Actually Abrams is Podhoretz's step son-in-law. His wife is the daughter of Moshe Decter, another neocon. She was adopted by Podhoretz after some internal neocon split over "black anti-semitism" and the New York school system produced an ugly divorce.
Decter was not a racist, just a neocon. Podhoretz made his name with a 1963 article about how blacks drove him nuts.

To see the usual anti-Israeli crowd bleating once again is endlessly humourous. However, it will be a lot more interesting to see what happens when Egypt, Jordan, Abbas and Olmert meet in Egypt. I don't notice any neo-cons nor anti-Israeli Americans in attendance just people who actually have something at risk.

You have to love a sight in which Palestinian kills Palestinians, Israel takes in refugees and it is all about what Israel should do.

Those who attack Podhoretz are merely his left-wing counterparts.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

jdledell,

MJ - Your posting contains a lot of common sense which is probably why it will not be followed.

I hope you're not too disappointed.... 

Yediot Ahronot,

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has drafted a proposal to help support the new Palestinian Authority emergency government, headed by Salam Fayyad, which includes formal recognition, as well the release of hundreds of millions of dollars in funds. The cabinet will vote on the proposals at its weekly meeting, Sunday....

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni (Kadima) and Defense Minister Ehud Barak (Labor) support the proposal, which is expected to pass during Sunday's meeting, despite criticism from certain cabinet members such as Minister of Strategic Affairs Avigdor Lieberman (Yisrael Beiteinu).  "It's already been proven that the transfer of funds and weapons to Fatah is used to aid terror, not fight it. Even if we give Abbas F-16s, he has no chance to succeed," Lieberman said.  Vice Premier Eli Yishia, of Shas, disagreed with him. "Considering that the transfer of funds is meant to strengthen Abbas and not a government with Hamas elements, we will support the Prime Minister's proposal.

Me suspects...

Jar Jar Binks goes name-dropping.  How delightful.

Regardless of what MJ, Yossi Belin and others may think, terrorist leader and Holocaust denier Abbas has no more interest in building a peaceful Palestinian state than does the HAMAS. More terror operations are carried out by the FATAH-(and Abbas-)affiliated "Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade" than the HAMAS. He, like HAMAS is committed to a long-term war of attrition against Israel.
He has never said he will agree to peace with Israel on anything like terms Israel could ever agree to. He has insisted on the so-called Right of Return. I maintain that he is happy that HAMAS took over Gaza. He now is considered an "international statesman" and will have money showered on him, but he will claim he is "weak" and can't do anything about terrorism or the HAMAS in Judea/Samaria so he will have none of the responsibilities of power while enjoying all its perqs.
Any money given to him will go down the sinkhole of corruption. Any weapons given to him will end up being used against Israel or in the hands of HAMAS, as we saw in Gaza. Michael Oren and many others have written this in recent days. The HAMAS victory in Gaza is an earthquake and its again seems to show that Islamic extremism is on the march and winning one victory after another.
However, looking at commentary in Israel in the last few days, it seems many (most?) of those who supported the Oslo fantasy now realize there will never be a Palestinian state, Israel MUST control Judea/Samaria and eventually Gaza also, Israel is doing the Arabs a FAVOR by doing this, and it is in the Arab's interest (although they will realize this and yet curse Israel at the same time - just like polls in Iraq show majorities supporting attacks on US forces there and also opposing an American withdrawal-truly Orwellian doublethink!). "Democracy" and "self-determination" are irrelevant concepts for the Arabs, the Israeli-Arab conflict is a zero-sum game.

Someone in this group recommended the blog
www.angryarab.blogspot.com
and I have learned A LOT about how the Arabs, particularly educated Arabs think. I urge everyone here to read what is written there and the comments. MJ's approach to dealing with the Arab/Israeli conflict has nothing to do with reality. His mistakes are just like Bush's mistakes and both Bush and MJ's crowd have brought misery to the Middle East. It is time everyone wake up and face world AS IT IS, and not has how we want it to be.

Zionista - The release of Palestinian tax funds was already a foregone conclusion. The recognition the article talks about is nothing more than stating that Israel recognizes Fayyad as the legitimate Palestinian Prime Minister instead of Haniyeh. Big whoopy ding. Israel will have to do a LOT more if they want Abbas to survive. Frankly, the only thing that will save Abbas is the start of final status negotiations. I'm sure that will be his demand at this conference.

I don't think your characterization of Abbas is accurate. But if you feel Abbas is too weak a leader, why not advocate the release from Israeli prision of Marwan Barghouti, a Fatah leader who has a lot of clout and has campaigned against corruption (even criticising Arafat)? He is almost universally admired among Palestinians and could do so much to bring along the Palestinian public to move away from Hamas and toward hopes for a functioning and secular Palestinian state living in peace with Israel.

But I don't think that you'll actually advocate for Barghouti's release; you belied your true intent when you talked about how Israel needs to retain all of the OTs. That's what it's really all about, isn't it? And don't bother going into the "terrorism" litany. After all, Begin (among other Israeli PMs) was a terrorist too, and no one in either the U.S. or Israel raised an eyebrow.

