I don't think anti-semitism or anti-Jewishism ever left the West, it just went underground and got a lot less violent. However, you'd probably find a lot of people who harbor the same stereotypical views that anti-semites always have held although they probably keep it to themselves or within a tight circle of family or friends.

Sen Makaka is a caricature of himself. While watching bits of the debate yesterday, I almost felt bad for him.

Many American Jews have subconsciously bought into the view that US unconditional support of Israel, right or wrong, MUST mean antisemitism is a thing of the past. Never mind that polls after polls show there's more antisemitism in the US than in many countries of Europe. (Check the last few by Pew.) The myth is that America has pockets of antisemitism among African-Americans and that's about it. How convenient! I've got news for you: try to join a boat club in Stockbridge, Mass, while Jewish. Go talk to those Christian zionists down south while Jewish and find out what they really think about you.
Painting the US as the last bastion of anti-antisemitism has been strategically important for the likes of AIPAC. Notice that AIPAC will excuse any act of antisemitism on US soil but go ballistic elsewhere. What a crock!

You are right. Charging anti-semitism these days is a tactic used to keep politicians from discussing the Mideast in an intelligent way.
Knee-jerk Israel "supporters" like Allen get a pass even if they seem bigoted.
To put it simply. Jesse Jackson is the bad anti-semitic Jesse. Jesse Helms is the good "pro-Israel" Jesse.
Of course, that is precisely backwards.

Sad to say I don't know HTML and TPM doesn't like running those long links.

This latest follows his lie about his use of the term macaca and the revelation that he is nostalgic for the Confederacy.
Context is everything. And the context surrounding Allen will elect Webb.

Skin color is utterly irrelevant to anything. But imagine if a candidate was asked if his grandmother was African American and he reacted with horror.
Or, for that matter, Irish or Italian.
It speaks ill of anyone if they cannot simply say, "yes, my dad was Jewish (or Irish or Italian or whatever) but I simply consider myself an American."
We are the product of our ancestry, whether we like it or not.
Anyway being "American" is as arbitrary a construct as any other ethnic characteristic. Perhaps we should say, "I live on American soil but am of no particular faith, heritage, ethnicity, race...."
Sounds pretty ridiculous.
Allen's track record on matters of race is pretty unsavory even without his horror at being perceived as a Jew.

If you don't know html, just click "enable rich-text" below the "Comment" box.

Everyone at the debate booed the question. Allen's horror was not at being perceived Jewish, but at the tone and timing of the question.

Imagine if she'd ask, "Did you ever date a black girl?"

It doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response. This is not rocket science -- are you being purposefully obtuse?

Here's a link to the clip, via Kos

I don't see what other choice there is--either Allen thinks his heritage is somehow shameful, or that it will weaken his position among his confederate flag loving base.

Embracing his heritage is the default response by a politician. Generally, the more mixed the better, though african heritage can be a problem. It's true that the question was weird and inappropriate, but Allen's reaction was also weird and inappropriate. IMO anyway. Watch the clip and judge for yourself.

Allen's horror was not at being perceived Jewish, but at the tone and timing of the question.

I certainly don't see the clip that way, although I agree with the sentiment.

It doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response.

That would have been a reasonable answer on his part. The point is that his responses was weird, and does lead to a suspicion that he is either ashamed of his background, or thinks it will hurt him politically. If he wasn't gonna say "this doesn't deserve a response" then he should have just said that he is proud of his heritage, and, yes, his maternal grandfather did derive his heritage (according to Forward) from oppressed Portuguesan Jews. What's the big deal here?

Imagine if she'd ask, "Did you ever date a black girl?"

As people pointed out in the last thread on this issue, Allen would not have reacted angrily and charged the moderator with "making aspersions" had he been asked about his Christian faith. He would've leapt at the chance to profess his undying fealty to the Bible and Jesus.

Allen had already talked about his "heritage" in response to questions about his Confederate flags. He had talked about his grandfather spending time in a concentration camp.

I assume Allen will win. As Spiro Agnew understood, the "silent majority" is very often racist.

o

If you want to experience antisemitism in this country, just tell people you have the fine old Irish name of Israel. :-)

At least my Irish acquaintance claimed it was an ancient Irish name.

I am surprised that you have experienced no prejudice. Might be partly a matter of age. Once I sprang the news on my future father-in-law, who believed the corpses of all those Jews in concentration camps were papier-mache, that the big bankers in this country weren't Jews. I quickly learned they were by definition. [sigh]

It is really heartening to learn that you have had no bad experiences from the most ancient and widespread bigotry of them all.

