Phil agree in principle on the two-state solution?

He is not for the two-state solution.
He is for "a federated solution".

You must be using your Famous Russian Clarivoyant skills again, or else you are reading a different article--I don't see the term 'federated solution' anywhere, yet 'two-state solution' is right up front:

But let’s not bury the lead. The most important statements at the conference were from two Israeli politicians and one Palestinian on the tremendous importance of American Jews coming out in favor of a two-state solution now.

Now that you've been 'outed', I suspect that your next post will be how the IPF and the participants in this conference are actually a tiny minority.

Most Americans Jews (including me) were for favor of a two-state solution for a long time. We supported Clinton plan in 2000. So there are no news here.

I don't see the term 'federated solution' anywhere

Do a find on the page.
Anyway, how about you, leftAhead, do YOU in favor of a two-state solution now?

Ok, I did find it, at the end, however, I don't understand how this negates the two-state solution.

And, since you've been asking so politely, yes, I would favor a two-state solution--one that removes the illegal settlements.

Where? In Tel Aviv?

There might be some people somewhere who could be referring to Tel Aviv and the rest of Israel; but I think it reasonable to surmise that most of the commenters on this site would be referring to settlements beyond -- that is, largely east of -- the Green Line.

Oh, davai, you've once again proven why you are such a dwarfish troll--you don't really believe in the two state solution that the rest of us human beings are discussing here, you're just a simple, reactionary hater.

I've finally figured out what davai's two-state solution really is:

-the State of Israel for Jews

-the State of Misery for Palestinians

Your feeble dream involves penning up the Pals and calling it a state; luckily, you are an extreme minority, both here and everywhere--except in your own mind, which is a tiny piece of real estate indeed.

How did you figure out this?

Why do you only make quotes and ask questions?

When did you stop beating your wife?

What's wrong woth asking questions?

Were you beaten as a child?

What's wrong with you?

That's not true. Here's what Weiss said in the very first paragraph:

...and I’m going to blog about a number of things that happened there, including my own conversion to a two-state solution.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

But it's not what he said in his last paragraph.
His goal is still the same.
BTW, Wordie, how about you and your conversion to a two-state solution?

Even in the last paragraph Weiss confirms his support for a two-state solution in the here-and-now, and only describes the federated solution as an idealistic thing to talk about in the future when peace is achieved. Is that really so threatening?

And as far as my own beliefs are concerned, no "conversion" was ever necessary. Like Weiss, I believe that a one-state solution in which the religious and political rights of both Jews and Muslims were guaranteed would have represented the ideal, had it been accomplished in '48. But I'm practical enough to know that after so many years of hatred and bloodshed, it's not possible now. Therefore, I've always supported a two-state solution.

The nuance of my position is, I realize, lost on those who live in a black-and-white, good-and-evil world.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

only describes the federated solution as an idealistic thing to talk about in the future when peace is achieved. Is that really so threatening?
Yes, it's threatening, because the way MJ is not talking about providing about security of Israel and the way he is talking about Jerusalem solution, in reality the people who claim that they support two-state solution, still have the same goal, put Jews in Israel under control of Arab majority one way or another by creating some kind of federation with Arab countries or creating some kind of artificial state. Notice the language that MJ uses:
sharing the land and establishing security and justice for both peoples.
He is not talking about "dividing". I'm for dividing and huge fence. I'm not alone thinking that only good fence can bring peace. For example, Robert Frost who is not neocon, agree with me that
Good fences make good neighbors

A two state solution is the only solution. The problem, and it is never acknowledged or discussed, is that right now the Palestinians have divided themselves. One can imagine Olmert and Abbas reaching an agreement, having it somewhat implemented only to have Hamas and Fatah go to war over the agreement.

The settlers might make problems but is there really any doubt that if necesary either the IDF will remove them or the settlers will find themselves living within Palestinian territory.

Davai this isn't to disagree with you, it seemed like a convenient place to post this, but it is remarkable how every discussion of the Middle East is about what Isreal should or should not do while the reality of the Palestinians is ignored.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

And the reason is very simple. Joke about
the drunk looking for his keys explain everything.

Daniel.

"but it is remarkable how every discussion of the Middle East is about what Isreal should or should not do while the reality of the Palestinians is ignored."

For the most part, I have to agree. The Palestinian reality is ignored and when it is brought up, it's usually in claims such as :

"right now the Palestinians have divided themselves."

In what context have the Palestinians "divided themselves" Daniel? Did the Palestinians decide that it would be a good idea to subvert the unity government formed under the Saudi umbrella just because? Did the Palestinians "decide" to arm and train the Fatah forces of the corrupt and cowardly thug Mohammed Dahlan in order to rid Gaza of Hamas? Did the Palestinians decide to starve Gaza?

Or is it more likely that certain defenders of Israel refuse to admit the cupability of Israeli actions no matter what they do? If admitting the truth about Israel is impossible for you, at least you could admit the American role in this duo of the damned.

It would be a start.

Did the Palestinians decide to starve Gaza
Who decided to start "resistance" after Israel left Gaza and for what purpose and with what results to show for such "resistance"? Obviously people who made such decision didn't have best interests of residents of Gaza in mind.

Phil gets Sneh's title wrong. Most relevant, Sneh is a Brigadier General (ret) and the son of the commander of the Haganah (a leftist, like all of the soldiers and pioneers who built the state).

When I talk about the tide turning, I don't include the likes of Davai and certainly not the settler BarK. I am talking about the vast majority (90% or so) of Jewish Americans.

(1) Your statement that "90% of Jewish Americans" are "turning the tide", which I assume by that you mean that they are beginning to think like you. That is totally false. The fact that a slim majority may favor the "2-state solution" has nothing in common with your and Phil Weiss's position, and I don't believe anything like a majority support dividing (and thus destroying) Jerusalem.

(2) Your statement that "all the soldiers and pioneers who built the state were Leftists" is an outrageous falsehood. THE JEWISH PEOPLE BUILT THE STATE OF ISRAEL, and not one political party or another. True, the Leftist Kibbutzim made a major contribution, but so did the urban workers, most of whom were Sefardic and traditionalist if not religious. It was these people who built Israel's infrastructure and industry, not the kibbutzim. True, Ben-Gurion and his MAPAI (Labor Party) mafia appointed only political loyalists to high positions in the army, but there were many officers who were not Leftists and the rank-and-file soldiers included many right-wing people, including former ETZEL and LEHI underground fighters.
What you, MJ, consider the "Left" never was a majority in Israel. However, even most non-Leftists accepted Ben-Gurion's leadership and the parties that represented them, like the General Zionists, Agudat Israel, National Religious Party went along with him, even though they vociferously opposed many aspects of his policies and the pervasive corruption of his MAPAI machine.
It should be pointed out that Efraim Sneh's father was not simply a "Leftist", he was a Marxist-Leninst Communist and supporter of Stalin even after MAPAM started showind discomfort at Stalin's plan to carry out another Holocaust in the USSR as signalled by the "Doctor's Plot"...so you see, diseased political thinking in Israel is nothing new...the father had his perverted political icon (Stalin) and the son his (Arafat and Oslo). In fairness, it should be pointed out that Moshe Sneh did "teshuva" (repentence) on his deathbed and requested a traditional, Orthodox Jewish funeral and he stated his respect for Jewish tradition at that time, so there is hope that others will see the light as well.

I am talking about the vast majority (90% or so) of Jewish Americans
In your dreams, MJ, in your dreams. I'm sure that less than 0.1% of Jewish Americans support "a federated solution".