Additional reading on Barghouti, for those who are unfamiliar with him:

• "Free Barghouti" (recent Haaretz editorial)
  
• "Marwan Barghouthi issues statement from prison cell" (June 19, 2007 article from the International Middle East Media Center - Palestine)
• "Want Security? End the Occupation" (January 2002 editorial by Barghouti in The Washington Post, re-published on the electronic intifada site)
• "New calls to free Barghouti" (recent Jewish Telegraphic Agency editorial)
• "Israeli minister calls for Barghouti release as Fatah members flee to Egypt" (news article in Al Bawaba - Jordan)
• "Barghouti, Fatah execs urge Dahlan removal" (recent Haaretz news article)
  

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

It's called DIVIDE AND CONQUER.
link.
link
again.
and again

Mark Perry of Conflicts Forum:
So here is what will happen. The United States will fail to deliver. Some money will trickle in, but not nearly enough. The little that does trickle in will be spent unwisely. Israeli may remove some outposts, but only a few, and the settlements will continue to expand and settler roads will continue to be built and Palestinians will continue to die. Israelis will die too. A Palestinian security guard will be trained and it will march smartly through the streets of Ramallah. If it should exchange fire with a militia led by Hamas it will just as smartly be defeated. And if there is an election in “Fatahstine,” Hamas will win, while at the White House, Tony Snow will talk about how the outcome was engineered in Tehran. And nineteen months from now, in the waning days of the Bush Administration — with American foreign policy in tatters — Elliott Abrams and Keith Dayton will proudly stand alongside a smiling President Bush as he honors them, the newest recipients of the Medal of Freedom.

MJ, do not respond to Seth Edenbaum. As a regular blog reader, a couple of years ago I came across a Seth Edenbaum post on some NFL website that I saved because it was clear evidence of some kind of mental disturbance.

Edenbaum was responding to that Peyton Manning Mastercard (I think) ad in which my second favorite QB played himself as a guy who asks autographs of postal clerks and the like. Really funny and designed to out-funny an AmEx (I think) ad by Tom Brady. Here is what Seth E wrote. Remember, it is about Peyton Manning.

"There's a difference between the ad was made and the way you are perceiving it. For the people who made it, who were involved it it after the idea was thought up, the ad is simply a thing they made. We've com to the point when advertising where pure invention is the equal of intent (Giotto made billboards for the Catholic Church.)
This is the result in how capitalism is perceived by those who live in it: it is no longer a question of Capitalism as ideal but simply as fact.
Advertising is has always been seen as an intellectual act, as certain forms of popular literature are seen by their fans as primary intellectual or illustrative. Sci Fi, Fantasy, 'Speculative' Fiction, are usually nothing more than advertisements for ideas. As a philosophy of art it's basically Stalinist; though that's become the template for all theoretical activity. The academy has become Intellectual technocracy; it doesn't matter if you're talking about analytic philosophy or deconstruction: ideas take precedence over acts."

YUP. Seth Edenbaum manages to invoke Stalin in a post about Peyton Manning. Wow.

OK, that is indeed the worst case scenario, and I worry too that the eventual outcome of the situation will just be more of the same. But on the other hand, it's conceivable that some of the relatively sane elements within the Israeli government will realize that time is not on their side, and that a failure to seize the moment will ultimately only lead to further violence and weakening of the Israeli security situation, no matter what the U.S. neocons may want or say.

The same goes for the U.S. Congress. Perhaps, this time, they'll finally realize that the neocon approach has not benefitted Israel at all, and that true support for Israel requires doing everything possible to politically neutralize the more extreme elements within Palestinian society - as well as the extreme elements within Israeli society (whom the neocons support and represent) - by doing everything to create a viable, flourishing, secular, and peaceful Palestinian state. Perhaps, given the recent events, they will realize that nothing less than this is going to work.

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

So, pray tell us, who is the left-wing counterpart-author of 'My Likudnik Problem - And Ours?'

So what should the United States do?

Here's an idea: grow a backbone, recognize the right of the Palestinians to exist, instruct Israel to immediately return the illegally Occupied Territories and recognize the absolute and unqualified right of the Palestinians to return to their homes, and to formally forswear the notion of creating a "Greater Israel", and share Jerusalem.

How's that for a start?

Then, immediately cut off all US funds to Israel, and impose sanctions until they agree to give up their nuclear weapons and accept Iran's proposal to turn the Middle East into a nuclear-weapons free zone as in Latin America.

We've had enough spin-doctoring and slick politics while the settlements continue expanding, thank you. The best way to fight Hamas is to establish - for once - some justice for the oppressed by recognizing the Palestinian's Right to Exist.

But of course that won't happen while our Presidential Candidates line up to pander to Israel.

You just can't start on the assumption that Israel wants peace - that assumption is false. The fact is that Israel does not way peace - Israel wants land. Israel wants wars and conquest. And specifically, Israel wants to continue eradicating the Palestinians, surely but slowly, and everything else is just PR in the meantime.

Sure. The neocon-Likudniks are all wise and compassionate now. The U.S.-Israeli sponsored coup against Hamas failed, so they paint it as a Hamas coup and dissolve the government. Abbas new government is illegitimate despite blessings from the U.S.-Israel-Eu-S.A. or anyone else. To wait until Abbas carries out his U.S. written instructions and removes the legitimate government, Hamas, by decree, then turn around and say we need to somehow bring Hamas into the government is more than a little disingenuous.

