In another post I mentioned the "they did it too" defense. The argument is that since there are Negro rappers, entetainers, comedians, and everyday people who refer to African-Americans in derogatory terms, it's OK for other people to use the term. I mentioned that Richard Pryor had used the term n****r prior to visiting Africa. On his return, he stated that he saw many Black people, but no n****rs. Pryor stopped using the term in his comedy routine.
But, hey, if we are going to excuse behavior becuase of the "they do/did it too" as the wingnuts use "Clinton did it too" then accept Drudge, Malkin, Coulter, Beck, etc as the new journalistic norm and move on.
I, for one, am fed up with the lowest common denominator being used as an excuse for stupidity. It is reduction to the absurd.
Rappers, comedians and entetainers now have equal standards off discourse as politicians, journalists, and talk show hosts. That is the premise of several guests on Imus. Since "they" refer to Black women as female dogs and garden implements, you can understand how Imus could slip up. It's not really Imus' responsibility. Subconsciously, Imus is compelled to say those words. Snoop is Imus'daddy.
Having standards is hard work, let's just go with the lowest common denominator. The marketplace will correct the situation.
Oh. I see POTUS GW Bush on TV. That marketing worked out well.

Put me down in agreement here.  One also needs to distinguish between what members of a minority say about themselves to themselves and what others say about them.  My cousins and I tell Swede jokes:  we're all Swede, and we can't insult each other without insulting ourselves. 

Gay men (yup, I'm one of them, too), may banter among themselves using terms like "Mary" or "Queen" or what Ann Coulter called John Edwards.  But that does not deprive us of the right to resent and resent deeply occasions when a member of the heterosexual community abuses us with the same terms.  We know their intention, not only from the words, but from the contexts, from the body language, and from the facial expressions.  None of those express friendship, respect, or even toleration. 

aMike

There are things in the know that gives you rights to what you want to say there are things just out there giving you the only signs of life there for you. Is there any more to highlight.

Remember the joke about 100,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? Something about "A good start" being the punchline?

That is what comes to mind here - a good start. Firing was most definitely in order because he doesn't warrent being on the air in the first place. The suits are too damn afraid to pull the plug is all. But why stop here with the inane drivel that is floating off into space to be observed by aliens light years away?

Do we really want to offend other brave new worlds with Rush's impressions of tragically ill celebrities? Or of visages of the Ann-apple? Get real.

This stuff is going out into space, forever. Go see the movie Contact, believe what you will, but this may yet be a reality. And yeah I know it's cable but some of it gets bounced to satellite.

The stuff of the airwaves has gone way past the definition of entertainment. Why anyone would watch this joke in the first place is beyond me. That anyone would watch these guys and take them seriously is the bigger joke.

rmdoo: "Rappers, comedians and entetainers now have equal standards off discourse as politicians, journalists, and talk show hosts." That's it for me more than whether it's in-group. First, we may still criticize certain rappers as cultural figures for producing a lousy culture. Second, changes in language within a community may over time or even quickly alter cultural norms for other as well. 

Thus, the problem's not so much that rappers call others or themselves niggers. We can get angry at them or we can happily wait for it to alter language more generally. But a least they're not setting the political debate on mainstream TV. On the other hand, too bad Bush isn't a better comedian, except inadvertantly.  

John 

http://www.haberarts.com/

Talk radio is full of juvenile hosts like Imus because people want to hear that. Radio, like other media, exists to make money for the owners of the stations and networks. I am always amazed that TV is not dominated by hard core porn, since that also is something that sells very well with the public. If we are going to use profitability as our sole criteria for what gets on broadcasts, why shouldn't porn be featured every night? You can be sure that making a porn movie costs a great deal less even than the idiotic game shows or reality shows now dominating TV.

Hoppy in Sacramento

Intelligent people don't listen to Imus, O'Reily, Limbaugh, et.cet.

You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

Are we really considering Drudge, Malkin... journalists? They are entertainment talking heads.

I think we all "subconsciously" want to say those things. I don't know if subconsciously is the right concept, but there are often times when I want to scream out a tirade of "F" words - because LCD words feel good. They are what they are. Base words that emotionally connect to base feelings.

I don't say those words (often). So why do these entertainers? It sells. And we are to blame. Let's just keep shaming them into trying to keep the level of discourse steps above those LCDs.

