Hillary Clinton: A Different Kind of Democrat?
I half agree with Todd Gitlin's recent post on the unfair treatment of Hillary Clinton by some on the left -- it's not like she's a neo-con, after all.
Hillary Clinton is tough, smart, and resilient. She's so much better than anyone the Republicans will put up that it's not even worth discussing.
That being said, there are considerable differences between her and her two top rivals, particularly in the realm of foreign policy -- differences that are worth discussing.
Her positive qualities notwithstanding, Hillary Clinton should not be spared some tough questioning during the primary process. Her suggestion that she voted for the Iraq War resolution on the assumption that it would strengthen the United States' hand in dealing with Saddam Hussein, then felt "lied to" when Bush used the resolution to pave the path to war, is simply not credible. Of course, no matter how much he apologizes now, Edwards voted for the war as well; and Obama wasn't in the Senate, so didn't have to vote on the resolution -- a better test of one's willingness to stick to their convictions in the face of immediate political pressure. And it remains to be seen whether Hillary's vote to label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization will strengthen the hand of the war party within the Bush administration.
It should also be noted that Clinton has partially redeemed herself on both the Iraq and Iran issues, first by being one of the few Senators to actually cast a vote against funding of the war, and second by endorsing Sen. Jim Webb's demand that the president consult Congress before taking military action against Iran. But the question of which side of the fence she's on, given her seemingly contradictory votes on these issues, is far from clear.
Along with Barack Obama, she has fallen into the "toughness" trap, suggesting that we should increase the armed forces by 80,000 or more without explaining what these new troops would be for: a long stay in Iraq? War against Iran? Or some new military occupation yet to be determined? If she has none of these options in mind -- which seems likely -- then the call for more troops seems like more of a political insurance policy against Republican attacks than a carefully considered strategic position.
Hillary Clinton has also been much more reticent about changing our Cold War posture on nuclear weapons. Obama, Edwards, and Bill Richardson have all called for the elimination of nuclear weapons, while Hillary has nodded at a few traditional arms control measures. Granted, this has hardly been a central issue in the Democratic primaries -- I'd love to see Obama, Edwards, and Richardson bring it up as often as possible in the debates -- but it represents a real policy difference.
As for whether she's cold, calculating, and driven solely by money and power, I'm with Todd. Give me a break! No one is going to go far in presidential politics without some of these qualities, and it is clear that they are far from a full representation of her character or her policy decisions.
So, I would say, those of us who think we can do better in a nominee should continue to raise issues about Hillary Clinton's foreign policy positions, but without demonizing her, and while recognizing that her record and posture on foreign policy issues overlaps in a number of significant ways with her top competitors for the Democratic nomination.












1. Big differences between HRC and Edwards on NAFTA and other trade issues.
2. My concern isn't that she's money-driven; my concern is that she is a corporatist sell-out. Look at Mark Penn's work, and remember that he's one of her chief advisors. Look at the lack of accomplishments during Bill Clinton's presidency. Look at who her major donors are. A HRC presidency will be, at very best, incrementalist, with large pay-outs to large business interests.
In short, when she's at the tipping point, she's for the big guy/gal, rather than the little guy/gal--and that's why she isn't worthy of the Democratic nomination
November 2, 2007 8:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Worth reading David Brooks today mocking the Democrats. In part, I just mean that if she can make anything he writes seem halfway plausible, she's not someone I'd admire. But more, as a portrait by him is necessarily really unfair, read it as a preview of the GOP spin and smear on whomever is nominated.
In that light, the lines on Edwards and Obama are predictable but, I think, ones we can handle. Yes, we know Edwards is a wealthy trial lawyer, but I think that limousine liberal line can be dealt with by someone this good at responding to it, even though I know the media and spin machine will keep pushing it. The Obama line that he's bland is going to stick, but it's it's also a fairly bland criticism to have to last out a campaign against a real person speaking.
But the Clinton criticism is, I think, going to be easier for them to keep using, including quotes in or out of context. I know she's popular in the polls and praised for responding effectively to criticism, but I just don't think she's half as safe a candidate as the Beltway thinks.
John
http://www.haberarts.com/
November 2, 2007 8:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another big difference is on Israel/Palestine. Unlike Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden and Dodd, Hillary's prescription for the Middle East is a set of demands on Palestinians, without mentioning anything Israel has to do. On this issue, she is to the right of the Bush administration and of most Members of Congress, including her fellow New Yorkers.
How significant is this? Not very, unless Israel/Palestine is one of your issues or if you view it as a kind of litmus test of a candidate's willingness to offend special interests,
November 2, 2007 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
WH: I went back and read Todd again (the post on Dowd style knife jobs and her obsession with what she sees as the Clinton character issue). As far as your post is concerned, you do well making your points. So, where’s the part on which you half disagree with Gitlin? (Was it the Socks stuff?) And,
If only she was a different style Democrat!
Kevin Russell Cook
November 2, 2007 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ,
Please let us know who is the best candidate on
on Israel/Palestine from your point of view?
Who has the biggest set of demands on Israel and the smallest set of demands on Palestinians?
Can you rank them?
What demands Edwards and Obama have on Israel?
November 2, 2007 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for one of the few articles I have read recently that isnt utterly crazy or needlessly personal and insulting. I too want Hillary tested hard by the primaries. I want to like Obama but he hasnt shown me toughness yet (meaning to toughness to take on what the Repubs will certainly throw at him). Someone said he demonstrated grace under pressure at the debate, which I thought was utterly nuts since he was under no pressure at all. And frankly, having listened now to her response on the immigration - license issue three times, I fail to see where she said different things. I thought her answer was crystal clear. She is not personally in favor of it from a national policy perspective but will let governors call their own shots on public safety. What is wrong with that? The fact that Edwards immediately accused her of saying two things, which she didnt, has left a bad taste in my mouth for Edwards. The media of course want nothing more than to tear down whomever the front runner is, but that seems to only apply to Hillary as I hear very little about how uniquely unqualified Giuliani is except from Biden (God Bless Biden). On the other hand Hillary had better be more adept at dealing with attacks since she will be attacked mercilessly if she is the nominee. Frankly, what appeals to me about her is she is tough, Machiavellian, shrewd, cunning and super smart: just the sort of person I want sitting across the table from Putin et al.
