Excellent post MJ. I read this earlier at IPF and linked to it in my own TPM Cafe Blog.

My blog also links to a column in today's Haaretz by Jerome M. Segal, in which he lays out a comprehensive multi-step peace process that anticipates participation by Hamas. I'd love to know what you think of Segal's recommendations. Segal's column can be linked to directly here.

[If that short-cut doesn't work, this is the direct link to Segal's column: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/881393.html]

Nice work MJ. Ciao.

Bruce

Regarding Lybia, their agents didn't shoot down a plane, the plane was blown up.

And a Scottish judicial review board recently ruled that the case against the Lybians was tainted by US and British manipulation of the evidence and is “a miscarriage of justice”.

Also read here.

Now that we are pals with Lybia, expect new evidence to arise showing Iranian complicity in the Lockerbie bombing.

Thanks, Bruce. Segal's piece is great and I added a link to it too.
Thanks for flagging it for me.

The idea that there are no Palestinian moderates makes as much sense as the equally ridiculous idea that there are no Israeli moderates.
In fact, according to every poll, 2/3rds of the respective populations of each accept the right of the other to statehood and security.

You guys just don't get it. You're suckers in a twocard monte game, where you keep trying to find "peace" under one of the cards, and you keep betting and hoping whilst more Palestinians are ethnically-cleansed and more Jewish-only settlements expand on their lands.

Here's the absolute, incontrovertible fact:

Israel does not want peace.

Israel wants land.

And Israel is willing to do whatever is necessary to get more land.

If that means attacking and murdering Palestinians and stealing their land, so be it.

If it means distracting everyone with all this nice-nice talk about peace whilst Israeli occupation zones continue to "naturally expand" and "spill over" into yet more Palestinian land, so be it.

And once they're done wiping out the Palestinians, they'll go to work on stealing the lands of the Lebanese, Egyptians, Syrians or whoever else happens to own their "Greater Israel" - all the while moaning about how they're the victims and how they really just want peace.

Why do you think the Israelis have consistently dismissed Arab peace efforts, violated cease fires and intentionally provokes uprisings? Why do you think that the Israelis refuse to declare their own borders?

Look, the Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion have admitted this themsevlves, Its not a secret:

"Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interests was self-defense. To a large extent, the creation of the state was an act of self-defense. . . . Many think that we're still at the same stage. But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defense. As for setting the borders--- it's an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in our history, there all kinds of definitions of the country's borders, so there's no real limit. Bo border is absolute. If it's a desert--- it could just as well be the other side. If it's sea, it could also be across the sea. The world has always been this way. Only the terms have changed. If they should find a way of reaching other stars, well then, perhaps the whole earth will no longer suffice." (1949, The First Israelis by Tom Segev, p. 6)

It is about time you opened your eyes. At some point you;re going to have to face facts. What is it going to take?

In "Israel" there is a town called Giv‘at Shaul Bet. Google it. Check to see what was its prior name. Look into what happened there. That is Israel.

The Israelis killed everyone, took the land, settled Jews on the bloodstained land belonging to the murdered Palestinians, and changed the town's name. In the Knesset, Yaakov Meridor proudly exclaimed: "Thanks to Deir Yassin, we won the war!" and encouraged more ethnic cleansing of innocent palestinian farmers from their lands and Israel expanded. And that happened all over Israel, and has been happening everyday since. It happened yesterday. It will happen again tomorrow.

That is Israel.

All this talk about whether there are moderates or not etc, is just distractions to keep you entertained while more expansionism goes on. When are you going to face facts?

I dunno. I like to stay clear of Palestinian/Israel issues. Don't like the company really. Even tangentially skirting it can be awkward.

But a few observations. Peace with Syria doesn't make Hamas or Hezbollah go away. These are indigenous grass roots organizations which will remain active and virulent.

Second, getting Syria to cut off Hamas or Hezbollah is a nice thought, but then what? Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah will wither away. Instead, they'll likely become more radical, beholden to know one, or they'll move further into Iran's orbit.

