Taxing the Black
The Liberal Democrats of the UK have taken their first concrete step towards doing it. Al Gore has wanted to do it for a while. What is it? Taxing carbon - taxing the black.
In a world where Exxon lies about climate change - it is an increasingly attractive possibility, since people don't really know how much they will pay under the new system, and they know they are paying a great deal under the old one.
Taxing Black
Economists have wanted to find ways of "taxing bads" for some time - sin taxes being one catagorey of trying to tax bads, because people know they are bad. However, the taxes on cigarettes and alcohol aren't directly related to how much they cost society, but on "what the market will bear", trying to find the optimum recapture point for states that don't want to raise general taxes of some kind.
"Taxing Bads" is the term created by Arthur Pigou in 1920 in his book The Economics of Welfare. Emissions controls are one way of taxing bads - the cost of removing the pollution being passed on to the consumer or absorbed out of profits. However, it is widely recognized that simply placing a fee on pollution does not seem to work is that it is hard to collect the information needed. There has been some work on trying to tax output of pollution and tax inputs - such as levying a tax on petroleum, on the presumption that when burned it will produce a certain amount of carbon dioxide, with the buyer able to get a refund if they can show that they used it in a less carbon intensive manner.
The ulitmate problem of course, is that carbon is a rock, and sooner or later we are going to realize that we should leave it in the ground. But that requires developing options, and right now we are involved in an intensive campaign to avoid doing this. Which means that global warming is going to accelerate for the forseeable future. As Al Gore quipped in his speech - "We need a national oil change, and you can tell by looking at the national dipstick" - George W. Bush in this case.
And with the he costs of global warming are becoming visible, and they are becoming visible faster than was previously thought, this means that significant global warming costs are going occur.
Carbon dioxide is a normal producted of burning coal, which is, after all, carbon, and burning fuels made from petroleum, which is hydrogen and carbon, and from natural gas, which is hydrogen and carbon as a gas rather than as a liquid. Carbon dioxide is a very stable gas of its own accord, but it is absorbed by plants in their ordinary course of photo-synthesis, and dissolved by liquid water. In these forms carbon dioxide is broken up, and the carbon is often made part of living organisms. This cycle "sinks" carbon that is in the atmosphere. Under normal conditions there is a long term balancing of carbon dioxide - if carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere, the global temperature rises slightly, which over time increases plant activity, which absorbs more carbon, and restoring a running equilibrium. In the short term there are large spikes and valleys of temperature, as other factors - such as volcanic activity and the cycles of the sun - outweigh the effect of the ebb and flow of the carbon cycle.
What makes this important is that it isn't the carbon cycle which does most of the work. Water vapor holds more of the energy in the atmosphere than does carbon dioxide. Water moves that heat energy - a tropical storm is a giant heat pump, so are winds that blow off of hot regions into cooler ones. It is water that people care about for their own activities - cities, agriculture and manufacturing all locate near sources of water, or have water pumped in from distant locations if need be.
This means that we worry about global warming largely through the lens of what it does to the hydrologic cycle, it is the hydrologic cycle's shifts that are the most visible. For example disappearing arctic ice or the disappearance of a quarter of Peru's Andes glacier. Billions of people live where they live, because of the rain fall patterns and flooding patterns from ice melt. Changing these patterns will mean that hundreds of millions of people will want to move from where they are, to other places. Since this will be irrespective of national boundaries, it has the potential to be the most disruptive migratory period since the late 19th and early 20th century - when the introduction of better transport and the rise of the coal economy turned areas which had previously been marginal into major centers of production.
This is why taxing pollution, particularly pollution that causes global warming, is such an appealing idea: the distruption that major changes in where water falls, even if net neutral over the whole globe, would be huge. Since the world does not live under one government with completely free movement of people, such disruption will entail war, violence and genocide, as those without water try and take the lands of those with water, or those with water begin killing those without water who try and migrate. If you think that our current immigration scare in the US is a big deal, imagine what it would be like if agriculture collapsed in Mexico for want of water and was ablaze with wild fires.
