Wolfowitz: Je Ne Regrette Rien
Watching the news from Iraq this week and I couldn't help but wonder: is anyone going to pay for these crimes?
How is it that innocent people can die by the hundreds and thousands thanks to policy decisions made by Americans and nobody here is held accountable.
And, no, I do not think that losing Congress or the Presidency amounts to being held accountable for mass carnage.
The worst part is that these people do not even hold themselves accountable. LBJ and McNamara suffered pangs of, I don't know, guilt, shame, anger, regret. Something.
Not this gang.
Interviewed by The Australian while on a visit to Melbourne, Paul Wolfowitz makes clear that, for him, all the war's costs have been outweighed by the accomplishment.
"I think it is worth remembering January 2005. When Iraqis got the chance to vote for the first time, and the enemy threatened death to those who voted, and some said the indelible ink on the thumb may be mark of death, 9.5million Iraqis voted. That said something important."
Maybe it did. It just didn't change anything important, like the slaughter of innocent people.
Iraq is infinitely worse off today than it was before the war. We have, essentially, destroyed a country and, in the process lost 3700 young Americans.
But Wolfowitz, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Perle, Kristol, Feith and the Members of Congress who voted for the war just sail on.
Like Edith Piaf, they have no regrets.
As for the rest of us, we see documentaries about the war. We get angry. And, in my case, I write posts. Big deal.
But few of us really do a goddam thing.










I couldn't agree more with your sentiments here. And while I think that it is our responsibility as Americans to police ourselves and punish these guys and others here like them, I sadly don't see it happening.
One thing that I would love to see is a united world response. If we here do not arrest and put on trial these kinds of criminals then the world should label us a rogue nation or worse and smack travel bans on us and our officials. Basically tell us "hey we don't like you and you're not welcome." And arrest anyone of them that's tied to these horrible crimes if they set foot outside our borders. I know...it's a fantasy land proposition for a plethora of reasons. First and foremost is economics. Tourism and trade would take huge hits and as we all know, money is what makes the sun rise and the world turn. But I'd love to see the world get fed up with our outrageous and at times bloodthirsty behavior and really knock us on our asses for it. After all, the only way American citizens really get their panties in a bunch is if they personally get the screws turned on them. But to be honest, more and more it seems that even then they may not even react. It's just too much of a bother...
August 17, 2007 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
They suffer pangs of "Why don't people realize how great we are?"
Seriously, they have convinced themselves that they are heroes, that those who die are pawns and that those who oppose are misguided fools who will one day see the light and apologize.
W. very seriously believes that we'll one day call him a great president and he probably thinks that he'll be around to hear us all apologize.
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
August 17, 2007 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is in the nature of imperialism that the aggressor is not punished for her crimes. Look at Belgium. They invaded the Congo, exploited her rubber and in the space of 20 years (from 1890 to 1910) the native population was reduced from 20 million to about 10 million. Now that almost counts as genocide.
Yet in 1914 little Belgium was being treated as the poor abused victim of the hated Germans in the American press.
Definitely not fair, but those are the rules of the world.
August 17, 2007 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Their is something shocking about this post coming as it does just after Al Qaeda slaughtered something like 500 human beings! You are not calling for a doubling of the effort to deal with them, but calling for those who launched a war, against the lawful tyranny of the former government from a 20% minority that tried to hold 80%+ in bondage, to be held to account for liberating those people!
Who could doubt the extreme right wing nature of pseudo leftists ranting on about this revolution! Of course the war was illegal (laws are established by revolutions not the other way round!)
LBJ etc tried to prevent democracy in Vietnam and were soundly defeated yet you compare the liberation of the Iraqi masses with the former attempt to prevent the liberation of the Vietnamese peoples. Sheesh!
If anyone ought to be held responsible it ought to be those that have run US policy since WW2 almost totally rotten to the core.
The people of the ME deserve solidarity and unity in the struggle against oppression. All former US policies of promoting tyranny deserve to be swept into the dustbin of history and the reactionaries passing themselves as 'progressives' with them.
The liberation of the entire region is now on the agenda, starting with the establishment of a Palestinian state and the ending of 40years of a failed war for greater Israel and yet you are not demanding greater effort against the reactionaries but shaking your head and regretting that the monsters have been let loose.
Ah yes tyranny nice and safe hey: don't rock the boat or we could all end like so many slaves that have tried to rebel before us!
I don't think so!
Everywhere the old world is under challenge get used to it.
Patrick
August 17, 2007 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
The US aggression in Vietnam thirty-five years ago wasn't stopped by peace marches or letters to the editor, and in spite of its unpopularity it certainly wasn't ended by the Congress. It only stopped when the troops refused to undertake further offensive action against the citizens of Vietnam. These refusals were punctuated by insubordination, mutinies and fragging.
The government is smarter now. With a volunteer military it is handing out large sums of money for re-enlistments and enlistment referrals, as well as lowering enlistment standards, and is forcing soldiers into longer enlistments. Still, there are troops who understand the wrongness of the war. They need to be supported. IVAW--Iraq Veterans Against the War--is a good place to start.
August 17, 2007 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry Patrick. That wasn't Al Quaeda. That was the Kurds. Your allies, Patrick. They were just engaging in a little urban renewal, opening up more land for good old Sunni Kurds.
August 17, 2007 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Val you have no evidence for your slur!
Patrick
August 17, 2007 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I appreciate your outrage. It was well expressed. On a positive note, I was heartened by an article in the paper today on administration peace initiatives. It argued or at least claimed that, compared to 2000, we've the advantage now of involvement of Blair in helping to build a Palestianian future and of the Saudis and other Arab nations. It offers hope that, for all the spiral of violence that bolsters political extremism, we may be able to get past the Bush failure of leadership for years here. And a Democratic president is coming soon.
John
http://www.haberarts.com/
August 17, 2007 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Veterans for Peace is also a great organization that needs support, and is also a good place to start.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Come visit PROJECT: Lucidity
Where everybody knows your name...
unless you use a pseudonym
August 17, 2007 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
More like Condi Rice is coming!
Patrick
August 17, 2007 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's see now, Patrick claims al-Qaeda did it, but Professor Juan Cole thinks maybe it was done by Sunni Arabs fighting Kurds.
Cole: "Note that first Shiite Turkmen were targeted and now Kurdish Yazidis. They have in common not being Sunni Arabs. My suspicion is that these bombings are not just an attempt to spread fear and intimidation, but are actually part of a struggle for control of territory. The Sunni Arab guerrillas face powerful challenges from Kurds and Shiites with regard to the future of provinces such as Ninevah, Diyala and Kirkuk. A lot of Kurdish police and troops have been deployed in Mosul not far from Tuesday's bombings, and they are seen as among the deadliest enemies by the Sunni Arab guerrillas. Sooner or later, my guess is that the Sunni Arabs will wage a major war with the Kurds over the oil fields of Kirkuk."
Ah, it's a tough choice, but I'll go with Juan Cole on that one.
The "liberation of the Iraqi masses" into an Islamic state allied with Iran? Is this the "noble cause"? Come on Patrick, you can do better than that. The US is fulfilling OBL's dream agenda: (1) We're out of holy Saudi Arabia (2) We overthrew the secular Saddam and (3) Instituted a new religious state in Iraq. Okay, it's Shia and not Sunni like OBL, but we gave him most of what he wanted--and thanks to continued congressional funding we're in it for the long haul. Pity that.
And now "liberation of the entire region"? Hold on tight.
August 17, 2007 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are over 150,000 contractors over there, too, doing jobs that were done by the Army a generation ago. Their casualty numbers aren't included in government war death stats.
August 17, 2007 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder...if someone would have shot Hitler or Goering or Gerbels dead in the years running up to the World war would the Germans have considered them heroes or traitors?
If someone were to assassinate Wolf-a-witch, or Rumsfeld, Feith, Perle etc. would they be heroes for bringing justice to these mass murderers(especially since Cheney has admitted knowing what would happen in Iraq on video before we invaded...and did it anyway) should they be considered heroes or traitors?
Here they aren't even considered criminals but in a world court they would be condemned. We have become so brainwashed by the "America can do no wrong" patriotism that we consider lying us into a war and raping another country political bad judgment.
I have to remind myself that Justice serves at the pleasure of the president.
August 17, 2007 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
But they are heroes who have saved the world. They have not avoided committing crimes but have hidden those crimes in some amorphous war-times powers excuse. They are covered by the all-powerful invisible cloak of GWOT. They are really untouchable. The only way to hold them accountable is for the Democrats in the House to gather their courage and impeach.