The trouble with a Hamas and Hezbollah primarily in Iran's orbit is that Iran is a lot tougher nut for Israel to crack than Syria is. Syria's right next door, its practically destitute, and its a pushover.

Iran is two countries away, its rich, and its not a pushover. Lots of immunity, lots of insulation to protect it. Which means that there's a lot less moderating influence and a lot more radicalizing influence on Hamas and Hezbollah.

Assad's ass was always on the line if Hamas and Hezbollah got too far out of hand. He knew he could be taken out. No one is taking out Tehran. There's nothing to inspire the Iranians to rein in Hamas and Hezbollah.

To the extent that Assad had influence, he used it to keep a lid on things. End that influence... maybe not such a good idea.

Also

One caveat, however: Israel cannot make peace with Syria over the prostrate body of Lebanon. Any Israeli-Syrian deal has to provide for Lebanon's independence and security.

I'm glad Israel is such a great defender of Lebanon.

What was that country again that invaded Lebanon last year, targeted and killed thousands of civilians, targeted and destroyed billions of dollars of civilian infrastructure, caused an environmental catastrophe in the Mediteranean, and dropped cluster bombs all over southern Lebanon?

The name of it is at the tip of my tongue. Oh well, it'll come to me.

Hi all,
Does anybody actually read what MJ actually say?
Not a single word make any sense.

"Is it better to negotiate after violence returns to Israel's major cities"

The reason that there is no violence is not for the lack of trying, it's because of fence and because Israel doesn't allow Gazafication of West bank.

"when the Iranians (or even Al Qaeda) are playing major roles? "

Iranians are already playing major role.

"they are in a position to demand more than they are asking for now."

So what they are asking now? What they might ask later?

"The only one that matters is stopping the violence"
There is very little violence against Israel.
Thanks to Sharon, Palestinians lost Second Intifada.

"And enough with the hypocrisy from the United States"
US were hypocritical in WW2. Do you have a problem with this? They supported one
murderer, Stalin, but not another murderer Hitler.

"Why doesn't that apply to Hamas if it agrees to end all attacks on Israel?"
They can't do too much anyway. They practically stopped attacking Israel because they can't do much.

MJ, as useful idiot, wants to help Hamas to re-arm and take over West Bank.
You might think that Israel has stupid leadership but not that stupid.

So, I don't mind negotiating with Hamas, but it's very tricky issue.
It seems to me that M.J. doesn't have a clue about real issues in such negotiations.

Lebanon was nicely rewarded for getting rid of Syrian military presence which would give some pause to Israeli attacks all over her teritory.

We also cannot make our mind: should Lebanese Army be armed sufficiently well to be a significant force? Either it is weak enough to assure that any Israeli incursion as a walkover (at least, as far as the resistance of Lebanese Army is concerned), and accidentally, it is too weak to take on Hezbollah, or it is made credible and strong enough to take on Hezbollah, but also to resist Israel. Case in point: an umbrella of solid air defence can be a strong inducement for southern Lebanese to defer to the protection of the government.

As it is, Lebanese military barely prevailed against ca. 50 militants of a fringe movement.

By the way, Iran will not necessarily stay forever "two countries over". That's why Iraqi occupation is such a deep shit. We are bleeding to postpone a debacle. However, I am not sure where is the chicken and where is an egg here. Iran perceives us as a threat, so it feels a need to gather all malcontents in respect to our power (our our proxies). We view the support of those malcontents as hostile, so we keep threatening them.

Which is somewhat stupid given that we actually have common interests. Number one, the flood of Afghan heroine is a serious problem in Iran, while narco-warlords are a destabilizing force in a place that we would rather keep stable. Iran actually offered to finance (and conduct?) a very extensive crop-substitution program, an offer that was rejected. Neither of us is fond of Salafist militants. If we prefer a bit too stong states to the anarchy of fallen states, Iran filling power vacuum in Iraq after our withdrawal would be a good development.