You know meaningful numbers of American Jews against a two state solution?

Daniel A. Greenbaum

Mr. Rosenberg, please answer davai's thoughtful questions to you. I would find your answers most illuminating, as I am sure other readers would. Happy Hanukah!

ALSO READ THIS FROM SATURDAY'S NEW YORK TIMES ON WHAT PALESTINIANS ENDURE AT THE HANDS OF THE SETTLERS. SICKENING.
MJ, first of all, can you make your mind, please, does Jewish lobby prevents telling American people truth about "WHAT PALESTINIANS ENDURE AT THE HANDS OF THE SETTLERS" or not.

Second, here is what French people have to endure at the hands of settlers. It's much more sickening.

There was also Tuesday signs that the violence had spread outside the Paris region when about a dozen cars were set on fire in the southern city of Toulouse.
For two nights running, young men have hurled petrol bombs and bricks at police, torching cars and buildings in Villiers le Bel, where two youths were killed in a motorbike collision with a police car.

Rioting took place in the city center of Lyon on Saturday, 12 November, as young people attacked cars and threw rocks at riot police who responded with tear gas. Also that night, a nursery school was torched in the southern town of Carpentras.[5]

On the night of the 14th and the morning of the 15th, 215 vehicles were burned across France and 71 people were arrested. Thirteen vehicles were torched in central Paris, compared to only one the night before. In the suburbs of Paris, firebombs were thrown at the treasury in Bobigny and at an electrical transformer in Clichy-sous-Bois, the neighborhood where the disturbances started. A daycare centre in Cambrai and a tourist agency in Fontenay-sous-Bois were also attacked. Eighteen buses were damaged by arson at a depot in Saint-Etienne. The mosque in Saint-Chamond was hit by three firebombs, which did little damage.

Only 163 vehicles went up in flames on the 20th night of unrest, 15 November to 16, leading the French government to claim that the country was returning to an "almost normal situation". During the night's events, a Roman Catholic church was burned and a vehicle was rammed into an unoccupied police station in Romans-sur-Isère. In other incidents, a police officer was injured while making an arrest after youths threw bottles of acid at the town hall in Pont-l'Évêque, and a junior high school in Grenoble was set on fire. Fifty arrests were carried out across the country.[6]

And some Black Americans rioted in Watts...so what? Does it prove that they are bad or that the United States was inherently, oppressively racist?

The Europeans have done a lousy job of welcoming immigrants. Sticking them in ghettos and then defining "citizenship" isn such a way as to make them permanent outsiders is hardly civilized. When France's social justice issues improve, the riots will become less frequent.

Thanks for responding by telling us what happened to 1 guy 16 years ago in contrast to the thousands of Palestinians (and 800 kids) killed over the few years including six this week.
But the Brooklyn story gives you the chance to move neatly from race baiting Arabs to your African American neighbors in NYC.

the thousands of Palestinians (and 800 kids) killed over the few years
As you might know, Sean,
the Intifada "was carefully planned since the return of (Palestinian President) Yasser Arafat from Camp David negotiations rejecting the U.S. conditions."[6]
During that Second Intifada, Palestinians terrorists/freedom fighters were trying to blow into pieaces every single Israeli kid they could. Israeli goverment had no choice but fight back. There were Palestinians civilians including children killed. However, the number that you use probably is not correct. For example:
Government Press Office director Danny Seaman denied the request, but in his response to the lawyers, accused the French network of manipulating its footage and harming Israel.

"The events of that day were in fact staged by the network's cameraman in Gaza, Mr. Talal Abu Rahma," Seaman wrote in the Sept. 23 letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press.

"Events could not have occurred as they were described by the network's reporter, Charles Enderlin, since they contradict the laws of physics," Seaman wrote.

This "blood libel," Seaman added, "inflamed the Arab world and led to many victims in Israel and across the world."

TEL AVIV, May 3, 2002 -- In a press briefing Thursday, IDF Intelligence Officer Colonel Miri Eisen screened a four minute tape of a staged Palestinian funeral photographed by an Israeli drone flying over Jenin on Monday, April 28. Pallbearers repeatedly tried to carry a green blanket wrapped around a man who pretended to be dead, but kept falling out of the blanket. The funeral took place between the area that was destroyed in the Jenin refugee camp and the nearby cemetery. The Palestinians, Col. Eisen said, sought "to show as many casualties as possible were buried inside Jenin. They tried to falsify evidence in preparation for the committee by executing a fake [funeral] ceremony, carrying the 'body' and filming the entire process." The film was screened to foreign reporters and later shown on Israeli television, causing considerable amusement among the TV commentators and journalists, since the "corpse" kept tumbling out of the blanket. "One time he falls off the stretcher when he is already in a crowd," Col. Eisen narrated. "When he came back to life in the middle of the crowd, the crowd breaks up because they didn't know that it wasn't really a corpse." Israel Radio reported that many reporters laughed at the point in the tape that the "corpse" seemed to "rise from the dead," causing the people around him to flee in terror.

Sean,
I'm contrasting riots in France, LA and in NY to riots that MJ pointed to in his post.

race baiting Arabs to your African American neighbors in NYC.

I don't race baiting anybody. If you have problems with Crown Heights Riot description, complain to Wikipedia.

Phil Weiss is a terrific writer who, only recently, began dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I also read his blog and it has superseded Haaretz, which I have read daily for so long I can't remember when I started, as the one read on the web I would not miss and recommend it to others here.

-----------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking

I don't normally post but I really don't get the connection between what the Palestinians endure at the hands of the settlers, and what happened to Yankel Rosenbaum. I was hoping someone could explain this to me.

I imagine it has something to do with the fact that the Jews have suffered at the hands of anti-semites all over the world and as a result must maintain the greater state of Israel so Jews will always be safe.

Or is it that Jews suffer at the hands of people of color, and therefore their actions are justified.

Personally, I don't know how anyone could defend the stuff going on in the article in todays Times and not be an insane nationalist of some sort.

I don't normally post but I really don't get the connection between what the Palestinians endure at the hands of the settlers, and what happened to Yankel Rosenbaum. I was hoping someone could explain this to me.
It has nothing to do, and it's not excuse for anything.
Personally, I don't know how anyone could defend the stuff going on in the article in todays Times and not be an insane nationalist of some sort.
I agree. Let's make sure that we're talking about the same riot.
Sometimes, a price is paid in blood. On Nov. 19, a 29-year-old local settler, Ido Zoldan, was shot dead in his car by Palestinian gunmen at the entrance to Funduk. Mr. Zoldan, who grew up in Kedumim, had worked in his father’s construction company, which builds settlement homes all over the West Bank.

The Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, a militia affiliated with the mainstream Fatah movement headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, took credit for the attack.

Five nights after the killing, hundreds of settlers converged at the entrance of Funduk in protest. They rampaged through the village, smashing house and car windows.


I'm not defending this riot, however I'm just pointing out that such things happen in many places where several ethnic groups live together or in proximity. I'm also pointing out that this riot ended up without any additional victims and was much milder compare to riots in France, LA or NY.
Therefore, I think that language such as "endure at the hands of the settlers" or "SICKENING" to describe this event is an exaggeration.
If MJ is SICKENED when to response to a killing of a member of one ethnic group, people broken several windows, he must be a very sick man. So much worse things happen every day in the world, so a normal person who wants to keep his/her sanity, can't possibly be SICKENED by such event.
So, MJ is a liar or a really sick man.