Best, Terry

You are right. Race and ethnicity are insane constructs in the world we live in.
Taking pride in one's ethnicity is pretty retro but so is taking pride in being American.
We are who we are. We have no choice in the matter.
That is why it drives me nuts when people say America is "the greatest country in the world."
My response: indeed it is. For Americans. Frankly, I could live without ethnic and national chauvinism of any kind.
And, right now, watching what Americans have done to Iraq, I am not exactly waving any flags.

I think anti-semitism is coming back. Or maybe it never left. I say maybe because I've never encountered it in my life, even growing up in a town where there were five Jews in my high school class and never once did I hear any kind of slur.

-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

I think there's lots of evidence for the BOTH moron and anti-semite vote here.

To clarify what I meant by "when someone asks if you're a Jew", I didn't mean to imply that Virginians or for that matter, Allen supporters are anti-semites or go around Mel Gibson-like inquiring as to religious status. Its just that I've heard that question asked (by one gentile to another) where the meaning was clearly an anti-semitic slur.

Its by no means something that most people (VIrginians or otherwise) would say, but the way the audience started booing, its like they were conditioned to hear any similar question (even without an anti-semitic element) as a put-down.

I've been well aware of the resurgence of anti-Semitism for some time, much of it coming from the left. You wonder why some Jews have in recent years aligned themselves with conservative Christians, and I wonder why Jews such as yourself, continue to align yourselves with the left, apologists for the Jews worst enemies; the islamists.

This is what is so great about the American political process. It may not be perfect but it does have the capability of outing those unqualified by reason of irrationality, perfidy, or stupidity.

Sam Thornton

By gum that's true!

And once they're outed, they're enthusiastically voted into office.

Who's "the left"?

Dissent Protects Democracy.

Before I start, let me make one thing clear -- I find Allen an abhorrent politician and person. I have friends from NC who still fly the Confederate flag, but they do so in more of a "screw the Yankees" way than anything to do with race. I still oppose flying it, because of the horrible connotations it has for black Americans, which have far less to do with slavery and far more to do with the Klan's use of it as a signal and the display of it during lynchings. But to have a Californian who's not really from Virginia embrace it the way he has is beyond creepy. I fear Allen's presidential candidacy, because he's every bit as morally bankrupt as Bush in allowing himself to be a tool for corporate greed, but unlike Bush, seems to actually embrace the hatemongers that skulk in the darkest corners of the GOP.

All that said, I completely agree with I.Plurbis in this regard. I finally had a chance to watch the YouTube clip from the debate, and while Allen largely got his backside handed to him by Jim Webb (who could make one of the best additions to the Senate in years), his response to this boneheaded question made me want to stand up and cheer. It was the stupidest kind of "gotcha" question, and his indignant response was absolutely correct in both tone and content. She was trying to put him in some kind of bind -- embracing his Jewish ancestry was somehow supposed to make him less of a Christian, and denying it would make him seem somehow anti-Semetic.

Other posters have said, "how is this different than if he'd been asked about his Christian heritage?" Simple: Allen was raised Christian. In the Christian faith, conversion is all that matters, ethnicity matters not. In Judaism, on the other hand, ethnicity matters quite a bit, depending on the degree of orthodoxy followed. If Allen self-identified as Jewish, but had a Christian grandfather, this question would be beyond ridiculous. As it is, it's just ridiculous.

And frankly, I find Clark's "I have so much in common with you," or worse, Kerry's "Golly gee, I'm a Jew!" speech from 2003 far more pandering and odious than this. I fail to see how having Jewish grandparents is remotely important if you grew up singing "Onward Christian Soldiers," if you never ate matzah ball soup or latkes, never went to a Yom Kippur break fast, and go to a Baptist church on a regular basis. In this sense, the idiot reporter might as well have asked him whether his grandfather was Irish, and whether that made a difference in the election. Even implying that it should is, utterly and quite frankly, racist.

I still hope the bastard loses. But for once he was right.

I thought the really interesting part of Allen's reaction to the reporter's question was regarding the relevance of the question but he chose not to stick with that point. While I don't think it should be a problem at all that he has Jewish or Islamic or Martian ancestors for that matter, the way the question was asked did come off to me as offensive---as though he were being accused of trying to hide something. But he should have stuck with the question of relevance in my opinion because it really is not at all a relevant question. Who cares? What difference does it make? Remember that the same sort of thing was brought up about John Kerry in 2000. Now, it seems more than a trifle odd to me that Allen lived all these years and had no idea he was part Jewish. If he was hiding his heritage it's just sad and pathetic really and no more. But the truth is that the religious right as well as plenty of other non-Jews are bigots and they don't like Jews just because they are Jews. There's no question about that. So there's plenty of motivation for a man with ambitions in the right wing Republican Party to want to hide this tidbit about himself.

