There is a common notion in the Middle East that the objective of Western intervention in the former Ottoman Empire since 1914 has been to first destroy (Sykes-Picot, Versailles) and then prevent the resurrection of an Islamic superstate with control of the majority of the world's readily accessible petroleum supplies. If the objective of the Iraq War was to splinter control of the oil resources in Iraq and eliminate a strong central state that could, potentially, bargain with the West from a position of strength, then perhaps we won after all.

Well, its true that we have laboured mightily and for years to create a situation of anarchy and chaos in Iraq.

On the other hand, if the United States leaves, will Iraq still be a land of chaos. Or will internal forces seek to assert stability?

Will a central government reassert itself?

I dunno.

terrific

do you support the Chechen, Cherokee, Basque, Tamil, Rhade, Quebecois, Karen, Ainu, Zapatista (Chiapas), Zulu, Apache and Igbo peoples' right to self-determination?

We Cherokees already purportedly have the rights of a sovereign nation. In any case we are no longer hunted like wild animals. Don't know anything about my half-sisters' Crow relatives but I bet you don't either.

The ruling family in Japan may be descendants of the Ainu.

The Basque actually have a country - Andorra. Not much of a country but hey, they have more than others.

You're damn right I would support a homeland for the Karen, who suffer under the yoke of a most violent tyranny.

None of those named are as large, have fought longer for independence or have been subjected to continuing genocide comparable to that of the Kurds while being used like no other for nefarious purposes.

Best, Terry

I dunno Howard, this is a Kar Bchoha post which is not saturated with raving homicidal insanity. This is a good thing. I'm not sure whether it's an episode, or whether it will be a regular thing. But we should encourage it.

Would not the problem lie with those who would exclude the former slaves from the Cherokee nation and the former Gentiles from the Jewish nation just as with some of Thomas Jefferson's descendants unwilling to accept Sally Hemmings' descendents?

Israel already has a growing problem with the exclusion of Muslims from full participation while non-Ashkenazi Jews complain of discrimination as well. I am not real big on theocracies, whether here or there.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

It was in the late nineties, as I remember, that "stakeholder" became a management buzzword. One of the more officious managers at Nortel called a meeting for all "stakeholders" in some project, and I inquired if the meeting was to eliminate a vampire. A colleague said that he was of Transylvanian origin, and tended to think ill of those who discriminated against vampires.

I get along with my Danish and Swedish friends, I am told, by providing great amusement. When I attempt their languages, I seem to have a gift for speaking Svensk to the Danes and Dansk to the Swedes.

Hungary must be omewhere along the road between Finland and Mongolia, since, as I understand, Magyar is related only to those two languages.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

If it's any help, I have a colleague, a researcher who rotates between Sweden, New Hampshire, and Korea, that develops Internet connectivity for the varied reindeer herders north of the Arctic Circle. She swears, much to my disappointment, that she doesn't aluminize antlers and use them for satellite tracking.

Just to add confusion, she has joint US-Israeli citizenship. Therefore, she must, in some way, be Irish. It was reported, when Robert Briscoe became the first Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin, excessive consumption of jars of the cruel led to sightings of leprecohens.

--
Howard

[who goes off humming "Nancy Whisky"]

That may have been tongue in cheek, but... Magyars definitely are a majority in Hungary, the population of today's Hungary is about 95% Magyar. Magyars are not related to Turks and in fact fought very hard against the Ottomans until the 17th century. No one knows for sure what the ethnic origin of Magyars is, the usual theory is that they came from Central Asia (and are indeed related to Finns) and later mixed with the Slavic population of today's Hungary. There is also probably no connection between Huns and Hungarians, Huns just happened to live in the area of today's Hungary before the Magyars arrived.

Hungarian, like Finnish and Estonian, is totally incomprehensible.

What is interesting is how the discussion of eradication of said self-determination is considered acceptable in "polite company" whereas I do not hear of the eradication of any other nation as a general topic of conversation.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote very carefully. I am not talking now about giving self-determination to various groups that are demanding it, I am talking about ENDING the self-determination of an ALREADY EXISTING STATE. Do you understand the difference?
I find it funny for someone to quote Clemenceau who opposed self-determination for those outside of France who wanted it, after all, when he said it, he and his British allies controlled two gigantic empires that controlled much of the earth's surface, so it is no surprise that he wouldn't be interested in giving self-determination to others.

So, you don't like the "nation-state" concept. What do you want to put in place of it...some sort of "world government"? Something like the bureaucratic dictatorship called the "EU"? Who is going to run such a monstrosity? The politically-correct liberal set? Are you going to run it, or do I get a say in it as well? We Jews have a long history with such ideas. We were part of the Roman Empire which was certainly not "nationalistically" inclined. That was pretty close to world gov't. Then there was the Catholic church which held sway in much of Europe after the fall of Rome. We didn't do too well there either. Then there were the large Muslim Empires. Again, not too good for us. Then there was the USSR which claimed to represent something like the "international proletariat" and wanted some sort of "world gov't". That also didn't work out too well. We have drawn the proper conclusions from these experiments in controlling mankind on at least a continental if not global scale.

MJ, You called Nir Rosen The brilliant correspondent and author and pointed to his interview in NOW.

Rosen said
"Iraq has been changed irrevocably, I think. I don’t think Iraq even -- you can say it exists anymore

But no matter what, Iraq doesn’t exist anymore. Baghdad will never be in the hands of Sunnis again. Baghdad will be controlled by Shia militias. They’ve been cleansing all the Sunnis from Baghdad. So Sunnis are basically being pushed out of Iraq, period."