August 17, 2007 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I remember hearing a piece on NPR quite a few years ago about Iraq. It was put together when Saddam Hussein was still in power. They talked about how the kids in Baghdad were pretty much like the kids anywhere in the world: cruising the city in their cars, listening to western music and hanging out with their friends. And I remember particularly one interview they did with a group of teenagers they met on the street. These were all apparently happy kids who talked about how they loved Britney Spears and Madonna and whatever else was popular at the time. And I remember one girl--I'll never forget her happy, innocent voice--saying, "We love America! We love America! Why you hate us?"
It was while I was listening to that piece that I realized I was being lied to about Iraq. By my own government. Just like we're being lied to about Iran now. I've often wondered if that girl made it through our Shock and Awe attack and the subsequent violence in her country.
Saddam was a horrible, violent, ruthless leader. But George W. Bush is infinitely worse.
August 17, 2007 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
First note what Valdron said, then consider just how silly this notion of separating Al Qaeda from other Sunni’s that are prepared to conduct such suicide bombings is; Al Qaeda is not targeting Sunni’s. These bombers are all equivalent! As with Japanese Militarism, Italian Fascism and German Nazism it does not much matter. The real question is what side are you on?
‘Sooner or later, my guess is that the Sunni Arabs will wage a major war with the Kurds over the oil fields of Kirkuk.’ Why ought they? If oil revenue sharing is proportional what would they hope to gain but a disproportionate share. How would anyone support a disproportionate share for one ethnic group? South Africa and Israel are the former models but are well out of fashion in the moder era.
Valdron correctly recognized that I support the Kurdish peoples and the Iraqi government against such aggression. Do you?
BTW: Iraq is not an Islamic state allied with Iran, but rather a threat to the Iranian theocracy as democratic elections are looked on with envy by the Iranian people who will overthrow the theocrats. Remember how the police states of eastern Europe infected one another with regional effect. The ME is ripe for revolution.
Patrick
August 17, 2007 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you CLICK on the link provided by AJ you will see this post by AJ is 'timely' as the article is dated 8/18 Australia time.
He wasn't writing a column on al Qaeda, he was writing about those that got the US into IRAQ not having any regrets regardless of the carnage that is happening and with no end in sight. Maybe tomorrow he'll write about al Qaeda and the 500 dead.
I'm not even going to address that piece of nonsense, except to ask one question;
"Hey Iraqi, how is that liberation working out for you?"
He's also not demanding an end to world hunger or disease.
"There is something shocking about" your post in that you ignore MJ's point along with perhaps 100,000 Iraqi dead, close to 4,000 dead troops, another 20,000 wounded, many maimed for life, $10 billion per month down a rat hole, much of it corrupted, a military stretched to the limits, a record number of suicides among our troops....and finally; Not one piece of evidence has been uncovered that justified Bush's reasons for invading Iraq. No WMD, no al Qaeda connection, and certainly its been proven that Saddam was no threat to the US.
Would those 500 human beings you care about be dead today if Bush didn't invade Iraq?
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that you don't post about these points.
August 17, 2007 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
W couldn't care less about his legacy. His only concern is too continue the reign of the oligarchs. Middle East oil and projecting our power there is the prop he needs to hold up the current hierarchy.
August 17, 2007 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Val,
it used to be Bill Clinton that did all the evil, now its al Qaeda.
Did you notice how the Bush gang and our military rarely, if ever, mention the "insurgents" now, no more talk of civil war, its all al Qaeda now with little snippets about Iran thrown in.
The "Democracies" in Afghanistan and Iraq are frikkin jokes, Potemkin Villages.
"Hey Iraqi, did you vote in the last election?"
'Yes, I did."
"Show me your purple finger"
"I can't, my hand was blown off by a car bomb."
Sad.
August 17, 2007 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
"We have become so brainwashed by the "America can do no wrong" patriotism jingoism..."
FTFY
August 17, 2007 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, we Americans will do whatever it takes, just so long as American Idol isn't on the tube that night. Seriously, no, we won't do anything at all, and the primary reason is that the right wing in this country is so vicious and sociopathic that we are afraid of them. Never forget that about 30% of Americans believe we did the right thing by invading Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. To them the only good Moslem is a dead one. Great country we have here.
Hoppy in Sacramento
August 17, 2007 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Saddam was supported by about 20% of Iraq. Bush is supported by about 30% of America. See how much better Bush is than Saddam? On any other basis, you are correct.
Hoppy in Sacramento
August 17, 2007 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Neocons believe and live by the belief that superior people have the right - and the duty - to rule inferior people.
Neocon philosophy echoes the 'apology' delivered by Robespierre to justify the Reign of Terror, "Out of pity and love of humanity, you must be inhuman."
If you want to elicit fits of hysteria among neocons, just suggest to them that their belief system bears an uncanny resemblance to that of their declared enemy, communism, - "The end justifies the means."
August 17, 2007 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the effort in WW2 was worth it and that the effort in Vietnam (when the US was the enemy) was also worth it even though the Vietnamese peoples suffered in their millions because 'the dust wil not vanish where the broom does not reach'.
But you say ‘and finally; Not one piece of evidence has been uncovered that justified Bush's reasons for invading Iraq. No WMD, no al Qaeda connection, and certainly its been proven that Saddam was no threat to the US.’ All true.
Your problem is that you are blind to the real reason the U.S. ruling elite decided to go to war.
Bush is no lefty because he is waging this war in the interests of his class, and it is only incidentally in the interests of the oppressed peoples’ in the Middle East. He has become a progressive-right-winger because history thrust greatness upon him.
He asked the big questions that had to be asked, after 9/11. What more can they do to us? ...Well, Mr. President they will, if not stopped, eventually get hold of a nuke and destroy Washington or some other city.
What strategy must we adopt to defeat them? Mr. President we must set down policies to turn every country in the world into a modern (bourgeois) democracy. If all countries look, and smell like Sweden and France, we will have won. The world needs sewerage systems for the smell, and industrialization for the sewerage systems; it needs education for the industrialization, and it needs basic bourgeois political freedoms to permit the education… We must stop doing what we have been doing for the whole post WW2 period.
We must reverse all our old policies.
These mosquitoes are attacking us because we caused a swamp in the Middle East which breeds them! We must drain that swamp, and then there will be no more mosquitoes. Mr. President there is no other way of winning this war…. (At least that is what I would tell him if I was in the war cabinet)
If you want to think more about the type of issues that I am bringing up then go to
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/
and have a look at the Draining the swamp thread in the forum, or democracy was intended for Iraq
Your ruling class lies to you and has initiated this war for strategic reasons. The US ruling elite sat down after 9/11 and accepted that the former policies of propping up every tyrant and reactionary against the peoples struggle for democracy (while lying about supporting democracy) had resulted in the disaster.
All the former policies have been reversed and democratic revolution is now being supported.
Static thinking is your problem.
The Iraqi people fighting for their liberation against a heavily armed Baathist regime with tanks and artillery helicopter gun ships intact command and control etc would require many more casualties from the side I support. Then at the end of that struggle the enemy could still resort to the type of bombing we see now!!
Patrick
August 17, 2007 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting point hoppy - the whole fear of the right thing.
A thought just flashed through my "it's Friday and I can't wait until 7pm and my first Guinness" mind that is a little disturbing but I still find myself smiling about it. And as a childhood conservative that grew up and found a conscience I think it could be considered ironic.
In my little fantasy I'm the "dictator for the day" here in America. I get to rule on everything. And you know what I do? Why I treat all of the rightwing lunkheads out there that hate anything that's not white, Christian and rich with a drawl and I do unto them everything they bellow about doing unto others. I round them all up. I toss them all in cells and do some alternative forms of questioning. I ban their religion and label it a fascist and terrorist organization and shut that thing down too. And by the time I wake up the next day I find that we all miraculously are getting along much better and not hating or trying to kill or control the entire freaking planet. And I smile a little because it's at that moment I realize just how much fun it could be to scare the bejeezus outta the right using their own devices. And they'd be scared of me too because as a former member of the right...they'd be fully aware of just what I'd be capable of! >:D
August 17, 2007 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Spot on. I read a great theory a number of years ago about why the US had succeeded in forming a representative democracy and the French had gone the way of the reign of terror. The author linked the French Revolution, Leninism, Nazism as coming out of romantic utopianism. The utopian end justifies the means, and the means then terribly corrupts the utopian end.