However, until recently, the idea of taxing in the black was thwarted by the realizations by most consumers, that pollution taxes are consumption taxes. If you think about it, the present regime of taxing capital gains at a very low rate has the same net effect as carbon taxation - GDP generated by flipping bits on NASDAQ computers, which generates very little carbon per dollar of GDP, is taxed at a low rate. Wages - which tend to become consumption - are taxed at a high rate. The "financialization" of the American economy has helped reduce the energy density of GDP as much as technology has. If you want to see what a world with only consumption carbon taxes looks like, well, you are living in it more or less. There would be some changes on the margins - somewhat fewer poor people driving gas guzzlers, fewer people flying jet airplanes - but no real change in the direction of the economy - make the poor people pay.
This is why the step that both Gore and the LDP want to take is constructive - it replaces one set of regressive consumption taxes with another. At least, they can argue, you are no worse off, and you can make yourself better off by not polluting as much. However, this, alone, is not going to make the difference, for the simple reason that it does not change the incentives among elites to bet on continued carbon emissions.
The root theoretical reason for this is that input taxes on rent, or consumption taxes on rent, are not efficient. They may change marginal behavior, but for every person who stops using the rented good, it lowers the price, and encourages someone else to use a bit more. While the taxing entity gets income, at the cost of some production, the best that can really happen is neutrality. Most of the "gains" from not using the rented good will come from reductions in production, not from improvements in efficiency. We've seen this with the "back door" carbon tax of higher payroll taxes, lower capital gains taxes and a strong dollar. Most of the productivity wins of the 1990s came from increases in equity trading efficiency and lower wages from the Wal-Mart/Southwest effect. When you look at the actual improvements to productivity from increased efficiency, they are dwarfed by the bull market, and the pink collaring of Wal*merica.
This is why more sophisticated tax systems are needed to tax bads. One example is London's congestion tax. Congestion is pure bad - no one likes being stuck in congestion. While radio talk show hosts who scream right wing propoganda like congestion, since it creates a larger audience of rage fueled bored people - the only other people who like it are people who build highways, since congestion is a good argument for creating more lanes to be congested.
Congestion generates more pollution for less happiness than simply driving a car. Employers who want people to be at work at the same time, simply because it eases management problems, should also be charged for the privilege. Stop taxing per employee, and start taxing based on the waste profile. In otherwords target the areas where a great deal of carbon dioxide is generated for a very small amount of utility.
This means that the complementary idea to replacing payroll taxes with pollution taxes, or more generally taxes on bads, such as fat taxes and so on, is to replace much of the corporate tax structure - or rather, when we start taxing corporations again to pay off the huge debts that the Reagan-Bush-squared era racked up - we tax the costs being loaded on to society by the activity. Only by persuading investors to invest green will one get more technology that is green. Taxing the black, if only applied to consumption will create a perverse incentive to invest in technology that extends the life of current capital, rather than in replacing current capital with new systems entirely.
Let me explain that, because it is simple once you look at it. Imagine that some activity generated 10 dollars a year of black tax. Imagine for 2 dollars you can create a gizmo that will reduce that to 5 dollars of black tax. You sell it for 3 dollars, and the result is that people buy the gizmo, pay 3 dollars, and have their taxes reduced by 5 dollars. You are one dollar a head per person, each person is 2 dollars a head. The government is 5 dollars minus the black taxes on the gizmo behind. However, better would be to find a new activity that replaces the 10 dollars entirely, particularly because that 10 dollars includes some amount of "exempt" carbon production. Doing this would probably require replacing whatever capital people are using, and that will be more than a 2 dollar gizmo. Let us say it is 100 dollars to replace the original capital. This means that it will be 10 years before the consumer even breaks even against the current 10 dollar tax. Taking into account the time value of money the three options open are:
1. Do nothing, pay the tax.
2. Buy gizmo, pay less tax, and use the gizmo.
3. Replace capital, pay no tax.
Of these the second is easily the win, you get an immediate cost savings, even if you have to buy the gizmo every year because it wears out. Where as investing the 100 dollars doesn't break even until 12 years out with interest costs - you could have been investing that 100 dollars in making carbon tax reduction gizmos and making more money.
In short, only by building in pollution taxes into capital gains taxation, will there be a net change in investor psychology. The tobacco and asbestos law suits did exactly this - the fear of judgements cratered the value of these stocks. Given that petroleum companies lied, repeatedly, about global warming to consumers, it is only a matter of time before some bright team of lawyers realizes that there is a multi-trillion dollar lawsuit out there.
