"Unless a United Nations force (like UNIFIL) steps in, a sliver of territory with a population of 1.4 million, a short drive from Tel Aviv will become a dagger aimed at Israel’s heart and perhaps even an Al Qaeda staging ground."

I thought Hamas was Shiite - not likely to align with Al Qaeda.

Update: No, forget that, sorry, they are Sunni.

Yes, Hamas receives weaponry from Iran. In fact, Iran is its main supplier.

Now, for the usual corrections.
MJ is giving us the old line that Arafat and (Holocaust denier) Abbas are "secularists" and "moderates" who should have been "strengthened" against the "Islamic extremists" in HAMAS.
In reality, there is NO difference in goals between "moderate" FATAH and "extremist" HAMAS. Both believe in using force to destroy Israel. Most of the suicide bombings during the worst period of 2001-2003 were carried out by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade which is affiliated with Arafat and Abbas, not the HAMAS.
Sure, Abbas lies to the foreign media about wanting "peace" and the such, whereas HAMAS tells the truth that they will never make peace with Israel, but that is merely a difference in tactics.
No doubt there are real differences between HAMAS and FATAH. However, these differences are internal. HAMAS wants more a strict Islamic influence on Arab society. Clans not close to the Arafat money trough allied themselves with HAMAS in order to get money from Iran and Syria instead. None of this has anything to do with relations with Israel
MJ was giving us the old "give HAMAS power and money, it will force them to be moderate" since they supposedly will have to collect the garbage and take care of other municipal services in order to maintain public support, but this has been proven to be nonsense. HIZBULLAH played its part in destroying the Lebanese state structure, and even brought about a lot of damage in the 2006 War with Israel, but they are still powerful. When HAMAS won their election against FATAH last year, they didn't promise they would run the Palestinian territories more efficiently, they promised VICTORY and they are delivering. Israel is in retreat. The political "Right" in Israel has been destroyed (thanks to Sharon and the Likud) and the defeatist Left is in power (Peres' and Barak's victories this week), so HAMAS can point at real achievements.
MJ can't seem to get it through his head---IT IS NOT IN ISRAEL'S POWER TO FORCE THE ARABS TO MAKE PEACE. MJ and the Left keep telling us "if only Israel had done such and such there would have been peace" as if the Arabs were ready for peace and it is Israel that pushes it off. The Arab/Islamic world opposes the very existence of Israel and will everything it can to push its agenda.
This doesn not mean that I don't believe the violence will be never ending. ABSOLUTELY NOT. It WILL end when Israel stops making political and territorial concessions. Only then will the Arabs realize that Israel is serious. It is all the concessions and phony "peace agreements" that have convinced the Arabs that Israel is in decline.
The fact is that TIME IS WORKING IN ISRAEL'S FAVOR. The Arabs are destroying themselves. They are falling further and further behind Israel and the West. Israel just has to tough it out and eventually, some time in the future, there will be a chance for real peace, but only if Israel turns from the dominant post-Zionist hallucinations that have infected the leadership of both the Right and Left, and returns to its real Jewish/Zionist roots.

Thank you, Mr. Bar Kochba (such a humble name) for proving my points. Without you, TPM readers might think I create rightwing strawmen. As I said, party on!

Yes, I should be more humble like you were when you dropped your comment "President Clinton told me...".

Other than simply saying "chilling", can you provide actual factual refutation of what I have said? Read Tom Friedman's recent columns in the New York Times. He knows a lot about the Arab world, having risked his life in Beirut for several years. He is totally opposed to my political views but he points out how the Arab worlds' best minds are all leaving for the West, their universities teach little science and technology but emphasize Sharia law studies. The total industrial output of the entire Arab world is about the same as Finland's.

Here, I am reposting his article for you:

--------------------------------------------
Op-Ed Columnist
Israel Discovers Oil
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
BEERSHEBA, Israel

Lucien Bronicki is one of Israel’s foremost experts in geothermal power, but when I ran into him last week at Ben Gurion University, in Israel’s Negev Desert, all he wanted to talk about was oil wells. Israel, he told me, had discovered oil.

Pointing to a room full of young Israeli high-tech college seniors, Mr. Bronicki remarked: “These are our oil wells.”

It was quite a scene. Once a year Ben Gurion students in biomedical engineering, software, electrical engineering and computing create elaborate displays of their senior projects or — as in the case of a student-made robot that sidled up to me — demonstrate devices they’ve invented.

On this occasion, Yossi Vardi, the godfather of Israeli venture capitalism — ever since he backed the four young Israelis who invented the first Internetwide instant messaging system, Mirabilis, which was sold to AOL for $400 million in 1998 — brought some of his venture capital pals, like Mr. Bronicki, down to Ben Gurion to scout out potential start-ups and to mentor the grads.

The first student exhibit I visited was by Yuval Sharoni, 26, an electrical engineering senior, whose project was titled an “Innovative Covariance Matrix for Point Target Detection in Hyperspectral Images” (which has to do with military targeting). When I told him I was from The Times, he declared: “This project is going to make the front page, I’m telling you.” The cover of Popular Mechanics, maybe, but it could one day make the Nasdaq, where Israel now has the most companies listed of any nation outside of the United States.

“Today, every Israeli Jewish mother wants her son to be a dropout and go create a start-up,” said Mr. Vardi, who is currently invested in 38 different ones.

Which gets to the point of this column: If you want to know why Israel’s stock market and car sales are at record highs — while Israel’s government is paralyzed by scandals and war with Hamas and doesn’t even have a finance minister — it’s because of this ecosystem of young innovators and venture capitalists. Last year, VCs poured about $1.4 billion into Israeli start-ups, which puts Israel in a league with India and China.

Israel is Exhibit A of an economic phenomenon I see a lot these days. Of course, competition between countries and between companies still matters. But when the world becomes this flat — with so many distributed tools of innovation and connectivity empowering individuals from anywhere to compete, connect and collaborate — the most important competition is between you and your own imagination, because energetic, innovative and connected individuals can now act on their imaginations farther, faster, deeper and cheaper than ever before.