The US was more fortunate coming out of the more rational Enlightenment. Gore speaks to that in his "Assault on Reason".
Neocons are corrupt utopians.
August 17, 2007 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patrick,
The US military doesn't consider it "silly" to separate the Sunnis from al-Qaeda. The US is now arming Sunnis (former American-killers) in Anbar Province to fight al-Qaeda, who have been killing Sunnis.
Who are you to suggest that the Sunnis shouldn't fight the Kurds? Are you an Arabic-reading expert? What are your qualifications? The Sunnis once ran the country, they have now left the "government", and in a civil war power comes out of the barrel of a gun. (It's US policy also.) Why do think that the Sunnis should trust the Shi'ites? Saudi Arabia certainly doesn't, and so they are supporting the Sunnis too.
Finally, you've got the Iraq/Iran relationship all wrong. Maliki and the Iranian mullahs are as tight as a drum. Iran has been aiding Iraq for at least two years. recent news:// The Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has called for the expansion of ties with Iran, requesting Tehran's cooperation in rebuilding Iraq. In a meeting with Iran's Vice-President Parviz Davoudi on Wednesday, al-Maliki expressed hope that Iranian companies would welcome investments on the fields of energy, industry and commerce.//And Iran just gave Maliki a new Airbus 300 aircraft.
August 17, 2007 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have been reading the ravings of Hitchens for a few years now, but this is the first time I have encountered anyone repeating his rants.
Is that you Chris, hiding in there?
August 17, 2007 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I got more evidence for the Kurds than you got for Al Quaeda, Patrick ol boy.
And it's a well established fact that the Kurds are engaged in good ole ethnic cleansing.
They gots to, you see. They need that oil, and that means all those Turkmen, Assyrians, Sunni Arabs and Yeziday, who might otherwise contest that claim for oil have to be removed, all permanent like, or they'll never have their Greater Kurdistan.
That's how the game is played.
August 17, 2007 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Worth it" to who? To the millions of Vietnamese who suffered? The 58,000 Americans who died and the untold numbers of wounded? To who?
What was the outcome of our war in Vietnam?
What was "worth it"? Worth what? What was gained?
'a broken broom sweeps not clean'.
August 17, 2007 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
The US under Bush is trying to 'drain the swamps' of the Middle East - that is, undermine and overthrow the dictators it has propped up for 60 years - and we should be supporting them, and demanding they do more and go faster.
Sure, Patrick, that's why we're giving all that aid to Saudi Arabia, the Gulf emirates and Egypt, and why we continue to support Jordan and Kuwait.
Horsepucky.
August 17, 2007 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're pre empting the Historians. :-)
August 17, 2007 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm afraid I have to disagree with Cole on this one. Look at how the players stack up in this region.
The Sunni Arabs in the region are playing defense, they're being attacked and ethnically cleansed by the Kurds who are making a play for control of strategic and oil producing borderland and mixed areas. The Kurds have American support and pretty much a free hand to do as they like. The Sunni Arabs simply don't have the same strategic advantages.
Instead, the biggest and best card that the Sunnis are able to play is to ally with minority and marginal groups in the area in an anti-Kurdish front. These groups, the Turkmen, Assyrians, Yeziday are all extremely vulnerable, they're small minorities, but they are very well established with long histories in the region. They have nowhere to go. To survive, they need to ally with one of the countries major factions. The Kurds are out to displace them. The Shiites are too remote. That leaves the Sunnis.
Juan Cole is correct that someone is clearing the deck for a Sunni/Kurdish showdown. But it makes no sense for the Sunni to start toasting their natural allies. It makes a lot of sense for the Kurds to clean house.
Sorry, Juan Cole is an invaluable resource and he's definitely the expert. But he called this one wrong.
Oh, and whatever it is, it's not Al Quaeda. Al Quaeda claims its victims, it issues press releases, makes announcements, and goes out of the way to take the credit.
No one is taking credit for this. This is another finger pointing at the Kurds. They can't afford to take credit overtly, it would get them in dutch with their big dog.
August 17, 2007 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry Patrick, but that's just self evidently dumb.
Because the Kurds want an independent state, or as close to independent as they can get. They need those oil fields, they're vital to Kurdish aspirations. And the Kurds aren't interested in sharing. Everyone knows this.
Glad to hear it. How many American lives will you spend to support the Kurds, because their plans involve Americans dying on their behalf in large numbers for the Greater Glory of United Kurdistan.
Actually, Iraq's ruling political parties, SCIRI and Dawa are closely allied with Iran. Iran gave these parties political asylum during the Saddam era, funded them, and helped arm their militias. Maliki and other Iraqi government figures frequently visit Iran. Basically, once America leaves, Iran will inherit Iraq. Thank Bush for that.
August 17, 2007 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
The representative democracy was so successful that it enslaved nearly half of the population of the south and plunged the country into a civil war that killed more than 10 times what the French terror did.
You call that being more fortunate ??
August 17, 2007 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Germans liked Belgium so much they invaded them twice.
August 17, 2007 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
And before them the French, the British, the Dutch, the Danes, the Swedes, etc. etc. Basically, there was a time when they wouldn't let you into Europe if you didn't invade Belgium. It was like part of the membership requirements.
August 17, 2007 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patrick:
To sound like Goebbels does not help your argument. They are attacking us because we are occupying them.
Now, a linguistic question: If you call those people mosquitoes, what does that make you? A cockroach?
August 17, 2007 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure Vietnam was worth it to America. But I'm not sure what you are saying about Vietnam.
As for the real reason Bush wanted to go to war, that's simple. Oil. Strategic control of Iraq's oil reserves, which would mean strategic control of the entire Persian Gulf, intimidation of Iran, breaking the back of OPEC, and using domination of the planet's key resource to ensure America's economic and political hegemony indefinitely.
None of this crap about liberating people, bringing forth the revolution, or any of that. Free people have a disconcerting habit of acting in their own interests, rather than how you want them to act. Dictators are always much safer.
As for whether Democracy was ever intended for Iraq, that's a dubious proposition at best, considering the maneuvering to put Ahmad Chalabi in power.
August 17, 2007 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Everywhere the old world is under challenge get used to it.
A few hundred, or a few thousand, random murders does not a new world order make.
We've had serial killers with three-figure body counts. Somehow, our Republic still managed to survive.
About three thousand people died during the 9/11 terrorist attacks. During that same year, over 50,000 people in the United States died in car crashes.
The terrorists simply are not a substantial threat to our way of life. We need to treat this as an international law enforcement issue against a handful of rogue murderers, not declare war against the entire Islamic world.
August 17, 2007 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patrick
Just a point about "draining swamps" - it is highly recommended that you have some people involved that know a thing or two about say the ecosystem in the swamp and something about the other life forms that live in the swamp that may be harmed if you just go a-draining things. Oh yeah and it might also be helpful if you knew exactly where you were "draining" all that swamp to because that guy living next door might not take too kindly to finding all that swamp in his backyard tomorrow...
You see the leaders in our country and the vast majority of all of those rabid pundits and think-tank dregs operate on little more then opinion and prejudice. I'm reminded of that Jon Stewart segment - They don't know Dick. They've been disastrously wrong on so many things so very often that I'm surprised we don't simply do the exact opposite of whatever they say. I'd be willing to bet things would improve all over the world dramatically in one week if that's what we started doing.
August 17, 2007 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patrick, Up until now I occasionally have troll-rated you because of your mindless quotings of neo-con talking points.
I am beginning to rethink some things; I realize that you may not be an actual troll, but instead that you are one sick puppy. I won't gointo all of your rantings, but the Vietnam bullshit just stands out.
According to you, we LOST Vietnam because of lack of support for the powers that be, etc, right? So, that means we lost. We went in (theoretically) to keep it from going Communist. Well, we LOST, but lo and behold, Vietnam isn't communist; we do business with them on a daily basis.
So, if our 58,000 young men an women, and the untold millions of Vietnamese hadn't died, how would things be different? (Since we LOST, and they trade happily with us, how would things be different if we had WON?) But don't lose that thought of the 58,000 and untold millions who died -- who of them might have been a real leader? Who of them might have made this world a better place? (If the coward chickenhawks Bush and Cheney had stepped up to the plate and NOT survived Vietnam, I am CONVINCED the world would be a better place, but that is another argument entirely.)
Hell, China isn't even communist any more. Why? Because they caught on to the idea of capitalism. Yea US! We taught China so well that they are poisoning our pets and children in the name of capitalism!