But eliminate all nuclear weapons? I dont see that happening ever. The fact is that they are here to stay, and the best control we have ever had over them is mutually assured destruction.
Finally, for those who think she is a corporatist sell out, I dont see it. What she and Bill do strongly believe in is that in our system sometimes you get 30% of the loaf, not 100%. Some people think that is selling out. I say that is representative democracy in action. I am frankly sick and damn tired of people drawing lines in the sand and refusing to find common ground and compromise. Thats exactly where we are on immigration and....so....we do nothing. Sometimes getting less than all you want seems like selling out, but it isnt. The sell out comes from those who refuse compromise and thereby lock us into complete inaction. The failure to tackle issues with bi-partisan compromise over the past 20 years is one of our most damning failures, in my opinion. Mind you I blame the Repubs far more than the Dems. But we had better find a way out of our perpetual gridlock or we are truly doomed.
November 2, 2007 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's very significant if one sees a just resolution to the I/P conflict as a key element in really fighting the "war on terror" and beginning to repair our relationships with the rest of the world.
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." ~~ Abraham Maslow
November 2, 2007 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Since the threshold for any female candidate is will she be tough enough it makes it encumbant on Clinton to show she is tough. The differences between Edwards, Obama and Clinton are so minimal and have to be worked on to be enlarged.
Edwards is presenting himself as a bit more of a populist, wil he stick to that emphasis in a general election, and is cut between not promising to remove troops from Iraq while saying he will, and not being sure if genocide should begin in Iraq. However, at hear the three leaders, indeed, the top six, Democrats are remarkably similar in their positions.
Hillary's approach to being attacked is to deflect the attack to a "we are in this together" against Bush and then to contrast Democrats with Bush. It lets her be tough, nonconfrontational with fellow Democrats while seeming to speak for all Democrats against Bush.
Daniel A. Greenbaum
November 2, 2007 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's certainly true that compromise is necessary at times in our system if it is going to function properly. It may even happen that compromise is often required. The problem is that when you agree up front to give half or three quarters of the loaf to the fat cats, then the 30% of the remainder of the loaf you end up with is a whole lot less than you would have gotten had the entire loaf been on the table. This isn't compromise, it's getting the shortest possible end of the stick.
That's the problem with Senator Clinton's "centrist" politics. If the Democrats capitulate in advance and concede to corporate interests voluntarily most of what ought to be on the table (as is the centrist approach), then the people who the centrists claim to be wanting to help aren't very well served at all. In fact, most of the time this approach leads to the average American getting screwed again by a system rotten to the core and kept that way as a result of this sort of tactic by Democrats.
To my mind, the corporate Democrat or "centrist" approach is tantamount to telling the people they should be grateful for what crumbs they get instead of wanting more from the table which they don't deserve in the first place. The corporate interests don't have to fight for their side to prevail when the centrists lead the charge. Democrats have to get back to representing the interests of the people instead of just the wealthy people and the corporations they own. That requires compromise at times, but it also requires that sometimes you stand and fight with the avaricious corporate interests that have kept wages static for 35+ years, stood in the way of national health insurance, improving education and protecting the environment.
I'm not for fighting for the sake of it or refusing to compromise at all times. What I want is a real Democrat to lead the nation. That would mean that necessary compromises would be made, but in return for those compromises the people actually get something tangible and worth having instead of getting just another raw deal and a shrug of the shoulders from centrists who claim is was "the best" deal they could get. And, at times, when reasonable compromise is not possible, the Democrats would stand up for and fight for the interests of regular people in this country even in the face of corporate opposition.
November 2, 2007 10:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look at the lack of accomplishments during Bill Clinton's presidency.
As to compare to ...?
A HRC presidency will be, at very best, incrementalist,
Great!!!
November 2, 2007 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe the grace under pressure remarks had to do with how the media built up the debate beforehand. How the media wanted him to come out swinging and he resisted that pressure and responded with much more measured responses as opposed to being pressured into an offensive attack. I found that exceptional given his standings in the polls have been the predicate for the pundits all clamoring for him to go on a ferocious attack of her. Had he done so I believe it would have backfired. Already the Clinton campaign is going on about her being a 'gender victim' I think that would be far worse had Barack been as strong as Edwards in highlighting the differences between them as candidates.
What I find wrong with this is that as President it does not provide a clear direction for the nation on immigration policy. After all, we are the United States of America and as such we need a national policy to move forward with the illegal immigration situation. Senator Clinton offered no position and to send it to the states is nothing more than a cop out and can be seen as a republican talking point as she is not advocating any position at the federal level and simply letting each state have it's own policy. Not a very Presidential position at all. Clearly, she is waffling and being indecisive. It is almost as if she is like King Solomon, always willing to split the baby in halve.
I see a candidate who has more corporate lobbyist money than the entire rest of the Presidential field. I see a candidate who says that lobbyist are Americans too which means that unless I as a citizen have the type of money lobbyist raised I do not have access to her. I see a candidate who has the most money from the defense industry and who is very hawkish and votes for amendments that provide cover for President Bush to take us to war. I see a candidate who has sold out to the healthcare industry as well. This to me means we as citizens will at best receive 10% of the loaf as the rest is already sold to corporate America.
