Sometimes a joint is just a joint.

Hey Susan, as long as you're quoting Freud, how's your penis envy doing?

Forgive me for explaining the joke but in case anyone's thinking of complaining about this post with an eye towards censorship, I am commenting on the ironic tendency of certain feminists to quote Freud as an authoritative source when it serves their purpose and damn him for the insufferable quack he so undoubtably was when it doesn't.

Regrettably your visit here became more of a demonstration of the phenomenon you are addressing than a conversation about the substance of your observations. Perhaps there is a lesson in that. I have entirely too much self-respect to comment in public on a book that I have not read. I have wanted to engage the discussion because I hold the subject of your work to be important and interesting. I could tell from your first two posts that there is intelligence, depth and nuance to your approach, which further encouraged my silence. I concluded long ago that I don’t learn much when I’m talking. So I have been content to listen.

I do have an observation on the “wordy” arguments against that have been filling the pages of this exchange. I say “wordy” because, well, when all someone has is words that is what they are likely to use. Experience and reflection tend to imbue words with meanings that are more than the sum of their rhetorical whole. At that moment arguments of either/or, reductios and, god help us, empirical proof fall away in favor of understanding. In short, I wholeheartedly endorse the sentiment of your third title “The Primacy of Palaver.”

I take issue with these argumentative responses, namely that they are rooted in the error of American exceptionalism. None of the respondents here would object to characterizations of national predispositions. The French are French like, the Spanish are Spanish like, and so the English, Swedes, Germans, Iraqis … but not the U.S. We don’t have a personality, we have technology. The U.S. is the land of i-pods and space shuttles. We are “rational,” unlike everyone else. And therefore our behavior can be measured. It need not be understood. It is the charm of your effort that it avoids this error and attempts an understanding.

I would say your first sentence is about the lowest inane comment I've ever read at the Cafe' and I've read some pretty pathetic stuff such as SFC Wallace's.

Thanks for joining the fray, Susan. The history of the Puritans in your book was really eye-opening. I enjoyed and share your grudging admiration for the internal logic and consistency of their theology; it was fascinating how it unraveled under the relentless influx of Indian attacks. I suspect we're going to see a similar erosion of the success theology of modern evangelical Christianity; people will start to lose faith that financial success follows devotion to Jesus when that success just keeps not coming.

If you look at the empirical research that's been done on Freud's theories (see Fisher and Greenberg - or try the reverse - for a summary some years ago), the theories seem applicable to men much more so than to women. Just to add that little wrinkle to the mix here.

Obviously some people imagine that therapists or analysts apply any theories to people, irregardless of their individuality. Far from it! Every therapist is constantly working out - along with the person who has come to them - a theory of that particular individual, their approach to life, whether their ways of coping work well or not, the factors and relationships which have gone into their very own personal unique ways of looking at the world and acting within the world, including their inner world of dreams, fantasies, etc.

There is no one-size-fits-all therapy. And anyone who tries that is bound to fail!

Freud was indeed a strange guy. Had many hang-ups. He had a strong desire for fame. He cobbled together many ideas floating around in his day (See "A Discovery of the Unconscious" by Ellenberger for a detailed view of that.) He made a lot of mistakes. And he had some successes. He, like bush, wanted followers who faithfully adhered to his "doctrines." He cut people off if they became independent thinkers.

No one today slavishly follows Freud, any of his followers, or those whom he cut off from his inner circle. It's a long process to become a therapist or analyst. And seeing anyone for therapy or analysis is a choice and depends most on the fit between the two people.

This is somewhat off the topic, but I posted it just to make a few clarifications.

(this post was edited to correct the name of a book above and give author)

You are, of course, and without presenting any evidence of your own, presuming that Freud is right exactly when he support Faludi's point, thus proving my point. Freud's methods were consistent and since he has obviously produced results that are screaming bupkis he is discredited wholesale as an authoritative voice. In other words, Freud may be right occasionally but you're nuts if you think it just because he says so. That's critical thinking 101. I'm sure George Bush is occasionally right but I wouldn't take his word for anything either. Hell even you're right occasionally, your magnificent work regarding the Duke Lacrosse case nonwithstanding but I wouldn't believe anything you say without some significant backup.

I don't think much of authority figures, period. Reality is not determined by authority be it feminist, Freudian or the Catholic church. Reality is determined by examining empirical evidence and by comparing notes with others, not by quoting long-discredited quacks. Apparantly this is news to some people.

When you awake do you remember your dreams, those silly useless things?

Kevin Russell Cook

except Freud applied "penis envey" to women only and as I remember to uppity type women at that.