You paranoid sociopaths have to get over the idea that WE know best! You paranoid sociopaths have to get over the idea that the end justifies the means! You paranoid sociopaths have to get over the idea that the love of, and the act of making money is the root of all happiness!
And, Patrick, you really need to check yourself in to a major mental health facility! Trust me, I am a nurse, and I know pathology when I see it.
Jan
August 17, 2007 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jan according to me the Vietnamese people won (and I supported them! The US ruling class had it's ass kicked soundly. The lives lost were because of US aggression on the part of 'nice' liberals like Kennedy.
Now take a deep breath and stop jumping to the conclusion that I would believe that "the act of making money is the root of all happiness"
Patrick
August 17, 2007 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is one important thing we can all do. It seems very small and insignificant, but if you don't do it, you shouldn't be offering your 2 cents worth on these blogs because it isn't worth that much. Write to your congressman and both senators and tell them how you feel about it. Blog readers can't vote on anything that isn't on a referendum.
August 17, 2007 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
killing "wogs" is the oldest sport in the history of amerika.
it is the amerikan birthright, so to speak.
and it started at the outset of the round-eye, big nose invasion of this hemisphere.
and none of the homicidal gangsters have ever paid any penalty. why? because amerikans like to kill those that they think to be untermenschen.
what is novel in this latest episode of mass murdering of "wogs" is that those who were victims[aka "wogs"] of mass murdering in europe 65 years ago are now the proponents of mass murdering[genocide].
in a very real sense, the amerikan mass murdering of middle eastern "wogs" has been instigated by those who you might have thought would be opposed to "genocide"....the religious victims of the thousand year reich - jews.
when i think of israel, i think of amerika from 1865-today. amerika's motto: "the only good indian is a dead indian".
in israel today, the motto is: "the only good palestinian[non-jew] is a dead palestinian."
before your very eyes, a pogrom is being pursued.
the israeli objective, financed and armed by the united states of amerika, is to eliminate all non-jews from the middle east.
a startlingly similar objective to ah's.
August 17, 2007 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Feed The Snake Its Own Tail
The lame and crippled democracy of Iraq is not even as noble as the Mob with the guillotine was at the dawn of the French Revolution, and this is now four plus years out. Yet this is the best reason this revisionary can offer for his miserable failure as Assistant Secretary of Defense; and it is most assuredly a revised vision of the Iraq War by Wolfowitz. In a May 2003 interview with Sam Tannenhaus from Vanity Fair, Wolfowitz expressly ruled out freeing the Iraqi people as a justification for bleeding American Soldiers in Iraq. Trouble is that:
There Were No WMDs
There Were No WMD Production Facilities
There Were No Ties Between Saddam and al Qaeda
The Threat Was Not Imminent
There Was No Gathering Storm
What else is left but to claim that this bloodbath of ethnic purges, which far surpasses even the most bloated estimates of Hussein's killing fields; that this pillaging of the American treasury, which in comparison gives the Oil for Food Scandal an aura of a two-bit grifter's scheme, is a worthy outcome for his dream's obscene manifestation in reality.
Feed the snake his own tail. Make him choke on his own words. What could be more appropriate to this end than a dish served off of the DoD's own servers?
The north of iraq was not under Saddam's control, but was intead under Kurdish control, and protected by US/UK/French Over-Flights. "this guy Zarqawi whom Powell spoke about in his UN presentation" was a one-legged Baghdad Hospital guest at Saddam's behest, who had lost his leg in Afghanistan fighting against American forces, btw. This was before he became Iraq's Qaeda One. Is there anything at all in this analysis that was correct?
August 17, 2007 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
There was no waffling back then, they went for the mussels in Brussels.
August 17, 2007 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Trust me, I don't know what I'm talking about on this subject which is why I deferred to Juan Cole.
I take your point on the Yezidi, but there's this from wikipedia [I know]:
It is alleged by some[attribution needed] that during the regime of Saddam Hussein, Yazidis were considered to be Arabs and maneuvered to oppose the Kurds, in order to tilt the ethnic balance in northern Iraq,[citation needed] but this cannot be entirely substantiated. It is known, however, that the Yazidi's unique identity, despite being culturally Kurdish, was in fact used by the Baathist regime to isolate one from the other. However, both groups fought against Baathist troops, often in joint Peshmerga units. Since the 2003 occupation of Iraq, the Kurds want the Yazidi to be recognized as ethnic Kurds to increase their numbers and influence.
August 17, 2007 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I generally defer to Cole myself. But in this case we have an unattributed massive bombing right in the middle of a zone of Kurdish expansion? Who is kidding who?
The Yazidi are part of an ongoing regional contest.
August 17, 2007 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not in any sense useful--except perhaps as a kind of personal therapy. This kind of screed convinces no one, and adds nothing to the discourse. America with the k, been there, done that: how sixties . It didn't do any good back then, either, -- saved no lives, preserved no integrity, stopped no atrocities. Maybe then, too, it served as a kind of personal therapy.
"Wogs" which has a specific corrupt meaning but an English one, brought in for who knows what reason.
MJ offers an elegiac piece, an apology for those complicit in destroying Iraq from one who was not, and this kind of thing cheapens and debases it, and diverts attention from the atrocity which is Iraq to no purpose. How many Iraqis are saved by the Israel-Palestine analogy? There will be plenty of times to take this conversation down that road when MJ chooses to begin it in that direction. It will be microseconds now before persons here will be tossing Nazi and Fascist at each other. Thanks for nothing.
aMike
August 17, 2007 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
We don't mind: we're used to it. Happens all the time, and we're far less sensitive than the economists are. :-)
aMike
August 17, 2007 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
amike, I happen to believe that we need a shot of "therapy" now and then. A wake-up call, with lots of caffeine. Hot, straight and black, no cream or sugar please, and hold the fancy rhetoric.
One can make the case that the Iraqis, the poor shot-at Iraqis, are our Palestinians. Albert Champion makes that argument. We are, as he indicates, doing the bidding of the Israelis in the Middle East, and that includes a lot of killing.
Fellow bloggers, I support Albert Champion. Bring on the 0's and 1's. I look forward to them.
August 17, 2007 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Much as I agree with the general sentiment and believe the war to be illegal, and the inner administration circle involved directly in its prosecution to be criminals, I would like to leap to the defence of Edith Piaf.
The whole point about the song is the recognition of her own frailties, her successes and failures, good and bad, loves lost. She blames no one but herself, and would live her life the same (maybe?).
"Je repars à zéro..." and, the final line, "Aujourd'hui, ça commence avec toi!" affirming her appreciation of and attachment to her fans.
She rises far above the GWB's and the non-apologetic neo-cons of this world who are too cowardly to openly declare their real agenda.
[If accents don't print: "Je repars a zero..." and "Aujourd'hui, ca commence avec toi!"]
August 17, 2007 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Somebody at the DOD must have left that interview up to show what the dumb, ignorant, self-righteous, flaming a**hole sounded like in his drivel from 2003.
Understatement of the 2003 interview by Wolfie:
...there might be some inter-communal violence if he (Saddam) were removed.
August 17, 2007 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patrickm, how many active duty military tours have you or your fellow geo-political analysts at lastsuperpower spent 'draining' the 'mosquito swamp' in the Middle East? Bush and Wolfowitz aren't draining a swamp but creating a super sized one.
In the fifth year, are the mosquitoes diminishing or proliferating, has the draining process become plugged up with dead bodies? At half a trillion and counting, all paid for by the USA, how long do smart guys like you think we can afford to keep playing plumber in what used to be Iraq?
August 17, 2007 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if it has struck anyone else just how handy al Qaeda and their atrocities have been to the fortunes of Bush Inc.'s gang of Neo-Cons.
I’m sure it's just an innocent symbiotic relationship that finds al Qaeda doing just what Bush Inc’s policy makers need an enemy to do…and so on cue…
August 17, 2007 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hell, some of them were once Communists and/or the children of Communists, of the Trotsky sort mind you. I'd say they were Trotsky's revenge on the world's people.
August 17, 2007 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ouch...that one made my eyes sting! LOL
August 18, 2007 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for clarifying this. Being related to a fabulously successful economist I have evidence to the contrary. Aside from Krugman and a few here (and there) I would have used the term "sensitive" to describe an economist's acute ability to squeeze a buck.
The aforementioned explained that while historians are mainly "alpha" economists are primarily "numeric", boasting that they use the whole keyboard to advance their position.
When this person can drop a million on a flat in town as a convenience for late night business, it's hard to argue.