My overall impression after this debate was that Senator Clinton is a person who makes decisions on politics, which means she will be an ineffectual leader as no one will be certain where she stands on issues.Consequently, that will stagnate us as a nation and in terms of global leadership. My thinking is we need someone who believes in America and beleives that we can bea strong, wise and prosperous nation based on the principles we were founded on. That is what Obama does he stands on principle and derives his power from taking principled stands. I believe it is this type of moral strength our country needs to take a new progressive course in foreign and domestic policy issues. I look forward to Obama being President. I am frighten at the idea of Hillary being President.
When Kerry ran I looked forward to his Presidency, I couldn't even believe that America would be stupid enough to elect GW Bush but they did, twice even. So, as much as I would hope that we have learned from the disasterous Presidency of Bush I also realize that it could happen again with Hillary being our President. A fate that is unthinkable but at this juncture probable as the American public is once againg being duped by the media and biased coverage of the candidates and where they stand on policies.
November 2, 2007 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Who is Senator Clinton to beleive that she gets to speak for all Democrats? Who died and made her Queen? Isn't this what Edwards call running in the general election mode and not the truth mode? Is it chutzpah, for Hillary to believe she does not have to contend in the primaries for the Democratic base before even one vote is cast? I find the toughness you describe to be primarily a means not to take a principled stand on any issues. After all, GWBush is not even running. So, we will not have to worry about what GWBush would do>
November 2, 2007 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is chutzpah and that is why it is so powerful. He avoids engaging in a fight with fellow Democrats and leads a fight against Bush. She is tough and conciliatory at the same time. This way she is not divisive but not milquetoast either.
The toughness is what is necessary because she is a woman. Fair or not, she has to show she will stand up to those who threaten America. This may or may not matter so much here but it matters around the country. It is one reason why she will never apologize for her Iraq or Iran vote. The moment she does she is toast.
Bush may not be running but all the Republicans are when they are not trying to channel Reagan are sticking to the Bush policies only more so. Any of the Democratic candidates are going to want to make the Republican candidate defend Bush day in and day out. Clinton demonstrates she can and will do that. Edwards will do that it is not obvious that Obama's personality will let him do it will enough vigor but I guess he will get the hang of it.
In a world of the two minute answer and the thirty second ad, thoughtful policy disucssions and fine distinctions on issues will carry you only so far.
Daniel A. Greenbaum
November 2, 2007 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to know how the author gets to say this:
"Her suggestion that she voted for the Iraq War resolution on the assumption that it would strengthen the United States' hand in dealing with Saddam Hussein, then felt "lied to" when Bush used the resolution to pave the path to war, is simply not credible."
Sorry?
Don't we all agree that Bush DID lie before taking us to war? Yes.
He DID say he wouldn't pull the inspectors out, etc. etc. etc.
I think Bush probably truly believed the weapons were there and the inspectors would find the wmd's and Saddam would refuse to give them up and we would go to war. I don't deny that.
But I seriously don't think too many Congresspeople thought at that time that he would actually pull the inspeactors, when it was made clear (Or so we thought. We don't torture either, right?) that that was one of the stipulations.
My husband was in a position to know that there were no WMD's in Iraq because of some of his military service during Gulf War I. He called Cheney a liar out loud when Cheney said he knew where the wmd's were on Aug. 22, 2002.
However, even he believed Bush would be caught at his game when the inspectors didn't find any wmd's.
We know a lot more about Bush now than we knew when that resolution was passed. For instance, I'm still shocked that Bush surged after The 2006 Thumpin'. Did anyone expect that spit in our face, even already knowing he's an asshole? In Oct 2001, 90% of America wanted to have a beer with him.
Before he invaded Iraq, I thought he was a buffoon. Now I think he's psychotic. There's a big difference in what we know now, and we've all had to go through a pretty sickening learning curve.
I just personally think all 2002 votes are past history (except for sending Bush and the neocons to the Hague for war crimes) and a part of the Cheney Machine, which many of us didn't realize has been lurking at the dials since coming to the WH as a young up and comer with Richard Nixon.
Otherwise, I'm fine with the rest of the piece.
November 2, 2007 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
As for whether she's cold, calculating, and driven solely by money and power, I'm with Todd. Give me a break! No one is going to go far in presidential politics without some of these qualities, and it is clear that they are far from a full representation of her character or her policy decisions.
I'm sorry, but I can't give you a break here, William. It is, of course, true that all politicians have a taste for power and skill in calculation. But in my opinion, these traits are much more pronounced in Clinton than her rivals. I would add to your list a penchant for secrecy and deception. I believe she is a deeply dishonest person, and therefore untrustworthy.
Even if I had a much higher estimation of Clinton's character, I think I know enough about her agenda, her closest friends and allies, and her political outlook on the world to rule her out of consideration. But in fact, I have a very low estimation of Hillary Clinton's character. And that's important to me. Judgments about the character of a politician are a crucial factor, because they tell us something about what we can expect from them in situations we cannot yet anticipate. A leader is not just a machine that takes policy positions and churns out policies. They are human beings that respond to complex and unpredictable contingencies, and urgent crises, with the instincts and fundamental motivations that drive them in everything else they do.
Consider this: prior to the 2000 election, Bush presented some very full statements of his official foreign policy position - the so-called "Distinctly American Internationalism." We also had a few personal and anecdotal observations of Bush, from longtime associates, not covered very well in the media, that told us he was a cruel, stubborn and thoughtless son of a bitch.
Now which of these pieces of information turned out to be more relevant to Bush's foreign and domestic response to the challenge of 9/11? I would say the second. The first was just policy wonk boilerplate, half of which went right out the window as soon as the first plane hit the towers.
I'm sorry that Clinton's many supporters and admirers are offended by this "demonization". You'll have to forgive me, but obviously from my own perspective my assessment is correct, and is therefore not idle demonization, but a rational reluctance to hand over power to a very dangerous person.