And you've hit the nail on the head with "they do it too." We should also know that a bad word and vindictive or hateful sentiment in our posts are just as inexcusable. Censorship, for that's what it is, should start AND end at home. If Imus won't censor himself, we want his Mom and Dad figure (his producers) to do it.

But there are really intelligent people who listen to the like. The like are intelligent themselves.

Let's not confuse intelligence with insensitivity. A jerk is just a jerk - smart or dumb.

Now, Imus is/was wrong for saying stuff that he thinks! He just thought out loud! The voices were louder and his mouth followed!

What is so crazy about this word bashing, is its ok for certain forms of people can say such terms with out going to rehab! Not that Imus is right or wrong...All you have to do, is listen to any rappers lyrics and its just ok to bash people regardless of who they may be!

Hippocrates's are those who write lyrics in songs that degrade people...and record labels sell and radio stations play...but no one is screaming to shut down the record label or radio stations that play them!!! If you really want to have all humans as equals, don't profit on word bashing which most don't because you don't purchase the albums or you change the radio station...So, don't watch Imus or is it just to hard to do!?

Imus is and was wrong! Stupidity is his outcome! Sham on him!

So I end up on the page with Al Sharpton (this time). There's no excuse for racist trash-talk. None. End story.

******************************************

Absolutely agree. I've always thought Imus an idiot and never understood his appeal.
******************************************

Hey, y'all, this is how elites work. "Good men" get passes. "Good men" have their crudity overlooked because they give to charity. "Good men" benefit from "solidarity forever," in Tom Oliphant's words, disgracing the name of American unionism. So where's his solidarity with Gwen Ifill?
******************************************

Okay - so where do you come down on Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" remarks?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/frenzy/jackson.htm

Or Robert Byrd and "white niggers"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FcrUu-_Vg

Do they get passes?

In his career, Imus seems to have gone from ersatz counter-culture phony to querulous old man in a perpetual cage match with reality. Reality finally won.

Not a big victory, but better than nothing. Suspension is appropriate but seems insufficient. As the spokesperson for the Rutgers team correctly remarked this morning in a news conference broadcast by CNN, "It's all about the money."

Corporate media, like the rest of corporate America, has long been liberated by statute from considerations of morality, justice, standards, and truth (to name but a few of their exemptions) so they may focus exclusively on the gathering of profits, no quarter given. Appropriately, the faces they present to us are those of Bernard McGurk, Don Imus, and others who share their mentality.

If Imus had a shred of decency or anything vaguely resembling a conscience, he'd clamp his moldy cowboy hat on his head and ride into the Grand Canyon. Like that'll ever happen.

I agree to shame Imus. But what is wrong from shaming the show's producers? They are benefiting from it as well. Shame on them as well.

We should not just turn the channel and ignore him. If someone puts something out in the public arena for entertainment or debate, then it is the right and duty for the whole public to address it.

There are plenty of people trying to penalize the record labels and radio stations - namely, the FCC.

Here's my favorite fact about Glen Beck. Her converted to Mormonism and claims to be a "committed Christian." And now he spends every right telling us how Islam is evil, evil, evil.

So what do you have to say about Muslims or gays to get kicked off television?

I have made my feelings on Imus very clear.  There is no excuse for what he said, it was reprehensible and there is a good case being made to terminate his presence from the public airwaves.

But I have seen some comments on this, and Rosenberg's, thread that seem to be moving this discourse towards censoring of any speech that someone finds arbitrarily offensive.  If that happens, even partially because of what Imus said, that will be an American Tragedy...censorship is not the answer to anything except losing our freedom.

If you don't like Rap music, porn, or whatever it is don't watch it or listen to it.  Controlling the public airwaves is to ensure decency is one thing...but censorship in all other cases just because of not liking what is said, is un-American!!!

Well said.

I think it is most important to have everyone own what they say and think. They have to be ready to defend their views to the public; if not, don't offer it to the public.

. . . a group of young women who play amateur basketball. None of those young women signed on to being a public figure - they are amateurs, who play basketball for their college.

Or are these "student-atheletes" really professionals-in-everything-but-name who are engaged in a big-time, big money entertainment industry?

I know the KKK is racist.

I know White Power groups are racist.

I know there are unaligned people who commit criminal acts on black people simply because they're black. I know they're racists.

Is Imus a racist?

If so, is he a racist because he made a racist comment,

or is he a racist because he's committed racist acts?

Or both.

Can anyone here look inside themselves and then say, "I don't have an ounce of racism inside me."

