Until there are jobs and birth control in Mexico we can expect immigration here. Any parent will leave their home country to save or vastly improve the chances of their children. Also, a tradtion of immigrating has been established and is supported by the immigrants here (as in every previous immigration.)

Walls and the like are expensive and probably ineffective given our coastlines. The real solution is in Mexico.

Walls and the like are expensive and probably ineffective

indeed. The anti-immigration group is ignoring a rather fundamental principle of economics: supply and demand. So long as there is a demand for inexpensive labor which Americans are unwilling to fill, and so long as there is a supply of such inexpensive laborers in Mexico who can't make a decent (or even survivable) living in their home country... they will find a way to get here. More Border Patrol won't stop them, a 2100 mile long wall won't stop them.

If we are willing to turn ourselves into a police state, that's about the only thing that will have any real success. Do we really want that?

haven't we learned anything from eastern Europe during the Communist era? Walls and border guards won't stop people from seeking freedom and opportunity.

Then I'm more sure than ever that the answer to the problem lies in Mexico. We should flood Mexico with more capital, plus more things to make it appealing...not just for Mexican immigrants to the US but for US emigrants to Mexico. Turn it around. See if they like us as much as we like them.

The "real solution" is in both countries. Here in the USA we need to allow labor unions to organize more easily the workers who take "the jobs Americans won't do". That would quickly increase the pay and working conditions until those become "the jobs American unemployed willingly do". When that happens employers will hire Americans and legal immigrants in preference to illegal immigrants, just to avoid unnecessary trouble. That ends the supply of low wage jobs that attract illegals.

In Mexico, of course, the first thing is to help a true democracy to flourish there. That cuts profits for American corporations who like having a near dictator in charge in Mexico. Who would prefer to deal with a union instead of a bribeable government official? In fact the entire bribery culture of Mexico needs to be eliminated.

Neither country acting alone can solve this problem.

Hoppy in Sacramento

One fact that is never discussed accurately, or fairly, that massive waves of illegal immigration has truly undermined American wages, most especially those of working poor and lower middle class American citizens, those least able to survive without being able to afford or survive long term un and under employment.

What is troubling for me is the fact that too many who use this forum either have no understanding or empathy for those poor and lower middle class American citizens. It's as if they refuse to be cognizant of the realities of the dire poverty, suffering, hunger, homelessness and even death that is imposed on those American citizens because of this. My statements aren't exagerations, I have experienced these problems, and the death of my husband resulted from the overburdening of the health care system in my state causing the cuts at the public hospitals in my former state that denied him the specialist he desperately needed as a transplant patient, causing a cancer that was survivable to go undiagnosed until it was far too late.

We have a limited amount of resources in the US, and have been experiencing an ever declining pool of jobs since the 1980s when outsourcing started. We do not lack workers, but we do lack leaders who will stand up for American citizen workers, and their rights.

I appreciate Mr. Quinones recognizing the fact that illegal immigration does nothing to change the corrupt Mexican, Central and South American governments, but I would appreciate it if he would start targeting organizations like La Raza, MALDEF, LULAC and others that take millions from the US Chamber of Commerce and other corporate interests and remain silent about the corruption of the Mexican, etc.. governments from south of the border. Those organizations are solely interested in power and profit, not the human rights interests they claim to be in aid of.

They serve the interests of those who seek to recreate the status quo from south of the border in the US.

Again, America is a sympathetic nation, we are a generous people, but it is exploitative to take advantage of that and demand that working poor and lower middle class Americans be denied their ability to work and have an opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty.

There needs to be a concerted focus on demanding or forcing change south of the border, rather than assisting in the attempts of corporate interests to destroy the lives of working poor and lower middle class Americans.

The post is interesting. In particular, I am curious to hear what ways you think the spreading out of Mexican immigration has been important for the country. I think it heightens the possibilities for real intercultural understanding as well as animosity. It is one of the main factors driving the backlash against immigrants in the past year or two.

Secondly, I look forward to hearing your ideas for promoting change in Mexico, or rather "assisting" change, since "promoting" has been tarnished by our Middle East misadventures.

They are jobs Americans have always done, and are willing to do. It's the reason that American construction jobs that lifted Americans out of poverty, jobs in masonry, electrician jobs, plumbing, landscaping, painting, meat packing plant jobs, and many more were held by American workers up until the past few years. Those jobs provided wages to keep a roof over ones family's heads, food on the table, health insurance and even the ability to purchase ones own home and afford ones children a college education.

The American dream too many here take for granted because they are ignorant of their own family's blue collar roots, is not some abstract concept. It's the ability to lifet ones self out of poverty, to live free of fear and uncertainty. If it's not ignorance, then it's the same greed their neo-con peers are infected with. If you started becoming activist because you were concerned about losing freedoms, I have news for you, your activism has become perverted by something that will only achieve a loss of freedom.. not too bright of you.