Abbas tried to fight U.S. pressure to remove Hamas but he caved, and can only be seen as a puppet now. Yes, many people urged Israel to work with Abbas when he was the only one to deal with. But to portray him as the voice of the Palestinian people after he has caved is ludicrous. It clearly reveals Israel's hypocrisy and desire to avoid coming to terms with Palestine.

Israeli supporters were shocked by Hamas' victory. For a minute, this was seen as a blessing- isolate those uppity Palestinians to this forsaken strip of land. But they are afraid that their two state solution will be impossible if Palestine is divided. The facts-on-the-ground paradigm has changed. Hamas does not believe in ceding any Arab land to Israel, which is why they are demonized. Hamas had a cease fire for two years, so what? In the first eight months of Hamas leadership, 491 Palestinians were killed by Israel while 19 Israelis were killed by Palestinians.

No one wants to see the Islamist Hamas who associates with terrorist factions as the ultimate government of Palestine, not even Hamas. But they were freely elected to rid the OT of crime and corruption. And this effort to divide and conquer will not prevail. It will only radicalize the Palestinians more and thwart peace prospects (especially a two-state solution). The whole concept of isolating and squeezing an impoverished people (forty years now) and withholding their monies to force a "settlement" on them is sick and disgusting.

Any sentence which begins "Israel wants" or "the Palestinians want" is most likely false.

Accumulating Peripherals

The post was about advertising, as most of the blog seems to be. The post is here with my comments.

The point was that we do not look at Giotto because he was a good salesman for the church; most people who look at his work these days aren't even Catholic. We look at him because there is "an added value" which I won't bother to try to define. The interesting thing about the Peyton Manning ad and others is that commercials are now becoming small films with taglines at the end; becoming more independent of their original limited purpose.
Ads are a new form of entertainment in themselves. Here's another very different but still related example.

"Sci Fi, Fantasy, 'Speculative' Fiction, are usually nothing more than advertisements for ideas. As a philosophy of art it's basically Stalinist;"

Ever heard of Socialist Realism? Or Arno Brecker? You've probably heard of Ayn Rand.
What I said wasn't even very original. I only pointed out that someone else's claims to originality were bullshit. The idiot was trying to claim advertising qua advertising as a new art.
That's vulgar productivism and fascist logic.

Go back to school son. We can continue this discussion when you graduate.

Dear Abdul-hass:
I thank G-d that nobody in Washington except President Kucinich takes your nonsense seriously.

jdledell and Wordie,

A recent poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research shows the Palestinian electorate favorable for new elections.  So, I admit that you both are correct in that the premiership of Hanaiyeh is perhaps at best as legitimate as our own commander guy in the US.

Nevertheless, unless Abbas really isn't into the presidency of the emergent Palestine, the poll doesn't show how it is in his interest to secure the release of Marwan Barghouti as, even as both Abbas and Barghouti are both more popular than Hamas, Barghouti is Abbas' chief rival.

Ha'aretz reports,

If new presidential elections were to be held, 49 percent would vote for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Fatah movement, and 42 percent would vote for his political rival, deposed prime minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, the survey said.

If imprisoned Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti were to run against Haniyeh, he would win 59 percent to Haniyeh's 35 percent, the poll said. Barghouti is serving five life sentences in Hadarim Prison for murder and attempted murder. Cabinet mi nister Gideon Ezra recently called for Barghouti's release as part of Israeli efforts to boost Abbas.

Perhaps the strongest argument I've seen in favor a single-state solution to the conflict is the leadership crisis that both Palestinians and Israelis appear to have in common.

In the 2004 Palestinian elections, Barghouti withdrew his candicacy for Palestinian president in the cause of Palestinian unity. This guy appears to be a statesman, who cares more about his people than political gain. As a Fatah member, he's campaigned against corruption in the Fatah ranks, even taking on Arafat himself. And he's issued a statement in support of Abbas' recent actions. His release could assist Abbas in consolidating Palestinian public opinion, as "He is considered to be the leader of Fatah's 'young guard', and is renowned for his unparalleled grassroots popularity and pragmaticism with regards to making peace with the state of Israel." (from the Bargouti wiki)

Here's the text of Barghouti's recent statement from prison:

From my dark, small prison cell, I address the great Palestinian people to do the following:

1. Condemn the military coup against the legitimate Palestinian Authority and its institutions in the Gaza Strip.

2. Consider the military coup by Hamas in Gaza a dangerous threat to the Palestinian unity and cause, a shift in the choice of resistance and the destruction of the principles of partnership.

3. Consider the coup a threat to the democratic process and democratic choice, which led Hamas to win the legislative elections.

4. Fully support the decision to compose a new Palestinian government under Salam Fayyad, hoping it will restore the sovereignty of law and end the state of chaos in order to protect the Palestinian unity.

5. Censure any attacks against people or institutions of the Hamas movement in the West Bank, and absolutely refuse the extension of chaos into the West Bank.