FYI, I think that Israel should remove Israeli civilians from the most of West Bank, including from Shvut Ami, right away without waiting for reaching final agreement with Palestinians, however, I would rather to argue this point without exaggerations.

A couple of points Davai. First, what the NYT described sounded to me like a pogrom. The very thought of Jews engaging in such behavior is sickening. That you are so dismissive of it is alarming.

Second, the settler who was killed was an occupier in violation of both Israeli and international law, consequently it was very different. IMHO, if you're going to choose to illegally occupy land that does not belong to you, you are taking your life in your hands. In short, the guy had it coming. I'm sure he was thrilled that it happened though because it allowed him to be a martyr, and gave his savage brethren-in-insanity an excuse to terrorize Palestinian children.

My third point really has nothing to do with the issues. Rather, it has to do with the fact that you kind of love MJ. You are always blowing up his blogs on here and driving up his reply counts. Its sort of strange. If he disgusts you so much, why do you wake up in the morning thinking about him? Sounds to me like the ultimate in fandom.

First, what the NYT described sounded to me like a pogrom. The very thought of Jews engaging in such behavior is sickening. That you are so dismissive of it is alarming
I'm sorry, but you have no clue what's pogrom. I guess, you got your information about pogroms from Fiddler on the Roof . My unkle was merdered in a pogrom. Pogroms were rapes, sadistic murders, burned houses and burned villages. How dare you compare few broken windows with pogroms? Yes, I'm not sickened of a few broken windows. If I was, I would be a very sick man given amount of terrible suffrering around the world we read every day.

God forbid I equate Palestinian suffering with Jewish suffering. I will be sure not to make that mistake again.

Obviously you can't equate Palestinian suffering with Jewish suffering in 20th century.
However, it does not give excuses settlers to go and rampage through the village, smashing house and car windows. In general, Jewish suffering in 20th century don't give excuses today Israel for anything.
On another hand, I'm totally reject your assertion:

That you are so dismissive of it is alarming

Just because my uncle was murdered in pogrom and some of my relatives were murdered in Holocaust, it doesn't mean that I have a special responsibility to be extra sensitive to Jews smashing house and car windows anywhere in the world and have to be especially sickened by it. I don't.
My point was that while smashing house and car windows is inexcusable, it's not pogrom, it's not genocide it’s not ethnic cleansing, it’s not a war crime, it's not LA riot, it's not French riot, it's not NY riot, it’s not a SICKENING.
The reason why it's not SICKENING is very simple, if you are SICKENINED by "smashing house and car windows" you must be sick every time you turn on TV, or read a newspaper and you don't.

First off the words is "sickened," not "sickenined."

Second off, you're not the only whose family has suffered. My ancestors were Eastern European Jews who suffered at the hands of anti-semites. I was named after a person who was butchered in the concentration camps, as was his sister. I don't have a big family because of what the Nazis did. So don't use that tired trick to argue your nationalist nonsense.

Second off its's all sickening. Yankel Rosenbaum's murder was sickening. Reginald Denny's murder was sickening. Countless murders in Northern Ireland were sickening But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the West Bank and Gaza. If I tell you that I think that what OJ did is disgusting I don't have to go and tell you that I think every other murder that ever happened in history is disgusting. I can leave it at just OJ. The rest are for another conversation another day.

With that in mind, your point in bringing this all up is to make the point that everyone else does this sort of thing so it's not particularly sickening when Jews do. In other words, you want to use other horrible ethnic transgressions to excuse the orthodox savages on the West Bank.

bsidewinzagain said:

My ancestors were Eastern European Jews who suffered at the hands of anti-semites. I was named after a person who was butchered in the concentration camps, as was his sister. I don't have a big family because of what the Nazis did.

My condolences.

Second off, you're not the only whose family has suffered.
This is totally irrelevant to our discussion. I don't excuse breaking windows by "orthodox savages on the West Bank". I've said this several times. I've just pointed out that breaking windows is not the same as murdering Yankel Rosenbaum or Reginald Denny by savages in US or not the same as burning cars by savages in France. If you caught shoplifting, it's not excuse that somebody else is a serial murderer, on another hand shoplifting or window smashing is not a murder. Does pointing out the difference mean that I excuse shoplifting?
Second off its's all sickening
If shoplifting or broken windows anywhere in the world make you sick, so to be. I can't help you. Let's agree to disagree.

And you can't equate Jewish suffering with Palestinian suffering in the 21st Century. Your goal posts are finally fixed.

You are correct, however Palestinian suffering often are often self inflicted. In the beginning of this century Palestinians got offer that would greatly reduce their suffering or eliminate them completely but they didn’t take the offer.They missed another opportunity to reduce the suffering. After withdrawal from Gaza, Palestinians decided to “resist”. This totally mindless and pointless “resistance” achieved noting for Palestinians but suffering

Having actually been to the West Bank for myself, your claim that Palestinian resistence is "mindless" shows that you are either ignorant of Israeli brutality or have no concept of freedom. A free people do not accept a foreign people's brutal overlordship over them. I know it may be hard for you--and for the nitwit Israeli UN Ambassador--but Palestinians do not consider the Jews a "gift." Maybe they would, if this "gift" didn't keep taking their land, uprooting their olive groves, and circling their towns and villages with barb wire.

I'm saying that after Israel left Gaza, Palestinian "resistance" in Gaza was pointless and mindless, and achieved nothing. If you can explain, what was the point of sending a few rockets in Israel every day? What did they achieve? You might agree with their right to "resistance", but you have to admit that their tactic in Gaza brought nothing but more suffering for Palestinians.

After a seemingly Pyrrhic victory in the Battle of Britain, after the fall of France and Britain's other continental allies, Rudolf Hess certainly regarded continued British resistance "mindless", especially if the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland agreed to spheres of influence with the Third Reich. In his strange flight to Britain in May 1941, Hess certainly believed resistance was mindless. After all, Britain only could send some symbolic bombing raids over continental Europe, as it patched its wounds and begged for resources from the United States.

Hess was surprised not to find his offer a "gift", not understanding the philosophy of Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill:


In war, resolution
In defeat, defiance
In victory, magnaminity
In peace, good will

By any reasonable standard, the Palestinians in Gaza have been defeated, and have absolutely no reason not to defy their conquerors. By any reasonable standard, they could accept economic assistance, although it is highly debatable if they have an area that can be more than a colony.

People aren't always reasonable and accept what their conqueror, or near-conqueror chooses to give them. They might be more reasonable had they a sense of dignity at the negotiating table.

Again apropos of Britain, I think of Sublieutenant John Godwin, Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve, who was captured by the Nazis, along with his raiding crew. They were taken to Sachenhausen Concentration Camp, and abused at length. Eventually, they were being taken to the execution grounds, but Godwin grabbed the firing squad leader's pistol and killed him. Godwin went down, moments later, in a hail of bullets. After all, that was going to happen to him anyway -- I wonder why he chose to die on his own terms? Rather mindless, isn't it?


--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

By any reasonable standard, the Palestinians in Gaza have been defeated
They have not been defeated, They won. Israel left. They could do anything they wanted but not attack Israel. Again apropos of Britain. John Godwin didn't choose to die. Most likely he would choose to stay in the camp instead of bite a guard's hand and be killed. He would probable choose to stay in camp over grabbing the guad's pistol and killing him. In our case a better analogy would be a choice to be sent to remote island until the end of war or bite a guard's hand and be killed.

At least Godwin got a law named after himself!

Perhaps one day, there will be a law named after davai.

Pathetic Howard, Your analogy with John Godwin backfired, so instead of admiting this or just silentlly move on, you just have to show a finger/rate 0. Poor Howard.