The snearing disdain for the American working poor and lower middle class, here, is proof of one thing, those who voice it aren't progressive, they are regressive and as fascistic as the corporate elite they purport to disdain. They are the same sort who serve as lackies for the corporate interests in the Bush administration, and will never be listened to by the majority of American voters.. perhaps that is why they are so mean spirited and snide about the suffering faced by the poor?

History tells us one thing for sure, it is those same snearing types who are hoist by their own petard. Their political movements and ideologies are the first ones to put their necks on the chop. If things do end up going their way, it's something to look forward to.. watching those who crowed so loudly bring it about be torn apart by the monster they helped create.

I know of families across the country who have lost homes, their livelihoods, have become homeless, seen their families fall apart, suffered illness because they can no longer work in their own countries because of illegal alien labor taking their jobs away.

What is needed is to bring back what the late President Eisenhower's plan. We do need to start massive deportation, we also need to become very punitive to corporations and every other employer of illegals. That includes even those who hire illegal nannies and housekeepers. Stiff, huge fines and jail time. Perhaps even rewards for those who report illegal workers, and protections for those whistleblowers. Eisenhower repatriated illegals by putting them on naval vessels and sailing them 500 miles down Mexico's coastline, and putting them ashore in a coastal town. There should also be fines levied against illegals who are deported. But those who self deport will be allowed to retain any monies they earned here. Within a few weeks most would have left of their own free will, those who remain will be more easily rounded up and deported.

We need to impose stiff tariffs on goods imported from south of the border, and inform the WEALTHY governments of Mexico, Central and South America that those tariffs will remain in place until they raise wages and opportunities in their countries for their own poor, that requires raising taxes on their wealthy and corporations. We need to tell them that a NAFTA is responsible for illegal aliens entering the US, that that illegal, unconstitutional agreement is null and void.

There also will be no more aid to such wealthy countries, they don't need subsidies any longer. We will use the funds by the elimination of aid and from tariffs to recompense our states and cities for the expenses incurred by illegal aliens.

I'm a liberal democrat, and I have news for those who want to snear at my comments, the majority of the American people, democrats as well as republicans, and independents too, and those who are rank and file labor union members included are in favor of this. I have friends from coast to coast, from members of a carpenter's union in SE Massachusetts, to construction workers in California. They are black, brown and white, they have been almost exclusively democrats, but will never vote for a democrat again who supported amnesty, or anything approaching that. Neither will they vote for greens, or anything of the leftist persuasion.. only for those who oppose it.

If you think you've achieved anything, perhaps you have.. we might see a government returned to republican control, both the white house and congress. They'll never vote for Clinton, or Obama now either after his flip flop on immigration. Me, if Edwards loses the primary, I'll vote for hopefully a least offensive republican candidate or write in a candidate whose name is being mulled as a protest vote.. and it's not Nader either.

We feel that the democratic party has taken us for granted, and the left is the same as the right wing.

"Mexican immigration is unique among the waves of immigrants to the United States in at least two ways"

What the Mexican migrants, I know and have worked with, most remind me of are the internal migrations we've seen in this country.(except there are a lot of them) The move of blacks from the South to the northern cities. Poor rural whites from the hills of Kentucky and Tennessee to the booming post war cities like Detroit and Chicago. A group I'm very familiar with is my father and uncles , and their neighbors who left small rural farms in Missouri and Oklahoma to go to California and find work. Much like my Uncles , who stayed in California, these Mexicanos, I've worked with, talk of getting enough money to go back home; open a store, buy a farm, ect.Ask them if they won the lottery tomorrow what would they do? They answer to a man "go back to Mexico". Some will and do. But a lot like my uncles will marry a local girl, buy a house and settle down. It's the way of life

Jack

Economists who are ideologically far left or far right can twist things to suit their agendas, and they do. From what we have seen, wages in industries have declined drastically over the past few years in what manufacturing jobs, construction and other related fields, even nursing.

Economic studies have shown that in cases where there is a real shortage of labor, wages increase to attract workers. What we have seen is American wages in fiels that used to pay 16 to 18 and 20 to 25 dollars per hour, drop to 8 to 10 dollars an hour because of illegal aliens underbidding American workers.

In my families experiece, once my husband was admitted to the oncology ward, the other person sharing the room, was an illegal alien from Mexico. He was covered by medicaid. Incidently, we got to know his family, and while I have nothing against them, we even became friendly over the three weeks, I would see them arrive and leave almost daily, they drove an SUV that had to be worth at least 15 thousand dollars. My husband had medicare, but was told he needed medicaid as a supplemental policy, but we were denied it because we had an old car, the state agency told us it had to be worth 4,000. though it wasn't. When my husband died, I sold his car to raise money to pay what bills we had and only got 100. dollars for it.