6. Call on President Abbas, as the general commander of the Fatah movement, to appoint a new leadership of Fatah in the Gaza Strip.

7. Dismiss all the leaders of the security services and appoint new leaders capable of reforming and developing the security institutions, relying on professionalism. This will render the security services more efficient in attempts to defend the Palestinian homeland and citizens.

New Israeli President, Shimon Peres, is said (Ynet) to have offered to free Barghouti if elected to the presidency:

Shimon Peres, the man who didn't want to compete for the presidency but did so because his colleagues exerted pressure on him, arrived at a meeting with Meretz faction members a few weeks ago in a bid to persuade them to back his candidacy.

The eternal contender arrived with an enticing offer: You give me your votes, and I as president will give you Marwan Barghouti (jailed Tanzim leader currently serving five life sentences in Israel for murder and attempted murder.) If and when a request to pardon him is placed on my desk - I will sign it.

Peres is familiar with this party - aversion to corruption is not its primary concern, for the sake of peace, of course. Although Peres' associates say that the proposal was raised by members of Meretz, and all that Peres said was that if a request came from the Justice Ministry, he would not stop it, he repeated the same assurance in a private talk with Knesset Member Zahava Gal-On, known to be a supporter of Colette Avital.

The words written here are not aimed at condemning the possibility of granting a pardon in two years time to someone who may one day be able to unite the Palestinians and lead them to a real peace agreement. Barghouti, according to those who have met with him, is indeed capable of realizing the idea of two states for two peoples. He has both the will and the ability to put a stop to the bloodshed.

I have nothing against Abbas, but he is increasingly seen, rightly or wrongly, among Palestinians as a tool of Israel and the U.S. Barghouti's release and support of Abbas could make the difference. He isn't part of the "leadership crisis" you speak about - in fact he is a strong and pragmatic Palestinian leader. So why not release him, if peace is the goal?

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

MJ...

Near the end of your piece you said;

Hamas should also secure the release of Gilad Shalit and BBC correspondent Alan Johnston – actions that would have a powerful effect on public opinion in Israel and Europe.

I am curious about why you left out what effect it would have on American public opinion and only cited Israel and Europe?  Was that an intentional omission?  It might seem like a little detail in the full scope of your post but with as involved as the US government is in the issue I think it is important enough to ask about.

It strikes me that if one released Nelson Mandela from Prison so he could be Richard Nixon's running mate, the result would not be the elevation of Nixon but the degradation of Mandela.

Why should Barghouti support Abbas? Hasn't Abbas disgraced himself? Hasn't Abbas proven both his incompetence, his corruption and his obeisance to the west.

Better for Barghouti to stab Abbas in the neck and take the job himself.

Mind you, if he did that, he'd be his own man, wouldn't he?

Much better to have him as a eunuch chained to Abbas?

But then, who would care?

Valdron: I can see why you might think the way you do, but respectfully disagree.

It strikes me that if one released Nelson Mandela from Prison so he could be Richard Nixon's running mate, the result would not be the elevation of Nixon but the degradation of Mandela.

The circumstances are just too different for this analogy to work, imho.

Why should Barghouti support Abbas? Hasn't Abbas disgraced himself? Hasn't Abbas proven both his incompetence, his corruption and his obeisance to the west.

I think Abbas has not so much disgraced himself as he has been completely outmanouvered, through no particular fault of his own. After all, he didn't want to move ahead the elections that brought Hamas to power but was forced into them by the Bush administration (under the influence of the neocons), and the unilateral withdrawal by Israel from Gaza just played into the hands of Hamas, who claimed it as a Hamas victory.

What was Abbas supposed to do upon the Hamas' win? I think most of the actions he's taken can be seen as having been taken primarily in the hopes of establishing a Palestinian state. Also, my understanding is that although some of those under Abbas have had charges of corruption leveled at them, Abbas himself is clean.

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

I'm still not seeing any motive for Barghouti to support Abbas.

I dunno, being a weakling and a puppet is simply not an appealing job description.

deleted by me

MJ's entire working theory is wrong. There is NOTHING the US can do to force a two-state solution in the Middle East, other than to support the process diplomatically.

The idea that you can buy your way into the hearts and minds of Palestinians is rubbish. We've poured billions into Gaza and the West Bank for years and have zero to show for it in terms of co-operation from their side.

The US didn't create the economic deprivation there -- Yasser Arafat and his incompetent thugocracy did. You'll find these exact same desperate conditions in Yemen, Algeria, Syria, and a host of other Arab countries. Who is responsible for that?

Palestinians have had the worst political leadership of any peoples on Earth, with few exceptions, and they are paying the price for it. I don't want another dime of my taxpayer money going into that rathole, until I see a united government committed to peace. Until then, let the rich Arab nations and Iran support them.

Some believe that Sharon's intention in withdrawing from Gaza was to isolate Palestinians while continuing to claim more of the WB. Someone should wake him up because it is working out just like that. Hamas maintained a self-imposed cease-fire for a year and a half until the bombing of the girl's family on the beach, followed by more Israeli incursions, bulldozing, bombings of infrastructure, assassinations and arrests of legitimate government officials.