I agree with you, and I also think describing his reaction as "freaking out," "going nuts," etc, is not right. He was irritated and annoyed, and what is wrong with showing emotion, anyway?

 The questioner used the word, "Jew" (not Jewish) as if she WAS accusing him of something, and I felt she was baiting him. "Come on, we know there is a Jew in your background..." was the tenor of the question. If anyone was antisemitic, it was she.

People can argue all night long about the concept of using Jewishness as an accusation, but I think it has to do with what you said about it being a maternally inherited ethnicity rather than a belief. I am not a Christian, but if I were a Jesus-believer, and someone was hounding me to admit that I belong to a religion that does not believe in Jesus as the son of god, it would rankle me too.

I am from Virginia, and I can tell you George Allen is at best a boob, and at worst another politician who would be a complete nobody without a famous father. He was a terrible governor, and he is really not smart.

In honesty, however, I felt he was right in his response to the stupid reporter who was trying to get a rise out of him for something that TRULY is irrelevent, and none of her business.

 Jan Knaus

Martinez, dont assume that just because your generation is less racist than its predecessor, the next will be even less so. As a student of history I can assure you it`s not a progression, but a pendulem. And I`m afraid I feel it swinging back.

Here you go, courtesy joshtpm.

Had Gadya to you!

I like your point. I was born to parents who are both of mixed heritages and assorted religions. All four of their children have different colored eyes, there's a green, a rainbow hazel, a blue and I got the brown eyes. The hair is all different too and we all have it's and bits of great grandparents all mixed up. We're not children that look like all peas from the same pod.

I don't have enough digits on my bod to count all the countries and religions that have incluenced my physical and social ancestry. What am I? I'm an American Melting Pot Mutt. I'm not anything enough to say I'm a something-american. It blows pollsters minds. But someday, and I hope that day is sooner, that we start to drop our heritage from our polling identification and we can start to say Melting-Pot American.

United we stand. Our needs as people to divide ourselves into classes and groups is getting too out of hand. It's very destructive to the growth of our American culture.

mr rosenberg,

george allen once had a noose on display in his office. what more need be said about him? i think he was playing to the audience reaction which probably was obvious to him before audible boos were obvious on the tape.

but i would like to explain the matter of the booing. the south is obsessed with matters of race--it is literally black and white. the south, however, has little consciousness or interest in ethnicity, basically because there was not widespread immigration to the south around 1900. there just aren't many ethnic communities so it doesn't become a fixture of thinking.

for that and other reasons (most synagogues are reform, most jews in the south are not from central and easthern europe) jewishness is preceived by almost everyone as religious, not ethnic.

what the audience heard was someone being asked about the religious conversion of his grandfather and his mother--and it would not matter if they converted from catholicism or from pentacostalism--you cannot ask about someone's mother and grandfather in that way in public in the south. especially not their mother. not ever. it's absolutely taboo. you cannot ask people in the south to explain their parents or grandparents in public. not white southerners. not black southerners. not even most black northerners in fact.

there may indeed be a rise in antisemitism in the u.s.--i fear that there is--but i'm sure most of the people booing on the tape were not antisemites.

Feed 'em a lot of spinach salad and hope for the best.

Kingston. Ulster County.
No anti-semitism. I was not home schooled.
According to the most recent American Jewish Committee poll, two-thirds of Jews in the 50 states have not experienced any instance of anti-semitism over the past year.

Do I think it doesn't exist. No. But behind closed doors which is alot better than the hate African Americans, Arab-Americans, gays and other groups experience.

Nah, I think he's just an all purpose bigot.

Give some examples of anti-semitism that is a part of the left/progressive agenda. I challenge you to do that with honesty.

The best way I could answer your challenge is to point you to this great symposium on the net conducted by FRONTPAGEMAG.COM:

Symposium: Anti-Semitism - the New Call of the Left

FrontPageMagazine.com | March 14, 2003

Introduction:

Contemporary empirical realities demonstrate one undeniable fact: anti-Semitism is no longer associated prominently with the Right. Instead, the primary source of the hatred of Jews now emanates from the Left. In fact, anti-Semitism has evolved into a cultural code and even a rallying cry for progressive radicals throughout the world. This reality is perfectly illustrated by contemporary efforts to pressure Western universities and institutions to divest from financial holdings in Israel.