August 18, 2007 3:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh yeah? Well, well, he did have Weapons of Mass Destruction related aspirations.
-George Bush
(smirk)
August 18, 2007 5:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
For me, the worst of the war criminals is the guy General Franks called "the stupidest fuck on earth," Doug Feith.
And where is he today? Teaching at Georgetown University.
This is a metaphor for the decline of America. Kissinger wanted to go back to Harvard after leaving the State Dept, but couldn't because Harvard said no (the university feared riots). Kissinger, of course, was a big Harvard prof before going into government and, despite a later career as a war criminal, was a distinguished academic. Yet HU said "no."
Now I know Georgetown aint Harvard. But it's a Jesuit school. Jesuit! And it welcomes not just a war criminal but a fool with no credentials. And it does so knowing that in these days, the students will just go along.
The Feith appointment at Georgetown is the single most disturbing move of any of the Iraq war criminals. Georgetown! Society of Jesus! War criminal Douglas Feith! St. Ignatius of Loyola must be spinning.
August 18, 2007 5:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
aMike is fined $10.00 for forcing me to go to the dictionary to look up the word "elegiac," and finding this :
Etymology: Late Latin elegiacus, from Greek elegeiakos, from elegeion
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of two dactylic hexameter lines the second of which lacks the arsis in the third and sixth feet.
(*&&^%$#@
:-)
August 18, 2007 5:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hector
My wife and I went last evening to see Charles Ferguson's extraordinary film, "No End in Sight". I'd add just one friendly amendment to jophusa's (in my view) importantly correct suggestion: When you write to your representative and senators, urge them to see "No End in Sight". This week. And to pay attention, and to watch it through to the film's last words, from a US Marine who strkes me as an extraordinary human being.
August 18, 2007 5:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
"The liberation of the entire region is now on the agenda"
Oh, Jesus Christ. Finish junior high school first and then we'll talk. America is not somehow inherently on the good side simply by virtue of being America. We're the good guys when we act like the good guys. When we launch unprovoked "Shock and Awe" terrorist attacks on other nations and make alliances with guys like Musharraf, then we're the bad guys. Right now, in America, the biggest battle is the battle to capture and bring to justice the people who subverted our constitution and our democracy in order to launch an evil, ill-advised and illegal preemptive military action against a sovereign nation that had not attacked us or threatened to attack us (except in the criminally-paranoid minds of our neocon friends in power).
You must have some neighbor kids somewhere who need to be "liberated" from their mean mother or something, don't you? Have at it, hero. See you when you get out of jail.
August 18, 2007 6:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah - makes me think of all those swamps that were drained in Florida from 1920-1970. As a result of which vast areas of the state are turning into deserts and in many cases collapsing into sinkholes. Requiring a huge program to refill as many of the swamps as possible.
sPh
August 18, 2007 7:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Howard will have a 1500 word essay on this word posted by this afternoon ;-)
sPh
August 18, 2007 7:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
The worst part is that these people do not even hold themselves accountable. LBJ and McNamara suffered pangs of, I don't know, guilt, shame, anger, regret. Something.
What does Madeline Albright feel for the sanctions regime that made this invasion, if not inevitable, much more likely?
August 18, 2007 8:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
When you can write the script you do have the possibility of a symbiotic relationship that flowers. Imagine how effective a boogie man under the bed can be if used properly. It isn't like you have to worry about the boogie man actually coming out and refusing your script.
You might want to give a little thought to the close business relationship between the Bush's and the bin Ladens, and to the way Osama had such an easy time avoiding capture or killing by US forces.
Hoppy in Sacramento
August 18, 2007 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
"inevitable, much more likely?"
Who believes the invasion of Iraq was inevitable or much more likely? Certainly not Cheney who was pontificating against overthrowing Saddam, not only in 1992, but as late as 2000.
What made the invasion of Iraq inevitable?
August 18, 2007 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
sphealey,
HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHA
That's our Howard! :-)
August 18, 2007 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Bush enabler, John Yoo, is teaching Law at Berkley.
How the f**k did that happen?
Bush: "John, I need a legal opinion allowing me to create concentration camps."
Yoo: "Comin' right up Chief."
August 18, 2007 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ward Churchill was fired for his irresponsible comments regarding 9/11 and "little Eichmanns." (Officially, he was fired for academic misconduct, but no one can actually be naive enough to believe this cover story.)
Why shouldn't John Yoo be fired for his equally loathsome (and far more influential) defense of the Divine Right of Presidents and his encomiums to torture?
August 18, 2007 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
The appointment of George W. Bush to the Presidency?
Let's go in the wayback machine:
"Fuck Saddam, we're taking him out!"
or even further back:
"To be successful, you've got to be a war President."
August 18, 2007 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
a fancy way of saying that 6 people kick you in the arsis but #3 and #6 miss their target.
August 18, 2007 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
As distinct from the understanding of the sense of humor of computers, recognized by really good computer scientists and engineers: "If you ever encounter a computer with feet, never bend over near it."
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
August 18, 2007 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
The mind of Wingnutus Limbaughtomi: nothing bad is the fault of The Decider because we voted for him, ergo, blame the Iraq fiasco on Madeline Albright and her boss, Bill Clinton.
August 18, 2007 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
When I saw the title didn't know whether MJ knew the reference to Piaf's song until I read further.
I thought it an insult to link the too-tender-hearted Piaf in anyway with the ones Kurt Vonnegut accurately described as psychopaths.
Glad to see you stepped up to defend her -- and much better than I could have.
August 18, 2007 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
August 18, 2007 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't rule out some historical parallel. After failing in a coup in still-French Algeria, the Foreign Legion's 1st Parachute Regiment sang it, on their way to barracks where their unit was to be dissolved in disgrace.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
August 18, 2007 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's also the little problem that all the things I think of right away -specifics edited -- are all quite felonious.
I've been trying to stimulate y'all to the hard work of building a long-term civil movement of resistance, yet getting far few takers than total mis-understanders on the blog comment wires.
So it's not fear of the right-wing sociopaths in themselves, it's more the fear of the severe legal consequences, the disruption to the family and stability I have invested in the reality of my private life, and the fact that my daily habits are so pacificist and oriented towards fulfilling my obligations to my three jobs, at age 56, that to actually take steps in the directions of my war-like thoughts would completely overturn most of my carefully-constructed infrastructure of mental stability.
So although I know most everything necessary to be the leader of the underground army, in reality it cannot happen.
Yet I imagine a young person with little to lose ... Is America is so stable, that we are not five to seven years from some severe social strife?? (And I would definitely predict at least localized conflict if civilized systems fail to keep delivering food to the cities, anytime in the next generation or so.) Are we really that much more stable than say, Yugoslavia in 1985 or Northern Ireland in 1965?
August 18, 2007 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rating: Hilariously funny, yet more than a little dismissive of the complexity of the great wheel of all human history ...
August 18, 2007 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Every time a neocon gets athletes' foot he blames Bill Clinton.
August 18, 2007 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
An example from the early dawn of Dubya Dim's Administration, before their miserable failure to fulfill the honourably sworn duty of defending America. Back in the idyllic times Mr. Bush was best known as an abattoir for allegories. A Press Conference from February 22, 2001:
Even then, it was a black and white world for GW:
Have it my way,or
through the bomb bay...
August 18, 2007 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Much too simplistic of an analysis, that doesn't even begin to pierce the complexities, but is a vehicle enabling agitprop fantasies.
August 18, 2007 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll bet they didn't sing it as well as Edith.
August 18, 2007 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Probably not -- although I have to say that our military, if nothing else, has lots of great musicians. I met a colleague in his second career as a programmer, after he retired as arranger for the Army band.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
August 18, 2007 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
He was aptly given the appellation of Torture Yoo.
How many body guards does a guy like that need to protect him? We are scanning grandma's from Nebraska at the airports, and war criminals walk amongst us with no fear of the imagined multitudes of evil doers who supposedly threaten not just our air transport, but the republic itself.
August 18, 2007 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I read thru these posts again I noticed in your closing paragraph that you are making a classic western mistake that has played no small part in the ongoing tension between the middle east and the west. You make reference to European examples of police states. This desire in the west to use our history and our perspectives to measure those in the middle east is flawed. The are very different people with their own unique history & perspective. Western comparisons will therefore often prove to be very wrong & in fact can increase the tension by rightfully being seen as arrogant & ignorant.