See a tongue-in-cheek visual of Imus and his newfound buddy, Michael Richards, hanging out and counting sheep...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

A lot of Americans are not well educated when it comes to critical thinking skills so unfortunately "stupid" sells well in some quarters.

There is stupid and then there is racist. Imus is not selling stupid he is selling racism. Racist stupidity.

Jesse Jackson raises a point: how come there are no black hosts on MSNBC? Someone who could maybe dish out to Imus what he likes to dish out to others?

?

Al Sharpton made that point yesterday on Hardball and when reminded that African American Alison Stewart hosts a noon show M-F stated his cirteria as to how he defiines "host". No one brought up the fact that MSNBC gave Alan Keyes a program which did fit Sharpton's definition and proved to be a dismal failure.

I was referring to their participation in the big-time entertainment venue known as the NCAAW final four and not to their future employment prospects.

And Imus didn't dis Candace Parker, now, did he.

As less dumbed down, I suspect that the AFLAC commercial, where the duck goes berserk on hearing that the insured has ordered Chinese food delivered, including Peking Duck, was written by a collaboration of Franz Kafka and Mel Brooks.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Well, I never thought I'd see the day when angry lefties like Todd Gitlin and MJ Rosenberg would denounce the right to free speech.

And people think Bush is a fascist...

My question is simple: If Don Imus, a 67 year old politico who has been rabble-rousing on the radio for decades, makes a stupid and potentially offensive comment, why are people so offended?

If anyone is to blame in this whole mess it is CBS. A proper analogy would be having a dog that you deliberately do not potty-train.

If you allow the dog the freedom to do its business anywhere in the house at anytime, who's fault is it when the dog, after many years, finally soils your favorite expensive rug in the family room?

Is it the dogs fault, or is it YOUR fault?

So the question should be asked of CBS. This is the network that failed to prevent the Janet Jackson fiasco at the Super Bowl a couple years ago that has since wreaked havoc on the First Amendment with the litany of FCC regulations that has since been imposed.

And even if Imus were fired, he could just do as Howard Stern did and make the jump to unregulated satellite radio (without the lucrative contract, of course).

Blaming Don Imus is foolhardy if you are serious about correcting these types of racial profiling. Blame the institutions and people who allow Imus to do his duty anywhere in the house at anytime.

My Scandinavian friends tell me I have an uncanny ability to address my few words of Svensk to the Danes, and my equally paltry Dansk vocabulary to the Swedes.

It utterly mystifies me that around native speakers, the language I pick up fastest is Japanese.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

rmrdooo.

Do you consider it "Rovian" to discuss a tv lineup? I just pointed out a fact that Gregory brought up and added that Alan Keyes was given a shot as well; in Tucker Carlson's current time slot if I remember correctly. That was back in the days of MSNBC's laughably lame attempt to emulate FOX. They also had Rita Cosby in prime time for awhile.....

Tavis Smiley is seen by the MSM and other elites just before Charlie Rose on my PBS station and he would be a great asset to MSNBC's lineup although I doubt he would be interested as he gets to control his show on PBS more than he would if he were part of GE's stable. Who knows?

As to your list, it's short Imus' favorite politician, Harold Ford, plus many other politicians, news anchors, authors and musicians too numerous to mention as the roll call would go on and on and on and......yup, pretty much all white males. Just like every other tv talk show guest line-up on cable.

Where is Harold Ford?

I don't think it was appropriate, it was a mean spirited joke, and it's already had a negative impact on his career.

However, I don't think his comment was racist. It was cultural. That's an important distinction.

He was commenting on voluntary fashion choices they made, including "tattoos" and "nappy hair" i.e. hair which isn't closely cropped, braided, or otherwise made more fashion conservative. He said he thought it made them look "rough" which is just his opinion.

That's not racist.

A person of any "race" with frizzy hair and tattoos is likely to get shit for it from some part of the more fashion conservative public. Black, white, asian, hispanic, or other.

Imus wears plaid shirts and floppy cowboy hats, which imo look ridiculous, make me think of "yee haw" hillbillies and such.

But that's not racist, it's cultural, it's fashion and culture through a lens of the media.

For example, some people don't like my long hair and think it looks funky. Other people like it. But it's not racism.

I think the whole issue is first of all a huge waste of time and distraction.

He was just saying his fashion opinion without thinking. Translated:

Tattoos and frizzy hair, in his opinion, look "rough" and particularly a kind of "rough" he associates with MTV commercial rap culture. When you think of white, tattoos, and frizzy hair... Courtney Love and commercial MTV rock culture and could just as easily come to mind.