Those countries and companies that empower their individuals to imagine and act quickly on their imagination are going to thrive. So while there are reasons to be pessimistic about Israel these days, there is one huge reason for optimism: this country has a culture that nurtures and rewards individual imagination — one with no respect for limits or hierarchies, or fear of failure. It’s a perfect fit with this era of globalization.

“We are not investing in products or business plans today, but in people who have the ability to imagine and connect dots,” said Nimrod Kozlovski, a top Israeli expert on Internet law who also works with start-ups. Israel is not good at building big companies, he explained, but it is very good at producing people who say, “Wouldn’t it be great if you could do this ...,” then create a start-up to do it — which is later bought out and expanded by an Intel, Microsoft or Google.

“The motto here is not work hard but dream hard,” Mr. Kozlovski added. “I had some guy come see me the other day and say, ‘You know Google? They make a lot of money, very famous, right? They’re not that good. We have a much better system that correlates to the cognitive process of searching. Google is worth $50 billion? Probably we can match their numbers.’ He was dead serious.”

My guess is that the flatter the world becomes, the wider the economic gap we will see between those countries that empower individual imagination and those that don’t. High oil prices can temporarily disguise that gap, but it’s growing.

Iran’s ignorant president, who keeps babbling about how Israel is going to disappear, ought to pay a visit to Ben Gurion and see these rooms buzzing with student innovators, with projects called “Integration Points for IP Multimedia Subsystems” and “Algorithms for Obstacle Detection and Avoidance.” These are oil wells that don’t run dry.

Actually, the reason I use that as my nom-de-plume is that he is very politically INcorrect in today's post-Zionist Israel. He was even denounced on the floor of the Knesset by Yitzhak Rabin. I am well aware that he failed in his war against the Romans, but he united the then badly divided Jewish people in a way that held them together throughout the long years of galut.

Ooh, I am enjoying this real-time dialoge with you! Remember that Netanyahu is a politician. Also recall that Friedman is a lot closer to your general viewpoint than mine. That is why I davka am posting what he is saying. He is a real enigma to me. He certainly knows what the Arabs are like having lived in Beirut at a time of maximum danger to Americans there. Sometimes he writes clear things. Other times he indulges in wishful thinking. You are right, he does take a quasi-Marxist view of things that "economic development is inevitable", "globalization is the wave of the future", but Peres has also said "peace is inevitable because the Arabs can't afford to be left behind". Well, the fact is that their leaders obviously don't care, as long as they stay in power, and all they need is a strong mukhabarat (secret police) for that.

Its not wise to take anything Friedman says about anything seriously. He's a man who has vanished up his own pomposity and now exists as a fictional character of his own imagination.

Speaking more seriously, I have to echo Purple-State's comments.

I don't see Gaza as a "dagger aimed at the heart of Israel."

Let's get serious. Two million people jammed into a postage stamp with no resources, no economy to speak of, no control over their own borders? That's no threat to anyone. It's a giant prison camp, its an Indian reservation supersized, its the Warsaw Ghetto writ large.

Fatah, for better or worse, proved it could not govern. This made it inevitable that someone take over.

Israel offered Fatah friendship and undermined it at every turn. Yet Fatah's faults and flaws were its own.

Hamas will not accept Israel's friendship, and will therefore not be as easy to undermine.

But to Palestinians, Hamas' selling point has always been its committment to competence, to integrity, to good government.

If these are actually Hamas strengths, then Hamas will have to deal with Israel on practical levels, or find other ways and other allies to help it look after its people.

We'll wait and see.

Thanks, Purple State. But I think it necessary to go into the history. Believe me, I will be one of the very few pointing out that Israel helped create Hamas. The MSM will tell us that Hamas is just a product of Islamic and Palestinian nutsiness.

It is important to understand that in 1996 when Peres ran against Netanyahu, Hamas launched suicide attacks to defeat Peres and destroy the peace process.

The fact that Israeli and Palestinian loonies want the same outcome is significant. Fortunately, the loonies are a minority, albeir a relatively powerless one.

i'm not sure why the recent election of hamas should come as a surprise to anybody. for years, we funnelled money to yasser arafat and his collection of self-centered goons. we watched silently as they stole that money and spent it on lavish lifestyles at the expense of the palestinians that they were supposed to watch over. in the meantime, hamas provided basic social services and cared for victims of the israeli genocide of the palestinian people. and now the palestinians have wisely decided that fatah is not the answer to their myraid problems, and we're supposed to be upset? at least hamas has never taken beatings from the israelis with a smile and a handshake.

the election of hamas has laid bare the many falsehoods and hypocrisies in our support for democracy. the united states will support a democratically-elected government so long as we approve of the views of said government. we have never really supported democracy in any of its forms, though this is an extremely public instance of our preference for unpopular dictators.

raise a toast to hamas. may they continue the good fight.

On days like this I get the feeling that MJ must be the loneliest guy in the world--also perhaps the sanest.  I appreciate the rationality of the call for a workable peace in a region where too many people are deaf, the frustration he must feel, and what must at times seem something like the curse of Cassandra--a prophet who sees the future and is ordained to be disbelieved first, then disdained when proven right by unfolding events.  But he's a strong guy, and I believe he won't give up no matter how bleak all this looks.

aMike

I would like to remind bar_kochba132 that Jerusalem has changed hands many, many times over the past few thousand years. He should remember that national power waxes and wanes over time. The Israelis are strong now compared with the arabs but in 10 years?100 years? 1000 years?

If I lived in Israel like bar does, I would think the idea of a permanent peace with the arabs would be very appealing insurance for future generations. The Jewish population of Israel will hover near 6 million for a VERY LONG time while arab populations will continue to expand significantly. If Israel continues to humiliate and occupy Palestinian lands payback will eventually come.

The only answer is not just a peace treaty but also for Israel to become the economic hub of the Mideast. Jewish inventiveness could provide an economic benefit to the whole region. If mutual needs are satisifed by both parties, it becomes too expensive for the relationship to break down and peace becomes more permanent. If peace benefits only one party, it is unfair and will not last.