However, in the vicinity of Israel, we would rather have a fallen state than a bit too strong one. This is the easiest way for the only remaining superpower to loose a war: have a bunch of mutually contradictory goals.

"Not targeting civilians my ass."
Stop thinking with your ass, please use your head instead.
"In addition, Hezbollah fighters can be difficult to identify as many don't wear military uniforms.[9] However, it has been widely reported that the majority of the Lebanese killed were civilians"
Widely reported based on what? Hisbolla propoganda?
"The dead include about 270 Hezbollah fighters " is obviously extremly low number if you use your head instead of your ass.
In any case, you were wrong talking about thousands civilians killed. Hundreds of civilians were killed not thousands (if you do the math using your head).
There is no hint of evidence that they were targeted. Articles you pointed to, don't support your claim that civilians killed in the war were targeted.

You are correct, fatalities were not in the thousands, but around a maximum of approximately 1200 to 1100 Lebanese were killed.

By most accounts, the vast majority of them civilians. According to UNICEF approximately 30% of them were children.

The targetting of civilians is seen in the indiscriminate, or perhaps the carefully discriminating manner of the bombing.

Thousands of civilian houses were struck. What's that, oopsies? How do you accidentally or inadvertently strike tens of thousands of houses.

Targets included civilian infrastructure, water, power, roads, etc. More oopsies?

What were all those cluster bombs dropped in civilian areas? More oopsies?

From the initial Wikipedia:

...Amnesty International identified the destruction of entire civilian neighbourhoods and villages by Israeli forces, attacks on bridges with no strategic value, and attacks on infrastructure indispensable to the survival of the civilian population... They also stated that the Israeli actions suggested a "policy of punishing both the Lebanese government and the civilian population....

Human Rights Watch condemned both sides for failing to distinguish between civilians and combatants, violating the principle of distinction, and accused both of committing war crimes. They criticized... Israel's use of unreliable cluster bombs – both too close to civilians areas – suggesting that they may have deliberately targeted civilians..[120][110] UN humanitarian chief Jan Egeland said Israel's response violated international humanitarian law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War

Notably:

Strikes on Lebanon's civilian population and infrastructure include Rafik Hariri International Airport, ports, a lighthouse, grain silos,[49] bridges, roads, factories, ambulances and relief trucks,[50] mobile telephone and television stations,[51] fuel containers and service stations,[52] and the country's largest dairy farm Liban Lait.

An "initial assessment" Amnesty International report on Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure states that "the evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of public works, power systems, civilian homes and industry was deliberate and an integral part of the military strategy, rather than "collateral damage"

UN Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and declared that the "horrific" leveling of "block after block" of buildings in Beirut "makes it a violation of humanitarian law."[55] Mr Egeland added that one third of the Lebanese dead were children.

There have been numerous reports of attacks on fleeing civilians.

Then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2006_Lebanon_War

Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in a statement from Rome that he was " ... shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces."[74] On 26 July 2006, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert phoned Kofi Annan and expressed his deep regret over the death of the four UN observers. He promised that Israel would thoroughly investigate the incident and would share the findings with Annan, but says he was taken aback by secretary general’s statement saying that the Israeli attack on the UN post was "apparently deliberate". After the attack, Dan Gillerman, Israel's UN representative, said Israel would not allow the UN itself to participate in an investigation of the airstrike that killed the four UN observers

Hmmm something to hide?

Or explain this:

An Indonesian migrant worker in Lebanon was killed on 11 July due to Israel missile attack.[59] Seven Canadian members of a Lebanese family from Montreal, including four children, were killed and six severely injured by an Israeli attack on Aitaroun in South Lebanon on 16 July. An eighth member of the family died later from injuries sustained in the blast.[60] A family of four Brazilians, including two children, was killed in the Israeli bombings in Srifa,[61] drawing condemnation from foreign relations minister Celso Amorim.[62] Another Brazilian child was killed in an Israeli strike in Tallousa.[63] Four members of a German-Lebanese family, including two minors, from Mönchengladbach, Germany were killed in an Israeli airstrike in Chehour in southern Lebanon while on vacation.[64][65] A Brazilian businessman was killed in an IAF missile attack on a factory he owned in Lebanon.[67] A Nigerian domestic worker was killed during an airstrike as he rode his motorbike south of Tyre on 27 July in an Israeli air raid.[70] An Indian glass factory worker in Lebanon, Devendra Kumar Swain was killed on 21 July by an Israeli bombing.

