rogue occupation = rogue operation?
heirs = theirs?

HAMAS could meet all of the demands of isreal and it's vassal state but it would be to no avail. Even if they agreed to isreal's racist policies inside the borders and isreal's apartheid policies outside. isreal will simply move the bar. They nor the vassal state is interested in a viable Palestine.

Well, THAT post was certainly not helpful one bit. Oy...

MJ,

But none of us will ever accept the idea that resisting occupation means fighting against Israel's presence INSIDE ISRAEL. If that is the direction events are moving, progressive Jews and others are going to do some serious re-thinking.

I wish I could believe this, but experience and evidence suggest that self-styled progressives already have their collective mind made up, and no serious re-thinking of orthodox groupthink regarding Israeli apartheid, Jewish imperialism and Zionist racism is bound to occur in any event.  Only a week ago, Hamas issued the following statement:

We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine.

With all due respect, as unbelievably miserable and stupid as it is to shoot an electrician who's doing his job inside Israel -- this is one guy. A sniper took a shot at him. Like you say, probably a rogue operation.

Things like this cannot be allowed to become decisive in assessing one's political attitude towards the other side. One lesson Israel must have learned from the colossal international disaster of its response to the Palestinian riots that set off the second intifada should be that, yes, this incident is completely unjustifiable, but negotiations and the path to peace are far, far too important to be set aside because of the stupid provocations of scheming radicals and dumb hotheads.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

Emmet Till was just one man.

Wow, that's weirder than any response I could have imagined.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

Yes, I could see how it would be weird to you, Brooks. Your posts have a common theme and that is that one, two, three lives here and there, are not all that significant and if a thousand or so get in the way of Brooks master plan, well, its unfortunate, but hey, its Brook's plan.

The sanctity of human life is not weird. Try to imagine it.

MJ says:

But none of us will ever accept the idea that resisting occupation means fighting against Israel's presence INSIDE ISRAEL.

As I read your column I was struck by another analogy;

Imagine an Iraqi Sunni or Shiite insurgent coming to Philadelphia, Pa and murdering an electrician, would that be "resisting occupation.?

Would they not be resisting occupation by occupying Philadelphia?

How does Hamas' definition of "resisting occupation" compare to the same act as practiced by the European countries in WWll, such as France, Norway, Holland, etc.

Reading many of these columns I see a number of analogous
situations between the Israel/Palestinian situation and the U S situation in IRAQ.

But remember, I'm a non Jew so I probably see things from a diferent perspective.

A "chease fire"? Is that when the French think its a truce, but their opponent thinks its a surrender?

b,hamas has NEVER abided by the so-called "ceasefire". They have been firing rockets at Israel all along.

Actually, I think that Israel itself has pretty much killed the 'two state solution.'

Near as I can tell.

Except for the spelling correction on heirs which had me baffled. Otherwise I have no idea what the poster is talking about other than a vague sense that the poster is nasty and misinformed.

global citizen

Are you implying it's ok to murder Jews who live in Judea and Samaria?

If they're armed, and have stolen your land? Hm. Debatable. It'd sure be legal in Texas; they're trespassing.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

Hey Paul Harvey, where's the rest of the story?

First of all, the Hamas government didn't claim responsibility for the shooting, the Hamas MILITARY wing claimed responsiblity for the shooting.

Secondly, a spokesperson for the Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, called for an end to violence. "Our position is still the same. We are calling for mutual calm, and desire continuous calm," said the spokesperson. The new Palestinian information minister said the Palestinian goal was "a complete cease fire." He also said that they understand that "it is the duty of the government to release the people from the siege they are suffering.

The coalition government calls for expanding the truce with Israel and authorizes President Abbas to conduct peace talks. Now obviously, there are cracks appearing between the Hamas government and the Hamas Military Wing and instead of being smart and exploiting that, what does Olmert do? He says that peace talks are impossible, he refuses to deal with the Hamas government and insists that they will not deal with them until Hamas recognizes Israel.