On another hand

"NIR ROSEN: What needs to happen at this point is a one-state solution, where Palestinian refugees are allowed to go back to their homes, where Israel is a state for Jews and non-Jews alike, a state for its citizens. And this one-state solution is inevitable."

Can anybody detect any hint of logic in writing
of this "brilliant" author and can anybody explain why MJ promote this guy?

Can I, as an individual, living in this house, on this piece of property, declare my right to self determination, secede from the USA and start my own country?

All hail JohnWilvania, land of the brave, and freee.... scoobie doo wah....

Howard, I'm hiring for the diplomatic corps, how about a nice Ambassadorship?

It's good to know that the USA killed Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia, the Roman Empire, the Brythonic Iceni Celtic monarchy, the Ottoman Empire, and Carthage. I thought I'd have to remember much more complex explanations.

Oh, perhaps you can remind me where Jefferson Davis was executed, or died in jail?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Reunite Gonwandaland!

quod erat demonstratum.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Okay, I'll say it - GUILTY!

Thank you. I have never proposed that there is any advantage to the destruction of Israel, but US support for Israel should be a matter of the geopolitical interest of the US. I'm distinctly unimpressed by arguments that Israel faces imminent destruction, especially by Iran, and that the US should put increasing pressure on Iran. I understand that the people of Pompeii really appreciated the rich soil near Mt. Vesuvius, and they made a judgment call about that land. Israelis have pioneered making apparently lifeless soil prolific, and I salute them.

Just as there are people who say the US, China, or Liechtenstein is always right, there are people that say Israel is always right. I want the US to feel free to pressure Israel when Israel's actions are not in the interest of the US, and not bring mystical exceptionalism arguments into it.

Indeed, I would suggest you might substitute Israel for the US in the wise words of Carl Schurz:

I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves … too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: "Our country, right or wrong!" They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country—when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right."

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Maybe he was referring to Romania, where the Magyars are indeed a minority population.

That may have been tongue in cheek, but... Magyars definitely are a majority in Hungary, the population of today's Hungary is about 95% Magyar. Magyars are not related to Turks and in fact fought very hard against the Ottomans until the 17th century. No one knows for sure what the ethnic origin of Magyars is, the usual theory is that they came from Central Asia (and are indeed related to Finns) and later mixed with the Slavic population of today's Hungary.

I once made the logical connection of a relationship between the origins of Hungarians and Finns and was shouted down by an anthropologist who told me in no uncertain terms that the Hungarians were not related to the Finns and as well that the majority population of Hungary was Slavic rather than Magyar.

Here is something I just picked up FWIW:

The Hungarians, unlike their Slavic neighbours, speak a language of the group known as Finno-Ugric. Despite claims of Hunnish descent, it is thought that they came from the Ural Mountains in Russia and migrated east, then south in contact with Turks and Iranians, taking on a nomadic, herding lifestyle. The word Hungary is though to have come from On Ogur ("ten arrows"), the name of a Magyar tribal confederation.

In the fifth century AD the Magyars migrated - some west to the Don River, others south to the Caucasus Mountains. About 800 AD, seven Magyar tribes contributed 20,000 men to the Khazar army, and in 836 a Magyar army allied with the Bulgars, attacked a Byzantine fleet near the mouth of the Danube River. In ensuing decades they took control of large areas of southern Russia, raiding Slav settlements for booty and slaves and in 862, they raided the eastern Frankish Empire.

In 889, the Magyars under their leader Arpad, apparently fleeing the Turkic steppe race known as the Pechenegs (or Patzinaks) landed in the middle of a war between Byzantium and Bulgaria. The Byzantines bribed them to attack the Bulgars, which they did with initial success. But the Bulgarian Kijnaz (king) Symeon made an alliance with the Pechenegs, who drove the Magyars up the Danube valley into the region now known as Hungary.

I am delighted to welcome the whole of Hungary to the family if they will admit to unseemly company. Any reindeer herders in the bunch? :-)

Best, Terry

Bruce, I don't think MJ was implying that Bar K was indifferent to the dead in Iraq, but that it is what needs to be discussed. And I believe Howard and Terry's tangent drafted off of Bar K's original OT comments. Then there is the history of MJ's posts...

That's a five yard loss to the visiting team- illegal procedure :)

Alll-righty then...

I'm glad you brought this topic up, though, and still would like to see it discussed and fleshed out. The GAO report was just released and the spokesman summed it up by stressing that the Iraqi government is dysfunctional. Whatever the Dems do or don't do on Iraq and whatever the administration tries to put over, this is the bottom line. The Iraqi government cannot and will not stand on their own if we stay a year or ten. That is what congress needs to confront Crocker with. That is the starting point of any decision on Iraq.

Sorry to hear it, 'cause my Cowboys are gonna take on your Giants this weekend (hint: It won't be pretty). Still, you have two teams up there.

Now look who's off-topic...oh, well.

Saddam was Iraq; no Saddam, no Iraq; just Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds.

I just happened to be watching CNN when Nir gave his report. I loved the direct answers to questions with no BS - short and to the point. He reminded me of some of Michael Ware's reports from Bagdhad.

As bad as I always wanted to beat Dallas, I always liked Tom Landry.

Isn't there a 'Tom Landry' middle school in the cartoon sitcom, 'King of the Hill'?

Is that part of the joke? A community so bankrupt and cultureless that it named a school after a coach?