And even if they take only 10%, mere peanuts compared to the customary fees, on trillions of dollars, that is, as Prof Solow of MIT is wont to say, an awful lot of peanuts. For example, even if only 10% of the destruction of Katrina can be attributed to higher Sea Surface Temperatures brought about by global warming, that is a huge amount of money that people can sue for, particularly since much of the loses of individual people is not covered by insurance. Such events are only going to go up, and governments of drought stricken areas will have every reason to use courts to sue first world companies to collect something, anything, on their losses.
Since global warming is demonstrable, and at some point the linkage between global warming and its economic effects will be calculable, and nations and companies that have profitted from global warming have lied about it, you have all the elements you need for a law suit - harm, damages and intentional acts.
In The Long Run, not quite all of us are dead
The logical thing to do is for the government to get there first - there is going to be long term dislocation because of global warming. The effects are going to be catastrophic, even if only partially attributable to global warming. The costs of avoidance and amelioration - and we are going to have to admit that since we are not going to avoid further global warming under even the most aggressive scenarios - are going to be staggering. Either governments can get actuarial on the problem, and start building the costs into the structure now, or they can wait for catastrophe and hope that it costs less to fix the effects. The record of long building problems is not encouraging, in fact, the history of Europe is one of periodic violent convulsions that kill millions of people when there is a dislocating economic or environmental disaster.
The first clear example we have of this was the Minoan civilization, which grew up in the islands of the aegean, in no small part fed by the rich volcanic soil that allowed them to grow cash crops such as olives and trade with others. A series of volcanic eruptions laid waste to their key cities, and the climatic changes of that period, which may or many not have been directly related to the vulcanism, brought down hellenic invaders that proceded to burn their cities and end their period of dominance. The new invaders adopted the architecture, writing system, trading patterns and territory of the Minoans.
In short, by not investing when environmental factors were good, the Minoans were destroyed with very same long term factors that they had used to reach dominance turned against them, namely, good volcanic soil, a central trading location, and easy access to raw materials to make bronze. The invaders used that same bronze to make spear points.
One can look forward to the collapse of Rome in the same way, when large scale changes caused waves of tribes to pour down on to the Roman Empire in the West. As Victor Hanson summarizes the emerging scholarship:
To Heather, we have missed the significance of two unprecedented events. The invasions of 376 and 405–406 are not to be attributed to periodic incursions by tribal Tervingi and Greuthungi, Vandals, Alans, and Suevi. Those inroads were merely epiphenomena of a much larger and far more serious thirty-five-year-long mass migration caused by the advance of the Huns westward and southward, a gigantic demographic shift that drove other barbarians scurrying ahead into Roman territory—putting enormous pressures on tenuous Roman defenses along the Rhine and Danube.These initial incursions led to subsequent decades of unrest where frontier territory was insidiously lost, taxes disrupted, populations scattered, and, perhaps worse from the Roman perspective, accommodation and appeasement—rather than genuine efforts of assimilation—became the standard mechanism for provincial elites to deal with Hunnic inroads. So after this initial haymaker, Rome never quite recovered and was laid low by the final Visigothic knock-out punch in the late fifth century.
The inability of Rome to integrate the barbarians knocking at the gates, in sharp contrast to their previous policy of absorbing cultural influences and peoples, is though to have played a large part of this collapse. This, in turn, is rooted in the failure of the Romans to realize that the same climatic circumstances which made their empire possible, were producing favorable circumstances for asiatic invaders, the ancestors of today's European peoples, to multiply in number.
We can move forward from there, the argument, nakedly advanced by right wing economists, including a couple who have won the Nobel memorial prize, is that the future will be richer, so let them deal with it. This presumes that the have nots of the future are as willing to simply riot and die in place as the have nots of the present. History teaches us that when it becomes a matter of mass, rather than statistical, life or death, the have nots synchronize, and begin to try and take the wealth from the haves, even if they cannot run the means of production on which that wealth rests. The barbarian invaders of the Roman period didn't merely take wealth, they left the factories and the mines to decay. Coins became fewer in number and cruder, fewer people could read and write, population in cities plummetted, life spans decreased, mass produced home goods, such as pottery, reduced in amount and quality. The future isn't always richer than the present, particularly at the moment when the catastrophic manifests itself.