What do all these people have in common, apart from their international status? They were civilians in civilian areas.

Very clearly, they were not Hezbollah. They were not combatants. They had no intention of being anywhere near Hezbollah.

They did not go to war. The war came to them. Israel's bombs came to their civilian neighborhoods.

Don't tell me that a country's military which can easily blow up an old man in a wheelchair on the steps of a mosque has suddenly become so incompetent that it can't help but blow up endless civilian targets in an effort to hit the bad guys.

What, did Mr. Magoo join the IDF? Israel was on its national stupid pill week?

No, sorry. I'm going to assume that Israel's Defence Forces were their usual supremely competent selves.

I'm going to assume that Israel's air force was not at that time piloted by monkeys and downes syndrome patients dropping bombs while they masturbated.

Rather, I'm going to assume that these were highly professional world class pilots flying state of the art machines, making use of GPS systems, laser targetting systems, satellite and aerial photography and some of the most sophisticated technical intelligence in the middle east. And I'm going to presume that they were firing precision bombs and missiles, laser guided smart weapons, etc.

All of which means that we must assume if they hit something, they had some idea what it was and they clearly meant to hit it.

Which means that if they destroyed tens of thousands of civilian houses, deployed cluster bombs in civilian areas, destroyed factories, dairies, civilian infrastructure that had no possible military application, and killed at a minimum, several hundred or around a thousand civilians... then that's probably what they set out to do.

Now, I really have nothing but contempt for you, Davai. I feel no urge to have a discussion with you, and I feel that there's no fruit to be born of that discussion. In my view, you're merely seeking a platform to vent racism and dishonesty. Please go vent it on someone else.

I will not be replying further to your provocations.

deleted

mj, there ya go again, posting another column guaranteed to attract the fringe.

This column looks like it will be a 250 reply generator. :-)

On July 14, 2007 - 2:48am davai said:
Dear Valdron,
Your original statement
"targeted and killed thousands of civilians"
was wrong. You corrected your original statement:

"You are correct, fatalities were not in the thousands, but around a maximum of approximately 1200 to 1100 Lebanese were killed."

" feel that there's no fruit to be born of that discussion"

There is a fruit, we corrected mis-information.

Thank you for correction.

- Davai.

On July 13, 2007 - 11:14pm davai said:

MJ, as useful idiot, wants to help Hamas to re-arm and take over West Bank

If you value correcting mis information as you seem to imply, I suggest you correct the above regarding what MJ wants vis a vis Hamas.

OK, There is no a hint of evidence that Israel tried to kill them. There is plenty of evidence that Israel tried to minimized the number of civilian casualties. You can argue that Israel could do a better job or Israel was negligent but not that Israel tried to kill civilians.

"The idea that there are no Palestinian moderates makes as much sense as the equally ridiculous idea that there are no Israeli moderates."

Name three Palestinian moderates.

In positions of authority.

"That is why there never will be peace. The rightwing Jews dont want it."

Yeah, they keep sending pregnant women to blow up buses and stuff like that.

MGMAX, you don't know diddly about the Middle East, as is evidenced by your posts. I see that you also post to defend Cheney and oppose impeachment. You are deadwrong there too (standard rightwing stuff) but you seem to know your stuff. Stick to impeachment. You add nothing here. Note 1300 Palestinian bystanders have been killed by the Israeli army since that one pregnant terrorist got on a bus. But, to types like you, the only good Arab is a dead Arab or one who collaborates with Israel.
Davai is a dummy on everything (6th grade education, all D's) but you seem to know your Constitution and use it deftly in your failed attempts to defend Dick Cheney,

" Note 1300 Palestinian bystanders have been killed by the Israeli army since that one pregnant terrorist got on a bus. "

I'm guessing it's a lie.
How many terrorsists were killed? I'm never heard from defenderers of terrorist acts any numbers.
I suspects that they are trying to include terrorists/feedom fighters in overall number of Palestinians casualties.