First, it is obvious you did not, in the slightest, understand the reference to John Godwin, his heroism, and his defiance.

Second, it is a rare honor to have you annoyed to the point that you resort to ad hominem rather than tu quoque. Clearly, your actual level of defiance is approximately equal to that of Brave Sir Robin, wink wink nudge nudge, know what I mean?

--
Howard

His utmost power with adverse power opposed
In dubious battle on the plains of Heaven,
And shook his throne. What though the field be lost?
All is not lost--the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield:
And what is else not to be overcome?
That glory never shall his wrath or might
Extort from me. To bow and sue for grace
With suppliant knee, and deify his power
Who, from the terror of this arm, so late
Doubted his empire--that were low indeed;
That were an ignominy and shame beneath
This downfall; since, by fate, the strength of Gods,
And this empyreal sybstance, cannot fail;
Since, through experience of this great event,
In arms not worse, in foresight much advanced,
We may with more successful hope resolve
To wage by force or guile eternal war,
Irreconcilable to our grand Foe,
Who now triumphs, and in th' excess of joy
Sole reigning holds the tyranny of Heaven.

I am trying very hard to avoid engaging Davai directly,
Poor pathetic Howard. He thought that he had a winnning argument, so he couldn't help but engage and lose.

I stand corrected. In your case, the comment would properly be ad puerem.

"There was also the strong sense that without the American Jewish community allowing Washington to become more independent, this moment will be lost."

I cannot believe that I am reading this from a website linked approvingly from TPM. This is appalling, raw Jew hatred.

Truly sickening....

nrglaw,

MJ has been accused of spewing Jew hatred more times than the Nazis.

Accusing MJ of Jew hatred is no different than accusing those of us who disagree with the Bush gang of being America haters, anti-American, unpatriotic, traitors, blah, blah, blah.

Why it's OK to accuse anybody who doesn't agree with MJ in racism, but it's not ok to point it out that he does spew Jew hatred over and over again. Here is a fresh example:

Unfortunately, the Israeli army in recent years has gone from being predominantly secular and leftish to being heaving religious and Russian-born. Many of these folks share the mentality of the settlers and cheer them on.

I'm just curious if this is position of IPF and Haim Ramon, the vice prime minister of Israel,
do people who come to IPF know that IPF employs
MJ, who is not ugly neocon but a person who about cares about several thousand year tradition of Jewish enlightenment and humanity.
With such Jewish humanists, why would Jews need antisemites?

My my. Powerful words MJ. You seem have provoked Davai to drop any attempts at civility and expose his/hers racism. These are the extreme views within Israel that I fear make any settlement possible.

I hope it is not too late for American Jews to influence events towards a two state solution. I fear it may be too late. If not then more power to you and Weiss.

I hope it is not too late for American Jews to influence events towards two state solution
Don't worry, it's not too late, but thank you for caring about Israel. There so few people here caring about Israel. I agree, we, American Jews need to influence events towards a two state solution. However, we don't need to push Israeli people to accept two state solution. They are ready fot peace. As MJ admits from time to time, in 2000 Israel was ready to offer a very good deal to Palestinians, however Arafat rejected that deal because Palestinians were not ready for two state solution. So, the way to achive the peace is to tell Palestinians that we will not abandon Israel, so there is not point for them to wait and hope for destruction of Israel. Unfortunately, if they read MJ posts they might get impression that American people in general and American Jews speciffically no longer support Israel, so they should just wait a little longer instead of making peace with Israel.

False propaganda. Arafat rejected Barak's offer because it stunk. No Israeli has ever offered Palestinians a real state, i.e., with borders, control of its own water resources, and...wait for it....the right to keep Israelis out. That has never happened. What the Barak "generous offer" crowd have offered is permanent Israeli overlordship over the Palestinians. Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't want to argue this point. MJ thinks now that Clinton plan was a good plan. So, go ahead and argues with him.

Right, Mythie. The Barak plan was exactly as you describe it. The plan Clinton put on the table, five months later when it was too late, was much better. But it was too late. Sharon was coming in as PM and made clear that he had nothing to offer. Plus, Clinton offered his ideas two weeks before Bush's inaugural.
Read Clayton Swisher's excellent "The truth About Camp David."

Okay, MJ, your screaming headlines have presumably done their job.....you convinced your fellow "progressives" that "hey--don't confuse me with those BAD Jews, I one of the GOOD Jews!".

I read the report in the NY TIMES. The story of the supposed incident at El-Funduk doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an angry demonstration there, but the report about the settlers supposedly smashing up the place is confused. First of all, we have two sides to the story....the Palestinians claimed the army "stood aside" while the incident was occurring, the army says they didn't and they broke up the demonstration. The army is a conscript force and is made up of all the various sectors of the population, so it includes many "Leftists" and "Rightists" who would oppose passively watching an incident as the one described by the Arabs.
How much damage was done? We aren't told. Although the article correctly points out that the gunmen were affiliated with the "moderate" FATAH terrorist group under Abbas direct control (unlike HAMAS), the article failed to point out the important fact that the gunmen were official, uniformed Palestinian policemen. This fact was already reported a week ago. What is even more odd to me is why this "atrocity" wasn't reported in screaming headlines in the Israeli media. Believe me, the editors of the 3 main daily newspapers in addition to those who run the electronic media don't like the settlers any more than MJ does, but I don't recall hearing any reports about a major incident in the village. They certainly would enjoy publicizing one if it indeed happened. Ha'aretz regularly publicizes incidents where Arabs, accompanied by various sympathetic foreign NGO's provoke rock-throwing incidents with settlers, and the stories often end up at the government's cabinet where the anti-Settler forces demand investigations which almost always never turn up anything. This makes me wonder if anything serious happened there at all.
Regarding the supposed "stealing" of Arab land.....much of the land in Judea/Samaria is classified as state land and Jews have every right to build on this state land. No doubt some Arabs may dispute the claims, the courts are the proper address to deal with these. They have in the past, and have found in favor of the two different sides in various cases. Peace Now's claim that much of the land the settlemens are built on is private Arab land is very doubtful because research was done before the building started. It is possible the courts will have to investigate this claim, but I don't think Peace Now has much of a case. It is important to remember that they are a political organization, and they oppose all Jewish settlements, regardless of their "legality", so they just view claims of the sort they are making as just another weapon in their political struggle. It doesn't have to be true for them to find making such a claim useful.

We lived in the Philly suburbs, and we lived in one particular house we purchased 40 years ago and paid off 15 years ago.

Last year some Philly people came here and forced me and my wife and 3 children out of our house and off our 3 acre lot. We now live in a cramped small apartment with what belongings we were able to take with us when we left our home.

We drive by our old house now and then and see the Philly people's kids playing on the swing sets we put up. We see them picinicking on the lot and enjoying the fruit trees.

Our children, seeing this and remembering the good times there, ask why we moved away.

We lived in the Philly suburbs, and we lived in one particular house we purchased 40 years ago and paid off 15 years ago.
Can you point to something like this in Israel or West Bank or Gaza?

I'm curious, bar, if your post means you deny that there is any violence by the settlers. No uprooted olive groves? No efforts to force Palestinians to abandon their property? No incidents of violence by settlers at all? No demolished homes and villages?