This is, in short, an example of "the Death Bet". The Death Bet is when an actor rationally bets that while there will be negative consequences for current actions, that since that actor will be dead by the time that the consequences occur, or more broadly the actor and any one the actor cares about will be dead by the time the consequences occur, there is no reason to take any precaution against the negative outcome. "It's the long run, and I am dead." Since the actors most likely to be injured by the long run are infants and those not even conceived - they are in no position to fight for their interests.
Investing in the Green and Taxing in the Black
Green investment is an essential part of surviving the changes that are coming in the world economic system. However, as long as it is possible to make billions by drilling $7/barrel crude and selling it for $60, there is almost no Green investment other than porn and gambling on computers that will compete. These being green because they use very little carbon for a great deal of trade. This means that balancing green investing with capital taxes on polluting is an essential step. The examples of Tobacco and Asbestos show that taxing black investing does have its benefits - both activities are substantially reduced, and less and less money is being invested in them.
Since the effects of the petroleum economy are visible, the drive to shift taxes from general income taxes, to taxing direct results of the petroleum economy will work, so long as it is packaged as what it is - unpalatable, but necessary. The other important frame change that must occur is to put before people the alternatives that actually exist, rather than those that don't. People were furious at the idea of 50 cent a gallon gasoline taxes. Back when gasoline was $1. Right now people could really go for some $1.50/gallon gasoline. The way to change this frame is by having pollution taxes directed that the problems that they are intended to solve. Social Security taxes are not challenged, in no small part because there is a direct connection between the tax, and the benefit. One way to do this would be to attach a gasoline tax to pay for the war in Iraq, which is, after all, a war over petroleum, even if you don't believe that it was a war for petroleum. Call it "the national defense tax", and attach it to every Iraq and Afghanistan appropriation.
It will take time to get these ideas in a form that the public is willing to accept. It will also take time for the problems to materialize that will argue for them. It is important to be in front of the problem, as Al Gore and Sir Menzies Campbell are, because when the series of problems arrives, people choose from available solutions that have already had time to marinate the public consciousness.















Taxes to control behavior are not compatible with taxes meant to raise revenue. Gore wants to replace the payroll tax with a pollution tax. If the tax is successful in decreasing pollution revenue will drop and there won't be enough income to pay for the social programs that the tax funds.
I don't think the London congestion tax is meant to raise revenue (or at least not much). One thing never talked about is how much the government(s) get from the current tax structure on the oil economy.
Why Governments like Fossil Fuels
--- Policies not Politics
Daily Landscape
September 20, 2006 8:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am not fully briefed or knowledgable on what Gore proposes, however, you comment re revenue taxes (vs sin taxes) is right on. Eventually the taxes would have go somewhere else to make up for shortfalls resulting from green solutions. This may not be such a big issue. We could always bring it back to the income tax.
Here's where it may become a problem. Income tax is progressive, which is a good thing. Jane Millionaire is in the 42% tax bracket, whereas Joe Pauper receives a tax credit and effectively pays no income tax. Taxes on carbon emmissions would take the form of a consumption tax (the energy company would just pass the tax costs on to the consumer), which is regressive. Jane Millionaire makes out in a consumption tax solution, even if she leaves the light on in every room of every house she owns. Joe Pauper's gonna pay taxes he didn't have to under income tax. Thus regressive taxation.
I'm sure AL gore is not for regressive taxes.
September 20, 2006 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
No it isn't.
If you taxed all income (including unrealized capital gains) it would be but our system is far from doing that. The payroll tax, which is really part of the income tax, is the most regressive tax of all.
The fallacy of a progressive income tax persists somehow and anybody that doesn't agree is a dirtbag conservative.
The fellow who first ran for president as the conservative alternative and supported the most rigid anti-abortion law ever proposed by fanatics, a constitutional amendment, hasn't changed his stripes. Just his color.
Instead of looking to taxation to control bad behavior, one might look to controlling political corruption first. Ending tax breaks for the oil and gas people and support for green energy might be useful.
Best, Terry
September 20, 2006 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and if we paid attention to Gore we'd be paying over $3.00 per gallon of gas.