That's Mister Loony to you.

Valdron, work on your self-esteem issues. I don't agree with you but I'd never compare you to Davai.

mj, you seem to be using the Bush "flypaper" tactic.

(here goes another nickle to Josh)

I think that this is the most sophisticated discussion Davai has ever had.

My bad

There's no shame in being wrong.
There's only shame in refusing to learn from it.

So, you still arguing that one of the most sophisticated air forces in the world went all Willy Wonka when they crossed the Lebanese border?

Suddenly, they couldn't tell a dairy farm from a Hezbollah command center? They mistook a water pumping station for a weapons factory? A civilian apartment building for a training camp? Intelligence was that good, was it?

Mahmoud Abbas
Salam Fayyad
Hanan Ashrawi

Valdron, Be a good sport not a sore loser.

I'm just amused by the thought of Hezbollah maintaining a Doctor Evil style headquarters filled with cows and milking machines.

"Achmed, we must plan our suicide bombing operation, get over there."

"Mustafa! I cannot, Bessie is about to drop a calf!"

"All right, who is the joker who substituted dried cow patties for plastic explosives. Was it you Hamad?"

"Ayieee, effendi, we are running out of places to put them!"

Yeah, right. This is the rich vein of paranoid idiocy that I usually associate with Clinton murder theories.

Don't know how long this will last but in the current economy pageviews = dollars. Any viewer that you can show, by their commenting, equals solid dollars. If that commenter brings further pageviews and more comments, well... all the better. Doesn't matter what's said.

I don't know TPM's finances but I do know the intertubes. MJ, if you're worried you're not a net positive for TPM... don't. Your threads get more comments than most. Advertisers don't care what those comments say. Not at this point. You're provoking people. And everytime the angry ones get provoked, they drop pennies to Josh.

In the current economic environment, the best thing you could do to help Josh would be to... provoke more. C'mon! Say something that really gets the crazies obsessed with TPM!

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

The link you pointed to is talking about
"Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure"
I'm not arguing this point.
Israel didn't try to kill civilians in Lebanon.
US are not trying to kill civilians in Afganistan.

"you are actually condoning that every Israli civilian death = 20 Lebanese deaths? "
I'm not condining anything.
Facts are facts no matter what are the implications. Facts are not liberal they are not rasists, they are just facts.

I corrected Valdrons original statements about targeting and killing thousandS civilians.
He accepted an error and corrected himself.

So, what's your point? Why so much hatred for setting fact straight?

uh oh, Abdul-Hass,

Davai has taken what you wrote at face value. What does your secret spy Zionist decoder ring tell you that means?

First, lets decode your use of Zionist code language:...

We've discussed you penchant for self aggrandizing "code" breaking. But I'm wondering, have you ever considered, before exercising your "skills" at reading between the lines, actually reading the lines themselves?

It seems, more often than not, you refuse to acknowledge or respond to what has actually been written and, instead, launch into a screed about what you assume the author meant. In the times you've responded to something I've wrote, you have badly misjudged the the thoughts behind my statements.

You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

No, they murder Rabin and commit genocide on Jenin instead.

Davai, allow me to clarify something for you: when you indiscriminately bomb civilian targets not caring who or what you're bombing as Israel did, you INTEND to kill civilians, even if you may not necessarily DESIRE to do so.

Let me make it clearer: if you shoot a gun into a crowd, you INTEND to kill, even if you don't necessarily desire to kill the particular person you shot.

See, there is no big moral difference between targeting and killing civilians, or indiscrminately bombing people without caring whether they;re civilians or not. Israel clearly and without any doubt engaged in indisrciminate bombings on a mass scale in Lebanon.