Generations of Palestinians have been without a home over 60 years. But if Israel has nothing to do with the plight of the Palestinians, as you say, I guess it's their own fault for being Arabs. Since September 29, 2000: 118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 943 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis; 1,023 Israelis and at least 4,160 Palestinians have been killed; 7,633 Israelis and 31,403 Palestinians have been injured. But Israel has nothing to do with the Palestinians. 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel including hundreds of children. But Israel has nothing to do with that. Over 65 UN resolutions against Israel have been passed, none against the Palestinians. But Israel has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Hamas is the terrorist group du jour. Fatah factions were the scary terrorists previously. But I'm not defending either one. I'm defending the Palestinians' right to choose their government and not be starved to death because of that choice. I'm defending the Palestinians' right to exist as full citizens on some piece of land if not their own.

Brook,

If your mad about all the taxpayer money going to the Palestinians, you're really going to be pissed at what we give Israel. Israel gets over $7 million a day from us and the thing is, it's borrowed money that we have to pay interest on. That's $7 million more a day than we give to the Palestinians because we give them nothing. We even cut off humanitarian aid after Hamas was elected. I have heard that we have provided a ton of weapons to Fatah to foment this "civil war" they're having, so I guess your taxes did pay for that. Write your congressman.

P.S. I know what you mean about the Palestinian leadership. We just can't get a good one. Well, all we can do is to keep changing them until we get one we like. 

Advocating a single state solution in which Palestinians and Jews live as equals is denying the Jews their Right to Exist in a Jewish Homeland

It's actually far simpler than that. Advocating a single state solution is akin to denying the Jews their Rights, period. Until you can point to any of the approx 52 states that self identify as "Muslim states" (through membership in various international organizations), that guarantee full and equal rights to Jews, a one state solution will invariably lead to Jews as second class citizens.

I would never argue that Palestinians who do not have Israeli citizenship, but who do live under Israeli rule, are afforded the same rights as Jewish Israelis. However, for the most part, Israeli Arabs can exercise their rights as equal citizens in Israel in ways that Jews cannot in most if not all of the countries in which Muslims are a majority.

Cases in point? Jews cannot own land in Jordan, Jews cannot set foot in Mecca, Jewish women do not have equal rights in places like Iran, or most of the gulf states. Malaysia uses a form of sharia for Muslim citizens and civil law for non-Muslims. This led to the recent ruling that a woman who had converted out of Islam (to Christianity) had her conversion declared non-operative because the code she falls under (the one governed by sharia) did not allow for it.

If a Malaysian Muslim converted to Judaism, she'd be Jewish and yet, not considered to be a Jew by the laws of her country. Consequently, she would be held responsible, though Jewish, to a standard dictated by Muslim religious law. If Jews, both men and women, could be assured that their basic rights, as citizens under a one state solution, would not be regulated unfairly, then a one state solution would be worth discussing. Then, perhaps, we could talk about whether rights to live in a "Jewish Homeland" were problematic.

However, based upon the reality of current behavior, that is an impossible guarantee to make. As it stands today, the primary concern of Jews within a one state solution is for their basic human rights and not specifically for their religious rights.

Don, the only people denying Palestinians a state are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and all the other radicals in the region. You cannot expect Israel to cut deals with 5 different groups in Gaza and the West Bank. Cease-fires are a joke when you have so many different groups with their own agenda. The rockets have not stopped raining down on Sederot for a single week. The Israeli's are ready to cut a deal, just as they cut a deal with Egypt when they pulled out of the Sinai.

Hamas wants a state only on their terms with no compromise. All they have to do if they don't get their way is launch rocket or suicide attacks into Israel. The Palestinian government is too weak to stop them.

My perspective is it's going to take intervention from Egypt and Jordan to maintain security in the West Bank and Gaza, stop terror attacks, and allow the negotiations to go forward. The Palestinian Authority is too weak to rein in these radical groups.

what i am saying is that rogue, radical Israeli's have launched terror attacks against Palestinians, and these people are prosecuted under Israeli law.

Your theory that the breakdown of justice is Israeli's fault might hold water, if it wasn't for the fact that we see the same thing in Lebanon, where Hezbollah is untouchable by the Lebanese justics system, and Iran where radical regime loyalists from Iranian Hezbollah beat and intimidate Iranian citizens with impunity.

No sale. Anyway, under the Mecca Accord forming the unity government, Hamas readily agreed not to be a negotiator or to speak for Palestine, that was deferred to Abbas and Fatah. Hamas wanted to run the day to day inside Palestine to restore law and order. They kept their cease-fire. How many thousands have been killed from this never-ending rain of rockets?

the road map amounts to a compromise for both sides that will have to make painful concessions. Palestinians are not going to get right of return and absolute control of Jerusalem. This is the real world. You know Israel is never going to agree to your scenario. The question is -- do you believe Palestinians should settle for less -- if it means they can have their own soverign state?

"the Hamas organization is morally corrupt. It used violence not as a weapon of resistance,"

the hypocrisy here is amazing

Oh come on now, Zionista. Ray Hanania is a professional comedian writing about Hamas from Orland Park, Illinois.