September 20, 2006 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's simply not the case, about $15/bbl of the cost of oil is risk premium. That's "Iraq". If the US were pursuing a strong dollar balanced budget policy, the cost of oil would be closer to $40/bbl which translates to about $1.67.
Please learn to do the math if you are going to make claims about equilibrium models.
Stirling Newberry http://www.bopnews.com
September 20, 2006 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's possible that John was being facetious, since we had $3/gallon gas this summer and since it's likely to go above $3/gallon to stay in the near future.
September 20, 2006 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Depends on what you mean by "near".
Stirling Newberry http://www.bopnews.com
September 20, 2006 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
With all due respect, Federal income tax is a progressive tax schema that adjusts upward as more income is recorded (which is the very nature of progressive). Whilst you may disagree the lowering of the top brackets back in the 80's, and with the many tax loopholes that have been exploited or intentionally introduced, let's not quibble over the progressive nature of the tax-bracket system. We can leave it to the conservatives to doublespeak.
That said, an energy tax is no different than sales tax or any consumption tax. They are regressive since they distribute tax revenues equally across the entire population. Sure the rich will consume more, but not nearly enough to equal what they pay in the current income tax schema.
I favor emissions credits that can be traded or securitized, but that sunset over time. Sure it's what industry has backed and what some republicans have promised. It's a good idea when not abused or manipulated; whch of course is the problem with the current set running the country.
September 20, 2006 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm pretty sure that was irony. I would suggest that "near" means Wednesday,November 8th.
September 20, 2006 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you've put too much in this post. The historical references relate to changes that haven't, in our time, yet reached those critical points. What mass migrations we see, such as that of Central Americans into the U.S. are more due to man made calamities facilitated by brilliant Power Point presentations by our leaders. Specifically Bill Clinton and Al Gore and NAFTA and its devastating effect on American and now Mexican workers. Thanks Al. Nice to see you've got 'religion' and are pushing that new found faith with the same visual tools (though through film rather than a video debate).
As for a tax on non-renewable energy, where ever it may be placed within the hierarchy of its extraction-usage, I don't think there's anything the Republicans would like more than for Democrats to push for taxes on energy. Then the painful effects could be blamed on the Democrats in endless streams of histrionic sound bytes just prior to elections.
Your suggestion of an energy tax to cover the costs of the various wars the Republicans are having us fight (LOL! I originally wrote "Republicans are fighting." What a joke!) would never be passed. Having the sacrifice of a war be instantly apparent rather than put off for years when it could be blamed on other things (like bboomers retiring and living the high life off of the rest of Americans' hard work - even though they've pre-paid for their old age stipends thanks to Reagan and Greenspan) is the last thing Republicans would allow. This is a war to save America from the evil masses of crazed Islamo - whatever word of the week - ists and there's no sacrifice the Constitution can't make. But take a dime out of the pocket of average Americans while they're looking? Got to have some distraction.
If we had real leaders that truly cared about America (laugh again - and not the Al Gore types that may have found the true and just path - or may have found the new angle for the next NAFTA) then we'd have an "Apollo Project" for renewable energy sources and transportation and mechanization systems. It would have to be government run. It isn't that we've seen the disasters that are "privatized" systems - health care, Blackwater USA, Haliburton, ... - but we've already lived the route of allowing the corporations of the world to take the initiative. In the '70s at the height of the oil embargoes when massive shifts were being made in America - smaller more fuel efficient cars, etc. all the alternative energy technologies were quickly bought out by the existing energy interests (oil companies) and given the "electric car" treatment. This was long before the current movie about GM's cancelled and crushed electric car. You like to use the term "rent," which I still haven't quite caught the hang of, but that GM's electric cars could not actually be bought and owned but only "rented" enabled the total destruction of what might have been a promising technology seed.
An Apollo Project to find the next generation of energy that will drive the future - but we've only got thieves and scam artists calling the shots (literally). Unfortunately it will likely take a massive wide scale disaster (that you imply) before we see the light, but then that sight and insight may be just before we go under for the last time.
September 20, 2006 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think he was being ironic and pointing out that one of the arguments against Gore's proposals back in 2000 was that they would cause gas prices to be too high.
The way I read his post is that we are paying the same amount now that we would be paying but the extra $$$ go to the things you are talking about rather than the usefull things the tax could be doing.