I guess we Clinton dislikers and the Clinton admirers will have to just agree to disagree. When I offer my opinion, the Clinton supporters usually just respond with variations on "Stop seeing those things!" "Stop talking about that stuff!" "Why are you so mean to Hillary?!" "Those personality traits are irrelevant!" Well Clinton has been around for a long time. Some of us feel like we know her and know what she is. And I've explained why I don't think the personality issues are irrelevant at all.
November 2, 2007 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
if one sees a just resolution to the I/P conflict as a key element in really fighting the "war on terror" and beginning to repair our relationships with the rest of the world. he is delusional.
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_spine/default.aspx
November 2, 2007 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come on, Daniel. Do you really think most of the country believes as you do? Here's some numbers:
And here's some info from a recent article which cites a USAToday poll:
This leads me to ask with whom exactly would Hillary be "toast" if she took a principled stand and admitted her vote was wrong? It doesn't appear to be the American people.
“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung
November 2, 2007 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Comparing HRC to Edwards makes a lot of sense. They do differ on several important issues and I don't mean money from lobbyists (both take it).
As for comparing HRC to Obama it makes limited sense to me. A candidate, i.e. Obama, who believes that he can reach out to the fascists of the Republican party is not a serious candidate.
November 2, 2007 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
But in fact, I have a very low estimation of Hillary Clinton's character.
Why?
What do you know about her vs Edwards or Obama?
BTW, I knew that Bush would be disaster not on based on his character but based on his record of accomplishments (Zero). So, we don't really need to look for character or judgment or abilities, in a 50+ year old politician, we just need to look at the end result, record of accomplishments.
November 2, 2007 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Hillary's prescription for the Middle East is a set of demands on Palestinians, without mentioning anything Israel has to do. On this issue, she is to the right of the Bush administration"
I wonder if it even matters where Hillary is if the following report from Arutz Sheva proves to be accurate:
21 Cheshvan 5768, November 2, '07
"Olmert 'Beating around Bush'
(IsraelNN.com) Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has told aides and foreign officials he intends to help American President George W. Bush meet his deadline for a new Arab state within Israel's current borders by the fall of 2008. President Bush has set the deadline, which coincides with the Presidential elections, almost three months before he leaves office.
Prime Minister Olmert has reasoned that Israel is better off with an agreement with the PA while President Bush is in office rather than have to deal with a different administration that may not be committed to Israel's retaining large population centers in Judea and Samaria."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/135750
This is a tall order for Olmert and the puppets in the PA. Can they work out some sort of deal within a year that will satisfy anyone? Given the reluctance of the Israeli government to commit to anything resembling "timetables", I can't see how Abbas or even Fayyad could sign on to an agreement timed to coincide with the presidential elections.
I am also somewhat puzzled at the alleged timing of this deadline. What difference could it make in the elections? It's not as if this issue is a big deal for most American voters and given that the GOP candidates aren't on board with Bush at this point, where's the benefit for the party?
Oh well, it's early yet and if the PA Pinochets can be induced to sign on to an agreement that creates a Palestinian "state" that remains under Israeli control, the GOP presidential candidate could be persuaded to endorse the grand bargain.The American media and voters won't care about the difficult details as long as they are presented with photo ops that make them feel good.
It is certainly very gracious of PM Olmert to devote his efforts to helping out his buddy Bush and the Republicans just in time for our elections next November.
November 2, 2007 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
first by being one of the few Senators to actually cast a vote against funding of the war...
Why didn't she get others to follower her? Dennis Kucinich was able to do much better and Hillary, being Hillary, should have gotten every democrat on board-- if she was worth her salt. Some would call this a "safe no vote."
To boldly go...
November 2, 2007 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
So when is she going to start standing up against the neocons? Seems to me they are the major global threat to Americans.
November 2, 2007 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Davai,
I don't know where you're from, but Hillary Clinton has been very much in the public eye here since 1992. She was a very active member of the Clinton administration. She made many public statements and gave frequent interviews. Mountains have been written about her, in the press and in books. She was involved, in one way or another, in many of the administration's major events, initiatives and scandals, and was by most accounts a shrewd operator and her husband's most important and influential advisor. Volumes of reporting have been produced on her behind the scenes activities and machinations. She has also been a very high profile senator from our second biggest state. She has made numerous high-profile speeches, and there has again been tons of reporting on both her political and personal life. She has been everywhere for 15 years. We all know her pretty well. Some Americans like what they see. I don't.
November 2, 2007 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Particularly is she essentially wraps up the nomination on 1/3 in Iowa. Americans will have 10 full months to remember why had pretty much had their stomachs full of Clintons in 2000. I'm not at all convinced Americans really want to go there again.
November 2, 2007 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton wants us to believe she has the experience to be President because of her years in the White House as Co-President. Well, that wasn't enough experience to keep her from making the mistake that Feingold, Wellstone, etc. did not make on the most enormous American foreign policy disaster since, well, since I don't know when.
I won't RUSH to VOTE.
November 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I personnaly think the 2002 votes are past history EXCEPT as the vote informs us on our current crop of candidates. I am looking for judgment. I am looking for due diligence, particularly when it comes to war.
Hillary was quick to accuse a "vast right wing conspiracy" when Bill was accused of an affar. Yet, when she is considering whether or not Bush, the leader of this conspiracy, should have the authority to put this nation at war, she trusted him? There is simply something wrong with this--it makes no logical sense.
I am also appalled that such an important decision was not preceded by fact-finding--like reading the classified NIE. Anyone who has spent any time around bureaucracy KNOWS that a written document is full of CYAs and contrary opinions. The NIE was full of that. Hillary, along with others who need to be placed into retirement by voters, didn't bother to read it.
Neither of these actions represent the type of due diligence and judgment that I expect of the next Prez. Hillary failed.
November 2, 2007 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The reason she refuses to admit the error of her vote on Iraq is not that she would be 'toast'. It is because she has a patholgical inability to admit that she is wrong. It is a common flaw. That it is common, makes it no more forgiveable in my eyes.
