Our Sources, On The Record
Today we'll let our sources do the talking. We brought four of them together at a forum last month at the University of the District of Columbia.
The collective knowledge was deep—the participants were former CIA analysts Mel Goodman and Larry Johnson; W. Patrick Lang, who ran the Middle East section for the Defense Intelligence Agency; and retired Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, who was Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff.
All four are angry about the Iraq invasion, and name culprits in the creation of one of the greatest messes in U.S. history.
Dick Cheney as Geppetto:
Mel Goodman:
“…it was just a classic case of agitprop: There was a propaganda campaign, and we were taken in by it, and the press was taken in by it—but the chief operator in all this, let's call him "Geppetto," was Dick Cheney. This is Dick Cheney's war. It has always been Dick Cheney's war….the one thing that Dick Cheney needed to sell this war, to market his war, was nuclear reconstitution. And remember, I think it was September the 8th, [2002], when all of the high-level members of the Bush Administration went on national television with "smoking gun" and the mushroom cloud. And what Joe Wilson was threatening, was to take down the argument about nuclear reconstitution, when he said, "I'll tell you what I found in Niger. I found nothing."
So, you had only two pins for nuclear reconstitution. It was Niger, enriched uranium, and the phony 16 words; and you had the aluminum tubes. And frankly, I'll pass the question to Larry, because people feel that Tenet should have resigned. I've always thought that Colin Powell should resign. Colin Powell is a hell of a lot more popular in this country than George Bush. If Colin Powell had stood up, and said what he thought, and told us what he knew, there would have been no war.”
Tenet and his Medals
Larry Johnson:
"George Tenet has tried to run away from the letter that several of us drafted decrying his book, and calling upon him to give back the proceeds, at least some of the proceeds, from his advance, to the soldiers, and the families of soldiers, who were killed or wounded in Iraq. Because in my view, and our view, the man has blood on his hands. He had a chance, if he would have spoken up, he could have stopped this rush to war. He chose to remain silent, but not just remain silent, he chose to be an active participant in a deception that was carried out, not only against other U.S. government officials, but against the American people.”
Who lied?
Lawrence Wilkerson:
“Either George Tenet is lying through his teeth, or Tyler Drumheller is lying through his teeth—the chief of the European division for CIA—with regard to one of the most important pillars of Secretary Powell's presentation at the United Nations: the mobile biological laboratories. One of the things Secretary Powell and I told Mr. Tenet and Mr. McLaughlin at the outset of our frenetic five or six days, trying to get ready for the UN, was "multiple sources." We will not take anything and put it in this presentation, unless there are multiple, independently corroborated sources for the items we're putting in the testimony. That was the going-in position.
Now, I learn, I think—although George has again put some doubt in my mind—that there was a single source for the mobile biological laboratories; that his codename was Curveball; and that there were several, some very key, dissents as to this individual's testimony, during or before the preparation of the Secretary of State. None of that, ladies and gentlemen, none of that was revealed to the Secretary of State, or to me, or to any member of my team, by either John McLaughlin or George Tenet. So, that's my first area of concern: Who's lying? This isn't an intelligence matter. This is worse, far worse. This isn't just cherry-picking, or political spin on intelligence. This is plain-out outright falsehood to the Secretary of State.”
Mel Goodman:
“George Tenet is an apparatchik. I'm not impressed with George Tenet. He should never have been CIA Director. But how did Colin Powell, a military officer, a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, get taken in by the aluminum tubes, which was driven by a kid, a young kid engineer by the name of Joe Turner, at the CIA, who stood up somehow to all of the PhD scientists of the weapons labs, and Department of Energy, because Foley [Alan Foley, the head of WINPAC at CIA] wanted this argument out there to make the case for war. I think Powell could have stopped this.”
Look to the process
Lawrence Wilkerson:
“Our political process, not just the Federal bureaucracy, but our political process is broken. And somehow, we as Americans have allowed that to happen. And I don't know what you think about it, but I'm damned mad about it, and I'm doing everything I can, across the country, to tell people that I believe this; to tell them how I think the Federal bureaucracy needs to be repaired—including the Congress of the United States; its committee relationship with the Executive branch is absurd, it's an anachronism. The Congress needs to be reformed, the Executive branch needs to be reformed.