September 20, 2006 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
This post was sarcasm pointed at right wingers who babbled something similar back in 2000.
September 20, 2006 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would think "near" means post Nov 8.
September 20, 2006 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am curious about your hydrologic theory of the effects of global warming.
In my gradual and desultory, "good citizen" self-education on the subject, I have seen three scenarios proposed.
1.) Sea-level rise;
2.) Ecological collapse as the pace of climate change outpaces the ability of ecologies to migrate or evolve, and a general species die-off begins;
3.) Increases in the extremeties of weather: more powerful hurricanes, more torrential rainfall/flooding events.
with the additional caveat that the migration of climate bands northward might trigger events, which will further accelerate the dumping of CO2 and methane into the atmosphere beyond the pace dictated by increasing human population from 6 to 10 billion and growth in fossil fuel use: the Amazon rainforest may die in a drought or Siberian peat bogs might melt, releasing phenomenal quantities of methane.
When you refer to hydrology, are you referring to an aspect of 2.) above, or a separate phenomena?
September 20, 2006 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Looks like California has launched the aforementioned law suit.
Stirling Newberry http://www.bopnews.com
September 20, 2006 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
"What mass migrations we see, such as that of Central Americans into the U.S. are more due to man made calamities facilitated by brilliant Power Point presentations by our leaders. Specifically Bill Clinton and Al Gore and NAFTA and its devastating effect on American and now Mexican workers. Thanks Al. Nice to see you've got 'religion' and are pushing that new found faith with the same visual tools (though through film rather than a video debate)."
There has been migration across the current border area for much longer than NAFTA. NAFTA has hurt areas the most which are farthest from the US.
Stirling Newberry http://www.bopnews.com
September 20, 2006 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fatal flaw in your arguement is that Industrial societies can somehow survive WITHOUT massive amounts of fossile fuels.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to believe that Americans could reduce our dependance on oil by 90% over the next ten years, but I am not a feeble-minded imbiclie! Yes, we can save some energy by using hybrid vehicles, solar heating, and wind power. But the harsh reality is that the U.S., Europe, South America, Australia, Africa, Russia, India, and especially China which is a close second to America, which hugely depends on fossil fuels for about 80% of our fuel comsumpton! And that consumption is projected to increase by 50% in the next 10 years!
Sure, we can live in a fantasy world in which we can imaging a reduction on oil dependance will happen, but every historical and projected model shows that will not happen--period! Why not live in the REAL world and try to approach our problems with REAL answers?
The U.S. has enough oil to supply our needs for at least 100+ years, IF we would be willing to extract it from the earth in and around our national parks. particularly in Alaska Unfortunately, the eco-terorists are fighting tooth-and-nail so that we must continuse to be dependant on middle-East oil! If they would stop the terroristic protests, we could provide OUR OWN oil which would stop our dependance on Mid-East oil. Thus freeing us from supporting the fanatical, bloody Islamo-Facsist terrorists who attack us and our Democratic allies in the Mid-East.
But, since most of the liberal, progressive, left-wing eco-terrorists are in sympathy with the anti-American terorist forces who wish to destroy the United States, it is unlikely that they will ever support their own country and agree to help our own government and economy. More likely, they will solidly continue to support the anti-American terrorist groups that attack and kill Americans across the world and support anarchy and severe violence against America and American interists!
September 21, 2006 2:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
"The fatal flaw in your arguement is that Industrial societies can somehow survive WITHOUT massive amounts of fossile fuels."
Sure they can. In fact, the LCA of carbons is going to cross the LCA of non-carbon energy sometime in the next generation.
Stirling Newberry http://www.bopnews.com
September 21, 2006 5:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
The point is that the water cycle mediates temperature, I think. Or put another way, any energy input, whether increased insolation or increased heat-trapping, will show up most obviously in the behavior of the water/weather system.
September 21, 2006 5:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is ironic is my libertarian/conservative engineer friend using phrases like "getting away from single-source energy" while this person stays head-down in the sand.
And what happens after that 100 years--total collapse? Nice prospect.
Two fundamentals are perhaps not known to UnaHomer---the amount of solar energy falling on the planet in one day is roughly equivalent to the power consumed over one year. Lots of room for maneuver there.