August 18, 2007 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
No 0's for you, no 0's for Champion either, not from me. Especially no 0's for you...you're civil and clear in your defense of him. But my point remains pretty much what it was. We have all the room in the world for catharsis on this website...including personal blogs. I just don't believe it helps much to take everything written, no matter about what, into invective which doesn't relate to the primary post.
In this instance I suspect I was prodded by the fact that here, for once, MJ was writing about something other than the Israel and Palestine conflict. I rather liked that, and I'd like to see him broaden his focus. Every time he writes on his most frequently touched subject, however, the thread quickly becomes a mud in the sandbox party, and we pretty much all know who starts playing. . .they rarely, if ever, follow the writings of any other regulars here. Had A.C. stuck to the big-nose stuff and the Amerika with a k stuff, I probably wouldn't have done more than shrug and move on. But I really wanted people to stick with reflecting on Iraq, and chose my post as my tool to try to have that happen.
I've tried to be as clear in my explanation as you were in yours. Thanks for yours. I appreciate the civility of it.
aMike
August 18, 2007 8:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Back in the good old days we might be able to count on a straight-talking Marine to set straight a louse like this, but instead at Wolfy's retirement two years after the Vanity Fair interview we had General Peter Pace, soon to become the first Marine Chairman of the JCS.
The Pentagon transcript reads: "Pace called Wolfowitz a 'man of great intellect.' He said the deputy works hard and encourages collegiality. 'You are, in fact, a facilitator and a person who values the judgment of others. And for that, we thank you,' Pace said. The general said the deputy is also a man of great courage. 'Those of us who wear the uniform understand courage on the battlefield, but there's another very distinct form of courage, and that is intellectual courage,' Pace said."
It's not easy to use the word "courage" three times in one sentence after already using it once, but Pace had about run out of superlatives for the architect of Operation Iraqi Fiasco. Now it's time for Perfect Pete to say good-by. I'm sure he will be equally praised and get a nice medal.
August 18, 2007 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Juan Cole (Jan 2005):
"Feith has been questioned by the FBI in relation to the passing by one of his employees of confidential Pentagon documents to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which in turn passed them to the Israeli Embassy. The Senate Intelligence Committee is also investigating Feith. There seems little doubt that he operated in the Pentagon in such a way as to produce false and misleading 'intelligence,' that he created an entirely false impression of Iraqi weapons capabilities and ties to al-Qaida, and that he is among the chief facilitators of the U.S. war in Iraq. Feith is clearly resigning ahead of the possible breaking of major scandals concerning his tenure at the Department of Defense, which is among the more disgraceful cases of the misleading of the American people in American history."
August 18, 2007 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
One always tries to raise the tone. I think this time, from C to C#, was about it. I like the less technical... see Reference.com
Somehow I thought that of course all the posters here possessed reflective minds, and that Piaf's singing represents "emotions recollected in tranquility". MJ's post represented his version of tranquil...about three shades below 5.1 on the Richter Scale. <grinmode></grinmode>
(can I have the fine reduced to $6.99 with time off for good behavior?)
aMike
I am resisting with all my might punning on knowing one's arsis from one's feet. (I guess I failed, huh?)
August 18, 2007 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is not just the Yazidi, Valdron, and I know what you do in the Great White North, because once you you spoke of roots, ideals and goals in this namespace when I was watching. You probably have insight I am incapable of, which is the reason for this link drop.
The links lead to data produced by Iraq minorities that are getting their butts kicked from Baghdad up to the North on the Nineveh Plains. How's your old testament fact retention? Try Jeremiah and Jonah; at least as I recall, which isn't what I desire and think it should be, especially when reaching back this far into the past, but it still feels solid.
The Assyrians and The Turkemen are being butchered where not long ago was their little corner of Iraq. It's along the fault line which both Kerkuk and Mosul sit upon.
- Assyria National Assembly
- Christians Of Iraq
- Assyrian International News Agency
- Iraq Sustainable Democracy Project
- Turkmen Institute
- Iraqi Turkmen Human Rights Research Foundation
- Iraqi Turkmen: UNPO Report 08/06/1991
- European Turkmen Friendship Association
- Today's Zaman, August 7, 2007, "Turkmen town in Iraq hit by suicide bomb again"
Will Peace, friend, but keep your cartridges dry.August 19, 2007 2:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
This string reflects more of my recent sentiments than any I've seen in recent times. I've been left a bit blue by watching a discussion among Bill Maher, PJ O'Rourke and Ben Affleck on the relevance of the netroots and the potential to bring about change, as well as a lot of the rightwing dreck that is out there, and the most cogent, poignant whine going in my head comes from something a friend sent me the link to. Google or search for George Carlin education on YouTube if anyone wonders what kind of statement can actually make it into the public awareness. But there is still the question about what one can do to take it down short of the kind of post-apocalyptic burrowing into a non-existent underground that would take one completely off the economic page all of us are forced to sign for our daily keep. It would be easier if I were alone, but others depend on cog continuing to have the right number of teeth on it, with the right amount of space between, and turning at the same rpm as all the rest.
August 19, 2007 2:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
When Mgmax runs out of diversions to blame Clinton for Bush f**k ups, he'll start blaming FDR or Woodrow Wilson.
August 19, 2007 6:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
JohnW1141; by omission I conclude that you believe the effort of the Soviets and the other allies such as the U.S. in WW2 was worth it; if so then I conclude that at least we have a base from where we can potentially build a unity in a struggle by progressives and even conservatives against the sort of base reaction that was on display, as much on 9/11 as it was the other day in the mass terror bombings in Iraq’s north.
Valdron suspects the Kurdish peoples even though it is clear that the whole series of bombs were a coordinated attack and that Kurds were a major target. I suspect Al Qaeda (and it is not the case that an Al Qaeda cell always claims credit when it is them).
Al Qaeda is not a top to bottom fully functioning command and control organization. Nevertheless I have to concede that it may be just another variant of Sunni supremacist grouping that may even pass themselves off as nationalist that may be responsible. It matters not one fig. Those that did this are anti-proletarian and are the enemy of all progressives, they are the enemy of all modernity.
Yet that is not what the note that started this thread is all about! It is about holding the revolutionaries to account for liberating the Iraqi masses!
The U.S. is not always the enemy of the people of the world. Even Karl Marx once remarked during the civil war that the workers of the world were behind the stars and stripes. Was the civil war worth it?
We may have a wish that it were not required, but the overthrow of the slave system was the result and it has produced 150 years later, and after much more struggle and the inevitable suffering, a society where a black woman Condi Rice is described as the most powerful woman ever, and who could realistically be the next President. That is worthy social achievement.
If we support the overthrow of oppressors then we can agree that there are quite a few oppressive regimes that the modern era is still dealing with. The Taliban, Baath, Mugabe the situation in Sudan and Somalia and on and on.
Fortunately most countries will manage to overthrow their own ruling tyrants (like the Philipines did with the U.S. backed Marcos; or Indonesia from the U.S. backed Suharto; or Iran from the U.S. backed Shah; or Chile from the U.S. backed Pinochet etc) but sometimes it will be better for outside forces to begin the process. Outside forces can only ever begin the process because ultimately it remains up to the masses that live there to solidify the progress.
The U.S. post WW2 has mostly been the problem. Even when opposing the revisionist Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the U.S. did so from the stupid position of backing Al Qaeda etc!
However this U.S. ruling elite has grasped the historical lesson and changed course.
Yet people on this thread think themselves somehow progressive, but without a plan to fight the reactionary bombers and trying with all their efforts to start a region wide sectarian war. There is not a progressive bone in this failure to render assistance from such racist scum.
The Iraqi masses deserve support, as do the Palestinian people as Rice brings about a Palestinian state. All the tyrannies of the ME need to be undermined and the revolution sought by the peoples of the entire region supported.
But this thread just whines how terrible it is to call it a swamp with mosquitoes. (ie to use Noam Chomsky's term) Reflect on the Chinese revolution to grasp the time scale that we may be dealing with. You can bet your bottom dollar that it won't take as long to produce Iraq's equivalent of Condoleezza Rice.
Consider the forty years since the Zionists launched their now obviously failed war for greater Israel.
What ever you do stop whining and build unity with right-wingers against fascists. Look to the broad united front of WW2 for inspiration.
The enemy terrorize for a very good reason and no progressive ought play into their hands by undermining in any way the fight against such racist scum.
Whatever the history of how this war was started, it is, since the election process, irrelevant. The war is now clearly about defeating the most reactionary elements on earth.
As with the enemy of WW2 their viciousness will not save them and the masses will eventually prevail.