People said the same thing about Dennis Rodman, except he was more punk, and have said similar things about a number of other athletes who have a lot of tattoos and nonconservative hair. People say the same things about various people of all colors in the media.

That's not racism.

Plenty of more conservative black/brown people feel the same way about the tattoos, piercings, etc as do white conservative people. I don't have a problem with anyone's fashion opinion and think people need to grow thicker skins and learn to differentiate between fashion and race.

I'm mixed race, have long hair, no tattoos, a few rings, no face/body piercings, wear work boots, and work with computers. I get the 3 Bears range of comments on my looks too. But it's not racism.

my Swedish relatives also say that Swedes make fun of Norwegians.

Wish I had known some good Norwegian jokes when my Norwegian friend with an Irish wife liked to talk about the Vikings pillaging and raping in Ireland.

My Finnish grandfather was born on the border of Sweden and looked one of those people. It was life-threatening to suggest he was a Swede because Swedes tend to be rather large and Finns have no sense of humor.

What my aunt and uncle told me though was that their mother - my grandmother - was not a Saami (Laplander). I had never asked. Both grandparents came from Lapland. When I saw a picture many years later, it was obvious my grandmother - who died when my mother was born - was a Saami because of her Asian features.

Odd thing about that. My mother looked like a classic blonde Finnish beauty when she was young. My aunt looked like Genghis Khan, only tougher.

Praise the Lord, I am Irish and don't need to worry about all that race mixing.

Best, Terry

and btw, he didn't say "pickaninnies" or anything close. Nobody in today's culture is fashion inspired by "pickaninnies" but millions of young people, around the world, are inspired fashion-wise by "hos" and "pimps" and "players" on TV, not to mention "grungy" junkie rockers, deliberately "shocking" looking people like Marlyn Manson, and a whole lot of others.

The Academy Award honored "hard out here for a pimp" last year, in a movie about "rough" looking "hos and pimps."

What he said was insensitive, because he crossed racial lines in cultural criticism, but it's a popular culture reference from a now mainstream and highly commercialized fashion: MTV style commercial rap, which is heavy on bling, tattoos, slang, hos, etc.

If it's any consolation, I occasionally confer with a colleague who is establishing Internet connectivity for nomading Lapp reindeer herders. I was rather disappointed when she assured me that she was not metallizing the antlers and using them for the challenging problem of high-latitude satellite antennas.

I wonder if your aunt knew mine? Shirley was rather like Archie Bunker, but with a coarser mustache and less empathy.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Where is Harold Ford?

--------
Perhaps Ford will show up later in the week.

Clarence Page a Black Chicago columnist attempted to have Imus stop using derogatory racial terms years ago. Page's reward, he was never asked back. Gwen Ifill felt uncomfortable with the show format especially after hearing about a joke Imus told about her. Neither Page or Ifill are obligated to appear on Imus if they feel uncomfortable.
It is interesting that some national media elites did feel comfortable with the show's format. Some are supporting Imus during the controversy.
What is striking to me is that Harold Ford stands out as an isolated instance of support for a Black candidate. Alan Keyes is an isolated instance of a prime time MSNBC news show. When MC Rove's dance partner, David Gregory, brought up the absence of talk show hosts, most cable news consumers would hone in on the prime time hours. Gregory knew exactly what Sharpton was implying.
There is a large pool of untapped ethnic news media talent. The NFL had to be pressured into having African-American and Hispanic coaches included in the mix when head coaching jobs opened up. Perhaps similar pressure needs to be brought to bear on MSM news shows.
The Rovian characterization of the TV lineup came from my consideration that Imus 'support of Harold Ford did not negate the Page and Ifill episodes. Wingnut Alan Keys' failed prime time TV show did not mean that there was equal access to a hosting jobs. It seemed diversionary, avoiding the true issue.
Imus will be back in time for "Sweeps". Life will go on. The prime time news lineup with it's lack of ethnic diversity will continue.

[M]illions of young people, around the world, are inspired fashion-wise by "hos" and "pimps" and "players" on TV...

The issue that I saw, especially after hearing some interviews with these basketball players, is that they don't consider themselve "hos."  Maybe they have made some "fashion choices" that are inspired by that MTV culture, but that doesn't mean that that's an accurate identification.  Does that make sense?

