Siegel ...argues that for many others "the issue of terrorism [is] a trump."

Egads! I agree with Lee Siegel!!! 

Dissent Protects Democracy.

"...Giuliani was Mayor of New York he was a crazy, mean, dangerous authoritarian..."

Why don't you stop dancing around the phrase that liberals like Chris Matthews have let fly.

Fascist! Rudy starts rising in the polls and suddenly the left wants to trot out the "Crazy, mean, dangerous, authoritarian, ...Fascist!" image of Rudy Guiliani.

Here comes the fascist card. The Mussolini card.

Why don't we call him a "Vito Corleone" type mean bully. Or maybe an organ grinder type crazy person. How about his Gestalt is a Tony soprano type mean guy image.

I guess its OK to tee off on Republican front runners religion and ethnic background, but Democrats are a different matter.

And yet again, I think people don't understand what motivates many of the wingers. They flat out hate liberals and Democrats, and actually believe the stuff coming from Limbaugh and his cohort about how liberals are ruining the country, are foolish do-gooders and all the rest. They like Giuliani because he can win and keep the dangerous Democrats out of power; that's it. It's the rawest form of "tribalism": us against them. Rudy's an R, so he's an "us" to the wingers.

In times of peace, the wise man prepares for war. -- Horace

The blade itself incites to violence. -- Homer

Why don't we call him a "Vito Corleone" type mean bully. Or maybe an organ grinder type crazy person. How about his Gestalt is a Tony soprano type mean guy image.

We liberals hadn't thought of those yet, but thanks!

Dissent Protects Democracy.

Thanks for the correction!

Andrew, I disagree, I don't think there is any substance to these accusations and I think the Anti-Italian-American ethnic stereotypes and ethnic slurs that I read while I was browsing the links made me wonder if these people actually see their own distasteful prejudice.

I have read virtually every one of the numerous links you used and then in addition I read numerous links from those, many of which form a circle jerk that turns in on itself, chattering with adjectives of how he is authoritarian, fascist, Italian Mussolini,...but very little substance. Many have no factual accusations at all, just the name calling.

The surprising thing is that these liberal bloggers seem to have a common theme. They all start out with how they think Rudy is a good guy, they think he was a good mayor, BUT......and then they start with the Italian-American ethnic stereotypes ...authoritarian, thug, bully, macho, mussolini, fascist.

It is almost as if these liberals are saying, I learned to like Rudy as a person and as a Mayor, but..eeeeww! a Republican, I felt dirty afterwards. I had to take a shower in Ethnic slurs until I felt better.

The circular links all tend to circle around and point back at Jonathan Alter's piece, "Rudy's dark side", so lets look at that one first. If it is the gold standard of "Authoritarian" critique's of Rudy, it should be outrageous. After lengthy references to what Alter believes is his mean and dangerous style, the only events or actions it came up with was the Diallo shooting which, by the way Rudy was not there, but he voiced support for the NYPD officers and in fact they were acquitted. The only other Fascist act according to Alter, he didn't talk to Burrough President C. Virginia Fields very often. Wow, Benito Mussolini's got nothing on this guy. Jonathan Alter then has the honor of all the others pointing back to his Article. Oh, and Alter mentions that Al Sharpton doen't like Rudy. That's a character witness.

Next link, Matt Yglesias points to Kevin Drum who points back at Alter. You supplied two Yglesias links and two Kevin Drum links. Both said he was a good guy, good mayor, but J. Alter thinks he is authoritarian.

Here was a comment on KDrum's post, "...Rudy has a political MO very much in the mold of Cheney and Nixon with the addition of a real addiction to media fawning. As president he could easily become a modern-day MUSSOLINI. He would be worse for democracy than bushiekins has been..."

The worst thing Yglesias said in either of his links was, "...He could have tried to apply the hard-charging zeal he'd brought to reforming police procedures to some other significant area of urban policy..."

Next link, Ezra Klein at American Prospect (one of two links to Klein and one of two links to American Prospect). He links to Yglesias who points back to Alter. No real factual events or actions.

Here was one of the comments to his post, "...If anyone is looking for evidence that Rudy is a FASCIST, just put him on television and let someone contradict him....",[Posted by: MaggieMahar | February 9, 2007 04:56 PM].

The word Fascist comes up again and again as well as the name Mussolini.

Finally Stranger at Blah3 is the first and only one to take a real crack at a list of Fascist activities. Before he starts, again he points to Alter and Ezra Klein who points at Ygleisias who points at Alter. Then he says, "...just to remind everyone that as much of a Fascist ..."

His list consists of Rudy and D'Amato trying to see if they could buy crack in the park as an experiment, but couldn't find any. He argued that the city should be allowed to reject certain Bus ads that used the Mayor's likeness and not others, based on a state law that forbids city officials to allow their names to be used for commercial purposes. He argued that a Museum that depicted bigoted material as Art could open the city up to liability for the fact that the law restricts government funded programs to be proponents of ethnic and religious bigotry.

He said if the artist would like to continue to generate art that shows balls of shit dropping on the Virgen Mary, thats his Right, but it may be illegal for the City government to pay him to make the so-called art and display it. Some Civil Rights groups supported the Mayor such as the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Stranger's final Fascist example was when the Mayoral primary occurred on September 11, 2001 which just happened to occur at the same time and place as America's worst attack ever, Rudy asked that the Primary be delayed and asked for permission for an emergency extension of his term for 3 months so he could execute his disaster recovery management plan that made him Time magazine's man of the year. The legislature chose not to and Rudy graciously bowed out on the scheduled date.

OK, so stranger was the most prolific poster, but hardly Benito Mussolini the Fascist dictator from the nation of Italy.

Next link, Mark Schmitt, a frequent TPM contributor, had mostly good things to say but mentioned Rudy's innovation of "perp walks" by which he embarrassed white collar criminals that made fortunes stealing from little old ladies on Wall Street. Apparently he would arrest them at their power lunches and at their desks and handcuff them, then walk them to the squad car. Ummm, ok, doesn't sound too fascist to me, but, oh well.

Some of the links point to somewhat conservative blogs that have mostly positive things to say or speculate on how conservatives will vote for a liberal like Rudy who had gay roomates and appointed liberal judges. One link voices astonishment at why powerline bloggers like Rudy, but don't like McCain, which is like consevatives expecting Zell Miller to get the nod for the Democratic Nomination.

After that you have links about polling and a link to Glenn Grenwald that points back to Kevin Drum again that points at Alter, who's sole argument about the mean italian fascist is the support of the acquitted NYPD officers.

Although the actions, events and characteristics of fascisim are missing, I heard more adjectives and references to evil, authortarian fascism. References that made remarks about how everynone knows he is a fascist or maybe Non-NewYorkers just don't get it that he is Mussolini, or the rest of us are New York haters or otherwise we would know that he is IL Duce.

It hasn't been too convincing, I'm sorry.

This is a joke, Andrew. I took your word for it, I wasted all this time following these links and nothing but ethnic slurs about Italian Americans, Fascist, mean, Mafia, Thugs,...but they all start out with..."I like him", He is one of the nicest, likable guys".

If this was Slate Gorten or some WASP from Montana, would people be calling him a modern day Mussolini or a fascist. No, this is ugly.

I learned one thing. The theme I mentioned. I heard almost all of the liberals say, basically, I liked a Republican, I liked him a lot and it made me feel kind of squemish, maybe even scared, ...but after attacking him with ethnic slurs like only New yorkers can do, I felt better.

Republicans would support him in a minute. I think you underestimate how strongly conservatives feel about the war and overestimate the influence of the Evangelicals. Republicans can accept some of his liberal views if they feel he is the one that will be a vigorous proponent of the war.

McCain? That would be like Republicans wondering why Democrats don't nominate Zell Miller. If anybody doubts that, why was the media asking McCain last year for assurances that he would not run as an independent if the situation came up. If the media can see his diminished loyalty to the party, then how is it that Republicans can't see it.

I agree with your first statement, Rudy is a formidable Electoral College candidate.

I think it isn't talked about because the punditry is sort of walled off from real life. Liberals hang out with other liberals; conservatives with other conservatives; the well off with the well off, and so on. As a result, the people who write about these topics end up having very little contact with the people they write about, and so they try to guess what those people are like, as opposed to hearing what they actually say. I have the advantage of living and working among the people who are the hard right wing rank and file of this country, and I've been hearing them talk about Giuliani approvingly for years, not because he's some kind of tough guy, but because he can win. These people who don't know any wingers but try to analyze what they will and won't do, well, it's next door to pointless.

Speaking of tough guys, it strikes me that all this talk about Rudy the hardass is playing to Marshall's Bitch Slap theory of electoral politics (with which I largely agree), but I've known for a while now we liberals aren't as smart as we think we are.

In times of peace, the wise man prepares for war. -- Horace

The blade itself incites to violence. -- Homer

You may not trust what most of the bloggers say for all kinds of reasons, but I, one New Yorker, would like to warn you that there IS substance to most of the accusations, he DID act very dictatorially many times during his time in office, he's not good playing with others, he shows a real nasty side to the media if they do not ask softball questions, he has a terrible temper, and he DID show a side most had not seen before on 9/11.

He does not fit the stereotype of mobster, the stereotypes he fit to a tee during his mayoralty were, first: rude arrogant New Yorker, second: prosecutor. He is not a good politician, he doesn't agree with tempering what he thinks is right to anyone. Post 9/11 there is a false nationwide image of St. Rudy that does not realize that he is exactly the type of New Yorker that makes people in flyover country hate New Yorkers.

I will be amazed if he manages not to self-destruct in the first town hall meeting where a regular citizen asks him something that challenges him and he basically says: "go fuck yourself."

We New Yorkers put up with that because in New York City we know lots of people like that and understand them. Plus a majority of us felt that we needed a dictator at the time to clean up the Democratic party corruption and crime. This nation is not in the same place at all, they are sick of a president that doesn't seek advice from others. Rudy is worse on that front, he thinks he knows better than anyone else what is to be done about anything, and he will stick to a failing "case" like the pit bull prosecutor he was once was.

I think you don't know the real Rudy Guiliani at all and you are in for a big surprise, along with many others in the country. Believe me, I've seen family members in the Midwest who have fallen for the St. Rudy of 9/11 shtick and I know from knowing their political predilections that they would not like Rudy at all once they knew the real Rudy.

These are some published books that have been written on Guiliani

The Full Rudy: The Man, the Myth, the Mania by Jack Newfield Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City by Andrew Kirtzman Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11 by Wayne Barrett America's Mayor: The Hidden History of Rudy Giuliani's New York by Robert Polner

Those titles simply cannot have come out of thin air.

P.S. You are right that he's not like a mobster. That's because his uncle was a minor Brooklyn mobster and his father spent some time in Sing-Sing before going straight for the kids. (You want a link, you can start here where those facts are mentioned within the context of a glowing essay on Rudy.) He considered the priesthood before going on to become a prosecutor. All this might have something to do with him liking, in his prosecutor days, to do things like having brokers dragged off the floor of the exchanges in handcuffs to television coverage.

(from your response to Andrew: Here was one of the comments to his post)

Listen, TJ. If your assessment of "liberals" comes from the comments frenzy in any of the blogs mentioned in Andrew's post, I'd say you are making sweeping generalizations here.

How, for example, do you even know those commentors -- not to sound too conspiratorial here -- aren't right wing stirrer-uppers?

There's a huge difference in my mind between comments in those blogs and the liberals you interact with here at TPMC. It's a difference between anonymity and pseudonymity, and it has everything to do with credibility.

Even beside that, you cannot attribute what "liberals" think to something you saw in a few comments in a blog. That's simply anecdotal, and very every one of those, I'll find you many right winger who'll say something just as extreme over at Free Republic.

Even beyond all that -- what is it with you, and others like you, who find using words like fascism is somehow a sin? artappraiser said to you:

...there IS substance to most of the accusations, he DID act very dictatorially many times during his time in office, he's not good playing with others, he shows a real nasty side to the media if they do not ask softball questions, he has a terrible temper, and he DID show a side most had not seen before on 9/11.

So, is it really just the use of the word "fascist" that you object to? Are you willing to deal with the substance of the charges against him, or is "fascist" simply a red herring to get everyone off the real subject, that Rudy as President may turn out to be more of a disaster than W Bush?

Dissent Protects Democracy.

"...How, for example, do you even know those commentors -- not to sound too conspiratorial here -- aren't right wing stirrer-uppers?..."

You realized how goofy this sounded right after you typed it, didn't you?

[Karl Rove, Karl Rove, Karl Rove]

Look. You said "we liberals", I responded with "you liberals",...you made a statement that requires not a blanket characterization of all liberals, but requires a single specific, which is what I was referring to.

If you are arguing that not all Liberals use ethnic slurs and stereotypes, I would agree with that, but I was not alleging that. As you could see from my previous post, I was not alleging all do, I was alleging that many do, and most of the rest tolerate it. Case in point Joe Lieberman.

Rather than rationalize or argue against something I never mentioned, why don't you prove me wrong by condemning the ethnic stereotypes referring to Mr. Guiliani's Italian heritage.

As I said, if he was a WASP from Montana, we wouldn't be hearing all this Fascist Mussolini stuff. I think its distasteful and if you would like to prove me wrong, condemn it.

Its not that I don't trust what they are saying, its that they are all saying such hyperbolic things about him being a fascist, yet they don't really supply any factual information to back it up. They usually point to how all New Yorkers remember having a general feeling about him being a fascist, based on pseudo-events. It is really quite possible they are remembering their own over exagerated rhetoric as fact.

I am not claiming to be an expert on Rudy or his number one fan. I brought this stuff up, because I think a lot of people are using ethnic stereotypes as a poor substitute for factual criticisms of his resume. If people are trying to get the rest of America to dislike Rudy, they should use facts, not bigotry.

You have obviously had experiences with him that I have not, and I will keep my eyes open for examples of the things you mentioned. If he does tell someone off in an interview, I will remember your remarks, but I may not consider it a disqualification for office. After all, I just watched a former President rip Chris Wallace up one side and down the other, and I don't think that makes him Fascist.

I'm not sure of the meaning of your final paragraph. I appreciate your thoughtful posts and if it were anybody else I might think you are being sarcastic that he is "not exactly a mobster" but comes from a "typical" Italian mobster family. I am more likely to believe you are conveying the popular image of him in the Reagan years as the driven gangbuster that was putting the mob out of business, while at the same time tearing down the stereotype about Italian Americans and that his childhood experiences were in part a motivation for that.

Your last sentance, I mentioned in my post.

"...Next link, Mark Schmitt, a frequent TPM contributor, had mostly good things to say but mentioned Rudy's innovation of "perp walks" by which he embarrassed white collar criminals that made fortunes stealing from little old ladies on Wall Street. Apparently he would arrest them at their power lunches and at their desks and handcuff them, then walk them to the squad car. Ummm, ok, doesn't sound too fascist to me, but, oh well..."

Thanks for your response. Always informative. I'll keep an eye out.

You realized how goofy this sounded right after you typed it, didn't you?

No, I realized that BEFORE I typed it. Heh.

You said "we liberals", I responded with "you liberals"

No, your allegations of what "liberals" and "the left" do started in your response to Andrew. And you based that on what a few anonymous commentors said in a blog somewhere.

That's a sweeping generalization. Caveat your statements with "I saw an anonymous comment in a blog that said..." and you'll be just fine.

Of course, your statements don't carry the same weight if you do, but that's of course my point.

I'm really not all that interested in proving you wrong, or any ethnic stereotypes, etc, etc. Personally, I think your already drumming up the "Woe Is Rudy The Victim" beat which I think we'll hear more and more of as the campaign rolls on.

My interest here is in you painting "the left" as believing and saying those things based on a few errant statements in a blog.

Your tactic is one I am sure we'll see plenty more of.

Dissent Protects Democracy.

And that's exactly my worry, that Dems sit around and wait for this implosion, and all along, he continues to steamroll into something the Dems will not be able to stop.

I say we start hitting him now.

Leaving out, of course, the Italian mob references. :-)

The Dems biggest challenge will be to separate Rudy from 9/11. That's a tough job, but it's really all he's got.  

Dissent Protects Democracy.

Exactly

Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated.

The "load of crap" I was referring to was your implication, "proven" by citing a handful of commenters, that the driving force behind criticism of Giuliani is anti-Italian bigotry. You might not think he is an authoritarian, while others might. I don't have the time or desire to argue about that. But you see the "authoritarian" charge in the bloggers' writings, and you disagree, then you see the anti-Italian card played by a few commenters, and Voila! all that previous criticism magically becomes nothing but an ethnic slur. And since when does "authoritarian" or "fascist" (as in the Blah3 article) automatically mean "Mussolini"? There were and are others, you know.

It is true, Rudy did order his police chief to screw his girlfriend at the Public rest suite.

Umm, I know if you have to ask what the joke means it must not be too funny, but what is ScreRudy?

K, I get it