And since you brought up the issue of "state land," perhaps you'd like to explain why, in a supposedly democratic state, only Jewish Israelis are allowed by law to purchase land from the state. Do you have no problem with that? And that law applies within Israel proper, which is bad enough. Any land that is in the occupied territories is not legally Israeli state land according to international law, no matter what illegal definitions may be applied to it, either by the Israeli government or by yourself.

b'tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, has a very good article on the subject:

Taking control of the land in the West Bank

Israel has used a complex legal and bureaucratic mechanism to take control of more than fifty percent of the land in the West Bank. This land was used mainly to establish settlements and to create reserves of land for the future expansion of the settlements.

The principal tool used to take control of land is to declare it "state land." This process began in 1979 and is based on a manipulative implementation of the Ottoman Lands Law of 1858, which applied in the area at the time of occupation. Other methods employed by Israel to take control of land include seizure for military needs, declaration of land as "abandoned assets," and the expropriation of land for public needs. Each of these is based on a different legal foundation. In addition, Israel has assisted private citizens purchasing land on the "free market."

The process employed in taking control of land breaches the basic principles of due procedure and natural justice. In many cases, Palestinian residents were unaware that their land was registered in the name of the state, and by the time they discovered this fact, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always rests with the Palestinian claiming ownership of the land. Even if he meets this burden, the land may still be registered in the name of the state on the grounds that it was transferred to the settlement "in good faith."

Despite the diverse methods used to take control of land, all the parties involved - the Israeli government, the settlers, and the Palestinians - have always perceived these methods as part of a mechanism intended to serve a single purpose: the establishment of civilian settlements in the territories. Accordingly, the precise method used to transfer the control of land from Palestinians to Israel is of secondary importance. Moreover, since this purpose is prohibited under international law, the methods used to secure it are also unlawful.

Israel uses the seized lands to benefit the settlements while prohibiting the Palestinian public from using them in any way. This use is forbidden and illegal in itself, even if the process by which the lands were taken was fair and in accordance with international and Jordanian law. As the occupier in the Occupied Territories, Israel is not permitted to ignore the needs of an entire population and to use land intended for public needs solely to benefit the settlers.

The High Court of Justice has generally sanctioned the mechanism used to take control of land. In so doing, the Court has contributed to imbuing these procedures with a mask of legality. The Court initially accepted the state's argument that the settlements met urgent military needs and allowed the state to seize private land for this purpose. When the state began to declare land "state land," the Court refused to intervene to prevent this process.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

I think you are confusing two different things here. Within pre-1967 Israel, the Jewish National Fund has a mandate to purchase land for Jewish settlement. The Supreme Court recently ruled that was "racist", and ordered some sort of other arrangement to be made. Money was collected from generations of Jews for this purpose and yet the Court ruled that the land their money can be taken away from their collective ownership. This is a major scandal and has caused a further erosion in the Court's standing in public opinion.
In Judea/Samaria, JNF does not have any land (I think there was a small amount before 1948 but I don't know what happened to it).

Judea/Samaria, as a result of the Oslo Agreements was divided into 3 types of territory

"A"-under Palestinian civil and security control

"B"-under Palestinian civil but Israeli security control and

"C"-under Israeli civil and security control

The "state lands" I referred to which can be used for Jewish settlement are only in the "C" zone. Thus State Lands in the A and B zones Israel has no control over.
Regarding the "C" zone, I don't believe there is anything that can prevent an Arab getting use of it, I really don't know. I believe that something lie 60% of the total land area of Judea/Samaria is A or B. Most the State land in the "C" zone is either in the eastern slope of the central mountain range which goes down to the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. (this areas is almost completely empty)or Western Samaria which also has a small population with the exception of the towns of Qalqilya and Tulkarem.
The large part of the Arab population in Judea/Samaria is located on the central mountain ridge and few Jewish settlements are in this area, since the land there is mostly under Arab control.

You're right that the state lands issue within Israel was decided in favor of preserving the democratic rights of Israeli Arabs in 2004, but there's now a bill in the Knesset to overturn that ruling, and revert to the no-Arab policy. That part of my post wasn't really the primary point, however.

The Israelis have no right to annex any portion of the occupied territories under international law - whether they are "empty" or not - and that's essentially the intent of the de facto settler policy.

Further, your claim that most of the Jewish settlement activity in the occupied territories has occurred within "empty" lands in Area C isn't accurate. Again, take a look at the b'tselem info on this issue (and I'd like to suggest actually following the link, as there are maps there graphically illustrating the point):

The Eastern Strip includes the Jordan Valley and the shore of the Dead Sea. As of 2002, approximately 5,400 settlers live in this area, mainly in kibbutzim and moshavim. With the exception of the Jericho enclave, almost the entire area of the Eastern Strip is included within the areas of jurisdiction of two regional councils: Arvot Hayarden and Megillot, which jointly occupy over 1.2 million dunams. The injury to the Palestinian population caused by the settlements in this area relates mainly to the restriction of possibilities for economic development in general, and agriculture in particular, resulting from the denial of the two resources required for this purpose: land and water.

The Mountain Strip is situated along the central mountain ridge that crosses the West Bank from north to south. Most of the settlements in this area were initiated by Gush Emunim. The population of the settlements totaled approximately 34,000 as of 2002. Some of the settlements are dispersed in a string formation along Road No. 60 - the main north-south traffic artery in the West Bank. With the goal of protecting the safety of settlers in this area, the IDF imposes severe restrictions on the freedom of movement of Palestinians along this road, making it impossible to maintain normal everyday life. In addition, these settlements block, to a lesser or greater extent, the potential for urban development in the major Palestinian cities situated along the mountain ridge (Hebron, Ramallah, Nablus and Jenin).

The Western Hills strip extends from north to south, and is ten to twenty kilometers wide. The proximity of this area to the Green Line and to the main urban centers of Israel has created great demand among Israelis for the settlements in this area. The total population of the settlements in this area was approximately 85,000 as of 2002. The seizure of land limits the potential for urban and economic development in the Palestinian communities. The transfer of powers to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo Accords has led to the creation of over fifty enclaves of area B in this area, as well as a small number of enclaves defined as area A. These areas are completely surrounded by area C, which remains under full Israeli control. As a result, these settlements interrupt the territorial contiguity of the Palestinian villages and towns located out along this strip.

The Jerusalem metropolis includes the settlements established in the area annexed to the Municipality of Jerusalem (these settlements are referred to as "neighborhoods” in domestic Israeli discourse), as well as the settlements around the area of jurisdiction of the city that function as satellite communities. As of 2002, the settlements in this area included approximately 248,000 residents. The ramifications of these settlements in terms of the Palestinian population vary in the different parts of the metropolis. The establishment of the settlements in East Jerusalem entailed the expropriation of extensive areas of privately-owned Palestinian land; the area of jurisdiction of the settlements in the area east of the metropolis (Ma'ale Adummim and the adjacent community settlements) dissect the West Bank into two parts; the settlements in Gush Etzion, located south of the metropolis, block the urban development of Bethlehem and sever it from the adjacent Palestinian communities.

Your "empty" lands comments seem to harken back to the early Zionist propaganda about "a land without people for a people without a land," and most of us realize those claims were false as well. The rabbis sent by Herzl to investigate the issue way back in 1896 told him, "the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." Yet there are some, such as yourself, who remain in convenient denial about even the very presence of the Palestinians, much less their natural rights, in the lands that some Jewish people covet.

 

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

While I don't agree with the substance of all your points, I have to say this was a well-written presentation that I appreciate. When you raise questions, they are thoughtful and deserve answers, rather than the loaded and cryptic sort from another poster.

Your points about land and the courts are, for example, very good ones. While I generally have not heard convincing arguments for settlements in Judea and Samaria, as I understand the Israeli courts, they tend to be quite independent, and may have some good insights.