The Palestinians have nothing left to lose, the Israelis have lots. Unless the Palestinians can see a more hopeful future, events like the growth and power of Hamas will be normal. Frankly, the Palestinians don't believe they will ever get a viable state. Even at Camp David both sides had different maps of what the negotiations meant.

Israel should CLEARLY deliniate it's maximum concessions for peace so that the Palestinians can see that it would be worthwhile. In my mind that would involve withdrawing from all settlements beyond the green line. That means Ariel, Ma'ale Adumim etc. which would be traded for the right of return. The only exception is a slight redrawing of the Jerusalem map to give Israel the Western Wall neighborhood. I realize this is not the conventional negotiating tactic to show your hand completely BUT conventional negotiations have gotten both sides nowhere.

Once the parameters of the states are agreed to,then negotiations on security guarantees and processes can begin. For the sake of all that is Holy and important Israel please take the initiative and figure out a way for a peace deal to be made.

my cat wants peace for all, so not very right wing on Israel, or much of anything else. (except that the food has to be to the right of the water:-)

the situation is Gaza at this point is basically that of a ginormous Attica.

the people have been locked into a hellish overcrowded prison, walled off on all sides, blockaded at the coast and starved of every economic opportunity. the periodic "incursions" of the Israeli army to commit some whoop-ass is just jailers beating up prisoners writ large.

we ARE responsible for this. MJ, I haven't always agreed with you in the past, thought you were too soft on Israel but today you nailed it.

Being democratically elected is not a get out of jail free card. The idea that if you elect your leaders they can do whatever they want and those who urged democracy on you cannot object misunderstands the nature of democracy: it is simply an opportunity for society direct itself. If it misdirects itself, it will be treated on that basis. If you elect Hitler, you get treated as though you elected Hitler. (If you elect Bush ....)

This is not to say that our treatmnt of Hamas was not counterproductive: it probably was.

And who was it who put the Palestinians in Jail?

What being made inevitable, primarily by the stupidity of Israel and only secondarily by the desperation of the Palestinians...
is a single binational state.
This was always the only way for Israel to avoid being a racialist rump-state.

And MJ Rosenberg blames the Palestinians first.
What a joke.

Right, aMike. My current cat, Denzel, is a very independent guy who barely acknowledges us (but whines for six hours after we return from a weekend away). His late still lamented predecessor, Murray, was extremely eloquent and reminded us of Adlai Stevenson (although Adlai did not have orange fur).

Would this be the same Tom Friedman who has repeatedly predicted sunshine and ponies in Iraq is just six months away? Who has been consistently wrong in nearly every measurable way for at least the past four years?

Why should we listen to what he has to say, except perhaps as a negative barometer?

I uprated, if only for your comment about how punishing Hamas winds up punishing the ordinary citizens of Gaza, who, as I understand it, aren't necessarily Hamas supporters. I read fairly extensively on the I-P issue, and I still have a fairly unclear picture on just how strong the support for Hamas really is among Palestinians, who have always been in the past the most secular of the Arabs.

Are the true hard-core Hamas supporters actually fairly few in number in Gaza? Much of what I read has suggested so, indicating that the election of Hamas was more of a referendum against the corruption of Fatah, and it's inability to achieve peace. What happens to Fatah supporters in Gaza, or those who are non-aligned, now? It's a highly relevant question at this point, it seems to me. The problem with finding the answer is so often reports are so colored with the biases so prevalent those who comment on the conflict that so much of the "data" becomes highly suspect. I hope someone here might have some factual (not propaganda-based) answers here; in the meantime, I'll wait for Juan Cole to weigh in.

Just how far has the process of Islamicization actually proceeded among the Palestinians, and what actions are most likely to stem it. This is another relevant question, the answer to which ought to guide the actions of all involved.

Know your enemy well, for in the end that is who you become. ~~Old Chinese Proverb

Deleted double post

Which is why the Palestinian population is dropping and becoming a minority. Oh wait, it isn't.

Palestinians know that Israelis are serious about killing them and trying to drive them out of I/P. Israelis are hardly serious about negotiating. The only rational Palestinian response, under the circumstances, is to match the Israelis in being unserious about negotiations and serious about killing Israelis.

I'd be interested in your thoughts about the thesis of Avraham Burg's recent book: that in Israel, Zionism and Jewishness have become two separate things.

Yes but, all of Zawahiri's condemnation messages about Hamas were basically based on anger that they formed a unity government with Fatah, with the secular devil that wanted to negotiate with Israel as it were. So now it looks like they are going in the direction he'd prefer, all they have to do to be pals is refuse to work with Israel in any way.

Wordie, I can't answer your question of course (not being in Gaza), but I think human nature is such that I'd expect the radicals to grow in strength the more desperate the situation becomes. This of course will be used by rightwingers in Israel and the US to justify even more extreme measures against the Palestinians leading, in turn, to even greater desperation and greater extremism. So it becomes a viscious cycle. What scares me is that I fear some on the right understand this--and actually welcome it. This may indeed be their solution to the I-P conflict, and it may very well succeed. I think we now need to grapple with the moral issue of whether such a solution, whether arrived at intentionally or accidently, is conscionable.

Dear Comrade MJ,
"Of course, I have no interest in being friends or even acquaintances with rightwingers or ethnic chauvinists of any kind. "
You are correct.
Who is not with us, is against us.

Your arrogance is bliss, until you're told you're wrong.

Hamas to Grant Amnesty to Fatah Leaders

Hamas calls for Alan Johnston's release

"If I lived in Israel like bar does, I would think the idea of a permanent peace with the arabs would be very appealing insurance for future generations."
Yes, Who is against Apple Pie. ?

"If Israel continues to humiliate and occupy Palestinian lands payback will eventually come."

Tel Aviv is Palestinian land. All of Israel is Palestinian land. Just ask Addull Hass.

"Even at Camp David both sides had different maps of what the negotiations meant."
This is a myth propagated by Arafat.