For the love of God, M.J., RESEARCH before you post - you are escalating the situation with this kind of emotional over the top rhetoric. Will many Jews reconsider a peace solution? Yes, if you continue to add to the problem with half-assed reports that don't give people the information to make an informed decision.

Why doesn't Israel just grant every Palestinian the right of return, and then to implement the immigration process, hire the guys in the Histadrut pensions office? If 50 Palestinians managed to work their way through the resulting bureaucracy I'd be surprised.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

While I agree that the cause of peace, and the continued viability of a two-state solution, requires that both sides should do whatever they can to limit violence in the other's territory, I would like to point out that the international law of resistance to occupation does not limit the exercise of right of resistance to actions taken inside the occupied territory itself. For example, it was firmly established Nuremberg that French resistance fighters operating inside Germany were engaged in legitimate acts of resistance.

On March 20, 2007 - 11:19am TJKING said:

Emmet Till was just one man.

Excellent rejoinder.

TJ follows a pattern; when he takes off his partisan attack tin foil hat he can actually post some pretty good stuff.

He's like Bob Novak who I see as a terrific political analyst, but old Bob can also be one of the worst partisan attack dogs.

Maybe they're bi-polar?

I must say, speaking as a person of French descent, I'm pretty fucking offended by your racism.

I don't recall calling your mother a whore.

I'll ask you politely to lay off this shit.

I think one of the things BOTH sides have failed to recognize is that the sooner a peace asgreement is signed, the sooner the pain and agony each experiences will cease. It's almost as if the Israelis and Palestinians are masochrists, otherwise I cannot fathom why they want to continue this low grade war.

The parametes of a settlement are fairly well known.There are some tough issues yet to be settled on Jerusalem and the refugees but they sure are not going to resolved by this tit for tat violence and screaming at each other. It really reminds me of children.

Make no mistake, shooting events will continue to occur while negotiations are going on. However, some combination of UN and Arab League involvement in the Palestinian state will cause the violence to slowly abate.

Do you believe Judea and Samaria are part of Israel?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Squinting my eye and trying to see the conflict in its broadest sense, the biggest obstacle to resolving the conflict is that both sides will finally have to settle for less than they truly hope.

Psychologically, they will have to accept some painful truths. At this point, I don't think that giving up the territories per se will be that hard for MOST Israelis. But a permanent two-state solution will require them to "own" the injustices, at least some of them, the creation of the state of Israel has visited upon the Palestinians.

That is because the creation of a Palestinian state will be predicated on the rights of the Palestinians based on their being the original inhabitants of much, though not all, of the land.

Moreover, should hostilities permanently subside, there will be an inevitable mingling of the populations. Israelis will get to know Palestinians as ordinary people and they will come to know their story and come to have sympathy for it. Palestinians will cross the border to marry and live with Israeli Palestinians. Secular Jews and secular Palestinians will marry and intermingle.

So, hardened views about "the other" will soften and Israelis will start to feel Palestinian pain...and they know it at some level.

This is also true for Palestinians who will have to start admitting the justice of the Zionist dream. And their view of Israeli's as "the other" will also crumble...and this will be painful for them...and they know it.

Also, and this is a big one, Palestinians will have to give up the dream of ever re-occupying Israel proper. Haifa will never again be theirs; nor will it be proper, moral, or just to pine for it or struggle for it. They will have to give it up, definitively, once and for all. They will have to admit that Israel is here to say and that that is a good thing. This will be painful for them...and they know it.

Similarly Arabs/Muslim will have to give up the idea that all of historical Palestinian is Arab/Muslim land and Israel is a "foreign object" causing all the irritation. They will have to focus on their own problems and won't have the Zionists to blame everything on. This will be painful for them...and they know it.