November 2, 2007 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
She's so much better than anyone the Republicans will put up that it's not even worth discussing.
On what accomplishments in her life to date do you base such a statement?
November 2, 2007 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's rather an ironic juxtaposition, for those of us who tend to think the Palestinian issue is merely exploited by Arab leaders who actually could care less what happens to them, and given far too much attention by American foreign policymakers.
November 2, 2007 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't agree about scandals but I agree with rest of Don's comment:
November 2, 2007 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been here.
When you know a person that well, you'll find that that person has flaws. So what?
Overall she is OK. She is not going to screw up country. I don't know anything about Obama or Edwards to have such level of confidence.
I also think that Romney will not screw up the country.
I have doubts about the rest of Republicans.
First, do no harm
November 2, 2007 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's not how Brad DeLong saw it:
As my most recent blog entry says, I know I don't really know what the answer is-- Hillary, hypercompetent brains behind Bill, or Hillary, hyperentitled demonstration of the Peter Principle. None of us know. That's the issue.
November 2, 2007 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes Clintons did screw up a lot of things first 2 years in spite of being so smart.
However 15 years is lot. Smart people do learn from mistakes.
This is why I so much against Obamas who have even less experience than Clintons had in 1992
November 2, 2007 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"for those of us who tend to think the Palestinian issue is merely exploited by Arab leaders who actually could care less what happens to them, and given far too much attention by American foreign policymakers."
While it's true that most Arab leaders and Osama don't actually give a whit about what happens to Palestinians wherever they happen to be, their populations (most Lebanese excepted) and much of the civilized and not-so-civilized world does "care".
IMO, burying one's head ever more deeply in the sand in order to avoid that reality tends to deprive the brain of an element essential for the optimum cognition required to deal with I/P issues.
November 2, 2007 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, I have a question to end my evening with: for those of you who really abhor or fear or actively dislike Sen. Clinton, what will you do if she attains the nomination?
I'm really curious where the discussion will go: Nader? Unity 08? Surely not Rudi.
November 2, 2007 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
and much of the civilized and not-so civilized world does "care"
Yes, everything that has to do with Jews facinates much of the civilized and not-so civilized world for the better or for worse.
However, I doubt that "resolving", assuming it's posible, I/P conflict would make much difference
in the civilized and not-so civilized world.
But, please make no mistake, NOBODY really cares about Palestinians. It's not about them, it's about Jews.
November 2, 2007 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
"redeemed herself"??? because she supports the Webb amendment? please. pathetic. really, "it remains to be seen" whether voting to tie Iran's military to attacks on our troops in Iraq is nowhere near good enough of a metric. there is no "redeeming" oneself from voting 'yes' to go to war with Iraq. it is beyond conceivable that subsequently voting for this Iran amendment could possibly be viewed as OK. how could she not see that Bush would simply read the amendment as an affirmation of whatever he's already got going on in his head. a subsequent amendment scolding him that he doesn't have authority to declare war on Iran without Congress - which already gave him the leeway with Hill's original votes (authorizing war in Iraq and tying Iran to our list of 'enemies' there) means jack crap, and she knows it. why don't the rest of you?
November 2, 2007 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But, please make no mistake, NOBODY really cares about Palestinians. It's not about them, it's about Jews."
Really, Mr Secret Weapon Man?
Does that include the government of Brazil that has rescued some of the Palestinians stuck on Iraq's border and is offering to sponsor them, educate them, teach them Portuguese and proudly promises them their full rights as equal citizens of Brazil? The Brazilian government shames the world and provides an example by telling these lucky Palestinian refugees they are most welcome to make Brazil their home if they choose to do so.
Is that proof that the Brazilians are also a bunch of sneaky anti-semites who are so wily that they have concocted this elaborate and well-designed plan in order to make Jews look bad or something?
Damn. You just never know, do you?
November 2, 2007 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, they helped 36 Palestinians. Good for them.
November 2, 2007 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Davai,
Your reasoning seems askew.
Someone having lots of years to make mistakes to learn from is not the type of experience needed. The preference is for an individual with good judgment whose experience is based on being right. That person goes forward is far greater assurance and leadership capability than an individual who is learning from mistakes constantly.
I grant you that Hillary is intellectual smart, but as that paragraphed detailed she lacks the judgment to know when she is over her head and she compensates for that weakness by blustering and using power to force her way forward, carrying all in her tow reluctantly as they lack the power to stop her. Notice in the paragraph it says she lacked not just managerial and administrative skills but she was out of her depth on the subject matter and she had no political skills.
This is the same Hillary we see today. Nothing has changed. Her being smart means that she can run rings around the opposing views but her position is nevertheless ineffectual. We know this by looking at how she cast her votes for war and how she has become the largest recipient of health care contributions in the Senate. This is not a person who has learned from their mistakes at all.
Again, there are people who do not need years of 'experience' as they have the judgment to get it right the first time. After all, experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
November 3, 2007 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Hillary wins the nomination, the Democrats lose the WH.
There will be a President Hucklebee or President Romney.
A majority of the voting public will not vote for Hillary. Almost half of the Democratic base alone says they will never vote for Hillary.
November 3, 2007 3:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
there hasn't been a president in more than fifty years who has performed as expected. why should Hillary be any different?
she will probably do far better than her rabid detractors declare with their screams and shouts. anybody who says that they will vote for Rudy or Mitt if Hillary's the nominee are Republicans, clumsily muddying the waters, and nothing more.
i'm not a Hillary fan. i actually think that John Edwards is presently the best candidate from either party. he's not Our Savior, no, and neither are any of the rest of them. it's amazing how many people have to declare somebody as being more worthy than the other candidates actually are or even could be. it's ridiculous. America is not a nation of religious idealists. We are ruthless, we lie, we're selfish, we pick on the weak, we are pompous hypocrites, our record of altruism is spotty at best, and at the moment we, as a nation, have sunk to historical depths, morally. the closest we've come to having a good person as president in the last fifty years is Jimmy Carter and he was run out of town after one term.
i'm a Democrat, warts and all, and i'll vote for Hillary a year from now. i'm not going to stay at home that day, and i certainly won't vote for Rudy the lying fascist, or Mitt the clueless chameleon. one can only hope, with some degree of possibility, that Hillary as president will be an improvement over the current regime. it's a shamefully low standard to be using, but these are the times in which we live.