What explains this phenomenon of growing Leftist anti-Semitism? Why has contempt for Jews become the mantle of Leftist politics – or was it actually always the case, but just more subtle? To discuss these and other aspects of Leftist anti-Semitism with us today, Frontpage Symposium has aligned a distinguished panel of experts. Our guests today are Michael Lerner, the editor of Tikkun magazine, www.tikkun.org, rabbi of Beyt Tikkun synagogue in S.F., and author of eight books including The Politics of Meaning, Spirit Matters: Global Healing and the Wisdom of the Soul, and most recently Healing Israel/Palestine; Judith Klinghoffer, a senior associate scholar at the Political Science Department at Rutgers University, Camden, and the author of Vietnam, Jews and the Middle East; Leonard Dinnerstein, a professor of American history and director of the Judaic Studies Program at the University of Arizona. He is also the author of America and the Survivors of the Holocaust and Antisemitism in America; and Jonathan Kay, the editorials editor of the National Post who has written extensively on anti-Semitism and the academic Left.(jkay@nationalpost.com)

See the whole symposium at: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6651

Frontpagemag... no bias or agenda there.

I have never seen any evidence of Anti-Semitism on the left, recently. I have heard complaints about a Neo-Con movement dominated by Jews persuing wars by proxy for the state of Israel--but that is hardly anti-semitic--more like, anti-bamboozlement, anti-folly.

My perception of the audience at Tyson's, booing the question put to Allen, was that it was like the moment when John Kerry pointed out that Dick Cheney's daughter was a confirmed lesbian. That these are a political hot potatos in Allen's, and Cheney's constituency. Who is a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist, more likely to identify with, and vote for: Allen, or Webb? How about an evangelical Christian: Cheney or Kerry? There are meta-language messages being sent here on all levels--and of course confusion is the outcome...

George Allen's reaction to the question reminded me of the Dave Chappelle sketch where the head of the KKK just discovers his own African-American heritage. I mean, his body language spoke volumes about who he is pretending to be.

"If you talk about it, even the simplest thing becomes complex and incomprehensible." -Herman Hesse

It may be useful to phrase the question as opposition to, or at least criticism of, the State of Israel (or, if you prefer, Zionism) as opposed to Jews throughout the world.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

It is useful to separate Zionism from Judaism, since not all Jews, whether you want to use a standard of belief or descent, necessarily support the State of Israel.

I'm rather dubious about rights of national self-determination, be they Basque or Rhade. As Clemenceau once put it, "must every little language have its own country?"

In the US, many years ago, I saw some neighborhood bullies beating a boy because he, an American citizen, was Jewish. I dived in, took a few lumps, but had enough anger and skill to drive them off. That was defending one of my own fellow citizens. I don't have the same loyalty to someone in Haifa.

If the goal of self-determination of any people is antithetical to the rational foreign policy interests of the United States, that group certainly can defend its land without interference. There is something fundamentally wrong with, however, the US...oh...supplying the Chechens, or Quebec Separatists, or any of a number of movements to self-determination.

Foreign alliances are generally about what you've done for me recently. Israel was an extremely good source of Soviet technical intelligence during the Cold War.

I don't necessarily support the right of particular Arab groups to self-determination, when it may go down to the fine-grained level of different Arab religious practice or ethnicity. So no, I don't say that Zionists have an equal right to self-determination as do Sunni vs. Shi'a Arabs in Iraq. Yes, I did say Zionists, as I reject the concept that all Jews are necessarily supporters of Israel.

I do question the extent to which the US supports Israel in what may be questionable foreign policy or military operations operations, especially when the latter approaches collective punishment or the lack of due regard to avoiding civilian casualties, when Israel has but doesn't choose to use more precise weapons.

And "we" haven't mentioned Naziism before you brought it up.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Please correct me if I misinterpret the material to which you link, but looking at, for example, the introduction to the 2006 repors, I get a sense of, for want of a better name, left-radicalism. I don't exactly think of Marcuse as mainstream liberalism.

Now, if "the left" is radical/progressive, we've at least defined terms. I don't know where a European-style social democrat should go, or US voters that are not operating on the theory that the entire society needs to be redone.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Your American nationalism is striking. What in God's name makes American nationalism any more palatable than that of any other group. Your dismissal of small nations' national movements reminds me of the British Foreign Office in, say, 1917.
In the wake of what this country has done and is doing to the world, a little humility might be in order, not that humility is an American national trait.
I'm glad that you fought for that guy because he was a "fellow citizen" not a Jew.
Methinks you are a tad obsessed with not being thought of as Jewish. I promise you. You aren't Jewish. Don't worry about it.
Fight to the death for your fellow citizens if you so choose although, strange to say, your language doesn't sound especially American. Who in this counrry talks about our fellow citizens.
And I know that all Jews aren't supporters of Israel. I also know that ALL JEWS are considered such by those who hate ALL JEWS.

Howard,

It is useful to separate Zionism from Judaism, since not all Jews, whether you want to use a standard of belief or descent, necessarily support the State of Israel.