But the big problem we're confronted with is going to come to bear again, very shortly: it's this insane process where you have less than 50% of Americans electing our President. And if you think about that, that means one in four, actually elect him or her. And this insane process of primaries, and factions, as Washington called it—not parties; he called it "factions"—who go out there and appeal to their extremes, and are successful in doing so! We have to do something about that, and the only people who can do something about that, are us.”
The bottom line
Lawrence Wilkerson:
“I think our Founding Fathers would be appalled, that in some 200-plus years, we never used that clause they put in our Constitution, except fecklessly, and in one case, successfully. The Articles of Impeachment that threatened Richard Nixon certainly were the reason he decided to resign. I believe, if you asked Hamilton, Madison, Monroe, even Washington, they would probably say, ‘Yeah, probably about every 30 years, they'll take somebody out.’ And if you look at Clinton, and the peccadilloes for which they brought impeachment proceedings against him, as compared with the ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’—and that's a direct quote from Article II of the Constitution—with regard to Cheney and Bush, I think there's a helluva lot better case, with regard to Cheney and Bush.”











Comments (23)
"Now, I learn, I think—although George has again put some doubt in my mind—that there was a single source for the mobile biological laboratories; that his codename was Curveball; and that there were several, some very key, dissents as to this individual's testimony, during or before the preparation of the Secretary of State. None of that, ladies and gentlemen, none of that was revealed to the Secretary of State, or to me, or to any member of my team, by either John McLaughlin or George Tenet."
Clearly the blame lies on the NSA at that time.
June 14, 2007 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
That issue amazes me. The single source for those labs was, in fact, the British company Marconi Command & Control, that sold the ballon mobiles to the Iraqis. This is where we get to that not-so-fine line between misinterpretation and patent lying.
The Observer article linked to claimed this may have embarrassed Blair's government, as if it was misinterpreted. But I'd say the odds that the units had identifying tags with serial numbers and "Marconi Command and Control, UK" stamped right on a bronze label are pretty high - meaning that the folks who found them knew from the get-go what they were and where they came from. I mean, why would the Iraqis remove the labels?
Neoboho
June 14, 2007 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
And yet, Nancy Pelosi has taken the position that Bush is not worth impeaching. I don't think there is a better test of a politician than their position on impeaching Cheney and Bush. In my view, that's what the 2008 elections should be about. Did you vote to impeach? Did you vote to convict? Did you defend Cheney and Bush?
June 14, 2007 9:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've spent time trying to get people to register to vote and here’s what I've been told:
1. My vote doesn't count, so why bother?
2. All politicians lie, so why bother?
3. Neither party appeals to me, so why bother?
4. The voting system is corrupt, so why bother?
5. I don't have time to do all the research necessary to find out which candidate best represents my views, so why bother?
6. I don't know anything about the issues, so why bother?
If we do not reform the electoral system, reform the way candidates campaign, find more effective -- and TRUTHFUL -- ways of informing people about the candidates and the issues (corporate controlled media is more interested in making money than educating the electorate), and impressing upon ALL American citizens (not just those registered to vote) that their PARTICIPATION in this democracy is more vital to improving their quality of life than working 60 hours a week so their income and jobs can be sent overseas ...
THEN WHY BOTHER?
Until then, our country will be under a much greater threat than terrorism: our country is being destroyed from within by IGNORANCE AND APATHY orchestrated by an elite class who benefit from an uninformed and disenfranchised populace.
Morgan
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plea; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.
-- William Lloyd Garrison (1805 - 1879)
June 14, 2007 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ralph Nader is right - money has corrupted the system. Public financing to take money out of the picture is the answer.
Tom
June 14, 2007 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
... and thanks so much Nancy for deciding that the future of our country is not worth impeaching Cheney/Bush.
Tom
June 14, 2007 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
As far as the current adminstration goes...they've lied, they continue to lie and they will lie in the future. And the worst thing about it is I see no indication from the current congress that anyone is going to step up and forcefully make the case for accountability for the lies...especially, now, seeing that The Speaker has taken the impeachment option off the table.
I see the congress as having tunnel vision. Right now they seem completely focused on the USA purge and are incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time. So the only oversight will continue to be the investigation of DoJ misconduct. And the more serious crimes committed by people in the highest seats of power in our government are going unaddressed. Meanwhile the same criminal acts which were used to justify war with Iraq will be employed in preparing to make the bogus case for war with Iran.