November 3, 2007 4:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
But that ignores a couple things, puissant. First, when faced with the combo of Clinton vs. Giuliani or Clinton vs. Romney, both women and those under 30 will, I predict, flock to Clinton, if for no other reason than to be able to say they voted for the first woman. Men, I don't know - I used to be msarried and I have a brother and I never have figured out how men think.
I think there are an awful lot of voters who wouldn't be caught dead voting for Giuliani - he's too much like Bush without the Ivy League polish. And with Romney, his being Morman will, in the end, count.
It's easy to say, "I'll never vote for ..." until faced with the alternatives. Sen Clinton would not be consistently ahead in the polls if the I'll-never-vote-for-her meme were true. And look at who doesn't get polled: anyone with a cell phone, anyone who isn't home, etc.
November 3, 2007 6:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
it's not like she's a neo-con, after all.
She just plays one on TV.
November 3, 2007 6:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Finally, for those who think she is a corporatist sell out, I dont see it.
Hillary's vote after vote for the "military industrial complex," for one. Her tenure on the Walmart board, secondly. And shipping our industries to China thirdly-- her and bill literally made Walmart's wet dream come true!
ADDED: I should have also noted that Hillary and Bill never attained labor and environmental clauses on their free trade agreements-- the sort of thing that corporate america wants. They might blame the republicans but, regardless, it's a stain on their legacy since at the very least, they fell short.
To boldly go...
November 3, 2007 8:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
I continue to watch with fascination how presidential candidates respond to challenges and criticisms. They can all, especially apparent frontrunner Clinton, expect criticism that is unfair, exaggerated, and even insulting.
For example, the current charge that Clinton is whining and playing the gender card. It’s not true (she’s merely stated that her past has prepared her for all kinds of attacks and assaults), but how she responds will be revealing.
Another example. William Hartung writes, “Her suggestion that she voted for the Iraq War resolution on the assumption that it would strengthen the United States' hand in dealing with Saddam Hussein, then felt "lied to" when Bush used the resolution to pave the path to war, is simply not credible.” Plenty of people agree with that and she damn well needs to respond effectively.
For my part, I think Hartung’s statement is over simplification. Clinton, along with some of her contemporaries like John Kerry, wrote and delivered a contemporaneous speech when she voted for the AUMF. They succeeded in what they, and the Democratic leadership, claimed was their primary purpose. Language was included that forced Bush to go to the UN and get inspectors back on the ground in Iraq among other things. I love the fact that happened, the inspectors found nothing, took directions from the Bush people on where to look, found nothing. I wonder what would have happened otherwise. Would Bush have been better able to hide his lies about Iraq’s WMD threat? Don’t know.
I didn’t like it when the Democrats cut the deal with Bush and approved the AUMF. But I would never say that they weren’t credible. I’ve read the AUMF and the contemporaneous speeches several times. Their arguments were credible and defensible. Bush was going to invade anyway. I opposed, but I could have been wrong.
I continue to lay 99.99 percent of the blame on George Bush. The Democrats were trying to slow him down. The Democrats claimed Bush needed to get an additional and specific UN resolution to allow invasion. That resolution would not have happened.
So, Clinton, Edwards and the rest do have credibility with me. Like everybody else, I will judge how well they react and explain themselves. But I do not blame them for the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That’s ridiculous. That’s rewriting history and, in my opinion, rewriting the AUMF itself.
BTW, I favor outlawing AUMF’s. Such resolutions can too easily be abused by the party in power, in this case the Republicans. And they give the President too much power. There should be a specific declaration of war vote by Congress.
November 3, 2007 8:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is the same Hillary we see today
I don't.
Again, there are people who do not need years of 'experience' as they have the judgment to get it right the first time.
Maybe such people exist, but I doubt.
In any case, it's very hard to know in advance who is capable of to gettting it right the first time unless such people demonstrate how they have used their judgment to achieve something.
November 3, 2007 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
For example, the current charge that Clinton is whining and playing the gender card.
Of course, she is playing the gender card.
Obama is playing race card, Edwards is playing cancer card, Rudy is playing 911 card, McCain is plaing hero card.
Biden and Dodd have no cards to play, so they have no chances.
November 3, 2007 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but it was a conspiracy as we know now.
November 3, 2007 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
To me, the war issue trumps all others because I figure war is going to make all other priorities impossible. I won't vote for war with Iran. I won't vote for staying in Iraq. Therefore, I can't vote for Hillary. The fact that I have no other choice only demonstrates to me how dire our problem is but I don't see how that changes until enough people stop voting to enable two war parties. As it is, no other alternatives can even be voiced you are either for war with Iran in 5 minutes or war with Iran in 10 minutes. You might as well be living under martial law for all the non-martial choices there are on your ballot.
November 3, 2007 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
The fact that I have no other choice
You have choice. You can vote for your favorite candidate in Republican or Democratic primaries
or you can run yourself. If your candidate lose, it means that American people don't support you and your favorite candidate ideas.
November 3, 2007 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
She's so much better than anyone the Republicans will put up that it's not even worth discussing.
On what accomplishments in her life to date do you base such a statement
Lady Hawk's motto: Me and Bill are stronger than dirt.