The American Jewish establishment will have to get used to the idea that Israel is no longer in any danger. This may or may not be painful for them, but it will take some getting used to not having this rallying cry to keep their minions motivated.

Or you could just apologize for the cheap shot and move on...

Rosenberg you have no shame, do you.
Pure Zionist propaganda.
Every violent Israeli act can be seperated from the whole as somehow necessary.
Even an isolated murder by a lone man must represent the deepest desires of every Arab.
Yeah, you're a lot of help, with those snide allegations about "progressive Jews"

And BTW, so you do admit that Zionism is an ideology which should have stayed firmly in the 19th century.

Moreover, BOTH sides LOVE the SAME thing--that land.
They know it incredibly well. They prize it above all. They've fought for it and spilled lots of blood for it. That's an incredible bond when you think about it. And I think that bond will assert itself sooner than you think.

I had thought Mr. Rosenberg to be a pie-in-the-sky idealist who was willing to risk every Jew in Israel for some dream of peace. I was surprised--and gratified--to find that he has a red line--no attacks on Jews inside the 1967 borders. It is interesting to note that Hamas claimed credit for the attack. If they had opposed it, or wanted to show some sign of moderation--if only for PR purposes--it would have been easy for Hamas to do so. The comment by JohnW1141 was truly scary: "Imagine an Iraqi Sunni or Shiite insurgent coming to Philadelphia, Pa and murdering an electrician, would that be "resisting occupation.? Would they not be resisting occupation by occupying Philadelphia?" My response is that, if he is analogizing Hamas to the combatants in Iraq, then why should any sane Israeli believe that Hamas, if it had a viable state in Gaza and in the West Bank, would stop violence at Israel's border? BevD wrote: "First of all, the Hamas government didn't claim responsibility for the shooting, the Hamas MILITARY wing claimed responsiblity for the shooting.Secondly, a spokesperson for the Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, called for an end to violence. "Our position is still the same. We are calling for mutual calm, and desire continuous calm," said the spokesperson." If that were so, why not denounce the shooting and arrest the perpetrator? The excuse offered by BevD sounds like: "Problems with the firings? Must be Alberto Gonzalez--not us innocent bystanders in the White House!" And as for petermschwartz52, his words:"This is also true for Palestinians who will have to start admitting the justice of the Zionist dream. And their view of Israeli's as "the other" will also crumble...and this will be painful for them...and they know it.
Also, and this is a big one, Palestinians will have to give up the dream of ever re-occupying Israel proper. Haifa will never again be theirs; nor will it be proper, moral, or just to pine for it or struggle for it. They will have to give it up, definitively, once and for all. They will have to admit that Israel is here to say and that that is a good thing. This will be painful for them...and they know it.Similarly Arabs/Muslim will have to give up the idea that all of historical Palestinian is Arab/Muslim land and Israel is a "foreign object" causing all the irritation. They will have to focus on their own problems and won't have the Zionists to blame everything on. This will be painful for them...and they know it." re interesting. However, has any Arab political military leaders ever said such things in Arabic to his or her own people? When that happens, and when Hamas arrests miscreants in its own midst, there may be a chance for peace.

I've noticed a lot of comments to the effect of "Israel hasn't declared its borders, so why should it expect people to respect them." 

I find this a curious line of reasoning given the fact that most "peace" activists consider Israel's 1967 borders absolute.  As in, Israel must absolutely vacate every last square inch of land outside the Green Line.

In fact, the only borders that are not permanently defined are the ones between Israel and the West Bank and between Israel and Syria. The borders with Gaza, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon are not in dispute, except by those Palestinians who don't recognize any of Israel.

I think it’s about time people who like to consider themselves liberal, progressive, left-wing, enlightened, etc., etc. are finally willing to stand up and say that the Jewish people of Israel have a right to build a nation with a distinctly Jewish identity in the land that they and their ancestors have always seen as their homeland, within the borders that were in place immediately before the 1967 War.