The other fact absent from UnaHomer's reflexive rejectionism is that in any area with available groundwater or lake, there is a huge bank of heat and cooling in that water. So buildings and houses (some of which are already using these systems) get their heat in winter from the water by concentrating it with a heat pump, and use it for dumping heat in summer. The latter increases efficiency of air conditioning tremendously.
Una is also unaware of new tricks like recently announced bacterial mods that allow them to digest trash into biodiesel. Or that it is only a matter of time before we find the best system for digesting trash into alcohol. The latter means we can grow corn make alcohol from the leftovers.
September 21, 2006 5:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't get me wrong. I'm not unaware that some day we will be forced to stop using fossil fuels when they all run out. There is no doubt about that. My argument is why not buy ourselves more time by extracting vast untapped reserves of our own American oil giving us at least several more decades to come up with better alternative solutions.
There are many viable alternative energy sources right now that may supplement fossil fuels, but I don't believe our society or the rest of the industrial world will be able to come close to keeping up our present standard of living and economic growth with today's alternative energy sources.
Huge factories, manufacturing plants, and transportation systems use much more energy than consumers could ever save by driving a hybrid car or making their house cost-free with solar or wind power!
When the oil and coal runs out, these manufacturing and transportation systems will be converted to alternative energy sources, but with anything short of nuclear power they will have to scale WAY down and production will be reduced to a miniscule size of what it is today. That's simply economic reality.
Example: For a 25000 ton super cargo freighter to carry goods from Taiwan to America, solar cells would have to be many times larger than the ahip itself! Or for that same ship to be powered with ethanol, it would take thousands of acres of corn to supply fuel for just one voyage! Or if all large commercial ships were converted to nuclear power, what will we do with the waste? Today there are hundreds of such vessels runnung across the Pacific daily! This is just one example of the need for much more research and time needed to find better solutions.
In a future without fossil fuels, we will have to completely restructure our whole economy and way of life. Why not drill out our own oil, stop supporting Arabs by paying them billions of dollars just so they can turn around and use the money to murder Western infadels, keep our country running for another century while we continue to swith over to alternative energy sources and find new ones that will work on a large-scale basis?
And finally, I've said it before and I will say it again: most Americans are not ready or willing to give up their present standard of living for ANYTHING unless forced to do so. Even as gasoline went over $3 per gallon this year, sales of 300+ horsepower luxury sports cars continues to rise! Like I said in my original comment "I would love to believe Americans could reduce oil consumption by 90% in the next 10 years," but we all know it ain't gonna happen!
September 21, 2006 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re: Sure, we can live in a fantasy world in which we can imaging a reduction on oil dependance will happen, but every historical and projected model shows that will not happen--period!
Any "historical model" done 400 years ago would have suggested mass famine long before the world's population reached one billion.
The future is under no obligation whatsoever to obey the past.
September 21, 2006 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
If my arithmetic is right (I did it a few times) a very large crude carrier such as one I found via Google uses 97 metric tons of fuel oil per day, which is something over 26,ooo gallons, which is equivalent to about a million KW/hr.
Assuming eight hours of useful sunlight (and battery storage), a solar panel system generating 125,000 KW would add up to that million. Given 20% efficency from the solar panels one would need five times 125,000, or 625,000 square meters of solar generating capacity. Sounds like a lot, but is a little more than half a square kilometer, or let's say 5 kilometers long and 100 meters wide.
If the crude carrier, which is over 300 meters long, towed a solar array, it could run on sun alone.
More likely it would use a compact liquid fuel, but this could be partly loaded at departure and topped off at a floating solar station that manufactured alcohol or other liquid-fuel energy-capturing technique.
If you read the specs for the new Tesla sports car, you will find you can charge it up for a 50-mile commute in eight hours with a 6 ft. x 9 ft. solar panel. This car can do 0-60 mph in less than 4 seconds. Not much of a sacrifice.
An engineer measured the paper-trash output of his three-flat and calculated that if the cellulose could be digested by yeast into alcohol it would yield 15 gallons per week.
Instead of expecting only a decline in living standard we should be expecting fantastic new liberating technologies. Just like the desktop computer and cellphone liberated individuals to act on a worldwide stage like the big boys, distributed power generation and storage will empower individuals and free them from dependence on a brittle power grid.