Best, Terry
November 3, 2007 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
The majority of congressional Democrats voted nay on the AUMF. Substitute "minority of Democrats" everywhere you put "Democrats" and then reread your assertions.
The majority of Democrats simply did NOT approve of Bush's adventure in Iraq. Not ever.
This is a primary and Democratic activists--like myself--simply do not ever want to support an outlier candidate who went against the wishes of the party. How clear does this have to be?
November 3, 2007 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you mean, for example, a principled Democrat? A progressive Democrat? A Democratic Democrat?
Yeah, if only.
November 3, 2007 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear esmense,
No sensible person will argue with the struggle women have to face even now in a career.
One of my sisters is somewhat older than Hillary and could not have made it on her husband's hook as Hillary plans to do. That sister is the only one that never married. She currently has plans to journey to Rwanda to see gorillas, perhaps soon to be extinct, in nature. she has only worked with them in zoos. Her career has involved many paths, including being a geologist. I think it would be hard to find any professional field more male-dominated than that for obvious reasons.
Mighty fine if you wish to vote for Lady Hawk because you think she is so strong but I think you are fooling yourself if you think the election of Mrs. Bill Clinton will be a proud milestone for women in their struggle to be on a par with men.
I would personally regard it as a step backward for women but then I am a man.
BTW I hear African-Americans have had to struggle some too.
My favorite candidate is neither because I am a peaceable sort and don't give a damn whether a candidate is a woman or African-American. I do care whether our young men and women as well as citizens of other countries are killed by warmongering idiots.
JMO.
Best, Terry
November 3, 2007 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a woman Hillary's age and I think it is absurd to think any woman, no matter how smart and applauded by teachers, peers and parents, who entered adulthood in the mid-60s was cold-bloodly calculating a path to power and riches through politics and public service. Such a path, most especially for a woman, simply did not exist.
As a generation we, even the brightest, most advantaged and most ambitious of us, were raised to be good, not successful. To do good and serve -- our families, our communities -- not to lead. If, as a woman, you really were cold and calculating, you set your sights on an already powerful and established husband -- not a law degree and work involving the rights and welfare of children. If you wanted wealth, your best, and for the most part only, bet was to marry wealth. You certainly didn't risk your future on a poor boy with talent -- even if you believed, no matter how improbably, that some day he would be president. (It hadn't been that many years since Truman, remember, left the presidency almost destitute.)
I know its difficult for those, even other women, born as little as 10 or 15 years later to fully understand this. To understand the magnitude of difference between the lives women of our generation were prepared for and the lives we, in the face of rapidly and drastically changing realities, had to eventually learn, with very little guidance from the past, to prepare ourselves for. Between the traditional privileges our parents generation -- including an earlier generation of feminists -- presumed would be ours automatically, and the new responsibilities, that necessitated we demand new opportunities, that they and we never imagined.
When I look at Hillary's rise, I don't see a straight and calculated shot -- I see the zigs and zags, the conflict of priorities, the awakening to new possibilities, the assumption of greater and greater responsibility, the growing willingness to ask, more and more directly, not for the relatively easy to obtain, traditional benefits of male approval, but for much harder to earn actual respect and authority, that is in fact typical of the most successful women of my generation.
This doesn't mean that she is my choice for President. But it does mean that I believe most of the speculative blather about her character is pure BS.
Also, as to the silliness about Hillary or other successful woman as "man-haters" etc., I'd add this -- no woman working in mostly male arenas who doesn't genuinely like and respect men has any hope of getting very far. Any woman in my generation who has achieved any success in business, law or public life, has had to do it with the support and encouragement of male collegues, mentors and partners. And she had to earn that support by earning their respect -- with demonstrated honesty, competence and ability.
People who suggest otherwise not only make sexist assumptions about women, they also make sexist assumptions about men -- denigrating their sense of fair play and justice, as well as their committment to and respect for real competence and achievement.
November 3, 2007 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm almost Hillary's age and I have to agree with you. Hillary was a privileged gal who went to Wellesley and married a guy from Harvard. She's more wedded to the family "business" than she is to her husband, but what is new under the sun in that?
November 3, 2007 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
She or he would lose General election in 48 states.
November 3, 2007 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Terry --
If you think my post had anything to do with "struggle" or victimization you are reading things into it that simply aren't there.
I'm not saying that Clinton is a victim. I'm simply saying that the kind of cold, long-term calculation she is constantly accused of is unlikely for a woman born into a generation of women that has, for the most part, had to rise to the occasion and make it up as we went along. The conditions on which such calculations could be based simply didn't exist, and weren't foreseeable, when Hillary entered adulthood.
Far from seeing my generation of women as victims, I see us as path-makers. We haven't done everything perfectly, but we have stepped up to the plate, accepted unexpected new responsibilities, dealt with a huge amount of change. We asked for more opportunities, and we've used those opportunities to make substantial contributions to the economy, the welfare of our families, and the benefit of our communities.
As for your sister, I'm sure she only proves my point that it is foolish and insulting to suggest that sucessful women, especially women who succeed in male-dominated fields, are "man-haters."
November 3, 2007 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, this is likely true.
It will be much more satisfying to simply lose it in, say, Ohio, huh?
November 3, 2007 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's hard to say how principled progressive Democrat would affect congressional elections
November 3, 2007 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mr. Hartung,
Before the war started, in November of 2002, Bill Clinton gave a speech to a convention of Britain's Labour Party that was intended to, and I believe did, bolster support for Tony Blair and his support for Bush and US policy toward Iraq. It was broadcast on C-Span. It was an extremely eloquent speech, and, if you can research and read it, I think it goes a long way to demonstrating the context in which Hillary cast her vote. I think both Clintons viewed Iraq in the context of his efforts in Bosnia, that they presumed too much good faith and competence on the part of the Bush administration, and I think they did, as the Republicans remind us over and over again, believe Saddam most probably had or was seeking weapons of mass destruction.