If, in order to participate in this or any similar discussion of the merits of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, one must deny them even that much, then there really is nothing to talk about.

Some participants in this and similar discussions seem clearly nauseated by the mere existence of the State of Israel as a sovereign, independent nation, whose people, like all other sovereign peoples, have a right to determine their own destiny. To them I would ask: what other nation in the whole world has such an effect on you? And if what you call the “illegal Zionist entity” is eradicated so that the Palestinians can “reclaim” all of their “lost land,” what do you propose be done with the Jewish population of Israel? Do you seriously contend they should return to Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Ethiopia, etc., etc., and let all bygones be bygones? And, if so, why?

I know from the outset

that as soon as I post this I'll stand accused of pie in the sky Utopianism, but I'm going to post it anyhow, just because it is the noblest expression of humane behavior I've ever encountered.  It is just about contemporary with the partition of Palestine, and it is my profound wish that sometime we look to honor it.

From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 

• Article 1.
• All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
• Article 2.
• Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
• Article 3.
• Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

How would this dispute resolve itself if all parties acted as if they believed these principles, and I'm not referring to just the first three articles?  One nameless electrician wouldn't have to serve a symbol what happens when our baser instincts are catered to. 

aMike

Yes, absolutely correct - unless they were electricians at a tank factory, I suppose.

"How do we get the war to end?"

Well I think the first step is convincing the media and more importantly our political leaders that someone saying "Israel does bad stuff!" is not cause for the vapors.

Allowing legitimate criticism of Israel without accompanying anti-semitic hysterics in our discourse is the first step in actually creating a free and open in debate in this country about how to stop the fighting, something that will be more productive than the twisted Foxman'd or Peretz'd discourse we have now.

I believe the official tally for 2006 cited by someone here in the past day or two was: 660 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence, less than 30 Israelis killed by Palestinian violence. A 20-to-1 ratio.

Hamas has defined itself as the most right wing Palestinian political organization and will not let any radical group form to its right, I suppose, as a political strategy. And, unfortunately, the Israeli governments has embraced murder as an overt and shameless practice or policy. There is also the tacit/"inofficial" occupation policy of long standing, occasionally mentioned in Israeli publications, of keeping Palestinian casualties tenfold higher than Israeli ones.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But the immoralism has run its roots down to the bedrock, the sociopolitical disease created by the occupation is worse than anyone wishes to imagine. I/P is two scorpions in a bottle, both deeply poisoned with each others' and their own venom.

Weekly Report: On Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory 08 - 14 March 2007"

A Palestinian boy was killed by IOF when he attempted to infiltrate into Israel to search for a job.
The Israeli police beat a Palestinian to death in occupied East Jerusalem.
15 Palestinian civilians, including 3 children, and an Israeli solidarity activist were wounded by IOF gunfire.
12 of these civilians were wounded in Bal’ein village, west of Ramallah.
IOF conducted 40 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
IOF arrested 63 Palestinians, including 7 children.
IOF raided offices of Afaq Television and used staff members as human shields.
IOF stormed an elementary school in Ethna village, west of Hebron, and beat a number of school children.
IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT.
IOF have operated Erez crossing as an international crossing point.
IOF positioned at various checkpoints in the West Bank arrested 12 Palestinian civilians, including 3 children and a girl.
A Palestinian civilian died at Rafah International Crossing Point due to rushing and congestion.
The Gaza Strip has suffered from shortages in fuels and basic goods.
IOF have continued settlement activities in the West Bank.
Two houses were demolished by IOF in Sour Baher village, southwest of Jerusalem.
IOF confiscated 17 donums[1] of agricultural land in Qalqilya.
Israeli settlers launched more attacks on Palestinian civilians and property.

Bev, What a crack up. The pro palestinian thread on TPM is overflowing with people that go on and on about conniving, money grubing, dual loyalty Israelis in the US,...and then they claim to not be Jew hating anti-semites. I am laughimg out loud over here.