But I guess that if they aren't worth impeaching they will continue to operate with a "business as usual" mentality...next stop in Bush's "Magical Mystery Tour" of illegitimate wars of aggression is Tehran. Nobody in the legislative branch, the only branch that has the power to declare war, has shown they have the backbone to try to stop our tyrannical war criminal rulers. And until that happens it doesn't matter how many facts there are that crimes were committed...
June 14, 2007 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
In my former homeland, Poland, there is on and off witchhunt for folks who cooperated with the secret police during Communist times, which was, of course, a perfectly legal activity when it was performed. Distasteful in most cases, but legal.
Here we have a case that is a bit similar. If a country has to rely on the conscience and non-conformism of its top spook, that country is in a bad shape. The top spook is supposed to support the executive branch in the dirtiest schemes, basically, he is deputized to commit crimes on behalf of his motherland.
Some of these crimes are straightforward, so-called "operations". But collecting shit to be used for propaganda purposes is part of the job too. And it is not the job of CIA to provide "sanity check" (propaganda is supposed to fool OTHERS). For example, when Reagan wanted huge defence build-up, CIA produced incontrovertible evidence that military effort of Soviet Union consumes more than the totality it its economy (or was it half?).
One of the purposes of CIA is to provide truthful and sober facts to the executive branch (and, to a much lesser extend, to Congress). But they have to collect shit too. CIA was created so the Executive could use it and abuse, with the hope that someone, somewhere, has wisdom and conscience.
Thus, I am inclined to cut Tenet some slack. The only problem is that we have no way of knowing what is going on in the world, other than reading newspapers, blogs etc. But that is perhaps better than having some foolish illusions.
June 14, 2007 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the US Attorney purge is exactly the right place for them to focus right now. Without exposing the DoJ for what it has become it will continue to be seen as legitimate. So they can open all sorts of investigations into walking and chewing gum, but they'll be stuck with Alberto Gonzales and his ship of fools handling the prosecutions.
And, of course, as has been repeated over and over again, there aren't enough votes in the Senate to convict even if they do impeach someone right now. It would be a complete waste of time.
June 14, 2007 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would not be a complete waste of time -- it would be a message to would be future "unitary executives" that they will be held accountable, convicted or not.
Tom
June 14, 2007 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
First off I agree with Tom's comments.
Secondly, I would like to add that there doesn't need to be an impeachment to have that be an effective tool. Why take the option completely off the table? Also I don't understand why the DoJ and the intentional manipulation of and creation of phony intelligence by the Whitehouse can't be investigated at the same time. Hammer away on all as many things as possible or it'll make it easier for Bush to run out the clock...
June 14, 2007 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is a very thought-provoking comment.
I grew up in the U.S. (I am 50 now, so I grew up in the middle of the thermonuclear threats from the cold war) and at the time, it seemed to be a very good place to be. Among the privileges that we thought we had as citizens, were the responsibilities and privileges of citizenship: We were led to believe that in general every one of us had the opportunity to achieve in accordance with our abilities, no matter who we were.
An important result of that belief was, in those days, a person could be straightforward and honest, but still find a place in society. It was possible to stand up to the powerful and still have a place in society. Today, it seems very much as if standing up to the powerful is merely a way to get nailed.
George Tenet was a "public servant", being paid by our tax dollars. It is the duty of every citizen to act in the best interests of his/her society. It is absolutely necessary for people with the sort of power, influence, etc. that George Tenet has, to be faithful to their commitment to the society that they are (theoretically) serving.
So while your inclination to cut Tenet some slack is very well argued, I am inclined to the anachronistic view that Tenet should have been more forthcoming with his doubts about the arguments being put forward for the invasion of Iraq.
June 14, 2007 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just want to say thanks and bump this thread. This is important stuff, and could be more prominently displayed on TPMC + TPM.
June 15, 2007 2:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
The attorney scandal is enough to act on, but the Wilsons/Libby saga works to this point soon also.
The President can even be sued in Civil Court. Its discovery can empower Fitzgerald further.
Thanks to the Lewinsky precedent this moves forward. Ambassador Wilson has saved words for Bush himself to a good degree from respect for his father. He even gave George political leverage with statements leading to a diplomatic option, one that was discarded, before the war took place.