As I said, the speech is extremely eloquent. He almost had me convinced.
I'm going to quote some of the most pertinent parts, but I think it is worth reading in its entirety. You can find it at http://www.clintonfoundation.org/index.htm
November 3, 2007 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a lot of concern about Hillary Clinton's centrist impulses. Based on policy, my candidate of choice had been, until the last debate, John Edwards.
But both Edwards and Obama mis-stepped when they rose to the bait and obediently responded to the media's desire to see them beat up on Hillary rather than make a bold, courageous argument for and defense of progressive politics, taking the fight to George Bush, or, giving us any indication of how they will repair the damage he has done.
In doing so they looked weak and craven. They didn't harm Hillary in any way that will benefit them in the primary -- but, by using the usual phony character issues with which every and any Democratic candidate can expect to be attacked, they gave them legitimacy and did harm her in ways that will hurt her in the general election if she does end up being the nominee. How can Democrats defend her from the expected Republican character attacks when so many of them are on the record as agreeing with them?
The debate left me feeling I no longer have any candidate in this race -- and convinced that, no matter how favorable the conditions appear, the Democrats are on their way to blowing it again.
If either of these guys end up with the nomination, they will, of course, be subjected to the same litany of character accusations that every Democrat can expect -- inauthentic, pandering, flip flopping, dishonest, elitist, out of touch, calculating, insincere, etc., etc., etc.
When will these Democratic idiots start to understand that those accusations don't have anything to do with any Democrat's real character. That they don't safeguard themselves from such media assessments by agreeing with the media about their Democratic competitors. And, most important, that by legitimizing such attacks against one Democrat, they legitimize them against all.
The fact is that those assessments have more to do with the media's assessment of Democratic constiuents than with any particular actions of the politicians themselves. That's why you hear the same things said about every Democratic presidential candidate, no matter how different they really are from each other.
The media sees the Democratic base much as Republicans do -- as made up of foolish, unsophisticated women, the feckless poor, minorities, privileged but naïve youths embracing passing political fancies, elitist academics, narrowly self-interested feminists and gays,low level bureaucrats, and, to top it all off, an anachronistic labor movement that has refused to accept the need for, and inevitability of, its own extinction.
In other words, a significant number of media players, at all levels, “mainstream” as well as conservative, don’t see most Democratic voters, their issues and interests, as legitimately deserving of political representation (or, at least, not as deserving as the more socially and economically powerful constituencies that make up the Republican “base”). That’s why they almost always see and characterize political appeals to those constituencies as “pandering” and characterize the politicians who make those appeals, time and time again, as “inauthentic.” When Democrats win with appeals to those constituencies (as Clinton did in ’92), they are seen as less honest, and their possession of political office is seen as less “legitimate,” than those who appeal to and represent much more powerful constituencies.
Democrats are always presumed to be trying to fool people because their constituencies are always seen as foolish.
Yet, no matter how much actual pandering Republicans do – in terms of unrealistic tax policy, break the bank no bid contracts and subsidies, deregulation that puts small investors, consumers, workers at risk, etc. -- you never see the media demand a “Sister Souljah ” confrontation between a Republican politician and any part of their base. Nor do you see the media demand that Republican politicians attack the truthfulness, character and "authenticity" of fellow Republicans. No matter how dishonest, and inauthentic, in fact, those Republican candidates actually are.
If Democratic candidates want to be successful, they are going to have to stop thinking they can influence this media narrative, stop rising to the bait when the media demands they support that narrative against another Democratic candidate, and start courageously and respectfully arguing FOR the constituencies that look to them for representation.
November 3, 2007 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not saying that Clinton is a victim. I'm simply saying that the kind of cold, long-term calculation she is constantly accused of is unlikely for a woman born into a generation of women that has, for the most part, had to rise to the occasion and make it up as we went along.
No argument at all with your general thesis.
I have been witness to the struggle women have had to be accepted as professionals and being told to go home to care for their children. If they had no children the usual for a successful woman was word that she slept her way to the top.
Times are a'changing. That is very good.
Best, Terry
November 4, 2007 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think both Clintons viewed Iraq in the context of his efforts in Bosnia, that they presumed too much good faith and competence on the part of the Bush administration, and I think they did, as the Republicans remind us over and over again, believe Saddam most probably had or was seeking weapons of mass destruction.
See this is one of the big problems with HillandBill having a co-presidency. They will see things through a 90s prism and the world has changed completely. Now, what we know for certain at the time of this vote in the Senate is that Hillary failed to read the NIE. You suggest here that is because she relied on Bill's experience. That is very troublesome, what it means is she relied on that dated perspective rather than make a decision based on am analysis of the current facts. Hillary, lacks good judgment. Good judgment would have meant that she paid attention to the fact that the majority of Democrats in the Congress voted against the AUMF. That the chair of the Armed Svcs, cmte Carl Levin as well as the chair of the Intelligence cmte, Bob Graham both voted no.
So, if we are to beleive your supposition we will continue to see more foreign policy disasters based on a nostalgic view of how the world was when Bill was in office. American cannot afford the luxury of such nostalgia.
It is very disconcerting that Hillary lacks the fundamental ability to make good decisions she is simply too political, she does not even go with the facts of the situation only the politics. Which means that she is already planning to have American troops on the ground in Iran based on her Kyl-Lieberman vote.
One thing is clear neither the AUMF vote in 2002 nor the K-L vote in 2007 were for diplomacy yet that is what Hillary persists in saying?
I'm sorry but I do know now what we did not know then and Hillary lacks the judgment to lead and she is a warmongerer who did not at any time cast a vote for diplomacy.
November 4, 2007 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Add spine. Don't forget spine.
A principled, progressive Dem candidate with spine.
Two thirds of the electorate is scanning the horizon, looking for that person.
Kevin Russell Cook
November 7, 2007 7:40 AM | Reply | Permalink