I really don't care what you say. I despise the French government. I loathe them now and I condemn them for their behavior in the 60s and the 50s. I have nothing but contempt for their government's behavior in the 70s and 80s. But I have special contempt for their governments behavior in the 30s as well as the Vichy in the 40s. I have good reason to have contempt for French government.

My question to you, What is it in the past few years that causes the left to always run to the French model of government as something to look up to. Why so quick to jump on their sinking ship, Bev. That government is screwed up, and if you don't want to defend your rush to embrace it, then you move on. Our government is much better than theirs, in fact it is the best, I won't apologize for that.

It's hard to know how to interpret these byzantine manuvers, but my take is that it's a repeat of a Shalit style provocation by militant extremists within Hamas' military wing who are disgruntled by the new unity government. I've also heard theories (I think in Haaretz yesterday) that Hamas former ministers like Mahmoud al Zahar who were left out of the new unity cabinet had their families create this disturbance to make known their disaffection w. being shut out in the cold.

I think this is a distraction rather than a new policy for Hamas. Though distractions have an awful way of turning into the big show & taking over when it comes to developments in the Israeli Palestine arena.

Richard Silverstein
Tikun Olam>

The sanctity of human life is not weird. Try to imagine it.

Richard Silverstein
Tikun Olam>

Help me out here.

Richard Silverstein
Tikun Olam>

There is no split between the Hamas military wing and its "political" wing.

If you believe there's no diff. then you don't know s(&$ from shinola about Hamas. Even a little reading of the Haaretz website over time would prove to you the absolute error of yr ways.

Richard Silverstein
Tikun Olam>

So Mr.Silverstein would it make you more happy if Hamas managed to kill more Israeli Jews, say like a couple of thousand?

Would you prefer most be women and children or a nice mix?

That said, I'm sure many liberals here would rejoice at the mass slaughter of Israeli Jews and given the sheer level of hatred aimed at Israelis on this blog. And it looks like most would support Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists if they could.

To me I don't see any difference between people like Mr.Silverstein and those folks in the Aryan Nation and the Neo Nazi movements, save for the shaved heads and tats you folks would fit right in.

I guess you're a AIPAC supporter then?

Can you elaborate? 200+ Israelis that you mention were killed by whom and where?

How many Palestinians would you like to see killed for each Israeli death? Would 100 be acceptable to you? How about 1,000?

We'd like to have specific number. That way we can pass on your policy recommendations to each side. We know you only have the best interests of all sides in mind.

Nice deflection, TJ.

I was just reading through this interesting discussion. But who is this Bev D. Is she Josh? Is this her blog? She acts like she's the goddam referee and is incredibly annoying. On the other hand, I like TJ, Richard1052 and Wordie. They know how to blog. Bev knows how to kibitz from the side.

UN recognition is not the only arbiter of legitimacy.  The position of the border with Egypt is not in dispute, the way it is in the West Bank.

I was puzzled by this post, MJ--I just started reading you in recent weeks and didn't expect this sort of double standard. If you wish to hold the Palestinian government responsible for this atrocity, go ahead, though it seems some within that government opposed this crime. But then what do you say about the greater number of killings of innocent civilians committed by Israel, not to mention the apartheid-like policies of the occupation? Obviously the Israeli government is to blame for those crimes. So have you written them off yet?

I think there's a definite case to be made that many on both sides are suffering from PTSD, as there has been so much violence to both societies. It's one reason Bush's "hands off" policy just doesn't make much sense. The parties clearly are not able to come to a resolution on their own - they need (evenhanded) assistance.

Know your enemy well, for in the end that is who you become. ~~Old Chinese Proverb

waltc said:

That said, I'm sure many liberals here would rejoice at the mass slaughter of Israeli Jews and given the sheer level of hatred aimed at Israelis on this blog.