His statements in "How Saddam Thinks" found in his Oct.13, 2002 OpEd for the San Jose Mercury News, that he lists at his own web page for The Politics of Truth.
He makes statements of caution upon the premise of media narrative at the time, but clues you in to his view of the big picture at the time:
'With us or with the terrorists' was the first smoke signal that the US policy was not being moderated to the extent to insure success in building a coalition necessary to secure the peace in occupation phase of a conflict.
There he does Bush a favor of using the leverage of their efforts to shape opinion, though he is not mentioning mushroom clouds. This taken with the staging positions before the war(troops in aggregate locales, where one strategic WMD would cause maximum damage, and only coming from essentially one direction at Kuwait's staging point) seems to be evidence enough that Wilson understood this to be a bluff determination, one that was supposed to to provide plausible extent to carry out full diplomatic measures under the force threat model.
Deconstruction of his diplomatic approach to this conflict finds a counterpositive assertion of neocon policy in the operative mode employed.
This key passage indicates how well he understood the symbolic use of actions that went beyond their immediate collateral consequence. He understood who he was dealing with and how to take him on.
Well we see that Saddam and Bush had much in common, to the point his nickname in Iraq is "the White Saddam" as so aptly put by people who are most the victims of his policies.
That's how you must deal with Bush. If you don't call him out, or any of the political levers he uses as props, then you are not going to get results. See also Harry Reid's criticism of recent command structure appointments.
Thus we see how to make this work, as Wilson directly states in the next section, titled '“In your face” approach' and its relevance to expanding options without losing grasp of ways to shape the outcome peacefully.
We also recognized that the traditional diplomatic methods had not worked; Ambassador April Glaspie had been severely, albeit unjustly, criticized for not being tough enough in her meeting with Saddam just days before the invasion. What she did at that meeting was follow longstanding instructions from Washington to urge, but not demand, that Iraq’s dispute with Kuwait over border and oil issues be settled diplomatically. She then left for official business in Washington."
Well, that and she had to get out false flag stories of Baby Incubators being placed by UK publicity firm Hill & Knowlton to shape public opinion with the help of Leslie Blitzer's concern tone in full narrative mode...
Wilson still shows a consistent approach to analysis of the person in power. The same thing he did in this instance was done to him when he cited dissent backed with the facts as he could determine before the second Iraq war.
Look at the headhunting done vs. persons like Scot Ritter before the war. Look at the attack on Wilson's wife once he made statements of record against the assertions of Cheney's people who were funneling falsehood to Judith Miller.
Pushback is what it was.
The best way to flip this is to call it out personally, putting yourself on the line, which is exactly what Wilson did at the time in writing about what he did not find in Africa. He's done so before:
Two important factors above relate to the overview. One is that you don't allow photo ops to portray false facts, the other (more historically important) item was that the UK Prime Minister worked closely in concert with PR functions of the USA at this time. Again this hearkens a return to the recollection of baby incubators, Rendon Group, and Hill & Knowlton's publicity stunts.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-39,RNWE:en&q=saddam+baby+incubators
Wilson used the same rhetorical tactic when he was in Iraq on the narrative timeline of that story, that of calling out his opponent in personal terms. He made America's bravest diplomatic stand ever and did so in personal terms.
The Iraqis were furious at my black joke and harangued me publicly. Then they withdrew the diplomatic note—another indication that Saddam was thin-skinned in the face of aggressive opposition."
So, calling out a bully was nothing new to him, and his efforts to derail what Dick Cheney said in back channels was light work in comparison, given the graces of service to duty and his good standing in the world community with which Wilson was familiar.
That's when unjust pushback occurred.
He pushed back against Cheney, and the same was done to his family. That's what separates the political from the personal. They're different spheres unless you are in service on the front lines in some capacity.
The war on truth was taken back home when Plame was outed, it was a personal attack, one made necessary by Cheney's pushbacks against the Intelligence Community. Wilson was no stranger to fights, and his obligation to inform persons of the truth would not be deferred against Cheney and the Office of Vice President.
In his initial efforts to help Bush with the OpEd Wilson highlights how many options James Baker planned in the discussion, and the extent to which their opponent opinions mirrored that of the US in its approach then and now.