One more time.  "Useful" for what?  For example, would it be similarly "useful" to separate anti-Arab racism from forms of anti-Arab nationalism?  And for what purpose(s)?

Since he's a Republican he's a racist, remember the rule. If a Democrat had said it, it would have just been an "off color" remark.

This is an occasion that I sometimes curse the limitations of this electronic medium, even though it's one of my major professional interests. I wish we could be seeing one anothers' faces and hearing the tones of each others' voices.

It is my fond hope, not an egotistical hope, that your comment above means that I may have communicated, successfully, part of what it means to me to be an American. It was in 1956, as I remember, when my mother, one of her colleagues and role models, and I decided to spend the summer trying to visit every state (my mother had a weird fascination with that, but I still haven't been to Maine).

It was a hot day, and, when we stopped for gas, having just entered the deep South, I went to get a drink of water. There were two fountains, one marked "white" and the other marked "colored". As a Yankee boy, I had never seen anything like this. I looked at my skin, and decided it was mostly tan with pinkish blotches, certainly not the color of typing paper. So, I wandered over to the "colored" fountain, at which moment my mother and her colleague swooped on me, saying "Don't make trouble".

I was utterly mystified on why the water fountain I used could make trouble. Later, of course, I learned. Two wise women explained the consequences as we drove off. My mother's friend was among the most wise, just, intelligent and humane people I have ever known. She was the director of the Newark (NJ) schools department of social work, where my mother was chief consulting social worker [Note 1].

I learned, as we talked and drove, that this wonderful person, in some peoples' minds, was some sort of subhuman, because she had lovely, smooth, purplish-black-brown skin. My mother was pale and never did get rid of her acne.

So when I speak of my fellow citizens, I think of someone like those two women, and now, with the perspective of age and historical knowledge, think of how much was wasted by racism. I look to subsaharan Africa, and see the waste because some slaughtered child with a genius intelligence was Hutu, was Ibo, was Xhosa. I look to Sudan, and see both Muslim killing Muslim in Darfur, and yet the truly amazing reconciliation between the Nuer and Dinka peoples. Apropos of the latter, while the reconciliation process started in the late 90s, with Christian mediators to animist tribes, and think of pictures of the Wunlit conference, as chiefs of one tribe washed the feet of humble members of the other,. Later,when the then-Arab central government launched ethnic cleansing of oil areas, I saw traditional enemies open their homes and hearts to one another.

One of the joys I have in my work in Internet core engineering is that the Internet is the closest human realization of Martin Luther King's dream of a colorblind future for his children. I think you and I both have our pictures in our bios, but, more often than not, I've formed working relationships and deep friendships with people I interacted with electronically for years before I met them.

So yes, I speak of my fellow citizens. I think of my friend Chris, an evangelical Baptist with whom I had squabbled theologically for years, and the day we realized that while we got to ideas of social justice through totally different paths, we tended to agree on the solution most of the time. I do have mixed feelings about my friend Bill, not because he's of Chinese ancestry but that I damn near drown every time I go swim laps with him, reminding myself that it is stupid to compete with a college varsity athlete in his own sport, a couple of decades later. I think of my colleague Sheri, and her scientific insight, and I give my Medusa glare to those who don't take her seriously simply because she could have climbed off the cover of Cosmopolitan.

I celebrate the unification in America, and of course there's room for improvement. I've run into street crime, and, as a would-be mugger felt his arm break just before he passed out, that his actions, not his ethnicity, caused my reactions. Actually, it was pretty dark and I didn't really know his ethnicity, nor care. Oh, I suppose I should have immobilized him and called the police, but I suspect that when he woke up, he was just a little less likely to make stereotypical assumptions about middle-aged men in preppie clothes.

You speak of the British Foreign Office in 1917, but I think of a context where no one is worried about someone being a Wily Oriental Gentleman, or not of Our Class. I get rather annoyed with people who see labels, not people.

[Note 1] They tossed a coin as to who would be the director, and my mother won.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Howard,

Useful in formulating the foreign policy of the United States, which seems especially concerned with the support of Zionism, whether or not the actions of the Israeli government are beneficial to the interest of the United States. It is also useful in not attributing mixed loyalties to American citizens.

Are some circumstances of Jewish identity contingent upon real or imagined demonization?  Help me understand.  You seem to be saying that it is useful to distinguish Jews from Zionists so Jews won't be attacked in the United States for dual loyalties or for the possibility of supporting foreign policies at odds with genuine interests of the United States.  Do I get it?

"Actually, Jews worst enemies are on the Right. Nazis, Fascists, "Islamofascists," the KKK, the survivalist groups in Idaho, etc.">

Actually, Jews worst enemies are ALSO on the Left. Communists. Europeans elites. Israel haters, etc.