I will mention again the fact that somewhere between 300 and a thousand times the world's total energy consumption falls as sunlight. About 1/10 of that is consumed by plants, leaving lots of room. Where is the dreaded collapse of living standard? Only if our country lets others take the lead and we end up buying technology from others.
September 21, 2006 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re: the Amazon rainforest may die in a drought
This at least is highly unlikely, because every past incidence of global warming in geological history had led to an increase in rainfall, especially in the tropics, but by and large over the whole globe. It is cooling epochs which have produced mass droughts (the tropical rain forests for example survived only in isolated areas favored by local sources of water during the Ice Ages; much of the Amazon was prairie grassland). To be sure, there may be very localized areas of increased aridity, just as some local areas may actually see cooler temperatures, but over any sufficiently large enough region average rainfall will indeed increase.
September 21, 2006 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's assume you are right and that new technology will solve some of what seem intractable problems at some point in the future. The question remains what do we do while we are waiting for the solutions to arrive? For energy:
1. We can continue to live as presently and assume that a solution will be found "in time".
2. We can give ourselves some additional breathing room by making modest adjustments to our lifestyles (ethanol, for example).
3. We can plan for a worst case scenario and take drastic action even while world raw materials continue to be widely available.
For the environment:
1. We can assume that climate changes are natural and/or manageable with modest changes.
2. We can take steps to slow the rate of change.
3. We can take steps to reverse the causes of climate change.
4. We can combine any of these with steps to ameliorate the expected changes.
For the fuel issue, option 1 is favored by the energy companies. Option 2 seems to be the current theme of Dems like Gore and Obama. Only a handful of pessimists like me favor option 3.
For the climate change issue, option 1 is also favored by the industrial sector and most governments. Option 2 is the new Gore talking point (a "freeze" on CO2 emission increases). Option 3 is also not on the table except for a small group of environmentalists.
Finally option 4 is also not being considered. If it were then rebuilding steps along the Gulf Coast would not be proceeding as they are. Similarly steps to depopulate coast areas everywhere in the world woud be in the planning stage.
Doing nothing or doing little has great appeal, it causes the least amount of disruption (which causes angry voters), it requires no thought from politicians or business leaders and it leaves the problems to the future when all of us will be dead.
--- Policies not Politics
Daily Landscape
September 22, 2006 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/08/amazonian-drought/
September 22, 2006 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
The reason I emphasize the monetary payoff and freedom of local power generation and alternate energy sources is because it's so much more appealing. It does not say "live poor", nor does it say "live rich while you can".
As I emphasize, given that energy input to the planet far exceeds our capacity to use it up there should be no worry about reduced living conditions. Surely if we grow to arbitrarily large population we will use up various resouces, like land and fresh water, so some limits on growth pertain. Energy consumption is not a limit for a very long time. It will approach a limit when we need land area that begins to infringe on agriculture and fishing, but that is very far away, and is not a definite limit, as fossil resources are.
Surely we will eventually be harvesting solar energy in space, where the sun is always shining. There is no need for that for the near future, though.
Illinois is scheduled to have roughly 700 million gallons/yr. of ethanol production in a year or so. These will not impinge heavily on feed corn production because the remaining solids after fermentation are useful for cattle feed. Even using the relatively inefficient corn source replacing our gasoline consumption would take only something like 20% of agricultural corn, and there is unused land, not in set-asides, (I understand) that is merely not worth it right now to plant.
Sodium borohydrate has been shown as a very appealing method for containing hydrogen and delivering it to combustion engines or fuel cells. Stored as a soluble salt, and non-flammable (although caustic) it is passed over a catalyst and hydrogen bubbles off for use as fuel. The sodium borohydrate is captured to be re-charged.
So an offshore solar farm, floating on the ocean, and as large as one wants, will use solar electricity to split hydrogen, add it to the sodium salts, and it will get piped onshore to distribution terminals. Used sodium salts get piped out to the solar farm.
Where's the problem? Only industrial inertia and bought politicians that protect existing industry.
September 22, 2006 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
The advances in transport engineering continue, and continue to be outside the US.
Honda has unveiled new designs, including fully flex-fuel engines for the Brazil market, and a super-clean diesel for California. Also new is a fuel-cell project.
Instead of forcing open markets for our obsolete products we could simply make better stuff.
September 25, 2006 6:21 AM | Reply | Permalink