...To me I don't see any difference between people like Mr.Silverstein and those folks in the Aryan Nation and the Neo Nazi movements, save for the shaved heads and tats you folks would fit right in.

I've posted here for well over a year, and although I see these sorts of way-over-the-top accusations being repeatedly made by a few posters of the Israel-can-do-no-wrong school, I've yet to see even one instance of anyone on the left even <i>remotely</i> stating, or even hinting at such a desire.

I thought conservative hardline supporters of Israel generally claim that liberals are "too soft," so these sort of comments seem completely illogical on that level as well.

Know your enemy well, for in the end that is who you become. ~~Old Chinese Proverb

TJKING said “Although the significant naval support and minor logistical support is and was appreciated, the American insurgency would have slow boiled until the napoleanic period when we would have taken advantage of the british preoccupation with another example of French governmental wrongdoing, an emperor that tried to take over the world.”

 Although the Iranian support is and was appreciated by the Iraqis, the Iraqi insurgency will simply slow boil until the American military surge plays out do to the overextension of forces and the crippling cost which is another example of American governmental wrongdoing and stupidity and an emperor wanna-be president that tried to take over the world.

It does seem like an excuse.

It's a volunteer army. Nobody gets drafted. Besides I wasn't talking about her opinions, most of which I share, but her obnoxi

SeeDee

Who knows?...maybe MJ is a mole-troll.. Maybe, for the sake of peppering up the mix from commenters, he runs these articles, first, seemingly high-lighting progressive and anti-Likud points to elicit the views of fence-sitters, progressives and out and out anti-Semites; and then posting a report such as the one above to allow all the close-minded dyed-in-the-wool right-wing Likudians and fellow-travellers to vent their venom and, in some cases, honest convictions.

Nothin' wrong with a little baiting (of one side or the other) for the sake of a lively, and ongoing, exchange.

I think it’s about time people who like to consider themselves enlightened, etc., etc. are finally willing to stand up and say that the French people have a right to build a nation with a distinctly French identity in the land that they and their ancestors have always seen as their homeland,

I think it’s about time people who like to consider themselves enlightened, etc., etc. are finally willing to stand up and say that the German people have a right to build a nation with a distinctly German identity in the land that they and their ancestors have always seen as their homeland,

"Yawn, yawn, yawn. At least the Germans and the French can say that the Turks and Algerians came later."
"But they were invited!"
"So who invited the Jews?"
"The weren't invited anywhere! The Germans and French tried to kill them and they threw the rest out."
"Racism is so confusing."

I think it’s about time people who like to consider themselves enlightened, etc., etc. are finally willing to stand up and say that white people have a right to build a nation with a distinctly white identity in the land that they and their ancestors have always seen as their homeland.

Speaking of the media...C-Span2 will be carrying a speech by Ismail Haniyeh, Prime Minister, Palestinian Authority, Hamas Party, at 12:13 PM, EDT (on Wed. March 21, that is). He'll be speaking about the new coalition government. The program will be repeated on C-Span1 at 6:09 AM EDT. The speech lasts 37 minutes. There will perhaps be other repeats on C-Span, but they aren't up on the schedule yet. Here's the C-Span schedule link: http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/schedule.csp

Whatever one may think about Haniyeh, it should be interesting to hear what he has to say.

Know your enemy well, for in the end that is who you become. ~~Old Chinese Proverb

OK

have as much right as any other self-identified group to a nation they consider theirs, as long as they can defend it by force of arms or general international consensus.

Um, you didn't mean to say that, because it would imply that the Palestinians have no right to a state.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

I have seen Arafat's pictures a number of times, and if his headdress resembled Palestine, I am resembling Marilyn Monroe (e.g. I do have some hair on my head).

About erasing Green Line: is there any difference between a deed and an intention?

As far as I know Germany is still in existence and the German people sitll exist. And there are still portions of the world not part of the modern state of Germany that the German people regard as their ancestral homeland. I suppose some Germans may still long in their hearts for the recovery of their lost homelands.