"BUT conventional negotiations have gotten both sides nowhere."
First, Barak pretty much offered Palesinians what you want to offer.
Second,Israel is doing very well, thank you very much,
and nobody know what happen in 1000 years.

"he Palestinians have nothing left to lose,"
Not in West Bank, THey don't want Gazafication of West Bank.

BTW, in general I agree with you. Israel should move civilians back beyond fence that's almost green line, and then negotiatite security arrangements.
This is waht they shoud've done in Gaza.
So, it's unilateral+ policy.

The only disagreement we have is the following, you think that Israel should be desperate for peace.
I don't agree. Israel will be much better with REAL peace, but Israel is OK without peace.
It's Palestinians who should be desperate for peace.

Looking back twenty years is as useful as claiming that the sun is responsible for Hamas deterioration into executing Fatah soldiers. Without the sun, Hamas wouldn't see too well at night and everything would have been different. If Israel would have adhere unilaterally to 242 but didn't allow refugees to return, you would have written that it's all Israel's fault for not dealing "properly" with the Palestinians and therefor Hamas ...

Dealing wth Hamas was a unified approach to all the west. The reason is simple: keeping existing agreements is the linchpin of diplomacy and statesmanship. Leaving Gaza was progress; it wasn't the best way to do it, but it gave the Palestinians land back. Instead the Qasams started to rain down on Sederot.

Hamas is the main culprit and worse, it will be the biggest loser. There are minor culprits such as Israel and the EU, but their responsibility is minor.

Barenea is a fine journalist, but called him the finest is childish.

MJ is "childish" for calling Barnea's Israel's finest journalist! I think this is what he was referring to,

Barnea to get Israel Prize

The Israel Prize Committee announced Tuesday that it would honor Yediot Achronot's top political pundit, Nahum Barnea, for his career in journalism at this year's Independence Day ceremonies. He is the first journalist so honored.

"Barnea always makes sure to be close to the action, in places of social turmoil, in times of war or terror attacks, and even when his presence there puts his life at risk," the Israel Prize judges wrote. Barnea, 63, is widely considered Israel's most influential journalists."

So who's childish?

I don't think the neocons are cheering. Eliot Abrams' plan has just blown up in their faces since Abbas is the one weakened here. Whether some kind of divide-and-conquer plan is working remains to be seen. 

Who are the gun-toting radicals here? Who attempted a bloody coup? Hamas finally had enough and ended the attacks by the Fatah "contras" (basically gangsters) we urged on. Hamas has been the voice of reason all along while their leaders have been jailed and killed, while U.S.-armed and Israeli-pressured Fatah factions have attempted to destroy them. Now they have routed the rebels.

Abbas declares emergency and dissolves the Unity Government, though he has no authority to do so. But Haniya says the government will continue and restore order. He confirms Hamas' commitment to a national unity government. He rejects any kind of Islamic state in the territories and calls for amnesty for the Fatah rebels.

If Hamas has included radical terrorists, it is because they have been forced in that direction. It could be argued that all of the fundamentalist religious groups are dangerous, including the hard-right Zionists, but who should choose the leaders of a people?

Hamas is the group that represents the Palestinians. Contrary to all of the hand-ringing over terrorist, Iran-controlled Hamas who wants to destroy Israel, the truth is they are the legitimate Palestinian group who would negotiate with Israel tomorrow. They would demand '67 borders and right to return, however, so they are cannot be serious "partners."

It was conceivable, as Thomas Friedman has asserted, that the world would be more stable and less prone to horrific state sponsored violence without Saddam in charge of Iraq.

Well, ahh, umm, did Friedman not bother reading that only Saddam's terror was capable of holding Iraq together if he was not able to figure that out himself?

It was pretty much the same as the breakup of Yugoslavia with the death of Tito.

At least Joe Biden is onto something though it is hardly our job to redraw boundaries.

Apparently Friedman is as clueless as Bush.

Best, Terry

davai - Come on you really don't believe the crap you are writing do you? Playing snark is unbecoming. The differences in territorial understandings was due to Barak's convoluted offer of a portion of the West Bank that slowly would expand over time to include 90%-91% of the West Bank. However, bisecting Jewish roads and the land associated with them was never cleared up. Barak in his percentages never considered that Jewish land but to the Palestinians it might as well have been.In addition control of the border with Jordan was never resolved Barak's offer at Camp David was no where close to acceptable. Taba came pretty close.

A majority of Palestinians favor a peace with Israel and do NOT consider Tel Aviv to be in Palestine. Have you been to the West Bank in recent years? Their condition is pretty damn bad. Whether it is at the bottom is a matter of perspective. Unless there is a peace agreement soon, the West Bank will also be Gazified. I guarantee it.

I do not believe in unilateral moves - Gaza proves it's lack of utility. What I am recommending is a statement from Israel outlining the ultimate parameters. Then negotiations start.

Israel should be desperate for peace. They are 6 million people in a sea of 300 million arabs who hate their guts. Israel has two choices - reach a permanent peace or be in a permanent state of existential war. Israel has won the last 3 wars - are you willing to bet your heritage on that winning streak lasting forever?

I am taking the liberty of posting a trenchant historical analysis of the situation under discussion by As'ad Abu Khalil. He takes no prisoners and has no heroes; a factor of being born and raised in Beirut? There's something here for everyone.

(Because of the length of the piece, I've tried to break it up into coherant paragraphs so blame me if the result is clumsy):

"Well, the conspiracy is unfolding before your eyes now. It is unfolding in Iraq, Somalia, Lebanon, Palestine, and Afghanistan. Do you really need more evidence of a US-Saudi-Israeli conspiracy in the Middle East region? You look at Palestine and you see a reference to a Palestinian "civil war" as it is being called. People used to say that in Palestine it is very unlikely to have a Palestine civil war because the Palestinians have harbored a strong aversion to internecine battles and strife. But that is not true: collaborationist Palestinians have been killing other Palestinians, and dragging other factions into civil war, since at least the 1936-39 Palestinian revolt.