He is also a fucking liar whose message is designed to resonate with those on the most radical Israeli (and American) right who tippy-toe right up to advocating genocide.

Why should your "rights" supersede the rights of the Palestinians that you've murdered and whose properties you have stolen? You commit genocide and the say who will protect your rights? LOL! How pathetic. You're all criminals.

"The demand that Hamas recognize Israel in advance of negotiations (which neither the PLO, Egypt or Jordan were required to do) is not a condition, it is rhetoric designed to preserve the deadly status quo. "

Wait a minute.
PLO recognized Israel already as
elected representative of Palestinians.
Does MJ suggest that Israel need to re-negotiate this agreement after each election in PA?

"I am a passionate supporter of a JUST 2 state solution by withdrawing to the 67 borders but including expanded access in Jersualem proper. "

You never explained why it's JUST.
It's not JUST at all. It's realistic from your point of view, and probably most Jews and Palestinians would accept this solution if it was possible, but it's not possible (-:

Plese no Kucinich bashing. He doesn't advocate anything like this

"I'm defending the Palestinians' right to choose their government and not be starved to death because of that choice."

Interesting idea.

German people chose their goverment and were starved and bombed because of their choice.
I don't remenber if Americans allowed food and medicine in Japan before end of the war.

Wow,

You are truly disturbed. I thought you were just very passionate about Palestinian rights and a bit biased in the way you filter news from the region.

But you have made it clear.

you are quite deranged.

What you wrote is not worth dissecting. However, in case what I wrote is not clear about where I stand.

I believe in a two state solution even though a Palestine would most like be emptied of Jewish inhabitants. Nevertheless, I believe that non-Jews in Israel should have complete equal rights as Jews. I believe that Israeli law requires such a thing, though it is not always implemented to achieve that result. I believe that every country affords citizens a different set of rights than non-citizens.

I believe that non-Israeli Palestinians in the territories have gotten a raw deal for years. I believe Arafat had an opportunity in the summer of 2000 to create a state in which those folks could live and prosper with their dignity intact.

I believe that it is inappropriate to force generation after generation of Palestinians to suffer for the sake of Arab pride.

My original comment above said nothing about "a greater Israel". It simply pointed out that Israeli Jews are concerned as much for their basic rights within a country with a Muslim majority as they are about their rights to pursue a nation based upon Jewish self-determination.

You need some psychological help. Seriously, abdul-hass, you do. Please get it before you harm either yourself or others in your path.

davai,

Like I said, one only needs to look at the postings of zionists here to see that it is having a totally demoralizing effect on their delusions.

This is obvious in the case of Simon bar Kozema. Less obvious in your case since you are not actually foaming at the mouth.

But postings here like yours and Zionistas seem to be just wearily defending a position that you already know is becoming irrelevant.

Sure Israel could go on occupying the West Bank for a while with its supporters arguing passionately that it has to do so because Hamas refuses to recognize it. But that isn't a long term position and isn't intended to be. Its the same sort of obviously transitional position that had supporters of the Vietnam war insisting it was about the return of every last POW while Nixon withdrew the troops. Once you change the goal to recovering prisoners, or being recognized by Hamas, you have already admitted defeat and are merely giving your own supporters time to internalize that.

I'm sure you and Zionista will internalize it much better than Simon. But the whole drawn out exercise is largely for the purpose of demobilizing people like Simon.

As simple Simon knows, the current Israeli government position undermines the original point of occupying "Judea and Samaria". It has to shout a lot at Hamas (and Iran!) because it has to distract attention from the fact that is now moving towards the terms offered by the PLO decades ago.

The next big step will be releasing Marwan Barghouti. A mighty blow against Hamas of course.

If you had the guts to simply say "it's over" and take responsibility for dealing with your simple Simons it would be much easier for the Palestinians to deal with theirs.

"The Palestinians neither want one nor are they capable of maintaining one"

I agree, therefore Israel has to for now military control West Bank as a separate entity that can be part of another Arab state or a independent state in the future.
Therefore Israel has to establish reasonable provisional borders of this entity.

Arthur Dent,

But postings here like yours and Zionistas seem to be just wearily defending a position that you already know is becoming irrelevant.

Sure Israel could go on occupying the West Bank....

How exactly do you establish your premise?  In the absence of any evidence to support it, I am compelled to assume that your insistance of my "defence" of the ongoing occupation of the territories is due to some sick need to believe in the most nefarious intentions behind Jewish national interests and to conflate the entire spectrum of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli opinion along the most regressive and right-leaning standards.  Even if you have to make shit up.

Yeah I'm sure your heart bleeds for the Palestinians. The only place you've led them to is mass murder and refugee camps.

I just love it when Zionists claim that God said it was ok to massacre a people and steal their property, and then they pretend to be oh so concerned about the people they've daily victimized.

How many innocent non-Jewish women and children did YOUR proud Zionist daddy drive into refugee tents? Whose home are YOU living in right now, Davai? You're a grown up - start taking responsibility.

EVERY SINGLE LAST ISRAELI who is drinking Palestinian water and living in Palestinian land is complicit in GENOCIDE and is no less responsible than every Good German who closed his eyes to Hitler.

Oh well don't worry then because you're doing a fine job of starving and murdering Palestinians even before they elected their government.