But, obviously, this way of thinking about the rules that should govern the world's territories is absurd. There are far too many "peoples" out there, with far too many lost ancestral homelands, to satisfy all those national yearnings. These homelands often have other "peoples" living on them - or even just a bunch of individuals, families and small communities who are not themselves "a people". The primacy given to ethnic nationalisms and national rights is also not a particularly enlightened or progressive view of the world, but an outgrowth of a reactionary and traditionalist 19th century movement. That movement undermined the emerging modern system of states, and the emerging liberal concept of contractual, voluntary republican self-government by the citizens of a republic rather than the scions of a nation, by identifying a more ancient, primitive and supposedly more legitimate framework of "nations" and "peoples" who all seemingly needed to be liberated from those modern states - unless they happened to live in a state that was regarded as the modern political "expression" of some nation.

Your question is a good one for research that I'm not equipped to do. Indeed, it is a question that I hope has been addressed by the intelligence community, who presumably also have access to incidents that don't rise to MSM visibility and to the status of negotiations. Still, it is approachable through unclassified Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) techniques and sources, one of which, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS) is available free at a number of universities. FBIS access to the general public goes through one information broker and is not cheap. Ideally, researcher(s) would also know Hebrew and Arabic.

Musing on the question you raise, my first thought was "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". I'm not trying to assign Orwellian equivalents to the sides in the I-P conflict. Israeli media are, of course, much more active than the Ministry of Truth; I don't know how objective Palestinian media may be.

An aside that may be interesting: a couple of years back, as part of a consulting project, I did a statistical analysis of al-Jazeera news broadcast, and, to my surprise, found them much more balanced than I would have expected. I took 183 consecutive al-Jazeera news items from FBIS, and ranked them on a numerical scale from strongly anti-American (1) to strongly pro-American (5). The results fit a bell curve (normal distribution) fairly well; the mean was shifted a little to the anti-American side, but not too significantly, around 2.6 IIRC.

Anyway, there are, indeed, factions that need a constant war. It's interesting to contrast this to the Cold War, where factions indeed benefitted from a perception of constant threat. Given two major nuclear states with a survivable second-strike capability by the mid-sixties to early seventies, the threat of annihilation, if general war broke out, was much more real than either I-P side faces in plausible scenarios. Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) was ugly, but it worked.

MAD, of course, requires two reasonably rational actors, with a major technological capability. There were proxy wars and there were occasional shooting incidents and near-misses, but the sides stayed far more controlled.

On the Soviet side, the ideologists believed that the dialectic meant Marxism-Leninism would eventually triumph. That meant that suicidal attacks made no sense.

With powers as disparate as Israel and Palestine, can there be anything approaching MAD? For that matter, can Israel and Iran ever get into MAD?

Again as an aside, some MIT people did interesting detailed scenarios for Israeli attacks on Iranian nuclear facilties. The report is quite technical, and I am not sure about all their conclusions, but it is interesting. It's fairly clear that the present Iranian capabilities would have a good deal of trouble stopping an Israeli-only attack.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Forgive me for trying to say what you might mean, and feel free to correct me. I read your statement about 1947 (probably 1948 is historically correct) in that the State of Israel is a reality, with which I agree.

Are you suggesting that the UN resolutions partitioning the former British Palestine create a definitive solution for the present Palestinians, or are you thinking only of Israel?
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Well, if that's what you want to believe, it's clear I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

But whether you like it or not, Israel is a sovreign country.  Attempts to expunge Israel by pretending it doesn't exist are but one of numerous instances of Palestinian dishonesty.  That's true whether or not their land was stolen and whether or not they live in tents.

And no, that doesn't mean Israel is 100% honest about everything either.  Like all countries, Israel shades the truth when that suits its purpose.  It's just that unlike the Palestinians, Israelis rarely just make shit up.