Also...

Most Jews vote Democrat because they come from a time and part of Europe where the right-wing was in power, and thus the worst perpetrators of anti-semitism. However, Russian Jews vote overwhelmingly Republican, because they come from a time and part of Europe where the left-wing was in power, and thus the worst perpetrators of anti-semitism. So its not really accurate to say Jews vote Democrat because they think Republicans hate them. Some Jews vote Republican because they think Democrats hate them. To some extent, they are probably both right and both wrong.

There is a definite leftward tilt toward Jewish voting, but I would venture that's because the Democratic Party is more closely attuned to the values of the Jewish religion, which include community and environmentalism (aka Tikkun Olam). Also, there are many issues that drive people to vote Republican which are not issues to Jews. For instance, many Christians vote Republican because they are strongly pro-life, which does not have the same importance in Judaism as an issue.

Skin color is utterly irrelevant to anything.

Really? Are you like that Great Patriot Stephen Colbert, who does not see color?

Who are these many American Jews who have "subconsiously bought into the idea that anti-semitism is a thing of the past in America", or anywhere? None of the Jews I know would ever say such a thing....

Perhaps they are the Jews in Seattle recovering from an attack on the UJF there? Are they the ones who spent considerable time and energy and social capital pointing out the anti-semitism in Passion of the Christ only to see it flourish in theatres across America? Perhaps they're the ones cleaning up regularly after anti-semitic graffiti at their synagogues, or petition again and again to keep Christian programming and prayer out of public schools?

If you are looking for a representative of the Jewish position on anti-semitism in America, may I recommend the UJF or ADL to you, rather than AIPAC, which has really nothing to do with what Jews in America think of anti-semitism.

Otherwise, I really would be interested in where you are making your assertions from - do you have a poll to back you up? Perhaps a study? Have you spoken to anyone in Jewish leadership on this issue?

Of course, Jews have many, many, tremendously great friends in America and all Jews I know are extremely grateful for that. But no anti-semitism? Nah....

Do you really feel its a pendalum? That would imply complete return to the original state of affairs. How depressing...

Perhaps you meant that its two steps forward, one step backward?

We're not headed back to the days of slavery for blacks, gays in the closet, and ghettos for Jews. The KKK is a pale remnant of its former self. You don't think things are, loong term, getting better for minorities in America and around the world?

Two steps forward, one step back, but slow progress is made.

I don't know if you are of an age to remember the Kingston Trio song, "The Merry Minuet", but it was a satirical look of countries hating one another. Bigotry is a reality that won't go away.

As you may have gathered, I am not a wild advocate of national self-determination, as I see no endpoint to fragmentation of countries worldwide. Didn't the Confederate States of America have a right to national self-determination? Are we worse off or better off because that was stopped?

When I ask "which anti-Arab racism", I wasn't asking for what appears to be a metaphor for Israel's situation. I was seriously asking for examples of racism against Arabs, and I cited a few real cases, such as Kurdish and Persian anti-Arab sentiment. I am most familiar with the recently (hopefully) Sudanese civil war, going back to 1955, between the Arab north and the African south. Darfur is another case, where the two major sides are Baqqara Arab nomadic Muslims against Nilotic Fur pastoralist Muslims.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

The question of whether there is or ever was such a thing as an "Arab nation" is a question that has been intensely debated throughout the history of the now flagging Arab nationalist movement. It has even been debated among Arabs themselves. More importantly, even those who do believe strongly that there is such a thing as an Arab nation or Arab people have not all supported the political ideal of Arab Nationalism. To believe a nation exists is not the same thing as believing that the nation should provide the basis for the political organization or reorganization of regions of the globe.

Since Arab nationalism is a political ideology, an ideology that has been a matter of dispute even among Arabs themselves, surely then it is possible for a person to oppose Arab nationalism for reasons other than racial or ethnic hatred of Arabs.

Really good post.

For me, the best part of America is that people can hate you (for your race, sexual identity, religion, or whatever including your personality) but they do not say you aren't an American. Even the worst racist does not challenge a non-white's status as an American. Compare that to any of the European countries, Japan, China, Korea, Israel, Arab countries etc. In all those you have to be of a certain race to fully be part of the country.

Here's what I hate about America: pretty much everything we've done to the so-called Third World since the Spanish-American War.

I celebrate what learn about culture, and, even more, the possibility. One thing I love to cook are fusion cusines, such as Paul Bocuse melding Chinese and Southwest, or the Vietnamse blending of French, Chinese, and local specialties.

There are great mysteries. Why are shamanic principle so consistent across cultures that never touched.