Jack

Sounds like psychobabble B.S. to me, 9/11 if
anything was probably about money, look at the
runaway spending trip they've been on, and
where 9/11 happened etc. It's about oil, and
about money, and also, also, people trying
to mess with our heads. Makes a great case
for the old energy independence. What's in
YOUR driveway? Hmmm....

Says research.  See Fisher and Greenberg for a review of that research.

Very well said.

"... odds are that you're a deluded twit who knows little about critical thinking."Do you feel this is an appropriate way to discuss things in the Cafe'?

Here's a Freud reference from a recent social science work- Social Dominance, by Sidanius and Prato- that I find quite illuminating:

"Although it is hard for many of us to appreciate this now, Freud introduced a revolutionary new way of understanding human behavior. Instead of regarding human choice and decision making as primarily the result of rational and logical deliberation, Freud suggested that human behavior is largely driven by subconscious and non rational drives, and is then rationalized and justified in terms of logic and reason. Adopting this view, many scholars both inside and outside the psychodynamic revolution, began to think of peoples' ethnic, racial, and national stereotypes a manifestations of their motivations, rather than as rationally held political philosophies."

Freud is not really the topic, but the point about acknowledging the irrational is germane to scientific modeling, not cultural insights, which were much sounder than the nascent psychology. You are quite right that art and literature, as well as religion, assumed an unconscious.

But with physical science enjoying accurate models, psychology needed something to start with. That was the revolution; having a model to test, and eventually replace.

So hold the sneering.

Sorry, but you're still vastly over stating Freud's contribution and those comments aren't really very accurate.

One problem is your implied claim that science presumed all human endeavors to be rational, or that Freud made a contribution to science as a scientist. Not so, and kind of silly really.

Science is by definition the study of those things which can be empirically tested, including theorists working towards proofs. Considering that the empirical workings of the human brain have been a "black box" for most of our history, and still are for the most part, it's been largely outside the realm of science, and instead the purview of art.

That is however not at all to say science presumed human endeavors to be wholly rational or was ignorant of the arts prior to Freud's fictional play at science. Nor does that mean someone shrugging in confusion and suggesting "perhaps that's irrational" is science either. That has more in common with religious creationism and so-called irreducible complexity.

As paradoxical as it may superficially sound, a scientifically sound theory of irrationality must itself still be rationally scientific.

For one example out of many, Darwinian evolution implicitly but unavoidably supports the notion of instinctual desires occurring beneath the intellectual level as inherited from ancestors, as opposed to demons which can be exorcised, which is a primary reason fundamentalists find it so uncomfortable.

The skeletons in Freud's closet bear more similarity to the demons under fundamentalist's beds, than to the monkeys in Darwin's tree.

Certainly the Greek philosophers and folklore which Freud drew heavily on, plagiarized in many regards, are well aware of human irrationality and their Pantheon of deities a catalog of humanity, including many half-animal forms. And such insights are universal throughout the world's cultures.

None of which is to say Freud improved upon them, or understood them particularly well while plagiarizing them and pretending at science.

btw, Ducat claimed Freud thought of himself as a plague of discomforting thoughts we'd all rather not face. What a master of self promotion.

In fact, it seems that throughout human history, the most discomforting and sensational explanations are exactly those we are most drawn to. We've always been fond of spirits, demons, possession, satyrs, and mad gods.

I wonder if Freud might have been "projecting" the discomfort he felt with his Plagiarism and charlatan ways should they come tumbling from his closet for all to see.

Freud was as a fraud. A performance artist playing at science, he developed a repertoire of pseudo scientific prose, which was unfortunately adopted by popular culture in an era when ordinary people sought to rename the ancient myths wit new and improved "scientific" sounding names.

(btw, you're also conflating Freud with the issue of recent economic theories such as rational self interest vs irrational actors, which is a whole nother beast.)

dogs demonstrated they could make behavioral psychologists ring bells when the canids sent telepathic messages that they were considering salivating.

You're overlooking the more elegant explanation.

The bell is shaped as a vagina and uterus, and the ringer is clearly a penis. Upon hearing the bell, the repressed lupine sexual urges, stemming from modern neurosis as a result of domestication, produce salacious salivation behavior.

Which is easily proved by observing dogs in the wild, who do not salivate at the ringing of a bell.

Q.E.D.

Having been through formal analysis, I can testify it did improve my ability to remember dreams, as well as every detail of the textured ceiling over the couch.

But it takes a skilled professional to properly interpret the ceiling.

I thought it was rather funny. Freud's value as an authority is at best dubious as he's known for some rather goofy theories particularly regarding sexual repression in various forms as answers to most everything. Which seems rather relevant to the discussion, Ducat and Faludi.