One tangential thing -- your posts would be easier to read if the paragraphing were more clear. I put (left angle bracket) BR (right angle bracket) as the first thing in each paragraph. Double or triple spacing between paragraphs also help.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Quite interesting that the one cold blooded murder that takes place in the NY article was a Jew sitting in his car - who could have been anyone - and the SICKENING part to MJ is everything else in the article.

My point being that this whole conflict is sickening. From illegal outposts to blown up discos, its all sick. But to put it all on Israel relieving the Palestinians of any of its actions is also a bit sick.

Anyone? I don't think so. Most people don't illegally settle land in order to antagonize the people that live there.

The whole conflict is sickening, but it is disingenuous to equate a kid partying at a disco to an illegal settler sitting in his car in a place he is not allowed to be. While I don't ever think violence is appropriate I can understand why a Palestinian would kill a settler (much the way I understand why the Stern Gang would have blown up the King David Hotel when it was filled with English soldiers). I don't agree with either but I understand it. Nothing justifies the killing and terrorizing of innocent people, whether they be at a disco, or going about their lives in their towns.

Yes anyone. The Palestinian cell was waiting in the village for an Israeli licensed plate car to pass by and just shot - they didnt ask the person before shooting who he was.

Also, what do you mean he is not allowed to be there? Of course he does. He lives there. So i dont really understand what you mean or how that can be understandable.

This didn't take place in Beer'sheva. It was on the West Bank, no? The guy was a settler, right?

As a result, he is not allowed to be there. And if he is there, its at his own risk, much like other people who choose to take peoples homes from them.

There are half of millions Israelis including many children live outside Green zone.
Do I correctly understand that from your point of view, murdering them is OK with you?
In general, do I undersand your position that Palestinians whos home was taken from them can murder Jews anywhere in Israel if they live on the Palestinian land?

As a result, he is not allowed to be there
Is not allowed by whom? BTW, what's your opinion about murdering illegal immigrant, who is not allowed to be in US, by somebody who thinks that that illegal imigrant took a job from that American and as the result he and his family lost their house?

WOW, MJ, I just read all tho replies to your post, you REALLY did it this time!

John W: Your story about losing your home is telling. The settlers' stealing of Pal lands, their houses, their olive groves is horrific. Most wars are fought over stolen lands, stolen livelihood. Even if the Germans had not killed millions, millions would have been willing to die and to kill to get back their land. (If only the Czechs had been allowed to).

The idea of treating the stealing of land as a minor crime like stealing a car is absurd.

The crazies at this site will suggest that pointing out the viciousness of these settlers is like attacking the good people of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, and the Galilee. It isn't as mainstream Israelis' own hatred for the crazed settlers proves.

The Israeli government has to evict these people now and start prosecuting them for their crimes.
Unfortunately, the Israeli army in recent years has gone from being predominantly secular and leftish to being heaving religious and Russian-born. Many of these folks share the mentality of the settlers and cheer them on.

Okay, MJ, let's go all the way. Tel Aviv University is now sitting on land that belonged to the Arab village of Sheikh Munis before 1948. As a result of Israel's War of Independence (which the Arabs started), the Arabs either fled (most likely) or were forced out of the village. Tel Aviv University took over the land, didn't pay the Arabs a dime for it and built the University there. The original Arab owners are probably languishing in a refugee camp in Gaza now. Now, tell me, why are you outraged by what the Settlers do, but not what your fellow "progressives" at Tel Aviv U did?

I am going to reply to some of the nonsense you wrote....I don't care what you think about my reply, but I am posting it so that others who read this will understand the true situation.

Almost all the settlements in Judea/Samaria are built on hill tops that have always been empty. Arabs use land in the wadis (lower-lying valleys) for agricultural purposes and themselves build their villages on the hillsides. Any land that has been used for agriculture is not used for the settlement because it is recognized as being privately owned. As far as I know, Israel has not confiscated land in Judea/Samaria for building settlements. The story of the "destroyed" olive trees which gets everybody excited has never been verified. A cabinet committee was appointed to investigate the matter, and don't forget this gov't is a left-wing coalition in which neither the settlers nor the traditional right (i.e. the Likud) are represented. They had the police and army look into it but no settlers were ever implicated. Settlers have no reason to chop down olive trees on private Arab land. However, there are areas bordering Jewish settlements where Arabs planted olive trees on land they don't own and as I understand, some of these were uprooted.
Israel and those of us who support the Jewish settlement movement in Judea/Samaria have nothing to apologize for. Jews have lived in Judea/Samaria more or less continuously for 4000 years. Jews lived there before the 1948, and every single Jew in the territories that Jordan occupied in Judea/Samaria in 1948 was either killed or expelled, UNLIKE the situation in Israel where an Arab minority has remained until this day.
As I have stated numerous times, the settlements are NOT illegal (someone will now throw a World Court decision at me, but I don't know whether it really has jurisdiction in this case, perhaps it really only has jurisdication if both sides are present and can present their case). I do know that when Jimmy Carter said the settlements were illegal, the international law section of the State Dept. researched the matter and concluded that Judea/Samaria have the status of "disputed territories" and the settlements are legal. The Israeli Supreme Court, almost all of whose Justices are Leftists have also ruled they are legal.
Ever since then, no President of the US has ever said they are "illegal", but rather base their complaints against them as being "obstacles to peace" (whereas actually the opposite is true).

The large majority of Israelis support the existence of at least some of the settlements, even the Ha'aretz newspaper recently called on Israel to maintain the so-called "Settlement blocs". The hatred you have for them is representative of somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of the Jewish population. Most Israelis, even if they feel that some settlements should be dismantled for peace, look on the Jews of Judea/Samaria as idealists and as positive figures in Israeli society. The proof of what I am saying is reflected in the vote Sharon called among Likud party members on whether to destroy Gush Katif (which was considered more problematic from a security point of view than those of Judea/Samaria).
Sharon lost the vote 60-40%, but he reneged on his promise to honor the results and went ahead anyway. This is why he and the Labor Party ADAMANTLY opposed calling new elections in order to get a public mandate for the move...he knew he would lose it.
Amram Mitzna, head of the Labor Party during the 2003 elections, made the centerpiece of his election platform a promise to destroy Gush Katif. Sharon, at the time said he opposed it, and Mitzna was trounced in the election. I hope this gives a true picture of how Israeli view the settlements, unlike the hysterical nonsense that MJ wrote above.

The large majority of Israelis support the existence of at least some of the settlements, even the Ha'aretz newspaper recently called on Israel to maintain the so-called "Settlement blocs". The hatred you have for them is representative of somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of the Jewish population. Most Israelis, even if they feel that some settlements should be dismantled for peace, look on the Jews of Judea/Samaria as idealists and as positive figures in Israeli society.

While it is true that if you ask Israelis to make a blanket judgment about "settlers" most will hesitate before condemning the whole lot of them.  That's because most Israelis know that settlers come in various flavors.  There are the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem commuters.  There are the security settlements, mostly in the Jordan Valley, and there are the religious fanatics - the ones who conquer the hilltops.  And many other varieties as well.  About 10-15% of Israelis - the MJ crowd - probably would not make a distinction.  They hate them all. 

But it is the religious fanatics, the ones who say that God gave the land to the Jews, that are very unpopular with most Israelis.  This suspicion mirrors the tension between secular and religious that is a defining feature of Israeli society today.  To say that these people are regarded by most Israelis as positive role models is simply preposterous. 