The whole is greater than its parts, if we don't stereotype the parts.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

I like Jewish people. What's not to like? They bleed just like me when they are cut. They cry just like me when they are sad. And... they like to have fun....

Just Like Me.

Allen is a hateful twerp. Moron is too good for him.

CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com

Howard,

I am personally tired of being called anti-semitic because I believe....

And I am personally tired of being called a racist warmonger because I believe Jews deserve the same national dignity as other peoples.  So what....?  Tough it out.

Did I call you that? No.

I will say that I can find no separation between "Jews as a people" and "Jewish state" in your writings, unless you are specifically challenged. I suppose I don't really see the Jews in other than religious terms, and I don't think the Catholics deserve the same national dignity as other people. Religion is an intensely personal choice.

You asked me about specific reasons why I do not conflate Jews with Zionism. I did you the courtesy of giving you some very specific US government examples. You didn't respond at all to them, but just with annoyance on what you might be called. Is that your idea of discussion: asking for examples and then ignoring them?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

What will be the political equivalent of Garo Yepremian running in circles screaming "I throw touchdown?"

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Howard,

Did I call you that? No.

Nor did I call you antisemitic.  Right?

I suppose I don't really see the Jews in other than religious terms....

And I do not limit Jewish identity to its religious component.  What now?

Howard,

I don't have any answers to give you on the subject of Jewish identity in a non-religious context. I'm not opposed to a Zionist state, that I think being the correct term when one thinks in terms other than religious, but I don't see it as a vital interest of the US.

With all due respect, I don't really look to you for such answers.  Not being a Jew yourself, I really can't understand your insistence to establish the limits of Jewish identity.

Where American foreign policy is concerned, I believe the US needs more allies, not fewer.  And that would include the need to work harder to establish alliances with Arab states in addition to, and not at the expense of, the Jewish state.  Not an easy thing to do, but it shouldn't be as difficult as we tend to make it.

I refer to Israel as a Jewish state because Israel is a Jewish state as Qatar is an Arab state, Ireland is a Celtic state and Greece is a Greek state.  I support the establishment of an independent Palestine beside, not instead of, a secure Israel.  I believe it would be right to oppose the establishment of a Chinese Xizang province and would support a revival of Tibet, even as it may risk damaging relations with one of our Most Favored Nations.  And I admit that it perplexes me the extent that the loyalty of American Jews should be suspect due to the alliance between the US and a Jewish state while Greek-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc. can wave the flags of their respective homelands with hardly any notice or concern.

But that's me.  Perhaps you will take comfort in the fact that I am just a guy writing words on a screen rather than anyone's serious policy wonk.

Howard,

A serious question: how large must a group be before they have a national identity in modern terms? Are Liechtenstein and Monaco really nations, or simply tolerated assemblages? What about Quebec? Checniya?

Why not Palestine or Tibet?  Groups with aspirations of establishing their national self-determination (or reestablish, in the case of Israel and Tibet).  Anyone can tell you're no anarchist from your comments on American patriotism above.  So, why are you so passionately compelled to deligitimize peoples' national identities, and conflate them with pseudoscientific notions of race?

Please understand that you are not required to help me understand how a non-Jew like yourself becomes so invested in setting the limits of Jewish identity, but persisting in the behavior seems a trifle maniacal.

I think the Israelis and the Palestinians should give up their nationalism, flags, and state right after the Americans do. Of course, the Pals have yet to have a state.

Jews were in the land of Israel as far back as the Bible (obviously) with the Palestinians (probably descendants of the Canaanites) there just as long.

American nationalism is 230 years old. Just because there are more Americans than Israelis, Irish, Poles, Palestinians, Slovenians or whatever does not make our flag-waving ("we are the greatest nation in the world") domineering nationalism any more valid.

I love living in this country simply because this is where I happen to have been born, as were my parents. But objectively speaking none of the little nationalisms HC puts down have had nearly the pernicious effect on the people of the world than ours.

Hate nationalism all you want. But acting as if
Yankee nationalism is better is chauvinistic, jingoistic and utterly Red State.

No offense intended. But I find the celebration of American nationalism to be strange, especially in the context of what the US is doing to Iraq right now.

Also, I do get a tad worried when self-proclaimed non-Jews are obsessed with Israel while giving a pass to other nations (like this one, for instance) which commits far greater crimes. I don't like Jewish exceptionalism but I don't like it when it is directed at us either.

There are nicer ways to separate onself from the Jews than by trashing us and our belief in our own peoplehood.

One more thing. Loving one's own country is not an ideology. It is as natural as breathing. The American Rockies stir me more than the Canadian Rockies. But making a big tzimmes out of being American strikes me as not especially.... American.