Oh, incidentally, the old "They use civilians as sheilds so we had to kill all of them indiscriminately" excuse does not wash. In fact that did not happen. Secondly, even if it did happen and civilians were used as human sheilds, then the law of war says that you CANNOT target them if it doing so would result in disproportionate civilian casualties. Finally, note that this is the favorite excuse of the atrocity-monger: Israel firs denied, then justified shelling the Qana refugee camp by claiming that the Hezbollah was hiding among the civilians. Israel terrorists also tried to defend the mass murder of Palestinian civilians a Deir Yassin village by claiming that since "Arab Irregulars" had supposedly been dressed as women, it was therefore necessary to kill the women along with othre civilians.

No I am a realist but being neither Arab nor Jew I don't have a ball in this game so I can point out the incontrovertible facts and let the likes of you and Davai and pfakin who endorse ethnic cleansing and mass murder and genocide suffer for it.

Avi Shlaim explained the mentality of the likes of Sharon who intentionally provoke conflict in order to build their "Greater Israel" here (link)

Because murdering racist expansionists, by definition - want more land and are not satisfied with what they have. Because if Israel ever stops fighting Arabs Israel would probably fall apart from its own internal contradictions (who murdered Rabin? A fellow Zionist) Because the current state of Israel has not yet achieved the full extent of the mythical Eretz Israel (Greater Israel) that Sharon and his ilk desire.

"The conflict is about Israel's claimed "right" to expand and steal land from Palestians "

I think that the conflict is about Israel's claimed "right" to keep land "stolen" already from Palestians in 1948. It seems to me that you insist that Israel give all that "stolen" land back and Israel refuses to do so.

"Can we really call Israel our home when we displace other's homes?"

I see you agree with Abdull that Israel has to be destroyed because Jews displaced other's homes in 1948

Nope, sorry, I will decode the Zionist spin and code words and won't allow you and your ilk establish the frame in which issues are discussed.

Your not discussing issues at all. You're just assuming that people mean something other than the plain meaning of their actual words and then launching into whatever diatribe you want.

If you wish to establish your own frame, that's one thing, but you should try sometime doing it around the actual issues that are in discussion.

Let's try it.

I say, Jews in the Middle East have a legitimate concern that in a one state solution, their basic human rights would not be protected. These rights I speak of are not religious rights, they are rights such as the right to purchase land, the right to vote, and the right for women to have equal access to the same rights and responsibilities as the men around them do. Like wise, Palestinians in the territories have 40 plus years of experience that indicate they cannot be assured of these rights either. I say, because of this, a two state solution is the only way for all the people there to have these basic rights protected.

And, in response to these thoughts, you would say what?

Let me make it clearer: if you shoot a gun into a crowd, you INTEND to kill, even if you don't necessarily desire to kill the particular person you shot.

I think you're confusing "malice" with "intent".

I don't know what country you live in, but in a Western legal set up (England and America at least) murder is defined as the killing of another human with at least one of four types of "malice". These are

1) Intent to kill
2) Intent to cause grave bodily damage
3) Willful and wanton conduct
4) During the commission of an inherently dangerous felony (like an armed bank robbery)

So, in your example, if you shoot a gun into a crowd, without the intent to kill, you don't have "intent" but, you do have "malice" (#3 -- willful and wanton conduct) and if someone dies, it is a murder.

Now, before you go off half cocked, keep in mind, I'm bringing this up only to clarify your comments on the issue of "intent" in regards to murder. I have not, and have never, in these discussions, defended any particular actions taken by any of the players in the region. There is no "Zionist code" going on here. There is no history being rationalize or challenged. From what I can see, there is plenty of criminal behavior to point to from all sides of this conflict. Over the years there have been thousands of civilian casualties on all sides due to murder of one form or another.

I'm not asking for your response (I have little reason to hope it would be an appropriate one). But I am hoping you can take these words to heart and think about them.