The collaborationists were then represented by the Nashashibis and the Hashemites of Jordan. And one should remember that Fath under Arafat was always more willing to fight other Palestinians than to fight Israel. Fath under Arafat fought other Palestinian organizations prior to Black September in Jordan, and then did the same in Lebanon. But what is new today is that the entire Palestinian leadership of the Fath movement was eliminated (assassinated by Israel and its allies), and a new leadership was installed by the US and Israel (with the support of client Arab regimes).

We have never had in the history of Palestinian struggle a more open collaborationist regime in Palestine. And it is openly aligned with Israel and the US: this is unprecedented. I mean, even under the Village Leagues and the notorious Muhammad `Ali Al-Ja`bari: there were those silly denials of collaboration, and the Palestinians made sure that those attempts don't go very far.

Not anymore. And you see press reports to Salam Fayyad as "independent". Independent? Who brought this World Bank official to Palestine? Who forced him on Yasir Arafat? The Palestinian people? His own popularity or popular base? He is as much an independent as much as Mr. Bush is a "uniter not a divider."

And the characters in this saga are just almost fictional. Yesterday, the official statement or Ottoman Faraman (it was really drafted and read as a faraman) by Mahmoud Abbas was read by none other than Tayyib `Abdur-Rahim. Are you kidding me? He was dressed in a fancy suit, but this is `Abdur-Rahim. We knew him from his days in Lebanon. He was known as Abu At-Tayyib: he was in charge of Force 17. Force 17 was responsible under Arafat of dirty tricks and dirty fighting and dirty murders. That was its mission. And to have this same man yesterday speak on "constitutional matters" was laughable. But less laughable than Condoleezza Rice offering opinions on the proper constitutional procedures in Palestine.

Don't get me wrong: I have never been a fan of Hamas: not of its ideology and not of its practices. I also believe that, like Fath, they seem to be better fighters against other Palestinians than against Israeli occupation soldiers. That has to be observed. And Hamas has the blood of innocent Palestinians on its hands--not as much as Fath gangs, but still. Yet, this crisis and the clashes are without a doubt the responsibility of the Dahlan gangs. They basically refused to accept the democratic results of the last parliamentary elections (under occupation): they just--under instruction from Israel and US--would not allow Hamas to rule. They were arming and building armed gangs to take on Hamas and whoever was willing to defy Israel and US dictates.

But the US and Israel (along with the Arab clients) did not know that no matter how much money and weapons they dump in the lap of Dahlan gangs, these fighters lack the cause or doctrine to make them effective as a fighting force. The last time Dahlan held a public rally in Gaza, he surrounded himself with kids and women because he could not trust what should have been his own constituency. There are lessons of what happened in Gaza for Lebanon and Iraq and elsewhere: in terms of the arming of Sunni tribes and Shi`ite gangs in Iraq, and the arming of the Hariri forces in Lebanon. These will not fight, and would crumble at the first clash.

The Bush Doctrine is deep trouble, make no mistake about it. But then again: how foolish was the decision by Hamas to run in the elections and to accept to rule? They basically foolishly assumed that there was a true democracy in Palestine when it is under occupation? (The same may apply to the same calculations of Hizbullah when they joined the Sanyurah government).

The Saudi media--without a sense of irony--are now resorting to equating Hamas with Taliban and Al-Qa`idah: as if what works in New York City can really work in the Arab world. They think that they can really convince Arab public opinion that they (House of Saud and its allies) represent a secular alternative? And please, don't give me that line that Fath is "a secular organization." We know Fath well, and know that Arafat was guilty of arming and financing fanatical religious groups since his days in Lebanon: just like what Arab regimes and Israel (and US) have done.

Khalid Mish`al today responded to that allegation in his press conference by denying that Hamas plans to impose a religious order. Don't get me wrong: both Hamas and Hizbullah tried to do that in years past before they realized that they can't continue to grow if they did not change. Neither the Lebanese nor the Palestinians would put up with a religious order.

Both are sinful people, thankfully."

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

blowback recipients are unnamed, yet we know that they were last seen approaching terminal velocity as they left the top of a high building without the aid of stairs.

blowback recipients are those who have been killed by bullets, then their bodies desecrated in fantastical ways. today. yesterday. all next week too.

and Hamas says that an Amnesty has been called for, so its okay.
and Hamas says that they will let go the Brit journalist, so its okay.

tell that to THIS GUY!

NOW THAT IS BLOWBACK!

"Israel has two choices - reach a permanent peace or be in a permanent state of existential war"

You and MJ are funny guys.
Did it ever cross your mind that Israel might not have a choice right now to "reach a permanent peace".

BTW, You are making Hamas argument that time works agains Israel and that Palestinians should just wait.

If you are correct, peace is impossible.
But you are wrong, Israel is not desperate,
time doesn't work against Israel and Palestinians are better off seeking peace with Israel instead of waiting

How amazingly stupid for anyone to think time is on Israel's side without peace.
The Pakistanis have nuclear bombs. The Iranians are getting them. The Egyptian and Jordanian governments could be taken over tomorrow by the vast majority of their citizens who oppose peace with Israel.
The only way to neutralize all these threats is by Israel achieving peace with the Palestinians. Even the Mullahs in Iran say that, although they oppose an I-P deal, they will accept whatever the Pals agree too.
Those who claim to believe that time is on Israel's side are about as wise as the German Jews who chose not to flee Germany in 1933 because Hitler was a passing phenomenon.
Fortunately, this time no flight is required. All Israel needs to do is sign a peace agreement with security guarantees with the Pals and Israel's future is assured.
The best safest years in Israel's history were the fall of 1997 through the fall of 2000 when Israel and Arafat worked together to thwart terror. Virtually no Israelis died in terror attacks during that period (six inside Israel over 3 years in contrast to a thousand over the next three after Olso collapsed), the economy hit all time records as did tourism.
But the Right hates even the memory of that period. With peace Israel becomes the secure secular modern nation Herzl envisioned it to be.
Endless war and ultimate extinction is the favored solution for the apocalyptic right.
These people are pro-Israel only in the sense that their goal is mourning for a lost Jewish state rather than celebrating a living one.