It reminds me of when Popular Front Communists in the 1930's gave speeches in front of giant pictures of Washington and Lincoln. It was to say, we don't love Lenin. We love Lincoln. Yeah right. Of course, those Popular Fronters were mostly Jews, and they weren't bad people, I suppose, but their American-ness was stilted and unnatural. And, although HC is no Communist, Fascist or anything like that, his proclamation of his American citizenship seems equally stilted and sort of "doth protest too much" about his Jewish name, ethnicity, identification, granparents or lack thereof.

American patriotism should not be defined by the absence of Judaism. I'm a Jew. I'm an American. Or, I'll say it in reverse order, I'm an American. I'm a Jew.

I find the dual identity fairly seamless and I think most American Jews (or Jewish Americans) feel the same way.

HC, you seem like a nice guy. But get a grip. If your motto is to offend people, you have certainly succeeded with me.

That's a very fair and reasonable answer. Asking for my own information, with no hidden messages, are there any Palestinians leaders, even exiles, that have discussed this? I suspect it would be a sensitive subject with more fundamental problems to get out of the way first.

How strong are the trade relations between Israel and Egypt? I understand there are some. Could this be a prototype?

African-Asian is touchy. Sudan is into a six-year period befoe a referendum about splitting it into Arab north and African south. East African and Sahel nations don't especially trust Arabs -- but, in some cases, they've gotten significant Israeli support in agricultural technologies and other areas.

Let me throw out one idea I've discussed before, but with a few nuances. As I've mentioned, Sudan is in an interim coalition. It happens most of the proven oilfields are in the south, but the only national refinery is near Khartoum (North) and export terminal at Port Sudan (North).

A German company is speculatively building railroads from South Sudan into Kenya and Uganda. Last time I looked, they were fairly frustrated with Kenyan bureaucracy. Still, if they can get the railroads into Kenya, there's a big lever on Arab Sudan: oil can export by train to the head of the Kenyan pipeline, and go to a refinery and export terminal in Mombasa. At that point, the south needs the north a lot less -- there are still grounds to cooperate, but less critical. AFAIK, there still are excellent relations between Kenya and Israel.

Ethiopia is building out its electrical and telephone system, and it would be a straight-line shot to go into south Sudan. The World Food Programme logistic center is in Uganda, and better transport to it would help Darfur.

If Darfur was secure, another possibility would be to run trains (track exists but isn't secure) into Chad, join the Chad pipeline, and out through Libya, possibly with Libyan refining.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Indeed, who knows, and in a good sense of the phrase. It was GB Shaw, I think, that wrote "Others look at things as they are, and say why? I dream of things that have never been, and say why not?"

And, indeed, what gets in the way of "why not?" Let me try what may be a poor example. I've been very lucky in getting aggressive treatment of heart disease. My father was dead at 42 and effectively disabled for several years before that, while I turned 58 this week and, while I'm due for measurements again, NIH last found my heart working in the low-athletic range.

Now, can I ignore my heart disease? Are the handfuls of pills things that are inherently good? No, although some are preventive.

I think something of the same with respect to continued national self-determination, for various values of nation. Nationalism, simultaneously, is stabilizing and destabilizing. It can't go away, but there are times that I wish people worried less about ethnic stratification and more about being members of the human race.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

To me, at least, what you are saying is contradictory. How can you "love and celebrate diversity" if you can't acknowledge it? If you "don't see it" (it, presumably, being color/religion/sex) then how can you appreciate it?

I would agree we are all God's children, but that similarity does not cause our diversity to cease existing. Saying otherwise would seem to be to be the type of refutation of reality that one finds among Hamas legislators refusing to acknowledge Israel's existence and conservative talking heads on TV, which is why Stephen Colbert caricatures them by saying he, too, "doesn't see it" (it being color/religion/sex).

I presume you are not lumping yourself in with that bunch, but, again, I guess I just don't see where you're coming from.

Let me get this straight: You challenge anybody to give you examples of left-wing/progressive statements of anti-Semitism. And when I give you a definitve web symposium that proves many examples of anti-Semitism from the left. you discard it "out of hand" simply because it is published by people with whom you disagree?

In other words, if people you don't like, or disagree with, quote left-wing progressives verbatim as anti-Semites, you refuse to accept these quotes word for word as quoted, simply because they are given by your political enemies? You actually refuse to accept the truth as reported if it is quoted by anybody with whom you disagree? How pathetic. Why even bother to discuss issues with people of your ilk!

Frank Rich asserted that Iran will be the Spanish American War version 3.0. I assume that Iraq is the SA war version 2.0.

I tend to agree with Mr. Twain about the "original release", and his commentary is very much appropriate now.

CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com