You proudly call yourself a Zionist and even use the name "Zionista" and it is self-evident that Zionism is a racist ideology of Jewish supremacy that espouses the ethnic cleansing on Non-Jews from their homes and lands. Thus, you can't complain.

And the simple fact is, whatever the "Spectrum of opinion" may exist, Israel as a whole is regressive and "right leaning" where racism and bigotry is institutionalized. It is about time that you people looked at yourself and your government and took some responsibility for what you've become especially since you claim to be a democracy.

And Israel has ambitions on not just the Palestnains lands but all of "Greater Israel"

Israel expels record number of east Jerusalem Arabs Agence France Press, Sun Jun 24, 6:06 AM ET

Israel cancelled the east Jerusalem residence permits of a record number of Palestinians in 2006, effectively expelling them from the city, the human rights groups B'Tselem said on Sunday.

A total of 1,363 Palestinians had their residence permits withdrawn last year compared with just 222 in 2005, the watchdog said, basing its figures on interior ministry statistics...

Palestinians in east Jerusalem have the status of permanent residents of Israel, the same status granted to foreigners who settle in the Jewish state.

"Israel treats Palestinian residents of east Jerusalem as immigrants, who live in their homes at the benificence of the authorities and not by right," B'Tselem said.

"Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing since it was Israel that entered east Jerusalem in 1967."

"The injustice in this policy stems from the fact that an Israeli can have several passports and spend his life abroad without anyone questioning his status as an Israeli national."

"It's actually far simpler than that. Advocating a single state solution is akin to denying the Jews their Rights, period."

"It's actually far simpler than that. Advocating for integration is akin to denying white people their Rights, period."

I'll just post this again.former Jerusalem City Council member Meir Margalit:

"East Jerusalem [i.e. Palestinian] residents, who make up 35% of the population, receive 9-12% of the municipal budget-- well below their urgent and legitimate needs-- suffer from deprivation and a chronic lack of infrastructure... Regarding demography, the State determined, in one of its most shameful decisions, that the Arab sector should not exceed 30% of the population of the city in order to maintain an absolute majority of Jews. The latest master plan ... sets a new limit-- 40% Arab. The decisionmakers are apparently incapable of understanding the moral implications of their untenable policy. It is not difficult to imagine how the State of Israel would react if a European country intended limiting the number of its Jewish residents. (pp.24-25)

Yet Israel also has to announce that it is now needs to support Fateh and the PLO to maintain military control to prevent Gazafication of the West Bank.

Imagine if Israel was NOT simply going through the necessary exercise of demobilizing people like Simon so that Israeli public opinion can get used to the idea of defeat in "Judea and Samaria" without internal panic and conflict.

Now would be a perfect opportunity for some action to maintain the occupation. Instead of just the same tired old arguments about how Israel cannot do this and that for fear of the other and its all the Palestinians fault, you would be taking action that actually corresponds to the propaganda.

For example, if you really believe that a "terrorist entity" posing an "existential threat" has just taken power in Gaza you would send an army to garrison Gaza and drive the Palestinians there into Egypt.

If you really ever believed that there was nothing to negotiate with Abbas because he would not or could not suppress Hamas then you would not suddenly decide that you need to support Abbas when he conclusively demonstrates that he cannot suppress Hamas. Instead you would use exactly the sort of arguments you use, not for weary propaganda, but in defence of your action in breaking off all relations with the now completely irrelevant Palestine Authority and tightening military control.

Your propaganda is so radically inconsistent with your actions that it has become pointless.

Thanks, Bronto, while I wasn't trying to make all the points you address, I do agree with you. It bothers me that Israel does not have a written constitution, and I wonder if it would be able to do some of the things it has done if it were constrained by law.

Because Hamas wants their state instead of Israel, not next to Israel.

Hamas has always said that if Israel pulls back to pre-'67, they would talk. And the unity government was set up with Abbas/Fatah as negotiator for Palestine, anyway. This is the Big Lie of the day. It doesn't matter who is elected in the OT, there is never anyone Israel can negotiate with.

That's the thing Bar, when individual rights are protected, that is the end of the story. Freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom of religion--those are your rights. But they are my rights as well. And they are the rights of Arabs. They are human rights, and they don't inhere in any particular people.

So, the answer to your question is that the courts would protect your rights.

Reece,

As I'm sure you know, more Jews live in the United States than in Israel. And their rights are protected as individuals.

...in the United States, not throughout the entire world.  Jewish history is full of places and instances of existential vulnerability due to the statelessness of the Jewish people.  For recent examples, consider pre-war US immigration quotas and the British White Paper of 1939.

When you and other avatars of human rights advocate as strongly for the dissolution of the League of Arab States, the Organization of Islamic Conferences and other institutions of national exceptionalism, as you do for the dissolution of Jewish national self-determination in Israel then perhaps your arguments may contain some level of good faith.

Arthur Dent,

The evidence I see of wearily defending a position that you know is becoming irrelevant is that you no longer even assert a claim to "Judea and Samaria".