While i had never read of Israeli involvement in the starting of Hamas before (not that i am a great scholar or anything), it doesn't surprise me in the least. Western powers have historically supported Islamic fundamentalism when it suited them, perhaps even giving birth to it in the 1950s and 60s in order to destabilize Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt. Nasser, after all, was a nationalist and was cozying up to the Soviets and turning his country socialist.

Why do so many Western powers still have this colonial era philosophy that they can play God in other countries to their benefit, and with impunity to boot? From Mr. Rosenberg's article it seems clear Israel is suffering from that kind of mindset, and I think the same mindset led the neo-cons here at home to think that Iraq could be their new stomping ground.

Troll-rated for copyright infringement. You can't just cut and paste copyrighted material like that.

The quietest period since Oslo was signed in 1993 was the period when the "right-wing" Netanyahu-Likud gov't was in power. Ironic, wouldn't you say.

BTW-I stand by my assertion that time is working in Israel's favor. There hasn't been peace for the almost 60 years of Israel's existence, and Israel has only gotten stronger compared to the Arabs during that whole period. Thus, history has shown that up until now, time HAS worked in Israel's favor.

The Gazan's have NOT been living under "oppression for 40 years" as has been asserted here. The period of "Israeli occupation" before the Oslo terrorists were imported by Rabin and Peres was the BEST the Gazans ever had. They had INDEPENDENT income, not dependent on getting handouts from various corrupt terrorist organizations like FATAH and HAMAS. They had full employment, the money went straight into each individual's pocket, and they did not have to pay protection money to the various mafias that have been set up there. Israel's abandonment of Gaza did NOT bring "democracy" or "end their oppression". It was Arafat that brought corruption and oppression to the Gazans and HAMAS will simply continue the deterioration.

J. McCutchen

On the RoadMap - A Two State Solution

Robert Fisk: Welcome to 'Palestine'
How troublesome the Muslims of the Middle East are. First, we demand that the Palestinians embrace democracy and then they elect the wrong party - Hamas - and then Hamas wins a mini-civil war and presides over the Gaza Strip. And we Westerners still want to negotiate with the discredited President, Mahmoud Abbas. Today "Palestine" - and let's keep those quotation marks in place - has two prime ministers. Welcome to the Middle East.

You're calling unilateral disengagement from the Gaza strip fake territory? Also, do you know that nearly 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs of Palestinian origin?

Not ironic. His tenure was the time of full Israeli-PLO security cooperation. In fact, Bibi called Arafat on the phone to thank him personally for thwarting terror.
I give credit to Bibi for one thing: fully cooperating with Arafat to reduce terror.

Look, bar_kochba, I'll assume you are Jewish and it is only natural that you would be an Israeli chauvinist.

However, I am NOT Jewish and therefore I see myself as an AMERICAN first and foremost, and I am entitled to do so without pro-Israeli chauvinist nitwits accusing me of anti-semitism or loving terrorists.

I am goddamned sick and tired of Zionists expecting the rest of us to treat Israel like the 51st state, like some sort of sacred cow, where Israeli politicians have entirely too much influence on our Middle Eastern foreign policy.

In fact, certain politicians - especially the neo-conservatives who have so brilliantly determined our foreign policy thus far in the 21st century *coughIraqcoughIsraelandPalestinecough* - have so conflated Israeli interests with American interests that it is no stretch at all to say that American interests often seem to be suborned to what is in the best interests of Israel.

It is long past time for sanity to return to our foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel. American interests come first; where they coincide with Israeli interests, sure let's work with them. But only because it is in OUR interest. Not because Israel is God's favorite country; I don't believe in your Bible or Torah and I think it is absolutely beyond idiotic for 1st century theology to be determining 21st century foreign policy.

God is not going to punish the US if we dare to say 'no' to Israel every so often. There is no God. If one wants God determining his/her nation's foreign policy, I can think of several countries in the Middle East or Southeast Asia to where one should relocate.

This looks like the leaders of Hamas have gotten what they were fighting for in Gaza, then suddenly realized that there is going to be another dawn after the day of victory and the portents do not look good.

I would suspect that Hamas in Gaza has been fighting mostly as individual cells or small units without much central leadership. The centralizing functions that have been performed have been either support to civilians or providing weapons and food to the fighters. There may be some strategists at work in Gaza Hamas, but their effects have been limited recently.

Now, suddenly, the fighters are getting the chance to lift their heads out of the foxholes and look around them. The shooting has stopped, but what they see is not very pretty. Just feeding the million-and-a-half population of Gaza is extremely uncertain, and they are going to have to depend on the kindness of the very people they were shooting at yesterday.

I don't think that it is much of a positive statement about Hamas that at the last second when disaster looms they try to stand up and yell "King's X". The Grant of Amnesty to Fatah Leaders (none of whom are in Gaza anymore) is good PR, little else. So is the call for Alan Johnston's release. I'm not sure that even meets the absolute minimum to be expected from the newly empowered Hamas-in-Gaza.

That said, this is a good time to try to get them to the table while preventing a disaster that every Muslim nation in the world would consider genocide. Starving the Palestinians in Gaze is simply not a rational strategy.

But the take-over of Gaza by Hamas is a signal to all sides that the time for talking has arrived. Any idiot (*cough* Cheney - Neocons - extremist and Likud Jews *cough*) who show up with guns and threats at this time clearly don't want any solution at all.

Hamas has won what is clearly a Pyrrhic victory. They will really win only by the grace of their enemies. But the right-wingers (American and Israeli) have been badly embarrassed, and to recover their sense of "face" they are going to refuse to acknowledge the Hamas victory and attempt to step on the throat of the Hamas Palestinians and force them to acknowlege how wrong they are. That would be a stupid move, but certainly the kind of logic that the NeoCons used to get America to invade Iraq.