May I ask a question about Israeli civil law, with no hidden meanings? Is there a concept of "statute of limitations"? For example, for certain debts in the US, if there has been no activity either way for five years, the debt is wiped out.

Real estate law varies widely, and is one of the reasons in the US for title insurance (which has its elements of being a racket, but that's a different subject). In many states, one can bring up a very old claim to land ownership and prevail.

Is Israeli law equally confusing? To take your example, would a statute of limitations apply to the Tel Aviv University land--if there were no claims in so many years, possession determines ownership. In some US states, if a claimant could establish a 100-year old title that was never discharged, they would prevail.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Yes there is a statute of limitations. Land laws in Israel are quite confusing -- actually one of my hardest University courses, so unfortunately i cannot completely answer your question without doing a little more research but i do remember something about gaining ownership by just sitting on a property and working that property for X years.


Is Israeli law equally confusing? To take your example, would a statute of limitations apply to the Tel Aviv University land--if there were no claims in so many years, possession determines ownership. In some US states, if a claimant could establish a 100-year old title that was never discharged, they would prevail.

Howard to add to the situation, Israel does not have a constitution. It relies on the High Court for certain gray area rulings.

These two articles are from Haaretz about how much of the settlement blocks are illegal.
These articles and others seem to say that after 1979 the settlement process continued, but the IDF security claims were not filed about the lands and thus there are no documents of control of the land by Israel for the purpose of security. The land that the settlements were built on before 1979 in which the chain use for “security” purposes are on file still require that it be returned at some point.

Please go to the original articles and read all of the articles. I tried to insure that the first article contained the importat information, but please check for yourself.

40 percent of settlements were built on Palestinian land (Title is a link.)
By Yair Sheleg, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and Agencies

A new study conducted by left-wing group Peace Now has found that approximately 40 percent of settlements, including long-standing communities, are built on private Palestinian land and not on state-owned land.

In a press conference held in Jerusalem on Tuesday, the group presented a report asserting that out of a total area of 157,000 dunams used by West Bank settlements and industrial zones, 61,000 dunams (approximately 38 percent) are privately owned by Palestinians.

The report singles out the two largest settlements, both of which have city status. It says that 86.4 percent of Ma'ale Adumim is built on Palestinian land, and 35.1 percent of Ariel.

The group says that the data presented in the report "demonstrates that the property rights of many Palestinians have been systematically violated in the course of settlement building."


Blow to settlement movement Peace Now report yesterday (Title is a link.)
By Nadav Shragai Thu., November 23, 2006 Kislev 2, 5767
If the data published in the Peace Now report yesterday are true, the settlement movement yesterday suffered a severe blow. This is true both from a public relations point of view - for years the movement has claimed that the settlements have never stolen land - and from a legal point of view, although this has yet to be examined.
………………………….
…………………………….
What appears to be the most significant and surprising revelation is that about the building on private Palestinian lands after 1979 - the year in which the High Court of Justice handed down what is known as "the Elon Moreh ruling." Until that time, Israel would set up settlements by seizing lands "for urgent military purposes," which is congruent with international law. This leaves the official ownership of the lands still in the hands of the original owner and it is valid for a limited period. In order to continue holding the lands, the army must issue notification every few years, that it has taken over the lands again.

This was the custom until 1979 and dozens of settlements were built in this way. In that year, the army seized 700 dunams belonging to the villagers of Rujeib, south of Nablus, for the establishment of Elon Moreh. The land owners petitioned the High Court of Justice and the state responded that one reason for the land seizure was an urgent security need.

At that point, the settlers stated that this was not a passing security need and that the settlement was built as a permanent site that served religious Zionist, and political, ends. As a result, the court accepted the land owners' petition and canceled the seizure orders. From that point on, the state stopped issuing seizure orders when settlement building.

Now it appears from the report that settlements continued to be built on private Palestinian lands after 1979 - even the large urban settlements inside the "blocs," such as Ma'aleh Adumim, Givat Ze'ev and Ariel.


-----------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking

Howard: Since the formation of the state of Israel, their land laws have been designed specifically to deny the Palestinians, both the refugees and the Israeli Arabs, their claims to the land. Read this wiki, Land and Property laws in Israel, for some background on this issue. The section on "abandonment" is especially disturbing.

This series of articles on the topic by the UK Guardian's Middle East correspondent Chris McGreal, who also covered South Africa's apartheid regime, is also good.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

To me it seems hatred of settlers is an extreme position and held mainly by the extreme left in Israel not the mainstream so im not sure where you get that from. Id like to know considering that as an Israeli, living in Israel, the feeling i may have in regrds to this issue may in fact be wrong - i suppose you are basing this statement on something...

The fact that mainstream Israelis are willing to give up settlements doesnt mean a hatred for settlers - it only means that they have had enough bombs going off in their discos and busses and rockets landing on their schools and are willing to give up a dream for real peace.

lh25 said:

To me it seems hatred of settlers is an extreme position and held mainly by the extreme left in Israel not the mainstream so im not sure where you get that from.

Would hate of the settlers by the Palestinians who lost their homes be an "extreme position"?

MJ mentioned hatred by mainstream Israelis of settlers and thats what i was commenting on.

To answer your question - I can certainly understand hatred of a Palestinian who lost his home or relative. I dont believe Palestinian hatred for Israelis and vice versa is an extreme position. Each side has legitimate claims to hate the other.

lh25,

I stand corrected.

How many Palestinians lost their homes after 1967 because of settlers? I think it's urban myth.

Nice propaganda point. If you ignore all the homes destroyed by the IDF, probably zero. But you also have to ignore that these settlements are built on confiscated land, much of it Palestinian farmland. And the Apartheid Wall is absolutely built on Palestinian farmland and olive groves. Since this is how Palestinians make their living as farmers, it amounts to stealing their livelihoods.

You may not see the connection, but many, many others do.

If you ignore all the homes destroyed by the IDF, probably zero
Thank you for honesty. John please correct your analogy that's just bogus.
And the Apartheid Wall is absolutely built on Palestinian farmland and olive groves
The fence that saved many lives of Israelies and Palestinians, is mostly on the Green line. http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/operational.htm

Well if the "fence" is such a life saver why didn't the Zionist's build it on their land? Answer: The good Palestinian farmland is on the other side so they confiscated that too.

And I wouldn't congratulate yourself on my accurate statement that "except" for those houses destroyed by the IDF, the settlements haven't demolished houses.

It's called irony. Like, "So, Ms. Lincoln, except for the shooting, how was the play?"

Well if the "fence" is such a life saver why didn't the Zionist's build it on their land? Answer: The good Palestinian farmland is on the other side so they confiscated that too.
How did you come with your answer? BTW, I don't think that word "confiscated" is a correct one. The Palestinians were paid for the property used for security.
And I wouldn't congratulate yourself on my accurate statement that "except" for those houses destroyed by the IDF, the settlements haven't demolished houses.
I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Another winner: "The Palestinians were paid for the property used for security."

Hence, the huge number of Palestinian millionaires.

Yes, too many of them stole money from Palestinians.
However, you can't deny that Israeli goverment compensated Palestinians for any property and land that was used to build the fence.

Yes, we are well aware that but for Arafat, Palestinians would all be millionaires. More to the point: You use these words like "compensate" which can mean anything, and act like it's decisive. Having the Zionist Entity toss a few shekels to Palestinians after taking their livelihood is not compensation. The Hasbara propaganda flood just goes on and on....