Confrontation worked
First paragraph, he shows how calling for respect of other Muslims, and playing to the ethnic diversity of their population, was a way to win diplomatic gains that helped support any military action.
We've since abandoned that to torture and detain those we could have won favor from.
His note of Saddam's attempt to annex Kuwait would be a bit more honest if he listed the previous history behind the forming of the two countries, and mentioned any of the slant drilling Marvin Bush and Marge Tutwiler helped enable of the world's second largest oil field. Iraq had justified reasons to demand of Kuwait compensation. Had we legitimately worked to those ends the first invasion would not have happened.
Note how Wilson determines captives to be of little worth politically, their care becomes a major liability to any aggressor. Why does the contrapositive assertion hold to policy today? Prisoners are at all times a liability and can shape how outsiders view both sides of the conflict.
He notes Baker's estimation that Saddam determined war for political gain against the West. If these underpinnings held true then what is one to think of today, when access to images online make it that much easier to appeal top emotions and appearance? The same motivations drive Bush policy now, and invite blowback reaction.
It's key that regime change was not on the table between Baker and Saddam on condition no WMD were put in use. Such was not actually the case, we did observe the use of such items along portions of the war front, and it could be argued our own troops were determined as guinea pigs in the operations. We gave them the ordinance and were familiar with their logistics and delivery, subsequent later strikes placed the same items in their environment, other items lost shelf life and were irrelevant to the time specific to the second war. In other words, lack of WMD was an actually item in any true discussion of regime change from the outset of our talks with Iraq throughout the history of this crisis.
Wilson notes how Saddam tried to get the region drawn to wider conflict when the war actually occurred. If that was such a risk at the time with a state actor, how much more so would the case be with de-Baathification and a failed state?
It's clear this was diplomatic leverage to garner the working of a true coalition, something that also went ignored. The threat of force was in some ways a bluff to the notion of regional stability as well. This hearkens back to Bush having the same kind of personality as Saddam. Narcissistic rivals at play, both determined to make mitakes under pressure, counterintuitive to their strategic political standing. Thus it was an attraction that happened, sprung of rivals most likely to plot similar visions of empire central to the middle east.
Bush got his Congressional seats and second term back running on the war, but he's eroded all moral authority and long terms standing of both the political party and our nation as the electorate sees this.
The entire levers in action by Wilson in the above listing were that we have to see Saddam as a bully, a shadowboxer of sorts whose bark was not even big as his bite. We had an opportunity to reshape the region politically and failed in choosing conflict.
There are three models to employ in foreign policy at times through history.
1)Cooperative- Same interests and we work the same way to get there.
2)Competitive- Same interests and we work differently to get there.
3)Conflicting- Different objectives for the same interests, negative actions to reaching those goals.
We had a chance to shape the region competitively for certain, cooperatively with allies, and avoid number three. Bush jumped the shark and shat the bed in choosing the third model which regionally cultures more enemies, in addition it weakens your own allies.
Wilson showed a path to take, but Bush did not share the same motivations he claimed in action. The method of experience was entirely discarded and the NIE now show that the same conclusion was reached by the Intelligence Community.
'Build on experience'
Saddam had to play matador in the bull ring of Mid-East strongmen, had we taken his bluff to heart no mass staging would have occured with centrality as a theme. Baker's first talks showed how easy Saddam caved to any WMD use to an extent it could be considered a threat. The Gulf War was a legitmate coalition, and this time our own interests showed companies like Halliburton to be gaming the sanctions system outright anyways. The premise itself was flawed.
But he will have to overcome French and Russian concerns that other harsh demands in the U.S.–British draft resolution leave Saddam little room to save face and avoid war.
One of the strongest arguments for a militarily supported inspection plan is that it doesn’t threaten Saddam with extinction, a threat that could push him to fight back with the very weapons we’re seeking to destroy. If disarmament is the goal, Saddam can be made to understand that only his arsenal is at stake, not his survival."
Never trust Bush, is what that entire plan panned out to prove. The best you can hope for is a legislative body shaping his behavior.
Remember that Wilson simply applied diplomatic pressure in this piece, to other countries with hopes of devlopment as Iraq was reopened, by way of such strong talk, and as a reminder that Bush could get this without going to war.