Making something positive out of this change in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict will require that Hamas be brought in to the table of the powerful and melded with Fatah to provide a negotiating partner, while keeping the American and Israeli right-wing idiots from salving their wounded pride. Any Israeli who begins to thread this needle successfully better watch his back - literally. Unfortunately, there is no American in a position of power who is capable of contributing to the solution, especially with Cheney and the NeoCons still very active and conducting the kinds of bureaucratic terrorism that John Bolton is famous for. Even without those impediments, Condi Rice simply isn't capable of contributing. [Maybe if she were bribed with shoes? Naw, she's still not up to it. No matter how she is motivated, the capability is not there.]

In any case, this is a real potential turning point. It could get somewhere. But the enemies of success don't like that, and the window won't remain open more than about one Friedman Unit.

That's my opinion from here in the sticks of Texas, anyway.

The fact that Israeli and Palestinian loonies want the same outcome is significant. Fortunately, the loonies are a minority, albeir a relatively powerless one.

are you sure about that? After all, it only took one loonie assassinating Rabin to derail the peace process. Time and again, whenever Israel and Palestine seemed to be making real progress, all it took was some loonies to start a suicide bombing campaign to shred the whole thing to pieces.

The loonie settlers have an influence far outstripping their numbers.

Also, your own example just above the quoted paragraph.

I will not debate with someone who spouts arguments like yours. I thought no reasonable person would continue to spread the Jewish Conspiracy rumors after the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was debunked.

That's a heck of a population increase for a people supposedly practicing a "supernatural death cult."

Supernatural Death Cult? You sound like a bigot.

gen·o·cide
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

There's the definition. The ugly bias it reveals is the hypocritical racist bigot notions you think are acceptable as long as others do not apply them to you. You're an ignorant coward and a fool.
Doesn't Israel advocate the murder of Hamas members? Isn't Hamas a political group?

Comparing the population of different groups of people 30-40 years apart with no death or casualty rates or causes of death means nothing.

If a Nazi mentioned the number of Jews in Germany or Europe in 2000 and compared that number to what it was pre-WW2 and it happened to be higher would that mean there was no holocaust? You're a buffoon and a complete scumbag.

Fine, killing of leaders of Hamas or Al Qaeda is genocide in your mind.
Why argue about definitions, as long as it's clear what you mean.

The Israelis have their share of evil fascists, but they are not major players in Israeli politics,

Unfortunately, less hardcore bigoted warmongers *are* major players in Israeli politics -- and a fair amount of the time they pander to the worst elements.

Most of the "settler movement" are really nasty right-wingers, and the Israeli government simply won't get rid of the West Bank settlements, even the ones which they never authorized.

The path of sanity became clear when Sharon, who *set up* much of the settlements in the first place, ended the Gaza settlements. But the power of the extremist bigots in Israeli politics is still pretty solid.

There's a really strong left-wing, sane movement in Israel, but with the assassination of Rabin, its successes were sabotaged. Now, left-wing Israelis are emigrating (to the US, Europe, etc.), because they see the handwriting on the wall; unfortunately this gives even more power to the extremist right wing.

Also, the use of the term "genocide" by several of the above posters (who were not mysteriously deleted) is problematic.

Yes, it's inaccurate: it's simply exaggeration, though. It's become clear that there is no substantial movement to exterminate Palestinians. Consider them "subhuman", abuse them, steal from them, use them as underpaid labor, remove their human rights, yes: exterminate them, no. "Apartheid" is certainly a more accurate term!

underestimate the supernatural death cult of Hamas...and the Palestinian people in general.

Ever met any Palestinians? I have, my Jewish friends have, and they're mostly just ordinary people who want to live ordinary lives like the rest of us, but suffer under a occupation where they may be hit by Israeli rocket fire on the way to school, or randomly refused permission to go to work, harrassed, or arrested for no reason at a checkpoint. Probably better than being black in the Jim Crow south -- lynchings of Palestianians are unheard of, etc. -- just to put it in perspective -- but still the sort of thing which leads people to radicalism and willingness to give up their own lives.

with Sephardics at the bottom of those bigots' dictated totem pole.

Not quite true. Secular Jews are tat the bottom of the totem pole. Non-Orthodox Jews are actually *legally* inferior in Israel, in the family law system.

And a correction on "genocide". From what I can tell, the goal of the extremists, the people like the IDF soldier who told one of my friends that Palestinians were (translated from the Hebrew) "sub-human" and IIRC "animals", is generally not extermination, but rather either expulsion, ghettoization, or perhaps enslavement. After all, we don't usually kill animals (unless we want to eat them or they threaten us), but rather harness them and use them to do useful work.

Remaking Iraq might have worked if it hadn't been done by idiots. But the thing is, we knew it was going to be done by idiots, because it was *Bush* for goodness sake.

An Iraq invasion might have worked to benefit the Iraqi people if not done by idiots (for starters, the Baathist government should have been left almost completely intact, with individual pieces replaced piecemeal as needed, because it ran over half the economy, the police, etc.) -- but it still would not have benefited the US, and would have cost the US a huge amount, so it was a completely inconceivable option to sane people. Even if we were going to do idealistic invasions purely for the benefit of others, there were much higher priority targets than Iraq (starting with Afghanistan, which Bush also screwed up royally).

Bigot, buffoon, scumbag, racist....now there's thoughtful discourse. However, some points are well taken, especially the critique of my application of the "supernatural death cult" to the entirety of Palestinians. Hamas's ideology is that if they blow themselves up and kill Jews, they will go live in a fabulous place in the sky with Allah and lots of virgins. That sounds like a supernatural death cult to me-- what would you call it? A deep and profound faith? If a majority of the Palestinian people don't also embrace this belief, then why did they elect Hamas? However, I accept the point that there are many--probably about 40% of the total, which would be a couple of million people-- secular or moderate Palestinians that don't embrace that ideology, with a far larger share of them on the less impoverished, more educated West Bank than in Gaza-- and of course, almost no Palestinian-Americans embrace it, either. My point was that MJR's belief that Hamas can be negotiated with in a reasonable way rests on the assumption that they see the world in essentially the same way that we do-- rational, secular, scientific, whatever you want to call it. It's the same mistake the neo-cons made when they thought the Iraqis would choose a secular Shiite leadership vs. demagogues like al Sadr. Any "peace" with Hamas is merely a cease fire so they can increase their weaponry for a doomed quixotic war with Israel. I don't think of Arabs or Palestinians as subhuman any more than I think of the white European victims of Hamburg or Dresden as subhuman, and indeed, the Arabs are are same "race" as the Jews. I hate the Bush gang as much as anyone who reads this blog, but to assume that Hamas or Hezbollah are really a bunch of misunderstood nice guys who will come around once we start talking to them is wishful thinking, if not downright naive and ignorant. The careless use of the term "genocide" and the silly ad hominem attacks speak for themselves.