It's hard to understand how the comment offered above,

I'm sure many liberals here would rejoice at the mass slaughter of Israeli Jews

can be described as merely "unfair," by a poster who then goes on to offer a sideways defense of the comment by positing the need for a defense against "lies, half-truths, canards, fabrications and just plain venom."

Irony may not have been theintent here...

Know your enemy well, for in the end that is who you become. ~~Old Chinese Proverb

This is the first time I have ever zero-rated a post. It shouldn't be necessary to explain why, but slurs have no place here.

How exactly does this differ from "might makes right"?

you have a right to national self-determination...if you can get it?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Those are the Israeli arguments. Since when is racism meaningless?

Haven't YOU heard? Hamas was formed a few generations after racists European Zionists descended upon the Palestinians and threw them out of their homes and lands.

"Why else would the world be pitching in to pay their expenses if it were not a ransom to get them to stop killing innocent people .... "  TJKING

My understanding is that international aid flowing into Palestine is for humanitarian reasons alone.  The Palestinians, as a people, would be dying under the military occupation otherwise. 

It is interesting to note that the US, as is usual lately, acting contrary to international norms has passed legislation to cut off aid to Palestine until the Palestinians "start behaving themselves".  And from all credible accounts, it is elements of the Israeli lobby* in the US which has pushed this legislation.

*I could be wrong about this.  Certainly the Israeli lobby has pushed this, but on the other hand, I'm not rejecting the idea that elements of the US gov't want to be pushed.  This is like trying to read entrails, at best

allysgift, this is the best description and promotion of the one-state solution I have read anywhere.  Congratulations on your understanding of an mystifying & scary topic.

Wow, RJB, you are so deep. You and Jane Fonda see things so clearly.

Let me see if I have this right. The Terrorists in Iraq that are fighting for a world takover by a hegemonistic religious cult of misogynistic beheaders are identical in character and morality to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and the colonists that sacrificed their lives for your freedom. Wow, I'm surprised I didn't notice how wicked the framers of our constitution really were. Maybe the tyrannical King George should have held out longer until they noticed that freedom and democracy was not preferable.

"...the Iraqi insurgency will simply slow boil until the American military surge plays out..."

So, you are admiting that our enemies are fully aware that if they can hold on for a little bit longer, our Congress will terminate any hopes for democracy and freedom in Iraq and an elite minority of blood thirsty demons will crush any hope for human dignity in the region.

Well, I guess the point of your post was you intend to give them what they want.

do to the overextension of forces and the crippling cost which is another example of American governmental wrongdoing and stupidity and an emperor wanna-be president that tried to take over the world.

They were a good idea in 1947, and the Palestinians should have taken the deal. At this point, though, that's all pretty meaningless; the point is how to get a Palestinian state today, and where, not what might have happened 60 years ago.

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

And you are the Frenchman that called my mother a whore? Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!!

Are you denying that the bribes from Saddam were pervasive throughout Chiracs government and widespread in the largest corporations in France? Are you denying that Chiracs Chief of Staff took bribes from Saddam? Are you denying that the leader of Chirac's political party took bribes from Saddam?

He is a crook and an accomplice to a mass murdering monster. His government is immoral. Let me be more clear,...the government of France sucks.

Are you going to call me a racist again for saying that. The colonial french masters are big victims aren't they?

The French people are the victims of that bunch of crooks.

The French government consistently screws up, sucks everybody else into it, then raises their hands and surrenders, then gets in the way of those that are rescuing them, then spits on the graves of those that have sacrificed to save them from their own idiocy.

You must work for that criminal Chirac.

I have had a lot of people surrender the argument and then call me names on here when they realize their argument is so weak that it can not stand up to a debate, but I have never had someone call my mother a whore.

I consider that the ultimate form of surrender and one that would be very fitting for a member of the French government.

Everytime you see a french politician ask him if he speaks German, when he says no, simply tell him, "your welcome".

nous soumettons à toi