Yes, we are well aware that but for Arafat, Palestinians would all be millionaires
I didn't say that. Most of Americans are not millionaires too.

c'mon, davai, where is that 'rich sense of irony' that you're so well known for?

As I pointed out in another posting, it is untrue that cultivated Arab farmland was confiscated for settlements. Right in the heart of the Gush Etzion bloc of settlements there is cultivated Arab farmland. The settlements are locaed on empty hilltops, which are unsuited for agricultural purposes.

The fact that mainstream Israelis are willing to give up settlements doesnt mean a hatred for settlers
Please use more precise language. There are 500.000 Israelis live outside 67 borders. Do mainstream Israelis consider all of them settlers?

anyone living in areas not annexed to Israel is considered by mainstream Israelis to be a settler. Thus, the Golan is not included nor east Jerusalem...

Is anybody inside the fence "settler"?

no. not by mainstream israelis.

I've noticed a certain poster here make a lot of comments about their support for "withdrawing the settlers," and I've long suspected that this amounts to a semantic sleight-of-hand. Whatever Israelis may typically call the settlements that fall outside the Green Line, they are all settlements in the view of international law, and in the view of just about every nation except Israel itself. This includes those settlements in and around Jerusalem, many of which Israel has built on expropriated Palestinian land after illegally annexing the city following the 1967 war. Even the U.S. doesn't recognize the annexation. 

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

Even the U.S. doesn't recognize the annexation
Actually, both Clinton and Bush recognized the reality.
I've noticed a certain poster here make a lot of comments about their support for "withdrawing the settlers
Correct, I support removing all settlers outside the fence. I've never supported, and I don't think that even MJ or his employer support removing ALL Israelis who live outside the Green zone. So if you want to argue this point, argue with MJ.

MJ,

fortunately for me, my "story" was just that, a story I created to show how wrong the unjustified taking of one's home is. When you bring the "settlements" home and apply the action to yourself and your family it can take on a whole new meaning.

I agree it's wrong, but this doesn't happen,
this "story" is a myth for a lazy people who want to believe the worst about Israel.

The crazies at this site will suggest that pointing out the viciousness of these settlers is like attacking the good people of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, and the Galilee. It isn't as mainstream Israelis' own hatred for the crazed settlers proves.

The Israeli government has to evict these people now and start prosecuting them for their crimes.


There are 500.000 people in Israel live outside 67 border including the good people of Jerusalem.
MJ proposes to put them in the jail.
MJ also declares that murdering half of million Jews by Palestinian freedom fighters is appropriate, he declares open season on them.
This is really in "thousand year tradition of Jewish enlightenment and humanity".
Most wars are fought over stolen lands, stolen livelihood.

Correct, Germany started WW2 to get back the land they thought was stolen from them. So, what's your point?

You still have not answered davai's questions from yesterday, Mr. Rosenberg. I don't expect that you will because doing so would force you to decide whether to agree publicly with an idiot like Weiss.

While I am trying very hard to avoid engaging Davai directly, I shall respond to you, given your lower volume. Were I in MJ's position, I would not answer Davai's questions until and unless, unlikely as that might be, that they are true questions.

It is frightening that the better of his questions are merely of the "have you quit beating your wife" variety, constructed in a manner that leaves the person question no objective way to respond. The lesser of Davai's questions are simply incomprehensible.

If you are capable of phrasing a clear question, to which someone can answer responsibly and not necessarily agree with you, I suggest you yourself do so, rather than suggest responding to Davai. A fair number of people here are doing their best to ignore him, for the same reason that a drunk using a lamp for support rather than illumination is a rather useless pursuit.

Again: fair questions allow the person questioned to give an extended and relevant answer, should they choose to do so. This is not a courtroom where you have been given leave to treat a witness as hostile and ask leading questions. It is, I hope, a place where some learning can take place. For example, I am getting some useful background on Israeli courts and land law.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Howard,

I have warned you repeatedly to refrain from introducing logic, intellectualism, and well thought out posts, and yet you continue down this path.

For this latest infraction I find I'm forced to fine you $10.00.

This is not a courtroom where you have been given leave to treat a witness as hostile and ask leading questions.
Why not, very often (not always) the truth is discovered in a courtroom. A politician doesn't like probing questions, because he usually wants to obsure his/her position. If MJ an honest poster and not a propagandist, he should not be afraid of probing or even hostile questions.

Agreed--however, he is under no obligations to answer them.

Sure, nobody is under obligations to answer any questions or continue discussion.

Notice this quote: "Regarding the supposed "stealing" of Arab land.....much of the land in Judea/Samaria is classified as state land and Jews have every right to build on this state land. No doubt some Arabs may dispute the claims, the courts are the proper address to deal with these."

So Israeli government deparments and Israeli courts are the proper place for Palestinians to seek redress if they lose their land...?

Priceless.

"So Israeli government deparments and Israeli courts are the proper place for Palestinians to seek redress if they lose their land...?"


They are. MJ's article in the NY times even points out an Israeli voluntary organization helping Palestinians in such cases. Additionally, it goes on to state that the courts have even ruled in favor of the Palestinians.

The problem comes about in enforcing such decisions by the court. The government has promised to find a solution - which it, unfortunately, hasnt up until now. But i would like to believe that it will.

I think mainstream Israelis dont view these land stories as such a big deal (even if they are)because they see at as part of a much larger picture and believe in any case that a Palestinian state will eventually be formed and the majority of west bank settlements and certainly illegal outposts will be removed as part of the creation of such state.

So Israeli government deparments and Israeli courts are the proper place for Palestinians to seek redress if they lose their land...?

It amazes me that bar was making those statements, apparently with absolutely no sense of irony. No matter what the courts say, the de facto policy within the IDF is to support settlement activity, so even success in the courts means little. According to Peace Now, only 3% of demolition orders are carried out.

The Israel Defense Forces Civil Administration carried out only three percent of its own demolition orders for illegal construction in West Bank settlements over the past ten years, according to a Peace Now report published Tuesday.

According to the report, from 1997-2007 the Civil Administration issued 3449 demolition orders for illegally built structures in the settlements and settlement outposts, but evacuated and demolished only 107 of them, the report stated.

On a related note, Israel recently annouced plans to build 307 housing units in East (Palestinian) Jerusalem. This comes right on the heels of the Annapolis conference, and would seem to be in violation of the Israeli Road Map responsibility to cease all settlement activity. But the same semantic slight-of-hand that we see so frequently here at TPM Cafe in MJ's threads is at work in Israel itself, whereby "settlements" are re-defined to mean only "settlement outposts," and not at all to Jerusalem, because of the earlier illegal annexation of the city. Israeli Housing Minister Ze'ev Boim said,

"The neighborhood of Har Homa is within the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem to which Israeli law applies. Accordingly, there is no obstacle to building there as there is no obstacle to building anywhere else in Israel."

 

So much for Annapolis...

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

No matter what the courts say, the de facto policy within the IDF is to support settlement activity, so even success in the courts means little
It's not true that de facto policy within the IDF is to support settlement activity, however this issue as even you can probably understand is not the highest priority for IDF. Just for comparison, what percent of departation orders for illegal immigrants is actually resulted in departation?

Ah, another question that doesn't merit an answer. Do have any other tool except "tu quoque"?

On another note.

This past Thursday I made Potato Latkes (they were excellent, of course). Today, at the request of my wife, I'm making Challah (its in the kitchen rising, 2 loaves) and last night I watched Blazing Saddles for about the 5th time.

Ya gotta love the Jews. :-)

"Ya gotta love the Jews. :-"

With certain exceptions!