Patrick
August 19, 2007 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Roots, ideals and goals? Well, I try not to come within a country mile of those. Perhaps you were thinking of someone better than me.
Thanks for the links.
August 19, 2007 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Remember way back in 1999 when "W" was the Uniter. This Administration has divided us on every issue put before us. As this great post points out, the War is the worst issue of all. It is time for the people of this country to join together and simply put an end to it. Some still support the President and his rhetoric for War. Others believe that the War was wrong from the get go. But, now, all of us need to look at the results of the War as it is today. Somewhere close or more to a million people dead. A country is reduced to desert rubble. Life will not be the same for this country for at least a generation. How many more must die for an argument? Your idealogy, your politics, your personal beliefs are insignificant in the face of the reality of all the death, human damage and destruction. Stopping it all now is only sane solution. A different path must be taken.
August 19, 2007 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
"But few of us really do a goddam thing."Which is why John Conyers needs to start impeachment proceedings against Cheney, Bush, and Gonzo.Tom
August 19, 2007 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh dear God in heaven. You have the gall to talk about others having a problem with their way of thinking after typing stuff like this.Tom
August 19, 2007 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
The worst part is that these people do not even hold themselves accountable. LBJ and McNamara suffered pangs of, I don't know, guilt, shame, anger, regret. Something.
In Retrospect, Robert S. McNamara, 1996
from the preface:
"We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who participated in the decisions on Vietnam acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of this nation. We made our decisions in light of those values. Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why."
McNamara's 11 Lessons from Vietnam: [UNLEARNED Lessons, apparently]
1. We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.
2. We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience … We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.
3. We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.
4. Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.
5. We failed then — and have since — to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine.
6. We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.
7. We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement … before we initiated the action.
8. After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course … we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.
9. We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.
10. We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action … should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.
11. We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions … At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.
August 19, 2007 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
PseudoCyAnts,
I am glad you mentioned the Assyrians, Turkmen. You can also add Chaldeans and Armenians. Most Americans know little about the ethnic composition of Iraq. There are over a million Christians in Iraq. Many of them supported us. Many of them are refugees in Syria, Jordan, Turkey. We owe these people something. We should at least give them visas for destroying their lives.
August 19, 2007 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shame is a social phenomenon--we have induce it through public hearings and (hopefully) impeachment.
August 20, 2007 6:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have very little understanding of these minorities, and went looking for links a week or two ago, because it relates to a different issue I've been tracking and trying to understand: the Kurds and Turkey. I intentionally listed only non American based sites that had English translations in an effort to proffer immediate relevant information. I did not come across any Chaldean sites that fit this criteria, nor did I find any information that mentioned Armenians in Iraq.
Also, I did not post this for any religious reason, I claim no faith. Furthermore, I directly challenge the rectitude of anyone's Christian faith if they only care about this because Iraqi Christians are caught up in the middle of it. This is about atrocity and genocide; about the lies being fed to an acquiescent American people; about the destruction of an immeasurable amount of history from the very dawn of western civilisation that we may at this very moment be witnessing; about the responsibilities and blood debt that is now an inherent part of contemporary American citizenry. Each and everyone of us ARE RESPONSIBLE for the deeds of our unchained leviathan, because if we are not a government by the people, then America has ceased to be. NO ONE can claim absolution simply because they dissented. The dissent was anemic and wanting. ALL are blameworthy.
August 20, 2007 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
None of the people responsible for initiating the crimes in Iraq will ever personally pay any price for what has happened and none of them will be held accountable in a court of law for the crimes they are responsible for.
Very sadly, however, the American people for the next generation or more will pay for these crimes because all of them were committed in their name. The majority of Muslims globally will hate and loath America. The majority of people around the globe who opposed the idiotic nd immoral invasion of Iraq will disdain America and may never trust us again. God only knows how high a price our children will have to pay for this folly, but it will certainly be high. The only mystery is in how many ways will they pay? Will it be in blood, money, a bankrupt and disabled economy? It's uncertain how future Americans will pay for these crimes, but it is certain that pay we will.
And more's the pity since it clearly didn't have to be that way. People will look back years from now and speculate as to why we did nothing when we knew what our government was doing was wrong. They will wonder why the same people who, as young men and women, spoke out against war, were too complacent to act on their beliefs as they got older. They will wonder why we sat comfortably in our homes and gave no thought at all to the terrible consequences this massive criminal enterprise held for our children and grandchildren.
I think this is a clear case of the "sins of the fathers..."
August 20, 2007 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"They will wonder why the same people who, as young men and women, spoke out against war, were too complacent to act on their beliefs as they got older"Sorry, plenty of us anti-Vietnam war protestors have been out busting our butts trying to stop this insanity since before it started. So qualify what you are saying. Stop using "we". It is accurate to say not enough people protested but there are plenty of us worldwide who have tried. Look at the numbers from the worldwide 2/15/2003 protest. It was the largest coordinated protest ever.Tom
August 21, 2007 5:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is irresponsibly naive, and by naive, I am not referring to an endearing quality, but instead to an Arrogant Three Monkey World View.
"... it is clear that the whole series of bombs were a coordinated attack and that Kurds were a major target"
Do you honestly believe that all Kurds are bros with each other? The Yezidis practise a religion that strict Iraqi Muslims believe is a form of devil worship. There was recent infighting between Kurdish Yezidis and Kurdish Muslims.
As I posted earlier in this thread, this is all happening along the fault-line that is the yet to coalesce delineating border of the Kurdish controlled Northern Iraq. To most Americans, this is a fight between just three factions, The Sunni, The Shia, and The Kurds. In reality, all three of those factions are composed of smaller sub-factions, and there are many who are not part of the big three, who are caught up in the meat grinder, and have been previously ground up.
Then there is the PKK terrorist group, and anyone who claims they are not terrorist is either a bald faced liar, or an imbecile. Do you know what their dominant religion is? It's Revolutionary Marxism, and they've proved themselves devoutly faithful adherents to this ideology in the past, as they slaughtered Kurds in Southern Turkey who dared to dissent against the PKK. In veneration of Pol Pot, the PKK also has had a tendency to kill teachers.
The Former OSP planner and CPA Pentagon 'Political Officer', NeoConniving AEI fellow, Michael Rubin told Turkish Press representatives in Washington DC last year that Barzani was selling arms to the PKK.
Rubin exudes a horrific Ledeenesque odor. Why hasn't he been challenged by Conservatives in America for fomenting bitter dissent in our long-term ally, Turkey?
I am not attempting to whitewash Turkey's own past acts, and it does have its own share of blame for its previous mistreatment of Turkish Kurds, but the recent election showed that Turkey was willing to admit Kurdish representatives into parliament. Time will only tell if they choose to use this opening wisely, for the good of the people they represent, or if they attempt to politicise their new pedestal, mouthing Marxist rhetoric, which is certainly NOT representative of the predominantly Muslim Kurds who live in Southern Turkey.
The Kurds have greatly benefited in the past cycles of faux Iraqi Democratic process, touted so highly by the Bush Administration. The devastation of Fallujah disenfranchised almost the whole population in a major city for one election, which aided the Kurds. The Tel Afer offensive disenfranchised a significant number of Turkmen in a later election, to the benefit of the Kurds. There have been credible claims of voting improprieties in Kerkuk and Mosul, which again, aided the Kurds in the election process. It stretches credulity well past any likely probability in reality to claim that these were all just random events, which happened to break in the Kurds favor.
Was this enough for you? I've got plenty more, and you ain't no Pinball Wizard, so pull off your eyeshades, and take off your earmuffs, but please, go ahead and use the cork...
August 21, 2007 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Makes one wonder. . . Is Ahnold, a.k.a Conan the Republican, eligible for President of the European Commission? Brussels might devour that hunk of manly man.
aMike
August 21, 2007 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tom,
agreed.
The Dems seem to be playing a delaying game, scared sh*tless of doing anything 'controversial' that may cost them the White House or Congressional seats in 08.
Leahy's deadline for obeying the subpoena came and went, Leahy gave them another deadline.
August 21, 2007 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am sure there are persons within the DoD, who would be pleased to see Wolfowitz get what he should have coming. This is not the reason that this document still remains on their servers though.
Government produced public web product is generally considered to fall immediately into the public domain. This was a public post by a high-ranking pentagon official political appointee. If someone started to play memory hole with these posts, it would be noted, and the response would be strident. There would be no place to hide, as some of the most vocal opposition would be from within government bureaucracy itself, NARA and The Library of Congress.