J. McCutchen

Another SHOCKER in the continually deepening disaster that is US middle east policy. Like this should be a surprise???

Not only was it the predictable and predicted consequence of US/Israeli policy of starving the democratically elected government of Palestine, the US with Jordan, actively aided the militias of Mohammed Dahlan, a gentleman whose post-graduate studies including a stint at the School for the Americas - a certified "freedom fighter".

As calamity piles on calamity, the question arises - Is the Bush regime that incompetent or did it the intend the result all along?

Then I don't don't understand your original comment.
What you want Hamas rules of Gaza to negotiate with Israel?
Surrender of Israel? I'm not sure such negotiation would be productive at the moment. We should wait for time to work a little more against Israel

[duplicate]

"Hamas MAY be willing to settle right now"
For what ?

Are there thousands of Jews that want to go back? Because if there aren't, it's not really a serious issue.

AJM tells us: "For the Muslims, the death of a Jew is to receive the compensation called for by the death of 4/5 of a camel. (From NYT Magazine article of some years back.) (And this is from before the creation of Israel)."

I read that article. Yup, a Jew is worth 4/5 of a camel to Muslims. A Lutheran is worth a 1/2 a living dog to a Methodist. But, most outrageous, the death of an illegal Latino is to receive the compensation called for by the death of 4/5 of a pigeon.
And this is all from before the creation of Israel.

Hamas is not a death cult it's hard core and smart. They're fighting using extreme tactics, but others have as well.
Here's something I've posted before for those interested in Hamas, and not just in paranoid bullshit.

Sure, leaders of Hamas are not interested in death cult for themselves and their families. The rest of Palestinians is a different matter.

So, you only object to theft of land from Jews, not by Jews?

"relatively powerless one"?! Surely that's a typo. No one but the loonies have much power on either side.

In Gaza they don't suffer under an occupation...

Oh come on, davai.

• Who controls the borders?
• Who controls the airspace?
• Who controls the waterways?'
• Who controls family reunification?
• Who controls the population registry?
  
• Who controls the movement of goods in and out of Gaza?
• Who controls the utilities?*
• Who controls the tax monies?

Some "disengagement" - when Israel all along has continued to exercise a huge amount of control over the lives of average Gazans. And let's not forget the frequent violent Israeli military incursions, admittedly in response to shelling from Gaza, but completely disproportionate to them, which constitute group punishment of those average Gazans. (For more info, see the b'tselem page on the scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip.)

* No doubt you are planning to argue that the Palestinians should have planned for their own energy needs, but will neglect to mention that in the summer of '06 Israel bombed to smithereens the one independent electric power station in Gaza.

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

On the contrary, I have never defended the actions of those nations that have oppressed Jews. 

I have asked about the priorities of Jews who are oh so outraged about their Nazi-stolen art when they won't give back the stolen homeland of the Palestinians, but this is an issue of priorities. 

These pseudo-responses don't fool anyone...

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group

Conflating individuals is oh so convenient for defenders of racism.

Davai says: "I'm proud supporter of Jewish state of Israel."
I say: "I'm a proud supporter of the early Beatles."

Davai, is there a reason you don't live in the country of your accent. Such a proud Zionist might want to consider living in the place where his loyalties lie. I guess that is either Israel or Russia.

I honestly do not believe that those whose loyalties to America are secondary should have any say on US politics or policy.

"Of course, I have no interest in being friends or even acquaintances with rightwingers or ethnic chauvinists of any kind. MJ Rosenberg

You don't like ethnic chauvinists? I'm glad to see you renounce Zionism, You've finally decided to become a real Jew.

Look MJ, I loves me some Judaism, but no matter how much spiritual comfort and inspiration I derive from my religion, I have never seen it as a good template for a sucessful state, nor has it ever been such.

Any state which takes into account the religions of it's inhabitants cannot call itself a democracy.

hamas wins thanks to leftists like yourself who insisted Israel retreat from Gaza and ethnically cleanse its Jewish residents. Any sane person could have predicted what would happen. You'll never admit you were wrong, nor will you ever hold arabs responsible for their own barbarism.

Ehh, I see from the google cache that Rosenberg had "caduq" without other comment, and it's mindreading to say one way or the other whether that was intended to misleadingly convey Arabic or was just a mistake of ignorance or was just a plain misspelling.

lally: Thanks for the link to the tabula gaza blog, which is interesting. The two I occasionally frequent appear to be not operating right at the moment (easy to understand why). You might like to take a look though.

One blog, by a young Gazan writer, Laila El-Haddad, is Raising Yousuf, Unplugged: diary of a Palestinian mother:

I am a Palestinian journalist who divides her time between Gaza and the United States, where Yousuf's father, a Palestinian refugee denied his right of return to Palestine, and thus OUR right as a family to live together, resides. This blog is about the trials of raising our son between Gaza and the US, while working as a journalist, and everything that entails from potty training to border crossings. Together, we endure a lot, and the personal becomes political. This is our story.

The last entry for Raising Yousef was on June 12, when she and her son were trying to cross the border into Egypt. 

The second is From Gaza with Love, written by a woman physician, Dr. Mona El Farra, who works for the Red Crescent and has been trying to get medical care to Palestinian children through the Mideast Children's Alliance (www.mecaforpeace.org). The most recent entry was June 9, when she was still in the U.S. (she testified at the U.N.).M

My apologies to both you and Purple State for not replying sooner - this has me pretty upset.

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals..." ~~ Iraq Study Group