Let's see.  I do not defend sustaining the occupation of the territories nor maintaining Jewish settlements there, and I have consistently asserted that the national rights of Jews and Arabs in former British Palestine are not mutually exclusive.  And all of this is evidence to you that I am wearily defending... what, exactly?

Zionista,

No one has their rights protected throughout the entire world. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It would be the same to argue that since many Muslim-majority states fail to protect human rights, it is therefore fine to violate the rights of Muslims in the United States.

We can't condition our moral projects on the acts of other people. Or rather, since I am sure there is a counterexample, we should always act morally under the circumstances directly affecting our choices. The existence of other nationalistic organizations does not restrict our choices.

Action Plan

Sometime after the February 2007 Mecca agreement, which set up the framework for a Hamas-Fatah government of national unity, there was drawn up an Action Plan aimed at rolling back the idea of a Palestinian national-unity government, sidelining Hamas, and "building up Abbas' political stock" in a short period of time not to exceed nine months, with the idea that Abbas would call new parliamentary elections in fall 2007, which Fatah would win. The document refers to the February Mecca agreement, and looks forward to the March Rice-Abbas-Olmert summit, so it was written during that interval, making this in effect a last-gasp attempt to keep alive the divide-and-conquer scheme for Palestine promoted by Elliot Abrams at the National Security Council.

If Hananiah and Barakeh have extra credibility bashing Hamas because they're Palestinians, do anti-Zionist Jews also possess extra credibility?

People who in the face of massive and on-going ZIonist crimes against ALL humanity whine about how Israelis will be able to secure their apartheid privileges should Palestinians ever manage to get their right are the lowest of the low, especially when the pretend to care oh so much about Palestinians that they victimize everyday and in every which way. Its like the Nazis whining about how their Aryan race could ever manage to establish their Breathing Room if they were ever unsuccessful in massacring and wiping out and subjugating the non-Aryans. You people have absolutely no shame. Israels is a moral stain on humanity and the people of Israeli seem to have completely lost their moral bearings. All the better for the Self Chosen to drive out those "Arabs" from the Promised Land, huh?

I was referring to the Hamas government. Here are links to statements.

This from Haniya last week reiterates their position: "We want the creation of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders, that is Gaza and the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. The PLO is in charge of negotiations on this point. We have agreed to respect all the past agreements signed by the PA."

The legal definition of genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide, does not require killing a single person as long you impose conditions on a people intended to destroy them as a people - for example by shoving them into refugee camps where they are subjected to sanctions and starvation and daily violence - and Israel's treatment of Palestinians fits that definition perfectly (How long did they claim that Palestinians don't actually even exist?)

And yet, in addition to GENOCIDE, the Israeli do carry out mass slaughter of Palestinians too. Genocide and mass slaughter are not mutually exclusive. Israeli mass murder of Palestinians is hardly new or a secret - they openly celebrate it! Their leaders are personally directly responsible and they LOVE celebrating how they murder Palestinains. Their leaders that they lionize are known killers of innocents - directly and indivually responsible for killing innocents.

For example, see below how Israeli historian Benny Morris recounts acts of Israeli mass murder - and he ENDORSES it and complains that there weren't ENOUGH mass murders. Yes, that is what Israel is ALL ABOUT: JUSTIFYING MASS MURDER.

Shavit: According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Benny Morris: "Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.
...
A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads.

Ariel Sharon - in addition to being responsible for the massacres of Palestinains in Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, was commander of the notorious Unit 101 which attacked Palestinian villages in which women and children were killed. The massacre in the West Bank village of Qibya, on October 14, 1953, was perhaps the most notorious. Sharon's racist murderous Zionist thugs blew up 45 houses and 69 Palestinian civilians -- about half of them women and children -- were killed. And that's JUST ONE of his crimes. Ariel Sharon and Rafael Eytan commanded a unit that was responsible for massacring 270 captured Egyptian POWs and Sudanese civilian road workers during the 1956 Suez Canal war. Gen. Arye Biro, a retired Israeli army general mass murder, openly BOASTED about the shooting to Israeli newspapers - and NO ONE has been held responsible - instead Israel CELEBRATES the murders by electing Sharon.

You have to wonder about the morality of a people who consistenly elect mass murderers to their leadership positions. In other countries, the mass murderers are usually dictators who seize power but in Israel, they are elected to lead their perpetually-victim-status "democratic" country.

Menachem Begin - as head of the terrorist Irgun, was responsible for not only murdering Palestinan civlians on a mass scale in places like Deir Yassin, but he was also responsible for the infamous Lavon Affair, in which Israeli agents placed bombs in US and British buildings in Egypt and tried to blame the explosions on the Egyptians. He was also responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel.

Yitzak Shamir - among other things was personally responsible for the assassination of Count Folke Bernodotte in September, 1948. The victim was a Swedish UN peacekeeping mediator.

Netanyahu, Rabin, etc. -- all of them are mass murderers and terrorists, and all of them were elected by Israelis to their highest government positions. Ask yourself, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT ISRAEL AND ISRAELIS?

Even TIME magazine reported on how Israel is led by murderous racist terrorists:

"Our enemies called us terrorists, our friends patriots," wrote Menachem Begin, head of the Irgun, in words that could be used by any terrorist at any time. Begin