In the state of RI, illegal aliens do receive social services like welfare, food stamps, medicaid, housing subsidies. It's been exposed that they do so using fraudulent documents, and because Hispanic organizations put pressure for the applications to be approved without the same documentation American citizens have to comply with. You should educate yourself on the reality, not on the myths that are perpetuated to stifle the protestations of suffering, working poor Americans who are being discriminated against. Otherwise you are no different than those who believed the myths of those who supported the Jim Crow laws of the 50s and 60s to demean the civil rights movement.

Face it, your "activism" is in the interest of depriving American citizens of their civil rights, whether for corporate or ideological profit motives. You see to oppress innocent citizens based on your hatred and lust for power and control over their right to self determination. Believe me, I don't need to see a white hooded robe to pick up on that.

It didn't take long to attract the left wing nativist. It is why I stay away from most of these discussions about immigration.

My hispanic neighbors are hard working honest people with strong families. I like them I admire them. I would certainly rather live and work with them than a lot of Americans I know.

Jack

yup, I'm pissed

Caca de vaca.

ecotourism
WeGoEco.com

TV images of pollution-challenged Trabants crossing the Czech border in 1989 only emphasize the fact of  their complete absence in the prior 28 years of the Wall's existence.

And even without a shoot-to-kill policy (we won't adopt that tactic, will we?), the entry of 10-15,000 armadillo eaters a year isn't going to upset anyone.

Its comments like this that make me miss the newsgroup format. Give us a kill file, please!

Jack

Molly Ivins on walls and stuff:
Are they insane? As Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano observes, “Show me a 50-foot wall, and I’ll show you a 51-foot ladder.” Meanwhile, Republicans in the Senate have constructively declared English the national language. That’ll fix everything. Every foreigner at our borders will stop and say: “Gosh, ma foi! English is the national language here. Good thing to know. I’ll begin speaking it immediately.”

ecotourism
WeGoEco.com

Unless labor unions can organize illegal immigrants, how does raising the cost of domestic, legal labor not give employers the incentive to seek illegal immigrants to reduce their cost structure?

mm232 represents a large constituency of folks who have bought into large parts of the "dream" but fail to understand capitalism as the force exploiting workers on both sides of the border and effectively pitting them against one another to diffuse their energy.Understanding our class struggle is the same and that nationalism stands in the way of true solidarity is very difficult for blue collar folks immersed in capitalist cultural mythology.I would urge mm232 to think real hard about where the injustice and "oppression" originates.Think about how much democracy really exists.

The English as a national language movement always reminds me of my neighbor, Angelo. It was about 15 years ago I had just bought my first house in the neighborhood. I was setting on the front porch watching the world walk by when a small dried up looking , obviously drunk man walked down the sidewalk. Dug a beer out of the 12 pack he was carrying and said something incomprhensible to me. But the offer to stop a while and share a beer is much the same in any language. In the next hour I learned my first words in Spanish (no they aren't polite)and a phrase that echos in my mind any time these discussions come up.

Angelo, being very earnest, as only a drunk can do, looked at me and began shaking his finger in my face.

While doing this he said, "No Mexicano".

Then pointing to himself he said, "Puerto Rico".

Then thumping his chest real hard with the point of his finger, he said "American".

Listening to this old man and his broken English basically throws the whole "English as a natioal language" in the trash bin. We are a bilingual nation.

Jack

There is no democracy in socialism or in any other branch of the disease of Marxism, so quit attempting to exploit poverty and suffering for your parasitical ideology. It's based on slavery and oppression.

Regulated capitalism does work, and as imperfect as the US has been, it's been far superior to any other form of government.

I know the difference between the old world disease of caste system and privelege, and choose the new world of rights, freedom and self determination. That's not "buying into" anything, it's thinking for myself, rather than letting a drone like yourself think for me. ;)

What irks people like you is the fact that poor Americans, of all races and ethnic origins haven't been brought under your thumb, we aren't as stupid and ignorant as you attempt to paint us.. thus the need to demean and insult us. I'll bet it just slays you that those you consider inferior see you for the transparent fool that you are..

It's not a red herring.
The same logic that it's used against enforcing immigrations laws can be applied to any law,
speeding, tax cheating, prostitutions, drugs, ...

As I said a red herring , irrelevant to the discussion.

The KKK speak out of hatred, America's poor and struggling lower middle classes are speaking out about the realities of long term un and underemployment brought about at the request of the same people demanding open borders and gutting of American wage standards and workplace protections, the US Chamber of Commerce and the corrupt government of Mexico.. and I won't leave out the looney left who believe that if they rationalize open borders they'll finally have dupes to sacrifice themselves in the long dreamed of "revolution", lol!

Incidently, yave_begnet, you seem to have as much hatred as the KKK, you hate poor and struggling lower middle class black, brown and white American citizens who are seeking to petition their government to seek redress, just as the US constitution affords them the right to do. So, you're classist and racist.. wonder why?

Oh, grow up already.