To finish this Wilson says:
This is the main point to take from such strong talk. In the face of force force multipliers Saddam Hussein was puddy. This was proven when the IAEA was brought back in. Mission Accomplished.
That Cheney took over from there was a certainty, one everyone knew would occur but could perhaps plausibly deny. Perhaps working to donate proceedings of writings about this war to those most hurt(via Red Crescent, some mideast student exhcanges, for example) could work best to rectify the role everyone the diplomatic and intelligence community played in shaping this tragedy alongisde the political leadership.
There's other items worth seeing at Wilson's page, a treasure of items that explain the background of scandal in the Iraq war, via Josh Marshall at TPM, linked on the pages Wilson shares interviews with Josh at...
June 15, 2007 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am 52, so we have a similar range of historical experience.
My impression is that from its very inception, CIA was more or less a criminal organization "fighting for freedom". The justification is that as we have global interests and global enemies, we have to use every necessary tool etc.
Among the "principals", the President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense and National Security Advisor should pitch in to keep our overall policy in some strategic and, hopefully, moral balance. Director of CIA is a guy who should listen to them and reply "consider it done".
Of course, the problem exists that when a disinformation campaign is directed at American people AND Congress, there is no one to stop it. There was a certain tradition of Secretary of State being the voice of sanity among the "principals", so one could have higher expectation about Powell. Chief of Joint Chief of Staffs is supposed to provide brutal truth about the military feasibility or the lack of it. Congress should be keen on catching the hints than emanate from CIA and the military that the executive is insane. So Tenet did provide some footnotes and classified apendices, and Shinseki provided his sobering testimony.
I do not see how we, the populus, can expect more from CIA and the military. The corollary is that as citizens we must be as keen on catching the hints as we wish our Congress to be. However are we reviled for doing so.
June 15, 2007 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pelosi is too busy counting the money from her husbands government contracts to impeach another grafter.
All that has to happen is to bring the impeachment charges and investigate them in a house committee so as to lay the truth out before the American People in a way no media outlet can ignore and any Republican, Republican lite or fellow grafter who refuses to vote for impeachment will be dead in the water come the 2008 elections. The same can be said of Senators who might refuse to vote for conviction. Bush and Cheney are guilty as sin of high crimes, mal and misfeasance as anyone who has researched the mater knows . It's too damned the Democrats we wasted our time electing in 2006 to set right the situation are spinless and too sold out themselves to bring the needed charges. We need to clean the House and Senate of the whole bunch, Democrats and Republicans (with a few exceptions,) in 2008… enough is enough!!!
June 16, 2007 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't understand troll-rating this.
June 17, 2007 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
They apparently like to aid and abet treason, and defend those too cowardly to do the right thing and thus are also aiding and abetting treason for that's exactly what Bush, Cheney and their gang of Neo-Cons have done...treason. If they don't like the strong language, well it's just too damned bad.
June 17, 2007 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS
They are probably also supporters of the duopoly In DC that is tying to pass for a democratic government.
June 17, 2007 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tom, the Troll rating is for this:
If I want to listen to Rush Limbaugh spew made up facts in an effort to demonize democrats, I'll turn on a radio.
I'm not really impressed by someone who starts off their homily with fringe nutcase talking points.
June 19, 2007 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't know from strong language, bucko. Your post is like a little kid piddling on the rug in front of Mommy and Daddy's friends, and proud of the accomplishment.
June 19, 2007 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have as yet to say much that impresses me chum. The veneer that you put on parade and apparently think of as class is pretty damned thin…to the point of pathetic.
June 20, 2007 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well partner I didn't get it from Limbaugh who I despise, and I've likely been a Democrat longer than you've been alive, or at least long enough to know one a Democrat when I encounter one. The comment about the contracts in the family is either true or it is not, and you my friend can like that or not. Politics is not a game where one cheers for the people wearing your team color regardless of their behavior…
The lady is a poor excuse for a speaker let alone Democrat, IMO, and I can back it up with out being personally insulting which is something you ought to try. Personal insults have no bearing on the correctness or lack of it of a statement, or didn't you learn that in high school debating. Other than that I could give a damned less what a crude and rude person thinks. You can also bet I won't troll rate you because I disagree with what you have say. I'd take the trouble to prove you wrong...bet on it.
June 20, 2007 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink