Who here said all issues boil down to class struggle. Marx and Engels did in 1848, but as far as I know they haven't posted here recently. I think you're setting up a straw man.

The real issue is how do we stop Bush from launching an air strike on Iran.

Tom

Several questions of EJ and Max

Do either of you know to what degree the "netroots" having any experience in grass roots campaign politics? Any sense whether the posters attended precinct caucuses? District conventions? Work on lit drops? Go door knocking with a candidate? Organized "meet & greet" house parties? etc? My sense is that at the Coffee House, there is more experience but at some of the other blog site there is less understanding of "politics as the art of the possible"?

Secondly, do either of you know (have any idea)whether the "netroots" crowd is involved in grass roots party building (capacity building) -- particular in regards to lower-on-ballot candidates like state senate and house candidates?

Third, Max, if I remember correctly, many of the hard core New Left activists did not opperative within the Democratic Party Structure (or if they did, it was only so that they could "take it over". And if I remember correctly, there was a very strong reaction against street actions. Here in Minneapolis, law and order police chief Charley Stenvig (sp?) was voted into office on the tides of the 'race riots" in North Minneapolis and (and, if I remember correctly he had much public support in bringing the Mpls Police onto the U of MN campus in response to student protests that involved property damage. Max, are you concerned about how confrontational protests can be counter-productive?

Fourth, the 2008 Republican Presidential Convention will be held in Minneapolis/St.Paul. What kind of demonstations do you think migh be most effective. Here in Minnesota, our Democratic Party is the DFL (the Democratic Farmer Labor Party) and my hope is that we have a DFL Welcoming Parade (Welcoming the Republicans to Blue Country); a big, up-beat, parade; a really big up beat with contigencies from each of the state's 60 plus senate districts, and from the different DFL caucuses (for example, the Progressive Caucus) and from other groups (like Grand Mothers for Peace). Max, since this would be a big, love-fest media event, we could make a free for all which would mean that the Republicans could even join in. It would be a kind of grass roots competition. My hunch is that for all their talk, they are not all that "grass roots". PS; We would have the DFL Marching Band (Minneosta Hail to Thee). We could even invite a bloggers contigency which would allow them to cover the parade from "the inside" -- instant messaging, if you will. Remember, the mayors of both cities are Democrats. So Max, what do you think? Are you to old for some "street theatre"? Seriously, how can the Democrats make the convention into a DFL Democrats photo-opportunity?

Sorry to ramble (and for problems with grammer,etc.)
Stephen

If people wish to put class struggle in the same league as gender struggle , thats fine, it perfectly identifies your experience.Bourgeois and priveleged. What is necessary is a prioritization of "identity" issues with class obviously leading the list.If that is "utopian" then so are the notions of emancipation and progress and justice.

He got us the ability to vote for the school board.

No doubt, he also brought some fresh ideas to the table. I do not like that there is now a one-party monopoly on City Council. Sure, it's the better party (on most issues), but I still want some variety.

Well, if I had my 'druther's, I would prefer to see Schilling in office in CVille, and Virgil Goode out on his fanny with Al Weed in Richmond representing us. Glad to see that Senator Macaca self-destructed too. I'm not sure I get your idea about variety.

If it's Republicans you want, there are plenty of them in Richmond and in the Executive branch of the federal government. We are(I am anyway) enjoying a respite from Republican Executive rule in Virginia, with a second Democratic governor. Our last several Republican governors managed to cut taxes, but now our roads are falling apart. It took the smart efforts of Mark Warner to put our budget back together so that Virginia is rated very highly again (it was falling precipitously with Allen and that dope -- forget his name, but he took away the car tax and Chris Matthews loves him -- who was he?)

My biggest gripe about living in Virginia is that my Presidential vote never counts because all of our Electoral Votes ALWAYS go to whatever Republican is running. Maybe 2008 --> more of the same, I'm sure, unfortunately. It really steams me that my vote doesn't count! I want to get rid of the Electoral College, but that does not belong on this thread!

Anyway, hope to run into you some day. I work on Pantops and live all the way the other direction on Garth Road! Plan to go to Vinegar Hill next week!

Jan Knaus

Things got pretty bad in Miami during demonstration a few years ago according to the PBS show NOW. I hear protesting at the 2004 Republican Convention in NYC was no picnic either.

PS You're mixing up the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge (I think) with ANSWER which is a sponsoring group for some of the protests. ANSWER always drags in stuff like Free Mumia. United for Peace and Justice is better at running anti-Iraq demonstrations in my opinion.

Tom

Tom

Whoops! I totally libeled the Alaskan Group. Sorry!

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

Say, perhaps I am being nostalgic, but didn't Marx and Engels claim that everyone on the left was a Utopian except them?

Re: it perfectly identifies your experience.Bourgeois and priveleged.

Just like people who go around fretting about "class struggle".
Also, "privelged" and "mby bourgeois?) do not necessarily belong together. "Rich and priveleged", yes, but the middle class struggles rather hard these days to get by.

Why don't you just make a list of how we all should behave? Really. You seem to love saying what people shouldn't do.

I think that this is at the core of what is less a disagreement than a misunderstanding (that maybe only postpones a disagreement).

Nobody is saying anything about acceptable behavior here - there is no argument to the effect that it is inappropriate or deviant, etc., or that you shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate.  Go ahead.  The argument is tactical: we're saying that, in this instance, it doesn't really work.  So, to the extent that we have common goals, we'd like you to join us in finding better ways to achieve those goals.  But, if you'd rather go into the streets, no one is going to get offended about it.

Conflating effective with acceptable, and tactics with behavior, is maybe a symptom of the understanding of politics as self-expression.  I don't mean to belittle - in a democracy, a real democracy, that is, expressing your opinion is important.  But in a large, messy representative-style republic, it's not all.

Today's big marches are no less risky than the huge ones in the late 60s/early 70s, by which time a majority had turned against the war (much like now). Those of us further left at the time called them "peace crawls." But we went anyway. We thought the most important thing was building cadre organizations of the hard core, and no question about it, those projects went over like gigantic lead balloons. I won't rehash why I think marches are useful, though far from the only useful activity.

As some commenters have noted, even peaceful gatherings in the recent past have drawn patently illegal police measures, including at the hands of Democratic officials. So demos and activism are not quite risk-free, even for innocent bystanders. Peaceful civil disobedience, moreover, draws police assault that goes unpunished.

The point of the class struggle reference was to point up the New Left as part of a very old tradition that continues, if in fits and starts, not some isolated episode. As you suggest, it's true that class framework glosses over fundamental matters of patriarchy, among others. In his comment my comrade 'Troutsky' goes overboard a bit here.

Folowing 'aMike,' utopianism is useful, though not sufficient. A notion of the ideal provides an objective, a standard, and a direction. In economic  analysis, for instance, this is standard practice. In political rhetoric, it's called "I have a dream."

In response to Stephen from Mi: My sense is the netroots have made important contributions to Democratic electoral efforts, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't speak to how much of this has been shoe leather, and how much sending money, but whatever it is has been positive. I've never said otherwise.

There wasn't much interest in taking over the Dems, more in replacing them. Many in the left or influenced by it went into Dem campaigns --  getting 'clean for Gene,' McGovern, RFK, Teddy K -- but to support them, not take over (which would have been impossible anyway).

The democratic socialist tendency around Michael Harrington and the ADA (of which I'm a National Exec Board member, FYI) constituted themselves as a loyal opposition within the DP and contested to some extent in primaries. They always came around in the national elections, however.

Confrontation and disruption always elicit two contradictory reactions, some rally to your side, and others rally in opposition. How the proportions stack up depends on circumstances, how the cause is motivated, the political climate, the nature of the action. Well-executed non-violent disruptive civil disobedience for an important cause when the political system is manifestly indifferent (or rigged) is worth considering. (Our local traffic columnist "Dr Gridlock" went apoplectic when some activists blocked a bridge during rush hour, calling them "terrorists.")

I can't resist reacting to a recurrent theme in the outrage over my netroots commentary (not a reference to anything Graff has said) -- the idea that I and the rest of the radical hippies brought us Nixon and Reagan. Has everybody forgotten the "Southern Stragegy," and the tradition of race-baiting fully participated in by the Reagan mob? Why Trent Lott is a Republican now, though he began as a Democrat? Hello?

As far as the GOP convention goes, I would not try to shut it down. That would smack of anti-democratic practice. I'd try to bring out the most people and get as close as possible, make as much noise as possible, focus the message on the war, New Orleans/Gulf Coast, and protecting Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid. Let's hope the Democratic Convention does not deserve the same treatment.

Max B. Sawicky

http://maxspeak.org/mt

max@maxspeak.org

EJ, Thanks so much for responding. Something in your posts really strike a chord with me, and it just may have more to do with me than with what you're saying. I have been more than "feisty" and I do so appreciate your taking the time to write back. I will (as I state below) take a deep breath and try to be more empathic myself as I read your posts, and maybe I can see another side. Again, thanks.

Jan Knaus

Max

Thanks for your response.

My impression, and its just an impression, that many netroots are NOT VERY INVOLVED in grassroots organizing activities - but rather focus on "issues advocacy" and on "direct political action" activities. This impression is based, in part, on the fact that there is so little discussion that I am aware of in the progressive blogsphere of "best political gardening practices" (for example, how to develop and maintain a well-conceived Precinct Support Team).

My impression here is also colored by what I seen among those issues oriented activist within the Democratic Party -- and specifically the DFL Party as it is called here in Minnesota. The DFL Progressive Caucus is the "peace and justice wing" of the DFLand is probably now the most vocal and active caucus. From what I have seen, this caucus (and it members) have not shown much interest in "party building". Rather, it has apply its energy to push a "peace and justice" agenda within the DFL. (Note: as an offical organizaitonal unit the Progressive Caucus is "an insider organization" and in fact one of its former leaders is now Associate Chair of the State DFL Party.) But in terms of influence, they seem to have a minority status. The one place where members of the DFL Progressive Caucus successfully moved from "issues advocacy" to true successful "direct political action" is with the Keith Ellison candidacy. Here, "the progressives" in the MN Fifth Congressional District were able to dominate the District Nominating Convention (where Keith was endorsed) and then hit the streets in a door-to-door grass roots campaign to ensure his election. But what the Progressive Caucus has not focused on is "party building" (including helping to developing solid DFL Precinct organizational units throughout the state).

It would seem to me that if we wanted to ensure our successes in 2008, activists (including the netroots)would be more concerned about "party building" activities and we would "hear more chatter" about this topic within progressive blogs. This absence of chatter (both locally and nationally) suggests to me that the netroots (whose very name suggest grass roots) are not all that interested in such a basic grass roots activity as "party building". If this is true, I would assume it would be of concern to an old-time activist like you.

What's your take? Does this abscence of chatter about best-practices in party building in the blogsphere indicate the netroots are not engaged in a basic form of grass roots political gardening? If so, isn't this a serious problem?

Also Max, what about this parade idea? Imagine 4,000 marchers with hundreds Blue DFL banners, and flags and with marching bands and even some floats (for example a giant any-which-way-the-wind-blows Norm Colman wirgly-gig with flib-flob feet) marching from downtown Minneapolis to downtown St. Paul to greet our Republican guests ("kill them with kindness") and "steal the spot light" from them. What your take? I assume that given you are an old-time activists, you have a eye for political theatre.

Stephen from Minneapolis

Party building is fine if the Dems are your party. It's not clear how much anybody is doing that, netroots or otherwise. I've heard people say there is no open door to walk through, that the party is only there to collect your votes and money. There is no bottom-up channel of participation beyond supplying one's time, labor, and money.

Around here Members of Congress have "town meetings" where they speechify and take some questions. It is their show. I don't remember there ever being a Democratic Party meeting, and my county is about as Democratic as you can get.

I've thought that the way to go is organize independent organizations -- "Progressive Democratic Clubs," if you like -- that support or don't support Dems where they see fit. When you can command people and resources, the pols will come to you.

The Kos site is an interesting and important organizational creature in its own right. What it leads to we have yet to see -- it's still becoming.

The parade thing sounds fine. Street theater ("Billionaires for Bush") is good. I know there's this thing about "Minnesota Nice," but you can take anything too far.

No, you didn't. :-)

ANWR isn't a group, it's a Wildlife Reserve.

It's the difference between saying

a) class issues are important and have been throughout history

and

b) all history IS the history of class struggle.

b) is reductionist dogma, a) is not. I'm pretty sure Max was saying a).

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a second, Reece. Why is everyone who says a) accused of saying b)? Are we really so sure that

c) Class struggle has nothing to do with anything

is the correct position?

Quick question of Troutsky (sp?)

Do you believe in (or are you involved in, actively involved in) electorial politics? Just a question. If not, why? If so, how do you see you can make an impact (any impact)?

Thanks, Stephen from Minneapolis.

Coward.

What were you going to say?

From the great post by Stephen from Minneapolis:

Here in Minneapolis, law and order police chief Charley Stenvig (sp?) was voted into office on the tides of the 'race riots" in North Minneapolis and (and, if I remember correctly he had much public support in bringing the Mpls Police onto the U of MN campus in response to student protests that involved property damage.

And that's probably a major consideration why . . .

. . . the 2008 Republican Presidential Convention will be held in Minneapolis/St.Paul.