Also, as a by the by, I certainly don't equate "nappy" with "frizzy."  The former is only applied to black people with stereotypically black hair.  Nobody would say that Courtney Love had nappy hair. 

I wonder if your aunt knew mine? Shirley was rather like Archie Bunker, but with a coarser mustache and less empathy.

Sounds like they had a lot in common.

LOL!

Best, Terry

they don't consider themselve "hos." ... that doesn't mean that that's an accurate identification

Well of course not! (duh!) :^)

They're offended they were called names, as they have a right to be. We all agree on that. But, there weren't the victims of racism as they claim.

I'm mixed, have long hair and wear work boots even though I work on computers. Suit and tie types tend to think I look like a "hippy" or "artsy" or just "funky" or whatever. we agree to disagree. But imagine how much credibility I'd lose if I always claimed it was racism to dislike my fashion choices.

Real racism is an important problem that needs to be addressed in substantive ways.

I'm concerned the media is just whipping people into a frenzy, as usual, to accomplish nothing in the long term, while continuing to sell soap, and white guys in suits and ties continue running the world.

Diluting the term "racism" to include Politically Correct fashion analysis only weakens the fight against real racism by failing to separate substantive issues from media churn.

I'm concerned this circular firing squad on the left and with Imus (who is fairly moderate and the least bad by radio standards) is only going to weaken the fight against real racism in the long term. Crying wolf tends to desensitize people.

There are radio hosts who preach hate every day.

They are serious problems that need to be addressed. Go after them with the same blood lust as people are going after Imus! I'm all for that.

But this rush to get Imus for a politically incorrect comment he's actually apologized for, well it just seems too easy, too empty, and kind of lame really. I'll bet Limbaugh and Savage and such are really enjoying this.

It is Constitution protected free speech to make demeaning racist jokes in America, but just don't criticize assault weapons or, Good Soul or not, your career will be over, reference Jim Zumbo:

Wash Post

Zumbo's fame, however, has turned to black-bordered infamy within America's gun culture -- and his multimedia success has come undone. It all happened in the past week, after he publicly criticized the use of military-style assault rifles by hunters, especially those gunning for prairie dogs.Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity," Zumbo wrote in his blog on the Outdoor Life Web site. .... . . I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles."

The reaction -- from tens of thousands of owners of assault rifles across the country, from media and manufacturers rooted in the gun business, and from the National Rifle Association -- has been swift, severe and unforgiving. Despite a profuse public apology and a vow to go hunting soon with an assault weapon, Zumbo's career appears to be over.

His top-rated weekly TV program on the Outdoor Channel, his longtime career with Outdoor Life magazine and his corporate ties to the biggest names in gunmaking, including Remington Arms Co., have been terminated or are on the ropes.

I never thought I would see the day when all American good God-fearin' prairie dog shootin' assault weapons owners would deny a fellow hunter the Right to Free Speech! And they call Hillary a fascist!

Corvid

Are you suggesting that corporate America should have protected us from Bush, the way everyone seems to be calling for corporate America to pull the plug on Imus? Imus' remarks shouldn't be excused--on any grounds. But neither should we be encouraging the corporate thought police to act. Imus may have an undiminished audience after this. If so, that's too bad. But I'd rather let them decide than our corporate masters.

Koz

The argument you are attempting to make is just incredibly flawed. The term 'nappy' is not about fashion nor is the term 'ho' about fashion.

Both are derogatory terms one is racist and the other is misogynistic. Combined they perpetuate the sterotype racist notion that black females not only are to be reviled for the tightly coiled natural state of their hair texture but also they are so unfeminine that they can only ever hope to appeal to men as a commodity to be purchased i.e. as  Whores

It is to brandish them as too ugly to be desirable or valued.

None of this is about fashion, nor is your statement about your long  hair about fashion. If you wanted to make an analogous remark about your hair you would describe the texture of the hair strands, not remark on it's length.

Racism is about the meaning that society attaches to the color of a persons' skin, culture, intelligence, physical attributes, skills, etc. In the case of blacks all are negative racist stereotypes.

Which is perhaps why you more than likely refer to yourself as mixed race as opposed to black  By doing so you hope to avoid ever having any of those racist remarks and negative stereotypes aimed at you or having to acknowledge that you do in fact belong to the very group that has had to endure tremendous societal scorn and stigmatism to the point of you not ever wanting to have to identify with that part of your 'mixed race'.

The term mixed race is what is too easy, too empty and really lame.