I've been meaning to post something about New College where Ducat teaches. Below is an article about it.

Progressive New College in academic, fiscal mess

New College of California, a private liberal arts school in San Francisco, is at risk of losing its accreditation for academic and ethical violations.

School administrators, under pressure from faculty, students and the Western Association of Schools & Colleges, announced that they will form a committee to search for a new president and will reconfigure the board of directors.

New College, which emphasizes activism and social change, was put on probation July 5 by the association for violations found by the association's commission. The commission's investigators found that:

-- Students had enrolled in and attended classes long before they were admitted to the college;

-- Grades of incomplete were changed to letter grades by persons not assigned to teach the courses;

-- Independent study was used improperly.

-- The college had insufficient financial reserves, controls and budgeting.

The association, which accredits colleges and universities in California, Hawaii and the western U.S. territories, will conduct an inspection this fall. Based on that inspection, the association could choose to pull the school's accreditation as soon as May. Without accreditation, the school could not give federal and state financial aid to its students. Although the college could remain open, degrees earned by its students would lose value.

Here's the link to New College Allumi page, for some perspective on the institution and curricula.

http://www.newcollege.edu/alumni/

Some examples (names redacted):

P.D. 2002 MA Psychology (Feminist Clinical emphasis)
Area of Practice: Canine Behavioral Consultant and Professional Dog Trainer

SA aka AL 1992 MA Psychology (Clinical)
Currently, I have no employment. I've gotten divorced and am learning to live on my own. My last name is mine again: S. I live in North Beach with my dog and parrot (yes, she, the bird does bark). I'm a member of the Association of University Women. My education at NCOC was liberating and a high point of my life. I hope to have my website up this year. New Tales of Our City is a literary site - I'd appreciate any of your stories or tales about this wonderful city and its people.

HK 1993 MA Psychology (Feminist emphasis)
As of May 2005: I completed a PhD in clinical and community psychology at University of Illinois in 2003. I work at the Champaign Police Department, helping to guide and develop the Station Adjustment (juvenile court diversion) program and related services. I also have an adjunct zero-time professorship at UIUC, where I teach a graduate forensic assessment course and an undergraduate service-learning course. I hope to get my license and move back to the west coast in the next couple of years. I'm married (to a man as it turns out), and we are currently guardians for my 17-year-old niece. Areas of Practice: Research, program and policy development and clinical work focused on juvenile delinquency. Assessment and intervention with child/teen behavior problems in the context of family, school and community; juvenile justice policy analysis; juvenile diversion program development.

SS, Val 1991 MA Psychology(Feminist Emphasis)
I live and work in beautiful Humboldt County. I specialize in Relational Self Psychology and Art and Sand Tray Therapy.

GJ 2000 MA Psychology
I have worked in different clinical settings, currently I am a child custody evaluator/mediator for Family Court Services.

TJ 1993 MA Psychology
Our class was always on the verge of imploding, but afterwards I realized I got a great education in the Social-Clinical Graduate Psychology program. I was there from 1991 to 1993 and fortunate enough to get paid internship hours and my MFT license in 1996. I also had a terrific time as an intern at the NCOC Clinic. After that I spent 5 years employed by community mental health, establishing a school- based therapeutic program in the SF Public schools. I still do a few hours of work in the public sector, but mainly work in my Civic Center private practice, providing psychodynamic therapy to adults, adolescents and children. I appreciate the spirit of New College.

AM 2006 MA (Women's Spirituality) Humanities
MA is a graduate of the Woman's Spirituality at New College of California. Her background is in Catholicism, the Goddess revival tradition and South American shamanism. She is a mother, a teacher of sacred belly dance, a poet and an icon painter. She seeks to revive a sense of the divine feminine in the Catholic trinity and the iconography and prayer of Mary. Areas of Practice: Belly dance teacher, Goddess icon painter, poet.

BK 2005 MA Women's Spirituality
My experience at New College was transformational and empowering. Since completing my graduate work I have deepened my commitment to ending violence against all women through astute analysis, honest dialogue, out-of-the box solutions, and space for deep self and community healing. I am currently seeking to merge my experience in social justice work with my passion for the healing arts, creating alternative, inclusive environments where women and child survivors of violence can heal; a place where we can work to change the acceptability of violence against women in our communities-going all the way to the roots and the core. I also love poetry, walking in the woods, and all the folks that have supported me on my way. Area of Practice: Women and Social Justice Healing Arts (Yoga, Sound, BodyTalk, Reiki) Permaculture/Environmental Justice.

***

And so on. Well intentioned towards many a good cause to be sure, but...

But it takes a skilled professional to properly interpret the ceiling.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]