Others would notice and get into the act. Most obvious of these would be The Internet Archive, The Federation of American Scientist's Secrecy news blog, authored by Steven Aftengood, and The EFF. Then Congress would be likely to get into the game for political reasons.
An attempt to hide data like this by deleting it would be counter-productive in that it would draw more attention to the document deleted than just leaving it with the rest of the documents. Safety in numbers.
August 21, 2007 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is really good to know. Thanks for this information. Is there a specialized search engine (similar to THOMAS) in Congress where one can track down this information. It would be a pretty useful thing to have, MHO. I know that individual agency websites are search-able, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to catch them all in one fell swoop, getting the materials alone without commentary on them as one gets using generic search engines...even ones with "advanced" search capabilities.
aMike
August 21, 2007 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
This may also be something of an oversimplification. It assumes that Vietnamese Society (and, for that matter, our own) are static, embedded in amber sorts of things. If practitioners of history like myself know anything, it is that no depiction of any group remains viable for very long. We compound this by having shorter and shorter historical attention spans.
A Borg is a Borg is a Borg, I guess. But the same isn't true about the Vietnamese people any more than it is true about us. A case in point: Last semester I had two undergraduate Vietnamese students in my class. A generation and a half ago, persons of my generation and their parents/grandparents were engaged in bitter combat. I would never have predicted I'd be teaching young Vietnamese men in 2006 when I began my career in 1972. Prowl around Vietabroader, and you'll see what I mean. I should add that students from my institution are studying there, as well.
The current number of young Vietnamese men and women studying here is in excess of 4,500, and it is growing by double digits.
(I don't know how many Borgs are studying here...could be more, could be less) <grin></grin>
aMike
August 21, 2007 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
The old saying: 'truth is stranger than fiction' is relevant here. As another example of feeding the snake its own tail, I offer a paragraph from Mr. Bush's State of The Union Address, January 20, 2004:
"Weapons of mass destruction-related program activities" is meaningless, because of its breadth.
This was the first time in a long while that a American Conservative had stated such strident concern for the UN's Image. At least since before the Reagan Administration. In fact, most Conservatives' complaints about the UN are centered around the concept that its proclamations are naught but "empty threats". Also of note here is the hard revisionist spin towards justifying the War Upon Iraq as being a war of "liberation". As I pointed out previously, this was refuted by Wolfowitz in June, 2003. An investigation into what Mr. Bush had said prior to the 2004 SOTU Address is illuminative. On the eve of the Iraq Invasion, March 17, 2003. Mr. Bush gave a televised address from the White House.
The whole address consisted of 1824 words. In it 'liberation was mentioned once, word #973. Liberty was spoken three times: word #1686, #1722, and #1747. In all four of these instances, the context was not regarding the causes justifying the invasion of Iraq.
In his remarks, Mr. Bush stated:
By June 9, 2003 Mr. Bush was not stating it with unequivocal terms, but he was still saying that Iraq had WMDs when it was invaded earlier that year. This was also before the emergence of Al Zarqawi as a primary foe, and Bush was all too happy to lean on him for the War's justification, and had begun to push Iraqi freedom as a justifiable cause for war:
At his appearance on MSNBC's Meet The Press, February 8, 2004, Mr. Bush had completely flip-flopped on the surety of intelligence:
Saddam would of if he could of is not a righteous justification for war, even by NeoConnivers' standards; hence the revisionary claim of Iraqi Liberation.
August 21, 2007 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I learned to have affection for Vietnamese in my tour as a conscript chopper doc, and whenever I'm up around San Jose, I usually visit a business or two which are owned and predominantly frequented by Vietnamese/Americans. On the other hand, the North was much different from the South. It is impossible for me to accurately express the alien-like feelings I'd got when realising just how cheaply they valued an individual's life in the scheme of things. More often than not, American GIs preferred to go waist deep into a fetid rice paddy than to step on a human carcass, even one that while living, had been an enemy. South Vietnamese felt much the same way towards there own or towards Allies, but not towards North Vietnamese. The NVA, and the Viet Cong, even more so, were willing to waste human life at levels unspeakably foul for simple tactical advantages.
I also believe that much of this attitude is/was related to a fundamentalist variant of Maoist communism that reached down to its blackened core to spawn the Khmer Rouge. There is nothing of value to be had from the boot of a totalitarian, be it left or right sided. People do not believe me when I tell them, but I am walkabout in the Dreamtime, and I drink from the very fount that nourishes its force, believing that All Humans are born equally in possession of liberty at birth, endowed by that which they perceive as the Creative with natural rights, and that three of these rights are life, liberty and a freedom to pursue their own happiness; and that whenever a State's actions become antithetical to these ends, it is the right, as well as the duty of the people to muzzle their leviathan, using whatever force is necessary to achieve this end. Now couple that with "against all enemies foreign or domestic". To say that I am presently prone to slip into a melancholic state of mind, would be to greatly understate the truth.
August 21, 2007 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eloquently said.
However, given the venal inadequacy of the Diems as leaders, or Ky, it was inevitable that the stronger North would prevail. And given that the North was the one that shed colonial fetters more thoroughly, they would be the more vigorous and unified. And given that Ho Chi Minh didn't get anywhere at and after Versailles, it was inevitable that he would look elsewhere than western states for allies in the search for independence. Communism was the viable alternative to unhelpful democracy. The example of Russia bootstrapping itself into modern industrial capability was persuasive, I guess.
A sc-fi story I read had a future Earth with some pretty vicious predator animals around. The explanation in the story was that if a predator goes extinct, the niche gets filled with something more effective. A reason to be more flexible about indigenous politics in evolving societies.
August 21, 2007 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Government sites are not set-up in a manner that allows you to easily search them all in one swoop. Clusty has a specialised government search, which I haven't really taken out for performance testing though. You may find it to be usable.
There are methods which you can directly access content stored by the Internet Archive. if you use Firefox as your default browser, it is very easy. if you use IE7, then you need to click through warnings to implement it, but it still works. I'll try to get something posted within namespace I exert personal control over soon that can show you how toimplement the function in your browser, but no promises. I have an open email channel accessible through my member profile stored here at TPM Cafe. If you desire the data soonest, it's probably the best method to achieve it.
If you already are familiar with the concept called 'bookmarklets' for Firefox, and 'favelets' for IE, then it is a breeze. Let me know, because if you are aware of it, I may be able to just just it in a post. I use it often. It is an excellent research tool that cannot be properly compared to Thomas, which I also use often, as well as the GPO Access site, which has search methods that are arcane.
As for accessing Aftergood's Secrecy blog, I use the provided Atom news feed, and my present preferred Newsreader Program to access it. Just being kept up to date on the newest CRS Reports that FAS is serving makes it a worthwhile read.
August 21, 2007 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
FOREIGNID: 290390
FOREIGNPARENTID: 290118
FOREIGNCOMMENTERID: 10973
AUTHOR: moat
DATE: 08/21/2007 03:20:43 PM
August 21, 2007 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't agree more with you, but when I say "we" I mean everyone and certainly not myself or we who have protested the war. I have attended every protest that has been held where I live (and some I have traveled to get to) including those leading up to the illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq, but simply because some of us took part in the largest one-time protest ever doesn't mean a whole lot. I have been there on cold days and hot days, dry and wet days when many others have chosen to stay home. The point of protest is that it must be sustained over time. One of the reasons (not the only reason) that the protests against the war have been so effectively marginalized despite the very large numbers that have been involved in a couple of them is because they were not sustained. If large protests continued, that would be very different than what we have seen occur since just prior to the invasion.
While millions of us have done something to publicly protest the war, there are many millions more who have done nothing. If we (collectively) were willing to do what is necessary to put real pressure on the politicians to end the war we would be doing a great deal more protesting on a far more frequent schedule.
Many, particularly blogophiles like to say protests don't mean anything or don't work, but they are wrong IMHO. History shows quite clearly that public protests are very, very effective and not just in the 1960's. I believe that is just a convenient out for those who would rather note their opposition on a blog or sign an e-mail circulated petition.
When protests are widespread and sustained they put pressure on elected and appointed officials in a very unique and effective way. A way, I might add, that all the blogging and letter writing and e-mail sending in the world cannot do. But that's just my opinion.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to have more world wide coordinated protests, but especially in the US. Frankly, I am surprised at how willing so many of us are to simply accept the situation while registering our disapproval but are unwilling to really go beyond that point.
August 21, 2007 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink