The Republicans, by all but endorsing Lieberman, have made this race important.

If you're an Ind., then, by all rights you can play this however you want. For Joe, against. Whatever. But Democrats need to remember who's the one running against the Democrat in CT.

The more important issue is one of defining just who Dems are, and what we stand for. Strengthening the "movement" is something Dems hardly if do, certainly not in recent memory. There's finally a defining issue on which WE DEMS stand on the side the The People.

What strikes me as funny/ironic/pathetic is that for the last two or three years, we've all been arguing about moderate versus left Dems, and whether following the polls is a good idea, or pandering, etc, etc. Well, here's the most obvious issue, one where whether you follow the polls or follow "the left," the answer is the same -- we need a timetable to withdraw from Iraq. The overwhelming majority of people in this country wants to withdraw from Iraq. Every poll shows that.

So, finally Dems are on the side of the people on the most important issue facing our nation, and we're seriously arguing if we should back the one guy in our party that absolutely, positively doesn't want to leave Iraq?

Seriously???

I need an aspirin...

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We have an open Senate seat in Minnesota and the quality of the debate has been miserable, actually non-existent. Both candidates appear to be trying to hide their party affiliation. The Democrat won't even tell you she is a Democrat on her website.

Seems to me whatever party you're in and whether you are left, right or moderate, this country has serious issues to graple with and we have a political system that is utterly failing to come to grips with major choices.

At least the CT race has had some substance to it and for that alone Americans should thank the netroots.

And where is that Democratic message we were going to hear about someday....? Maybe we could start with Senate candidates who aren't afraid to tell you they belong to the Democratic Party.

I completely agree with your take on this:

Some people are saying that...

Dems should cut their losses on social insurance programs like Social Security to build up political chits with GOPers and extra revenue for universal health care. But I don't think it works that way. And I think the 1990s are the prime example. Give up on Social Security and that undermines progressive reform on every front. It's not a matter of coalition politics. It's that every win galvanizes and strengthens progressive reform as a whole.

 You have to think of republicans as narcissists.  If you do that, you can figure out what NOT to do.  Every time they win something it adds energy and arrogance to the next thing they want.  They are NOT interested in compromise or even cooperation.  It was not always like that, but it is now.

We have to get and keep momentum for the things that matter, and giving in on important issues with the idea that they will feel they "owe" us civility on other issues is a complete dead-end. 

I just saw An Incovenient Truth yesterday, and when Al Gore was explaining how Katrina picked up strength from the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico it reminded me of Karl Rove/  How he picks up more strength every time he wins another battle of negativity.  Every time he gets away with yet another lie, he just gets more powerful and more antagonistic.  He sees Democrats as enemies rather than sparring partners, and so giving him anything at all is a mistake.

I also think the Lamont race is very important, because it is finally a turning point for Democrats.  I know that others think it is short-sighted, and that the GOP will ultimately benefit, but isn't it about time Democrats stopped running scared and did something because it is the right thing to do?

If the reason to support Lieberman is so he can't get back at Dems if he wins, and if Democrats support him because of that, then we deserve to lose (again).  Lamont is the high road, and I am pretty much sick of the low road.  If Lamont pulls this off it will be a huge rallying cry for all Democrats who couldn't think of a good enough response when Rove accused them of loving terrorists, or hating the troops, or being weak on security.

It is time to stand up and look them in the eye and ask them why George Bush let the one person we know for a fact, sponsored 911, get away.  Why did he say he wasn't even concerned about him?  And then we need to tell them that nothing in the world has helped the terrorists more than this sick, wasteful folly in Iraq; that we need to spend those billions here on infrastructure and health care, and a real defense here at home. 

When Ken Mehlman changes his talking point from "Stay the course" to "Adapt to win," we have to just laugh, and say, "Nice try Ken, but you stayed the course too long.  It's time to turn the lights out and come home."  Let Halliburton stay there and rebuild Iraq's infrastructure if they want to, and we can hire good companies (through legitimate bidding) to do that for us here. 

The Lamont race is not about all of the above, but it is a starting point, and a symbolic sea-change.  I think, however, the conversation should be about Ned Lamont, and NOT on Joe.  The worst thing you can do to a narcissist is to ignore him. 

Jan Knaus

Well stated, as usual. John Edwards came to Connecticut on THursday and wowed the masses. as reported in the new haven register.

Former vice-presidential candidate John Edwards rallied several hundred people Thursday in a rousing populist speech for U.S. Democratic Senate candidate Ned Lamont, telling the crowd Americans are eager for change and real leaders.

"This campaign, including the primary election, is about change. It is what America is hungry for," said Edwards, the former U.S. senator from North Carolina. "America no longer wants the same old politics that they have now seen for decades.

They are looking for not politicians, but leaders. They are looking for somebody who will tell them the truth about what is happening in America today and somebody who has a different vision for where America needs to go. The man who is telling the truth and the man who will provide that vision in the next United States Senate from Connecticut is Ned Lamont," Edwards said to cheers from the crowd gathered on the lawn of Yale University’s medical campus on Cedar Street.

Let the GOP continue with their idiotic "a vote for Lamont is a vote for Osama" nonsense while Lamont cleans up with the things Connecticut voters care about.

With a huge American flag as a backdrop, Lamont said "one of the first calls that Joe Lieberman got (after the primary) was from Karl Rove (Bush’s senior adviser). The first call I got was from John Edwards," Lamont said as example of Lieberman’s popularity with Republicans, which a poll Thursday said gives him an edge in the November election.

Lamont then launched into his platform speech on the need to raise the federal minimum wage, to provide universal health care and affordable housing and to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. As he has for the past six months, he said President Bush’s foreign policies have failed and have left us less secure.

"One of the reasons we are making bad choices is because right now we have the best government money can buy in Washington, D.C.," he told the receptive crowd of his disdain for the 63 lobbyists in the nation’s capitol for every congressman.

"No more Republican rubber stamp Congress. We want someone who is going to hold this president accountable. No more one-party rule down there in Washington," said Lamont in an appeal to also elect Diane Farrell in the 4th congressional district; Joe Courtney in the 2nd District and Chris Murphy in the 5th District.

Edwards apologized for his initial support for the Iraq war and says we now need to move out 40,000 troops and come up with a plan to bring the rest home in the next 12 to 18 months, a position similar to Lamont’s.

"I was wrong and I take responsibility for that," Edwards said, but he called the members of the armed forces serving there "patriotic and courageous."

His theme was America’s moral responsibility, first to its own people, and then to the rest of humanity and he said that entails telling the truth. "I don’t know anybody in their right mind who can think what is happening in Iraq right now is working," he said. "We need to make it clear that we are going to leave Iraq and the best way to make that clear is to actually start leaving." He blasted the Bush administration for just "reacting," rather than helping to solve the world’s problems. "There is absolutely no indication that we have any long term vision for the kind of world we want to live in."

Who would you rather listen to? Someone that plans on doing the right thing for the American people? Or someone that insists that "he's the man" because he says so?

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I find the Lieberman Question to be absurdly simple. This is a quasi democracy. We use a primary election system to select our party candidates for most offices. Before that primary election we all support the candidate we like best, hoping he/she will win the primary. But, after the primary we all need to unite behind the winner of our party race.

I am not a fan of Lieberman, but if he had won the primary I would be a supporter of his reelection. This is the same way I felt before the 2004 election. I was a supporter of Howard Dean, but once Kerry was the obvious winner, I was a supporter of John Kerry. That's how we Democrats need to operate if we want to win elections.

So, I am very disappointed when any Democrat supports Lieberman at this time, and I doubt that they are helpful to the process of winning back the Congress and Presidency. In fact, I feel very strongly that the Democratic leadership in the Senate should remove Lieberman from all positions of any importance, including all of his committee seats. At this point he is not a Democrat.  Not because he lost the primary, but because he opposes the Democrat who won.

Hoppy in Sacramento

Yeah, the law in OHIO is called "The Sore Loser Law." Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

Jan Knaus

I think the argument that centrist Dems are scared of Lamont is absurd. I consider myself a centrist Dem and want Lieberman to go away. But the more prominent centrist Dems, the Clintons, have both come out in support of Lamont. This is no longer a battle between centrists and "netroots" and it's pointless to bring it up over and over again.

My criticism of donating to Lamont is that he is independently wealthy and can finance his own campaign if he wanted to. I think its unfortunate that money is diverted from less well off candidates to a well off candidate. That's my beef. (Plus, I think Lamont has done poorly since the primary.)

Criticisms of incumbents getting a ton of money despite being "safe" shouldn't ignore the fact that these same incumbents also give heavily to other races/candidates.

Completely agree with you, Aj.

Let's note, too, that the argument Josh is making, the one that you and I don't see as describing what's really happening, is the version of the facts that Lieberman and Rove are trying to sell.

Apparently it's working. :(

I'll say that there are two questions inside the question, "How important is the L/L race":

1) How important is it who wins? To that I say that 6 more years of Joe is better than other options I could imagine (a Santorum clone, for instance), provided his snit doesn't lead to further vengefulness after the election.

2) How important is it to fully and convincingly defeat Lieberman's message about the Democratic Party. That issue is national in scope, especially when he takes his bs to the national talk shows, and he will every chance he gets.

My greatest fear is what Lieberman's campaign will do to the party, not that he'll beat Lamont. That's HUGE.

Matt Stoler's essay on this topic is cogent:

Every bill that comes before the House and Senate faces a clear set of right-wing pressure points. The first and most powerful one is the Republican K-Street Project, which can whip all Republicans very quickly and effectively in the House, and nearly as quickly in the Senate. This is the machine that forces Republicans to obey the wishes of a right-wing leadership class, through the carrot of cushy corporate jobs and the stick of vicious primary challenges from the Club for Growth.

On the Democratic side, the pressure is just as intense, but more subtle. When a bill is introduced, a network of consultants, most of whom have corporate clients, begin to chatter about how taking a liberal position could weaken the Democratic Party. This is supplemented with a strong PR strategy by right-wing temporary coalition groups who put out networks of surrogates and ads to create a powerfully framed environment. Then business lobbyists come and visit Congressional offices, and make threats, attempt legislative bribes, or put out false but extremely persuasive pieces of information. There is often little real counterpressure, because liberal single issue groups have decided not to hold politicians accountable and do not cooperate with each other on issues not directly related to their vertical.

I just sent back a self-addressed stamped envelope to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee that solicited me for money. I've given to them before. This time, I checked "Other" for the amount and wrote in the amount "$0.00", writing that until they get right on the question of supporting winners of Democratic primaries (DSCC vice-chair Pryor supports Lieberman) they should look for no donations from me.

I will continue to criticize any Democrat who backs this turncoat. John Kerry is right. He's channelling Dick Cheney talking points.

I can forgive any Dem who backed Lieberman in the primary as long as he's backing Lamont now. Otherwise, forget about it. The Lieberman backers were claiming, during the primary that Lamont was jeopardizing a safe Democratic seat. They can't make that claim anymore. Lieberman did not have to do this.

Josh, you complained on TPM last week that Lamont didn't understand that he had only one week to get Lieberman out of the race and that he chose to go on vacation instead.

What possible course of action do you think you see that Lamont could have adopted to get Lieberman out of the race? He has too much support and too little shame to let go.

Lieberman just has to be beaten. That's all. Lamont has to put together a campaign organization to get that job done. It's not going to happen by Beltway types shaming Joe. If Lamont can get this done, he wins. If not, he loses.

Beltway types such as yourself who support Lamont can do their part by not spreading such defeatist nonsense. One poll does not an election make.

This election is like the 1983 Chicago mayoral. There too, entrenched powers showed they had no shame and no willingness to give up their power in the name of party loyalty. It took a ground war, retail politics, to elect Harold Washington in the face of such opposition, and it will take the same to elect Ned Lamont.

Josh, I am afraid that for people like myself the Iraq war is the only issue in 2006.

It's not just you. Check the polls -- Iraq is the number one priority in almost every poll (Fox is the outlier, and it's close).

But in some ways, it's because it's not a single issue (and Lamont has said this). It's terrorism, it's foreign policy, it's energy, it's security. It's even health care and social security and education, because all the money for everything we want to do at home is going over to Iraq.

Just about the only issue Iraq is not about is 9/11.

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I definitely agree that his condescending attitude and hostility towards opinions other than his own are what makes Lieberman a) really annoying and b) the Democrat who is probably the most corrosive to any semblance to honest and open political discussion these days. The fact that he seems to derive joy from undermining the Democratic party as a whole, to say nothing of progressives, in his rhetoric makes him much worse than Clinton in his effect on national politics.

But thats besides the point that I'm trying to make. I think that the idea to invade Iraq was so fundamentally horrible that everyone inside the government and the nation's chattering classes who helped bring it about should never be taken seriously ever again.

However, I voted for Kerry in the 2004 primary over Kucinich - because I'd rather go with someone who can win rather than someone who is ideologically pure. As Deng Xiaoping said "I don't care if a cat is black or white, I only care that it can catch mice"

If I thought it were possible to replace Clinton with someone who was better, I'd go volunteer for their campaign in a heartbeat. But Hillary has US $22 Million cash on hand for her campaign, which is roughly 22 times what everyone else in the race has combined.

We have limited resources and need to pick our battles based on our ability to win. And I think that people in the progressive netroots realize this.

Look, there is no way to disconnect a Lieberman victory from 2006/2008. 

If Lieberman is able to win, or even show strength in spite of a dismal Democratic track record (Schiavo, Birth Control, Vouchers, Clinton, Iraq) and an on/offon/off/on position for privatization, it will signal a party in disarray to all fence sitters come November. 

And it should be noted that his support for Iraq was of the worst possible kind - not only supporting the war long after it became clear that it was a mistake in conception, but even more his offensive support the president speech.  Many democrats had trouble rationalizing their position on the war, but I think only Ben Nelson would have agreed with Joe that you have to get behind Bush no matter what, and I don't recall even Nelson saying so in public.  That is the antithesis of a democratic government, at least that's the way Democrats see it. 

It is just not possible to treat this race any other way.   And the middle will be paying close attention to the Senate in it's response to the perceived truth that Lieberman is a Demi-Republican.  If the Democrats can't show strength and unity in the face of treason it will not be given the keys to the car.  I mean, what would be the point? 

Anyway, you can be certain that this is how it will be treated by the MSM talking heads.  Historically, there are many instances where events take on symbolic import beyond its immediate meaning (The assasination of Archiduke Ferdinand). Why else would Bushco come out of the closet with such a desperate effort to support Joe.  These people are masters of symbolism And they never work on stage. 

This race simply can't be parsed and, therefore, it is the November tipping point for Democrats.  If we don't treat it that way we will be very sorry come election day.

I can't for the life of me understand what Schumer and Reid are thinking.

When Ken Mehlman changes his talking point from "Stay the course" to "Adapt to win,"

 he is flip-flopping.  Flip-flop, flip-flop flip-flop.

Josh,

I think Matt Bai has it about right. (NYTimes Sunday Magazine)

...you first have to master the business of getting elected before you can worry about how to govern. (Most powerful Democrats in Washington now believe this too.) But even with legions of outraged conservatives at his back, Reagan would not have taken over his party in 1980 - let alone the White House - had he not articulated an affirmative and bold argument against his party's status quo, vowing to devolve the federal government and roll back détente with the Soviets. Passion and fury started the revolution, but it took a leader with larger vision to finish the job.

It seems to me that the CT race is getting too much attention because it suits the Republicans.  It is after all the dogs days of summer and the media have nothing else to write about except the disaster in the Middle East and Tony Blair's fit of pique with George W. over his poor handling of the Israel-Lebanon fighting. 

The Democrats have yet to figure out that what they need is a leader who (as Bai put it) "will articulate an affirmative and bold argument against the party's status quo."  That leader is not Lamont.  So who is it? And when will (s)he get front and center? I certainly hope that some one rises before George decides to drop bombs on Iran.

It is what Lieberman is willfully doing to the Democratic Party that is exactly why the Senate leadership needs to step up now and chop his legs out from under him. His actions speak much louder than his words - he is not a Democrat. He doesn't belong in any position of influence in the Democratic Party or the Congress. This has no real effect except to emphasize to Connecticut voters that the Democratic candidate is not Lieberman, and it tells other Democrats that this is not an allowed activity for a Democrat. Every Democrat who mentions the name Lieberman from now until the election has to do so in this context.

You would think I despise Lieberman, but I don't. I didn't really care who won that primary, and even tilted slightly towards Lieberman, but the primary is over and Lieberman didn't win it. Lamont is the candidate now.

Hoppy in Sacramento

One of the things that you do best, Josh, is get Republicans to 'fess up to positions that might not help them in elections: the bamboozlers, the Shays handful, etc.

What does that prove? That DeLay's House and Frist's Senate were/are ruled, more or less, with an iron fist, and that elected Republicans are prepared to bullshit on their positions in public, but not prepared to abandon them and risk the wrath of their caucus leaders. Keeping in the leaderships' good books is more important, in many cases, than being honest with their constituents.

What has that brought the GOP? One hopes, a fiery exit from power. But only after a decade of near total control of Congress.

The moral? When it comes to gaining power, unity of message and tough discipline works.

One of the things that's key to me is that almost everyone outside of Connecticut who backed Lamont has spent a lot of time backing candidates (Dean, Winograd, Hackett, Cegelis, etc) who wind up losing in the primaries -- but nonetheless play by the rules and accept the verdict, no matter how strong the principles that brought them to the fight in the first place.

Most of us had always assumed that the same could be said of those who won - for example, nobody expected John Kerry to run as a spoiler if Dean won in 2004, etc.

That many in the chain of command are willing to excuse a Lieberman indie run fundamentally changes the rules for what's allowed - or sets a flatly unacceptable dual standard for how these elections should run. And it Lieberman is reseated with the Democrats after this, it will mean pandemonium - utter chaos for the party across the board.

Here's a question: would the Republicans ever put up with this? Think of Toomey-Specter... could this have happened there? I personally don't think it would have been tolerated, even after the sitting president came in to campaign for Arlen in 2004. What does this say about our party, and our commitment to our voters?

Among progressives agreeing to disagree is essential, but the Democratic Party has (and needs) rules: one of them is that its Connecticut candidates are selected by primary voters.

Nationally speaking, I don't think beating Lieberman should have as high a priority as beating any sitting Republican.

I do think that if Lieberman manages to win and the Democratic Party allows him to keep his seniority a significant number of Democrats will be looking for a new party...

In the narrow sense, you were looking for an essential matter of principles that would justify this race being so critical -- and this is the most basic one I could think of. Apologies if you were asking rhetorically about "clear and unmistakable issues of principles."

In the more general sense, I see this (as do many others, I think) as the 2000 FL recount battle refought. We can't go back to that event, but hindsight shows us what it costs when we fail to make the case for what's fair -- as aggressively as possible -- once the votes are cast.

That said, this "battle to the knives", as you say, is nothing compared to what we'll face after the election if Lieberman winds up with a shit-eating grin in the 110th Congress Democratic caucus photo. You posted one take on it on TPM earlier - if there's no rules, there's no party. Frankly, I'd prefer a war of words now to an open revolt later.

Well, if I can offer the perspective of a Canadian, it strikes me that any coherent political party must establish a framework beyond which outliers and renegades must not pass. A party must be able to effectively police its framework, its acceptable norms.

Lieberman exceeded any reasonable framework when he was a sitting Democrat. His positions consistently undermined the party and aided the Republicans, and worse, he made a habit of attacking fellow Democrats. This was bad enough... Lieberman's conduct was nothing more and nothing less than a fundamental threat to the Democratic Party.

Now, there are various ways to police bad behaviour, none of which were either employed with Lieberman, or had any meaningful effect. One of the ways to police bad behaviour, perhaps the last resort, was a primary challenge. This was duly undertaken. Having lost the primary, he became a true renegade. Lieberman's position is that as a Democrat, he will not accept any restrictions on his behaviour.

Apply this to the party, you have no party. A party which cannot establish a coherent position or enforce coherence upon its members is not a political party, its a cocktail party. It is a loose social gathering without meaningful effect and without capacity to have meaningful effect.

So here's the thing. If you guys can't beat Lieberman, then you're not worth a pot to piss in. The Democrats cannot establish and police any coherent norms. Which means that you don't amount to a party worth voting for or counting for anything.

If you can't beat Lieberman, you sure as hell have no chance against the Republicans. Lieberman is the test for minimum coherent standards. Are you a political party, or a nest of screw ups.

eereeves

I think you are dead wrong on this Josh, this whole campaign has fired me up, got me off the couch and being active. And it goes to the heart of our system; if Joe can be a sore loser and win, this country and its politics are in dire trouble.

I guess some Democrats may find this sort or rant appealing to their masochism. But I don't. I don't think it even makes much political or historical sense. Historically, American parties don't function the way parliamentary parties do in the UK and even in Canada. We have a different system. That's worth learning. As for this bloviating about what it means if Lieberman wins, again, a lot of talk. Lieberman has a lot of advantages you choose to ignore -- like the fact that for all intents and purposes the GOP didn't field a candidate. That means he can pick up all the GOP votes, in addition to conservative Democrats and his own loyalists. That doesn't mean he can't be beat. I'm pretty sure he can. But this is the sort of trash talk that definitely requires leaving your brain at the door.

Its not a matter of masochism. I acknowledge that the American political structure has fundamental differences from Canadian or British political structures, differences which I understand and appreciate. And I'll also note that I'm quite familiar with the American system. I would dare say that I'm more familiar with the constitutional structure and current dynamics of the American system than Josh is of the Canadian political system or scene. In this respect, I find Josh's remarks somewhat intemperate.

However, the fact that the American Congressional system is markedly different from Parliamentary systems hardly represents an infinite 'get out of jail for free' card. It merely suggests that the rules in certain respects have more latitude... not that no rules apply.

The simple fact that political parties exist at all in the United States, rather than simply a collection of free agents, gives the lie to Josh's response. Political parties exist for a reason, or for a series of reasons, ranging from loose ideological and social coherence, to tradition, to common interests, to pooling of resources.

In order for a political party to function, to even exist as an entity, it has to establish a set of formal and informal rules and customs which govern the behaviour of members within a broad range of consensuses. That consensus can be debated and contested within the party (as an example, consider the success of the Southern Democrats in supporting segregation and opposing civil rights legislation, despite the lac of support for their position anywhere else, the key is that they had successfully made tolerance of their key policies an element of the overall consensus). What a political party cannot accept and cannot survive is a repudiation of that consensus.

This is the situation of Lieberman. His conduct is a progressive act of repudiation of the norms of the Democratic party, up to and including rejecting its operational rules.

The questions that Lieberman poses go to the heart of the Democratic Parties viability. Are primaries meaningful with respect to challenges to incumbents, or not? If it is meaningful, then Lieberman's conduct is beyond the pale. If it is not meaningful, except as a ceremonial coronation, then why waste the time? Is Lieberman a Democrat, or not? If he remains so, then it appears that the accepted channels of primaries and nominations becomes essentially meaningless, and any disgruntled faction is entitled to ignore or abandon the process at will, and contest a proceeding. If he is not a Democrat, then it is critical that the party bring him down.

In any social system, apostates are invariably more despised and more dangerous than mere outsiders or rivals. Simply put, they disrupt and undermine the consensus and the rules by which the community exists. Communities establish tolerable ranges of dissent and discussion, but show very little tolerance beyond those ranges. A community which cannot establish enough consensus to deal with apostates likely can't deal coherently with anything else.

Even today, Benedict Arnold is far more hated and reviled in America than any number of Generals who started with and finished with the British.

Over the last several years, the Democratic Party has struggled to establish any sort of coherent position. It has floundered with consensuses so broad as to be meaningless. Consider Bush's damning indictment of Kerry "He was for it, before he was against it." To voters, the Democrats stood for nothing at all, not even as an alternative to the Republicans. In view of this, it speaks to how traditional voting patterns in America are that the Democrats won as much as they did.

So, the question is, will the Democratic Party survive as a meaningful agency, if Lieberman is successful? Keep in mind that the Democratic party is 'meaning impaired' now.

In terms of the current election cycle, assuming honest elections without corruption or voter suppression (and that is not a proper assumption to make), it seems unlikely that the Democrats will succeed in taking either the House or the Senate. Chances are slightly better for the house.

However, in terms of this broader struggle, it is worth asking what effect if any Lieberman will have. Certainly the Lieberman contest cannot be viewed as an isolated phenomenon. It's not an 'off year' 'fluke' Senatorial election, but an integral part of the larger election set or cycle going on.

In this respect, Lieberman poses two threats to the Democratic Party. One concrete, the other political.

The concrete threat is that Lieberman's candidacy may undermine three House races in Connecticut. This is a technical issue, and there's not much to debate here. Given that 15 to 18 seats are critical, Lieberman's impact may well have a significant role in the Democrats chances to take the house.

The larger political threat that Lieberman poses has been immediately grasped by the Republicans and Karl Rove. Call it the 'Zell Miller' effect. It is simply far more effective to have the enemy attacked from within, or by an apostate. Zell Miller conducted himself as a petty lunatic. Joe Lieberman, simply for his superficial aura of reasonableness, is far more dangerous. Lieberman is now a willing tool for whipping the Democrats, and he'll be used as such.

In this respect, any Democrat ambivalence or equivocation with respect to Lieberman is going to simply amount to an endorsement of Republican whipping. "Yeah, its all true, they're right, Joe's got a point, we got it coming."

Lieberman's Senate campaign simply will not occur in a vacuum. Even if the Democrats stick their heads in the sand and pretend that it is, that is not how the media, the Republicans or ultimately the voters will see it and play it. Lieberman will be used by the Republicans, he is willing to be used by the Republicans, and to the extent that any Democrat is prepared to tolerate Lieberman, they have no defense and no response to this line of Republican attack.

Assuming some Democrats are tolerant of Lieberman and some aren't, this continues to arm the Republican attack and makes the Democrats more publicly incoherent.

Now, this is a lot of baby talk saying very obvious things. But the bottom line is that a political party cannot allow outliers and renegades beyond its norms, or it becomes incoherent and ineffective. A cocktail party, rather than a political party. A very pleasant gathering certainly, but meaningless in a larger sense. Because a political party does not exist in isolation, but in a political system peopled by rival political parties, that lack of coherence is fatal.

Again, if the Democrats can't handle Lieberman, then there's no way they can handle the Republicans. Not least of which will be because Lieberman and his political narrative is now a Republican tool.

Now, I haven't addressed the narrow consequences of a Lieberman win. But I see no reason to believe it would in any way be a positive result for the Democrats.

If Lieberman nominally returns to the Democrat fold, he will do so from a position of strength, in which the party will have no ability to set any borders for him... or by extension, anyone else. Translation: Cocktail party time. Incoherence, impotence and ineffectuality.

The only way to accommodate Lieberman will be to tolerate a free range dissent without restrictions and to attempt to bribe civil behaviour out of him. Joe's status as a Democrat will be purchased from one moment to the next, this purchase will not be enforceable. It would be a mess.

Alternately, Lieberman sits as an independent or as a Republican. Again, neither outcome is particularly good for the Democrats. In the event of a close Senate where Lieberman's status as a wild card makes him valuable, the likely result is that the Republicans will consistently outbid the Democrats for his loyalty.

This makes no assessments as to Lieberman's character. This is simply the Realpolitik of the situation.

I can't make it any simpler or more obvious. So, how's that for bloviation?

Historically, American parties don't function the way parliamentary parties do in the UK and even in Canada. We have a different system. That's worth learning.

Here's what some random political journalist said in the aftermath of the 2004 election:

Surveying the scene today, one thing that occurs to me is that President Bush is remaking the government into something that is looking more and more like a parliamentary democracy. I don't mean in every specific, of course; the key feature of the Bush presidency is an extremely powerful executive that to a great degree coopts and controls his own congressional majorities...

It's fine to bemoan this. And there's much to bemoan. But Democrats also need to learn how to live with it, at least for the next four years. And that means realizing that for at least the next two years, the President can get passed almost anything he wants to. His congressional majorities are now sufficiently padded that he can even afford a few Republican defections. He simply doesn't need Democrats for anything.

And that means approaching most legislative battles not with an eye toward preventing passage or significantly altering legislation, but placing alternatives on the table that the party will be able use as contrasts to frame the next two elections. In other words, their only remaining viable alternative is to be an actual party of opposition.

'Historically' no longer counts for much, even if you and many others would wish it otherwise. The Democrats are facing, in essence, a parliamentary party in November, with the reverse of George Galloway -- in fact, worse than Galloway in terms of party standing, since he didn't benefit from being supported through a primary.

Like you said in 2004, the Democrats need to learn how to live with things as they are, not some fantasy world in which supporting Lieberman as a sitting Democratic Senator is an acceptable strategy for the forthcoming election.

Historically, American parties don't function the way parliamentary parties do in the UK and even in Canada. We have a different system. That's worth learning.

Perhaps Lieberman's greatest miscalculation, that he could get away with his own brand of triangulation, was based on his own misunderstanding of the political terrain.

For anyone that hasn't noticed, the Republicans have rewritten the rule book. We can argue if this is the new reality or just a temporary state of affairs; certainly an endless supply of pork has been part of the mechanism for keeping Republicans in line. But for now, it is the reality that must be dealt with.

...lot of liberal blogosphere to go from being against Lieberman, to being against anyone who supports Lieberman, to being against anyone who isn't sufficiently against Lieberman, to be against anyone who even raises a question about the emerging orthodoxy about this race.

I'm glad you used the word "orthodoxy" Josh, you could also easily include litany and an apparent religious ferver.

If you view the blogoshpere as a cult, instead of a political movement, their behavior/actions become both understandable and predictable.

From Factnet.org, a cult information site there are several points which highlight cult-like behavior--I'll paste in the pertinent ones to the blockquote above:
http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

And from Jay Lifton's eight point model:

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or
personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed."

5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.

=============================
The blogoshere has some serious soul searching to do--they need to ask themselves:

When did the blogoshere cross over from grassroots movement to being a cult?

Lieberman can easily be considered wrong, misguided, out of touch, etc. But what can be said for Mary Landreau after what the Republicans did to her state? Do you see any redeeming explanation to counter those posted below?

Well, she hasn't shown up on the gabfests too often since her state's most famous city got submerged. Old story, see?

I can cope with Landrieu's voting record. I appreciate the fact that she's not a useful idiot in terms of high-profile politics. But it's unconscionable for her to treat the primary process -- the process that allows both her and Ned Lamont to be Democrats -- as if it's an optional extra.

Plenty of northeastern liberals went down to Louisiana in 2002 to help out in the runoff that kept her in the Senate; I don't doubt that many disagreed with her vote for the AUMF resolution a month earlier. They sucked it up. Now she's backing Lieberman. That's giving the finger to the rulebook that got her elected.

Let's put it as simply as possible: party primaries are one of the main reasons why broad-church two-party politics still exists in the US. It's an anomaly. Let candidates treat the general election as the second chance saloon, and you might as well do away with them entirely and embrace a regional multi-party polity underneath loose voting coalitions, akin to that in Italy, And that will splinter the Democrats before it does the GOP.

Maybe I'm just mis-informed or plain ignorant. This is Joe Lieberman for crying out loud. Anybody reading through all the crap that is being said back and forth about this on these pages and elsewhere seem to be forgetting that Republicans do not want to vote for a liberal. Step back and realize that all this talk is among political addicts. The average American voter just does not think like you do. Can you imagine those Wall St types that commute to NY walking in and voting for Joe simply because he supports Bush's Iraq policy and besides it will piss off the Democrats? From their point of view it's the same problem with every election... both candidates look about the same. Except for maybe the actual Republican candidate. Joe's had a number of years in the Senate making votes that totally alienate conservatives except for one issue. Usually the incumbent has an advantage, but not with those that identify with the opposing party.
Voters follow trends that are quite visible if you want to look for them. The trend now is to see the war for what it costs.

dc

Look, I have not liked or trusted Joe Lieberman since 1990, when he did what he could to defeat Paul Wellstone's first campaign against Republican Rudy Boschwitz. When you find out that the then quite Jr. Senator from CT is talking to the progressive funding sources for any Democratic Candidate in DC, and telling them not to cut checks to Minnesota's endorsed, and primary nominated candidate -- then you have horrid aftertaste.

When you chance to sit in on a phone call from Joe the morning after the election when he is demanding all the press clips, and wondering why calling Paul a Bad Jew because his wife of 30 years was a Baptist, did not work magic at the end of the campaign, then that Lieberman guy is someone to be examined carefully.

It all happened, and it is all on the record in the books about Wellstone's 1990 Campaign, and in the press. It isn't rumor, it is established.

Now Paul Wellstone might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but on about a million, he defeated a Republican with eleven million. Lieberman supported the Republican with all the millions. He was much put out when that was not what governed the outcome, and when his efforts to keep progressive funders away from that Wellstone Campaign proved useless.

Let's get back to Paul's construction of the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" and give that construction meaning for the contemporary era. It certainly doesn't include guys who tried to screw Paul's first Senate Race.

Didn't the voters in the primary select Ned Lamont? Joe isn't running as a Democrat. He is running as an Independent.

OK, why all the angst? The Democratic voters have spoken. If you are a Democrat you are obligated to support the party's candidate.

Too many people seem to have forgotten that the people inside the beltway are supposed to serve the desires of the rest of us, not the other way around.

Ron Byers

Exactly!

Lengthy is the appropriate word. At some point, you have to realize you can't explore the dotting of every single 'i' and the crossing of each 't'. As it is, I often feel I go on too long.

Is part of the resentment for Lieberman the result of simmering anger at the endless compromises and triangulation of the Clintons?

Quite possible. Feel free to explore or discuss that in more detail.

On the other hand, I think such a case would be ironic, given that another source of long simmering anger at Lieberman was his own betrayal of Clinton by denouncing him at the impeachment hearings.

Definitely. This race is important to the Democratic roots (net and grass) because it is a gut-check for the Democratic Party. Kerry has taken the gloves off with Joe, Hiliary has said and done the right things, but I'm hearing crickets from the DLC and that's bad. Voters are free to choose who they want on election day. Democrats can vote for Republicans and Republicans can vote for Democrats. Hooray for democracy. But the party apparatus should only support it's own candidates. You certainly don't give cash, but more importantly, you don't give moral support to opponents of YOUR candidate.

Yeah yeah ... you can make exceptions when your own candidate is so unbelievably odious as to be a blight on your party (e.g. they are an openly racists SOB or convicted child molester), but come on, Ned Lamont? The DLC can't bring itself to support Ned Lamont?

Give up on Social Security and that undermines progressive reform on every front.

Accepting your invitation to comment. On that particular sentence mine is :"Yes , and furthermore".

Giving up on social security to obtain some political chits may or may not make strategic sense-my guess is you're right it doesn't. But , introducing a boring moral criterion , it's wrong. 

In effect it's deliberately choosing to harm some citizens for the benefit of others. Or viewed another way , choosing a certain ill in the uncertain  hope that good may result.

Philosophers will cringe at my oversimplification. But the rest of us ought to just continue to protect social security.

Dems should cut their losses on social insurance programs like Social Security to build up political chits with GOPers and extra revenue for universal health care. But I don't think it works that way. Exactly. The GOP doesn't give out chits; it only takes.

Chrissie's far too nice to Bai, whose Sunday article infuriated me. He wasn't calling for bolder leaders, but the opposite: using that old garbage about the need for new ideas to tout the superiority of the GOP and, by extension, his usual program for a less liberal Democratic party than ever. He argues that Lamont's supporters (the wacko Netroots, rather than the actual Democratic primary voters, much less the majority of all Americans opposed to the war) are taking mindless revenge on the Clinton/Gore party and its belief in compromise (which Bai in fact prefers). So no wonder Lamont can't articulate, he feels, more than "platitudes about universal health care and good jobs and about bringing the troops home."

Now, put aside that it's Lieberman who famously pounced on Clinton as president. Bai can't understand the difference between compromise as a political maneuver in coalition building and compromised politics. Maybe that's why Gore himself opposed the war and the infringements on civil liberties from the first. It's certainly why Bai dismisses health care, good jobs, and ending the war as platitudes. Sorry, but those are my vision for America.

John

http://www.haberarts.com/

John, I didn't read it that way.

What about:

But it was the yearning for a more confrontational brand of opposition on all fronts, for something resembling the black-and-white moral choices of the 1960's, that more broadly animated Lamont's insurgency. Connecticut's primary showdown (which now appears to be headed for a sequel in November) marked an emphatic repudiation not just of the war but also of Clinton's ''third way'' governing philosophy - a philosophy not unlike the Republican ethos of ''compromise'' and ''pragmatism'' that so infuriated Reagan conservatives.

I read Bai more as setting priorities: first figure out how to get elected and for that you need a leader and that leader has to articulate the - your - vision for America. 

Bai's "platitudes" were a reference to Lamont's seeming inability to "create the vision" needed to be a leader.

 By contrast, Lamont's signature proposal as a primary candidate - and the only one anyone cared to hear, really - seemed to be the hard-to-dispute notion that he is not, in fact, Joe Lieberman. He offered platitudes about universal health care and good jobs and about bringing the troops home but nothing that might define him as anything other than what he is: an acceptable alternative.

I still think that too much emphasis is being placed on the CT race.  Lieberman will do what he has to.  Lamont has to get cracking and I think if Lamont can get some more free air he will do well.  He handles himself well and if he keeps retail politicking, well that's how you win.  He has to spend some money 'though because the Republican'ts are claiming Lamont is a socialist (Corliss Lamont) and have conveniently forgotten Lamont is also an investment banker (JP Morgan)  through both maternal and paternal lineage.

I am curious what are the party's rules? Bernie Sanders a socialist in the House votes with the Democratic caucus. Both parties are far more dependent on the positions of its candidates to set policy that it is on the parties to set the candidates position.

It looks at the moment like Lieberman is going to get reelected. He iwll have every reason to stick is thumb in the eyes of people on blogs. Do you think that Demcorats in the Senate should drive him out and perhaps give the Republicans control of the Senate? Or, since virtually all the main Democratic Senators worked for his primary election, should they invite him back as a Demcorat?

Daniel A. Greenbaum

I completely agree with you on your first point. No one expects the loser of a primary to undermine the winner, and the entire party apparatus should be backing Lamont to the hilt in the election. I respectfully disagree with the second point. Lieberman should be allowed to caucus with the Democrats if he wins, BUT he should be stripped of his seniority on all committees (Leiberman did not win as a Democrat and therefore he should not be rewarded with a committee chair should we take the senate). The Dems would be foolish to forfeit control of the Senate if Lieberman caucusing with the Dems is what's needed to take the senate.

The party leadership should be making it crystal clear right now that though they would welcome Joe to caucus with them should he win (just as they'd welcome any Independent candidate to caucus with them), he will not be entitled to the senority he earned as a Democrat. He forfeited that when he left the Democratic Party. That way Leiberman can not later hold the party hostage by saying, "I'll caucus with you only if I get to retain my senority."

Clinton is so last decade.

You DLCers need to get over the fact that you are too. Either support the emerging leaders like Edwards and Lamont, or get out of the way.

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Lieberman lost. He isn't a Democrat anymore than Karl Rove.

The sooner people get over a populist being the Democratic nominee in Connecticut, the sooner we can get back the Senate and the House.

These new and decent leaders understand what Americans want and need, and they can read trends. Apparently you "status quo" cowards are too timid and/or fearful of change to do anything but mourn, whine, and complain.

Grow a spine.

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Like you said in 2004, the Democrats need to learn how to live with things as they are, not some fantasy world in which supporting Lieberman as a sitting Democratic Senator is an acceptable strategy for the forthcoming election.

Ah, very good, Ahem. Those words were inspirational in 2004, weren't they? They inspire today, as well. Josh is a hero for what he did back then. He did something that the Democratic party, itself, could not do - he united Democrats to oppose Bush's "plan" to phase out Social Security. Not on his own - but his blog was definitely instrumental in putting pressure on Democrats to do the right thing, something they should've done without any coaxing, btw. Hmmmmm....Joe L. was one of those Democrats, IIRC.

Democrats need to come out as a block and condemn what Lieberman is doing is CT. When you have the vice-chair of the DSCC supporting Lieberman instead of the Democratic nominee - something is very, very, wrong!!

As Patrick Leahy said, being the once nominee for Vice President of the Democratic Party, Joe had a special responsibility to play by the rules. of course he did, but Joe is all about Joe!!

He needs to be forced out of the race - by party leaders in a unified voice - and if they don't do it, the voters of Connecticut will! But, it shouldn't be left to the voters - they've already spent time and money defeating him once!! Replacing an incumbant Vichy Dem with a true Democrat shouldn't be this hard to do.

"If you can't control your own party, Josh, then what right can you claim to control a majority in Congress?"

This isn't a troll, it is a genuine question: Are you, ahem, saying that if the Democrats currently can't control their own party, then they shouldn't be in the majority? Those aren't your exact words, but they come pretty close. They also come pretty close to the year 2000 mantra by the Greens that there was no substantial difference between Democrats and Republicans, and that you might as well vote Green.

Look, of course Democrats should support Lamont, but what if the day before the election, Lieberman has a 20 point advantage over Lamont, and a 4 point advantage over Orchulli -- who you gonna vote for then?

And does establishment of party discipline have to precede a November victory? Or could we have some hope that discipline could improve after dems take control? After all, it seems unlikely that discipline will improve if the dems keep losing. There are a lot of other reasons for the current Republican dominance besides party discipline -- control of the rules and committees, for one.

In other words, the populist Dems are the ones who will be elected.

The DLC is dead. Long live the populists.

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I think so too.

What really gets me mad is when people dismiss the leaders that are emerging.

Some call them Big-D Democrats, some call them populists, some call them New Deal Democrats, others call them socialists, which they are, but the word socialist is usually said with a sneer.

The truth is, the majority has been getting boned big time for the last 25 years, and what some call a "third way" or a "new way" isn't really new. It is getting back to our principles of doing what is best for our society as a whole.

THAT is "conservative" politics for you. (Tongue in cheek on that last one BamBam).

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I take your point that Lieberman is listed as an asterisked Democrat; however, he is running as the candidate for Connecticut for Lieberman (a party of one), and not as an "independent" as listed on the site. In my view, he left the Democratic Party to form his own party. Others have a different view.

I hope the DLC is dead---it's quite apparent our party has suffered since it's inception in '84.

The next wave are Populists---and it's about time, too.

"there's a great virtue in agreeing to disagree about as many issues as possible"

If this wasn't your website, you would have been banned for saying that. Try saying that on DKos or Red State and see how fast your comments are hidden.

Taking their cue from lockstep Republicans, Democrats no longer allow dissent in any form. Centrism has morphed into weakness.

Over the last two years most Democratic writers on the internet have gone from, "we now have a voice" to "it's my way or the highway".

I don't know what will happen when we pull out of Iraq. But I have a sneaky suspicion things will not get better. What will we do when the purple finger of disaster is pointed at us? How will we be able to convince ourselves that a presence in Iraq will be necessary for many years to come and who will make that argument?

I would say, at an absolute minimum:

1) Refrain from overt attacks upon the party members and constituent base.

2) Support your own party, as opposed to supporting your opponents.

3) Conform to the formal rules and procedures.

Lieberman has violated all of these rules.

If Lieberman successfully wins, and this is in no way guaranteed, then the initiative is entirely on his side as to whether to caucus with the Democrats, rejoin the Democrats, caucus with Republicans or join the Republicans. He will act in his own self interests.

On the other hand, it is questionable whether the Democrats interests would be served by having Lieberman caucus with them. Consider his recent behaviour of the last few years. Does anyone seriously think that Joe Lieberman, having struck out on his own, violated party rules, and having won as an independent, will be *better behaved*? More confined or accepting of the norms of the party? What if any leverage could be applied to control or moderate Lieberman's antics in this situation. Worse, Lieberman's own lesson in this and in prior cases, is that there are rewards for undercutting the party.

Lieberman is analogous to a child who has happily broken windows without condemnation or punishment. An electoral victory and acceptance back into the Democrats would be effectively giving that child a ball peen hammer and the run of a window factory. I can anticipate the happy glee.

In a situation of Lieberman victory, his clear perception would be that his principles have triumphed over party principles. He will always follow his own principles. Thus, the Democrat party must come to him, and Lieberman's own views become the barometer for whatever he feels the Democrats should do. The word loyalty becomes meaningless in this case.

Nor is there any guarantee of Lieberman's reliable support on any key issues. The reality is that Lieberman will be 'buyable' or 'persuadable' at every point by the Republicans. So when push comes to shove, Joe would be on the other side of the table. Joe's status as a Democrat in these situations would only serve to weaken or undermine other Democratic Senators, undermine consensus, and provide cover for wavering Democrats to bolt.

As to whether the Senate is actually in play, my view is that if Lieberman winds up being the key 51st Senator, then we've got a bidding war. Lieberman will hold the entire Senate hostage. Count on the Republicans to outbid the Democrats. And count on bidding to go very high, in terms of concessions to Joe's ego and influence.

On the other hand, it seems far from certain (and actually unlikely) that the Democrats will retake the Senate. Indeed, given the degree of American electoral corruption, I would not discount the Republicans actually making gains in the Senate.

Look, of course Democrats should support Lamont, but what if the day before the election, Lieberman has a 20 point advantage over Lamont, and a 4 point advantage over Orchulli -- who you gonna vote for then?

Excuse me, challenging Lamont supporters to a loyalty oath is completely inappropriate. Direct your ire to Democratic donors who give to Joe post-split, or to GOP goons like Bloomberg or McCain, if you feel the need.

And does establishment of party discipline have to precede a November victory? Or could we have some hope that discipline could improve after dems take control?

The former.

Oh OK, I didn't know a lot of Connecticut Republicans read TPM. Go figure. We'll see how they respond, I guess.

Codswallop - never heard that word before but I like it.

Actually, I don't think Lieberman should run as an Independent. He lost the primary. But if he wins in November, I think most internet Democrat partisans will somehow see it as a defeat. But they shouldn't. He is a Democrat. We may not agree with his stand on the Iraq war but that is not sufficient reason for the vitriol he has endured.

My concern is for the middle not the extremes. I would venture to say that most Americans do not agree with the 'stay the course' or the 'cut-n-run' plans.

Democrats in the coming months will need to offer a middle plan aka Murtha - pull back and see what happens. I believe Lieberman would support this position.

Currently, anything short of full withdrawal is blasphemy which can be seen in the Lamont victory. We seem to be hamstringing ourselves to one option which is sacrosanct.

You remind me of the caterpillar who sat on the leaf blowing smoke and asking Alice:

"Whoooo are yououou?"

I think it would be a mistake to pin the anti-Lieberman movement on frustration with Bill Clinton. Read the comments below by people who are only recently actively involved in politics. The "raging moderates" today were quite happy with the booming stock market and foreign vacations of the 90s.

The problem is not frustration with Bill Clinton. The problem is that the people who are trying to emulate his tactics either don't understand them or are, not to put too fine a point on it, venal. Clinton's genius (and I regard him as the best of the post-war presidents) was in identifying effective policies and then implementing them in an extremely contentious environment. The thing that people trying to do what he did don't seem to get is that you need effective policies to actually accomplish anything.

The notion that America is served by privatizing drug services to seniors on the public dime is flat out ridiculous. But the people who see themselves as Clinton's heirs are fine with that. The idea that net neutrality should be messed with is so obviously not in the public interest that it's embarrassing to see people defending the telecoms' desire to eliminate it.

They either don't get it, or they've sold themselves out.

...a presence in Iraq will be necessary for many years to come and who will make that argument?

who will make that argument?  Why, George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Rummy already have! 

Remember George saying (I'm paraphrasing ever so slightly now)  it will be up to another sucker President to get us out of this cluster-fuck quagmire of my very own making  Iraq once my pals at Halliburton and the CEO's of "security companies" have had their fill at the troph the great Iraqi army that we have created can "stand up so that we can stand down."  Until then, we must "Stay the Course," because "freedom is on the march," and we are "Adapting to win," and we are not "Weak on Terror" like the Democrats, who don't realize that these terrorists are "Dangerous folks."

Jan Knaus

Okie - The Democrats did offer a middle of the road plan and it was rejected by Leiberman.

If the shoe were on the other foot, and Joe won the primary and Ned decided to run anyways, the vast majority of us would be calling him "Nadar" Lamont. We want a strong Democratic party that can act as an opposition to the out-of-control Republican Party.

You are correct in that most of us would see the defeat of Ned by Joe as a defeat. Why? Because the Democratic candidate was defeated. Also, we have serious reservations as to how Joe will wield his power and vote.

At lest a million words and emotions have been invested in this debate because Joe has gone out of his way to polarize himself. Other pro-war Dems have not and virtually no attention has been paid to them. Make no mistake, there are very specific reasons why Joe has drawn fire - reasons that will be tough to ignore if he wins. Chief among them: At this point I expect to be called a traitor by Republicans. I don't expect an insinuation of such from my own party members.

I don't know what will happen when we pull out of Iraq

The president finally said it out loud today.

BUSH: The strategy is to help the Iraqi people achieve the objectives and dreams which is a democratic society. That’s the strategy. The tactics — now — either you say yes it’s important we stay there and get it done or we leave. We’re not leaving so long as I’m the president. That would be a huge mistake. It would send an unbelievably you know terrible signal to reformers across the region. It would say we’ve abandoned our desire to change the conditions that create terror.

My emphasis, obviously.

That's also Lieberman's position. That's the neo-con position. Permanent occupation.

Look, no need to get into a pissing match, but you're either:

a) suggesting that Lamont voters would help the Republican candidate,
b) suggesting that Lieberman supporters would help the Republican, or
c) suggesting that CT Republicans would split from their own party somehow (???)

...and if it's A that you're trying to convey, save it. As I wrote above, the people backing Lamont are the people who almost always lose primaries, but unfailingly get behind the nominee. For all the "lefties will cripple our candidate" rhetoric that we've had to wade through since 2003, it turns out that the guy who utterly ignored the election results was the DLC-anointed moderate.

And no, Lieberman is not a Democrat, since he's trying to defeat the party's nominee. You might think he's great, but a Democrat he is most certainly not.

With all due respect for the "middle." you are merely parroting Karl Rove's talking points as well. Lamont, more than Lieberman, represents the "middle." As Frank Rich observed in his Sunday column:

A similar panic can be found among the wave of pundits, some of them self-proclaimed liberals, who apoplectically fret that Mr. Lamont’s victory signals the hijacking of the Democratic Party by the far left (here represented by virulent bloggers) and a prospective replay of its electoral apocalypse of 1972. Whatever their political affiliation, almost all of these commentators suffer from the same syndrome: they supported the Iraq war and, with few exceptions (mainly at The Wall Street Journal and The Weekly Standard), are now embarrassed that they did. Desperate to assert their moral superiority after misjudging a major issue of our time, they loftily declare that anyone who shares Mr. Lamont’s pronounced opposition to the Iraq war is not really serious about the war against the jihadists who attacked us on 9/11.

That’s just another version of the Cheney-Lieberman argument, and it’s hogwash. Most of the 60 percent of Americans who oppose the war in Iraq also want to win the war against Al Qaeda and its metastasizing allies: that’s one major reason they don’t want America bogged down in Iraq. Mr. Lamont’s public statements put him in that camp as well,

[rant on]

I am sick to death of the DLC-Repub lite types telling me what the middle is. I know darn well what the middle is, it's me and the MAJORITY of this country. The DLC takes credit for electing Clinton, but that is a BIG LIE. Clinton got elected on a populist platform, UHC, and taxing the weathy, NOT on some lukewarm right leaning "me-fisrtism" of the DLC. When you understand that, you understand that the DLC represents the fifth column in the Democratic party, and has for the last 15 years. Their comments undermining today's populist leaders underscores the insidious, venomous rot they spew. They are creatures of the monied special interests and have NO PLACE in the Democratic party.

If that's "intolerant" of me, that's too bad. Maybe Republicans want to have liars, cheats and greedy fearmongers in their party, but they don't belong here. I see no good reason to "tolerate" them, as they have brought nothing but woe onto this party and this country.

Bums like Lieberman need to be shown the door, and the rest of the DLC needs to be outed as the traitors to the party that THEY are. Allow Social Security to go away? That isn't a Democrat, and they should stop calling themselves that. Period.

[rant off]

BTW; "Codswallop" was made popular again by the larger than life character Hagrid, in the Harry Potter Books. A simple, honest, good-hearted, loyal character. He'd make a better Democrat than Lieberman.

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That's an hilarious quotation.

There's no strategy at all, only a goal. It's like saying, "Our strategy for beating the Lakers is to score more points than them." As for the "tactic," staying's maybe a start, but how about doing.

Not that our polite press will ask follow-ups.

Yes you misunderstand me .My fault I'm sure.

 I agree completely with your position.

I think that gutting social security would harm that class of people who become impoverished in retirement for whatever reason. BTW as someone who was responsible for investing a pension fund of more than $100 million I feel it is criminally misleading to pretend that ordinary citizens can effectively and economically invest for their retirement. It's like encouraging them to be do it yourself surgeons.

Billmon puts it like this, referring the classical contrast between foxes and hedgehogs:

So now he's imitating the hedgehog as literally as any human being can -- he's rolled himself up into a defensive ball, spines out. He has nothing useful to say and absolutely no strategy beyond hunkering down and passively defying reality. Which leaves the generals and the troops no choice but to hunker down with him.

And can I add that the quote is bat-shit crazy--that the notion that the US is advancing democracy and reform by this war and by its policies is so starkly false to fact that it pretty much precludes followup questions.

On even days of the month, I think the president believes this crap. On odd days, I think it's just cynical manipulation of the public and the media. It really bothers me that after almost six years in office, I can't decide whether he's an idiot or not.

I agree that permanent occupation will not work. However, Lieberman may be more malleable than we expect. He's now calling for Rumsfeld to resign which would be a great start.

Don't get me wrong. I could care less if Lieberman is the Senator from Conn. I just don't want to see withdrawal as our only option.

Hoo boy. He's lost it.

BUSH: The terrorists attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens before we started the freedom agenda in the Middle East.

QUESTION: What did Iraq have to do with it?

BUSH: What did Iraq have to do with what?

QUESTION: The attack on the World Trade Center.

BUSH: Nothing. Except it’s part of — and nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a — Iraq — the lesson of September 11th is take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody’s ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq.

A lot of people here are missing the point of the post and are not answering Josh's questions.

There's no need to go off for several paragraphs in an effort to convince everyone that Lieberman is bad and we should want to defeat him. Everyone already agrees on that. The question is: Should we concentrate more on defeating Lieberman than on winning any other particular contested Senate race?

Lamont vs. Lieberman is important and not just for tactical reasons like Lieberman bringing Republican voters to the polls and helping out the Republican congressional candidates in the state. Also not just over the war. Also not over idealogy in general.

It's about the kind of party we're going to have. DLC members and third wayers are always wondering why their opponents act like they're so darned powerful -- it's because a lot of the people who are now netroots have felt like they haven't had a say in the party's future in a long time.

With Lamont, an antiwar candidate who is not a radical lefty, these people who are outside of the think tanks and lobby groups and consultant class, now have a say. But, when they beat Lieberman in a primary, Lieberman decided to run anyway... as if he's saying... no you really don't get to pick.

This race is important not so much because folks are passionately anti-Lieberman, but because if Lieberman gets a win in his do-over it'll leave a lot of valuable people with the impression that we're fighting some sort of indomitable establishment.

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

A Lewis Carroll comparison, eh?

Well, your closet Republican Lieberman reminds me of the Mad Gardener--particularly in the first and last lines:

The Mad Gardener's Song

He thought he saw an Elephant,
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At length I realise,' he said,
The bitterness of Life!'

He's shown himself to be nothing but a cheap bum in an expensive suit--he's spineless.

There are two options. Withdrawal or occupation. Pick one, please.

Okay, let me unsnark. You seem to be saying that you oppose permanent occupation. I'd like to note that this is the current policy. Even if the civil war miraculously stops, the US has established bases that would house about 50,000 troops permanently.

But, that note aside, what are the withdrawal conditions, benchmarks, milestones, dates certain, whatever, that you would support?

Hear, hear, well said.

This point is missed completely by our national media because, to them, politics is a spectator sport with (as far as they know) no repercussions in the real world.

But if the disastrous 8 years of the Bush administration will have shown anything, it will be that political choices at election time have very real consequences for the country.

I do think competence will be the central issue in 08, given the challenges Bush has left us with. It's why I don't think darlings of the left blogosphere like Edwards and Feingold will succeed, given their lack of executive experience. I suspect it will ultimately be HRC's downfall, given her prominent role in the healthcare debacle.

Yes. Because the Republicans are going to make Joe Lieberman the fulcrum against the rest of the Democratic party.

This election does not take place in a vacuum. The Democrats can choose to ignore this issue. The Republicans will not, the media will not, the voters will not.

If the Democrats ignore the issue, and the Republicans use it, then they will hatchet the Democratic party, and there will be neither coherent defense or response.

So fight Lieberman and perhaps win. Ignore Lieberman and definitely lose.

You remind me of my mother-in-law.

Jan Knaus

Well, I guess it says that a three time incumbent with national name recognition from two runs at the national stage, and tons of Republican money and Republican cash can beat a neophyte.

Huzzah. Startling! Shocking! Who would have guessed?

What it does not do is invalidate the criticisms of Lieberman or his conduct, which remain cogent. Nor does it amount to an endorsement of the DLC's electoral strategies which have been losing elections since at least 1998, and whose only significant successes were Bill Clinton's two wins.

It only means that a DLC candidate with overwhelming advantages will beat a candidate without those advantages. Big fat hairy deal.

As for what advantage there is to be gained from Lieberman caucusing with the Republicans... At least he will not be throwing Zell Miller style bombs within the party, at party constituencies and at party members and policies. At least he will not be providing cover to the Republicans, splitting the Democratic party, enabling further divisions and creating an illusion of bipartisanship. At least the Democratic Party will be able to develop some political coherence and act like a real party.

 That George -- he DOES have a way with words, doesn't he?

  Nothing. Except it’s part of — and nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a — Iraq — the lesson of September 11th is take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody’s ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq.

It will be interesting to see if the MSM follows up on this by replaying, for example, Cheney relating 911 to Iraq, and all the other "quotable quotes" that say the same thing.

And, "Freedom Agenda?"  I wonder if even Ken Mehlman can push that one through his teeth without laughing!

Jan Knaus

I don't want to get into a pissing match either. But I had an exchange with someone on TPM before the primary (sorry, i can't remember who) who actually said he would vote for the republican over Lieberman if Lieberman won. Surely only a small minority of Lamont supporters would do this, if any, and if you think I suggested the typical Lamont supporter would do this, I apologize for leaving that impression.

As for b), since Lieberman is getting support from various and sundry Republicans, that seems clearly to be the case. c) as well, they are not supporting Schlesinger.

And no, I don't think Lieberman's great, If I lived in CT I would support Lamont, but I do think Lieberman's better than Schlesinger or Orchulli. Lieberman *might* vote/support Republicans, but only some of the time; the latter two certainly *would*.

What does irk me is that there's a tendency I see in a lot of liberal blogosphere to go from being against Lieberman, to being against anyone who supports Lieberman, to being against anyone who isn't sufficiently against Lieberman, to be against anyone who even raises a question about the emerging orthodoxy about this race.

Josh, you're overreacting. If anyone in the mainstream blogosphere has been "against" those who raise questions, I haven't seen it. You then go on to say this:

[...]there's a great virtue in agreeing to disagree about as many issues as possible[...]

If you believe that, then you have to make room for people to express their disagreement. By conflating disagreement with opposition as you have here, you remove that space.

This particular issue is combustible for a lot of reasons, but the simplest one is that, as a partisan issue, it's very cut-and-dried: there is only one candidate running as a Democrat in this race. It's simply not permissible, if party membership is to mean anything, for other Democrats to support his opponent. I know that you like to see things in shades of gray, Josh, and I appreciate very much that you do, but this is one case where it's important for you to understand that there are very good reasons to see things in black-and-white.

This is not a zero sum game. This whole notion of priority is poorly framed. But Josh says that himself, so his post is uncharacteristically a little incoherent.

And no, everybody doesn't agree that he needs to be gone. It's pretty clear that the democratic leadership just wants the seat to have a D on it.

Josh's post seems to lean in the direction of that assessment.

But his question is "How important is this race?"

And the answer is that it is very important. It's going to determine the degree to which the party is forced to open itself up to its constituents. Take, for example, Hackett. Forced out of the race by the beltway. Or take, for example, Casey. A candidate that is in many ways out of step with the party, who was picked because of name recognition and could actually lose to Santorum because of his anti-choice position (pro-choice soccer moms may vote for Santorum because choice is not an issue).

Primaries are good things. Contested seats are good things. They force elected representatives to pay attention to their constituents. And they influence their positions, as we saw in Winograd's challenge and as we're seeing now as Joe tries to find away to be against the war after he was for it, but before he was first against while nonetheless not putting our nation in peril.

Primaries are useless if they don't count. What Josh and the democratic leadership is saying is that primaries don't count if you're a losing incumbent. Don't you see how wrong, how unrepresentative, how antithetical this is to an electoral system? Or how it encourages a culture of corruption?

I believe that the way in which the CT legislature set the electoral calendar was to prevent a candidate from doing this. If they had really intended to give a candidate two bites at the apple they would have set the date at least a month after the primary, and the statutes would not be so clear on a candidate having only one affiliation. They did that for a reason--so that you couldn't claim to be simultaneously an independent, a democrat and Connecticut for Lieberman candidate.

There's a lot of Sturm and Drang here--but that's because this race represents the message of Crashing the Gate. It represents a rising chorus of people who would like to see the Democratic party represent its rank and file constituents. So this race is important in part because it is putting this discussion, as Josh said, out in the open. And it's putting this issue up to a vote.

The Democratic leadership's response to the idea of putting an issue up to a vote, a vote that lets Republican voters play a large part in the direction of the party, is to say "Don't make waves." Well we're gonna freaking make some waves on this, whether they like it or not.

A special thanks goes out to sphealey, sinceimust, Sundog, SimoneDB and jpspencer for giving me a 0 or 1 rating. That's true DKos form.

(Remember, Joe didn't start the war, Bush did.)

A-frickin'-men

I had the car radio on a while ago and yes, M, if not the MS-est M, has picked up on Bush's mental disassembling. How far they'll take it, nobody knows.

Are there symptoms here of a break with Cheney? Cheney as no longer commander-in-chief of (that brilliant) foreign policy?

But I really butted in here to drop this intriguing number: Gore is running 5% behind Hillary, according to a poll in Time. Or is this old news?

No, of course I'm not kidding. I haven't seen it, not at Eschaton, not at FDL, not at MyDD, not on the front page at DKos. (I don't read the diaries there much so that may be a different thing.)

Perhaps you have an example that you would like to share?

What a clear and thoughtful response to a muddled question. It would really behoove the entire discussion if Josh and DK spent a little time clarifying their own thoughts on this issue. The idea of a circular firing squad was DK's contribution and it made no sense (leaning over backwards not to pick a fight). And Josh's framing of the issue is as you say "incoherent" at best. Josh says the Lieberman-Lamont battle is not "key" but that depends on what you mean by "key". We can all count. We know how many votes is a majority. We also know how the Lamont victory liberates the Dems from "not having a position on Iraq the defining political question of the day. That is exactly how the Republicans and the media played it; as such it is a defining moment where (finally) the Bush policies are directly challenged in the popular mind by the opposition party...so it is not just that Lieberman, bigshot Lieberman was toppled by nobody Lamont with the support and firepower coming from the ragtag collection of blogs and antiwar activists and progressives. It was the Republicans (predictably) who understood better than the Dems just what this meant. Money and support will actually increase to other campaigns, the more that Lamont wages a credible and inspired opposition to "wrong way" Lieberman precisely because it indicates that change is an option at the polls.

"Will the Democratic party, if the voters decide to give it power again, be able to govern, or will it be cemented in place on the left and controlled by the anti-Bush sentiments here?"

That's what I worry about as well.

The Lamont/Lieberman debate is producing a "dittohead" reaction.

Absolutely.

Soldiers died because of the Administration's repeated linking of Saddam and 9/11.

In Fiasco , Ricks stresses that our strategy of trying to encourage the population towards a democracy was inconsistent with our tactic of tough patrolling ( quite apart from the Abu Ghraib type abuses ). And on the level of the individual soldiers their excessively tough behavior often reflected their acceptance of the Administration's message that Iraq had indeed been involved in 9/11 .

And of course that behavior itself stimulated the insurgency in which they are now being killed.

To be clear , Ricks' intent is to
criticize not the troops but those responsible for that false Saddam/ 9-11
linkage.

And enabling Lieberman to undermine the Democratic Party just brings us one step closer to a one party state where if we even have two candidates on the ballot they are each focus grouped into spouting the same spin in the campaign and governing without accountability after the election.

My concern is for the middle not the extremes. I would venture to say that most Americans do not agree with the 'stay the course' or the 'cut-n-run' plans.

Which Democrats, exactly, are offering the "cut and run" plan? I missed that one... 

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Cmon, I read the piece on mydd -- you really think that represents some kind of attack on Josh?

These are front page top bloggers having a discussion. I don't think Matt Stoller holds any less respect for Josh and his writing and opinions. 

And he makes a good point -- it doesn't help to describe "tendencies," unless you don't want to give people a chance to respond. It looks way too much like a strawman.

That said, your post wasn't a "1," so I rated it up. 

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Most of the information is in "Professor Wellstone Goes to Washington: The Inside Story of a Grass Roots U.S. Senate Campaign." by Dennis J. McGrath and Dane Smith, University of Minnesota Press, 1995.

A good many people whose names you would recognize know all about this, beyond what is in McGrath and Smith's book. There is that famous trio from an early 1960's St. Louis Park High School, Norm Ornstein, Tom Friedman and that guy who is going to run in 2008 for the Wellstone Seat, Al Franken. Steve Emerson, one of Paul's former Carleton Students who offered up his living room floor for Wellstone and his campaign manager to crash and sleep when they went to DC to try and raise money in Sept 1990, well he knows all about it too. And of course all of us who put heart ahead of political conventional wisdom and worked on that fantastic campaign -- we all know about it. And Bill Hillsman would know all about it -- he had to make the ads to quickly respond to Rudy's "Bad Jew" letter four days before election day. Rabbi Shapiro's talk on Friday night, largely reprinted in the Sunday Tribune, gets right to the heart of the issue.

My Carroll Snark: 

Bush as The Red Queen:

Alice Freedom attended to all these directions, and explained, as well as she  could, that she had lost her way.

'I don't know what you mean by your way,' said the Queen: George: 'all the ways about here belong to me - but why did you come out here at all!

aMike

Are you ready for the shitstorm that Lieberman will stir up if he wins and the Democrats try to do this? Are you ready for him becoming a Republican (because the "Demoquats kicked me out") and listening to this shit for the next six years? And what if it makes the difference in control of the Senate?

If Lieberman wins, any attempt to discipline him is DOA. We can't control him now, how the hell are we going to control him after he wins?

This is a discussion we should stop having. It's a waste of our energy. We beat him now and if we don't we'll cross that bridge when the time comes. There's no advantage whatsoever in worrying about it now.

Joe Lieberman isn't a democrat. He resigned from the Democratic party to run as a "Connecticut for Joe-er" party of one.

The Democrats in Connecticut voted for Ned Lamont. If you want a real Democrat, don't settle for imitations. They're never what you expect.

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You make a good point. The last thing I want to see are the Democrats losing their backbone. I don't think that staunch supporters of Lamont are the far left. Nor do I think that staunch supporters of Lieberman are Bush-lite.

The 'centrism equals weakness' was a response to Krugman who now believes that we must behave in the same manner as Republicans in order to win. I do not agree. The Republicans will lose all by themselves this year. They've already shot themselves in the foot and in true Bushbot fashion they are aiming at the other. This is due to the rigidness of their politics.

Let's try not to place ourselves in that position.

It easy to see what they are thinking. They're thinking that if they don't go off on Joe, and Joe wins, then they'll still have the seat. If they go off on Joe, threaten to deny seniority, for example, then they may lose the seat if he wins. It doesn't matter to them that this makes it more likely that Joe will hold the seat. In Schumer's case, at least, I suspect he'd prefer Joe hold the seat; a fellow neo-con is better than an unknown quantity.

This is Josh's argument in a nutshell as well. We shouldn't waste time, money, column inches, energy on this race because the outcome leaves the seat in Dem hands in any case. Sure, all Dems should support Lieberman, but it doesn't deserve all this attention because it doesn't really matter. There are Republican fish to fry, and focusing on Lieberman distracts us from those fish. I find this argument oddly disingenuous coming from Josh. It's like he doesn't want to hear what we're saying.

Moreover, heck, why didn't he post about the self-destruction of George Felix Allen rather that this topic? If it doesn't really matter, that is?

Chris Bowers at mydd.com points out that under CT democratic party rules, Lieberman has forfeited his personal Democratic affiliation:

Prima facie evidence supporting discretionary erasure or exclusion. Enrollment in any other political party or organization, active affiliation with any other political party or organization, knowingly being a candidate at any primary or caucus of any other party or political organization, or being a candidate for office under the designation of another party or organization, within a period of two years prior to the date of the notice as provided in section 9-60 shall be prima facie evidence that any elector committing any such act is not affiliated with, or in good faith a member of, and does not intend to support the principles or candidates of the party upon the enrollment list of which his name appears or in which his application for enrollment is pending; and, upon reasonable proof of the commission of any one of such acts, the name of any such elector may be stricken or excluded from such list and such erasure or exclusion shall be effective for a period of two years from the date of any such act. The same procedure as to notice to appear thereon, return and hearing shall be followed as provided in section 9-60. If, after full hearing, such registrar and chairman or party member or such deputy registrar and chairman or party member, as the case may be, find that the name of any such elector has been wrongfully or improperly stricken or excluded from such list, such name shall be forthwith placed upon the enrollment list.

Original JP asks:

A lot of people here are missing the point of the post and are not answering Josh's questions.

There's no need to go off for several paragraphs in an effort to convince everyone that Lieberman is bad and we should want to defeat him. Everyone already agrees on that. The question is: Should we concentrate more on defeating Lieberman than on winning any other particular contested Senate race?

Yes.

Clear enough? :-)

Lieberman has been very bad for Democrats and very good for Republicans from the day he defeated Lowell Weicker, a thorn in the side of Republicans.

It matters more that a trojan horse like Lieberman is defeated than that the Democrats recapture the Senate with the help of rightwing Democrats who do little more than change the scenery and continue to ignore the needs of the country.

In my opinion of course.

Many years ago when we were living in St. Louis, the daughter of a very wealthy real estate magnate was stabbed in an attempted rape. An ambulance on its way to a Catholic hospital in the suburbs was diverted to a city hospital when the word "rape" was mentioned. The young lady nearly bled to death because of the delay that entailed.

As you might imagine there were changes made in St. Louis but the attitude of Joe Lieberman speaks to the same hypocrisy that nearly led to the death of a young woman only because she was subjected to a rape attempt.

I am certain nearly everyone here, and certainly myself, will be delighted if Ford replaces Frist in Tennessee.

The change would have huge symbolic value and that, by itself, may be of great value.

What change will there be for the victims of rapists and those intent on same?

I picked an emotionally charged issue to make a point but it is not really different for those left out by conservatives working at the behest of those most capable of providing funds.

Joe Lieberman is said to have voted with Democrats over 90% of the time. Even accepting that without quibble, it might tell you a lot about the current state of the Democratic Party.

I don't have any surprise at Josh's Lieberphilia, and I don't understand others' surprise.

That said, Okie, I really can't see the point of your comments. Josh raised a question about discussions on other blogs and folks at those other blogs responded. That's not a purge, that's engagement; indeed, it's exactly what Josh might have expected to have happen if the post was to be taken seriously. If you look at either quotation that you post they each include praise of JM.

My problem with your posts is that they use histrionic language unnecessarily to create the illusion of an intolerant popular front. I agree with MJ Rosenberg that the tactic is vaguely Stalinist. It's certainly not helpful.

And in my opinion, I agree with your opinion.

You illustrate my point beautifully. You just quote disagreement that was quite civil, however pronounced. There is no problem with that, right? Isn't that what Josh meant by, "there's a great virtue in agreeing to disagree about as many issues as possible?" We're talking about people who do not hesitate to use the word "wanker" here, and none of them have brought it to bear WRT to Josh.

My point is that the right to disagree isn't reserved for those of centrist dispositions.

Josh, I respect your views and agree that a certain degree of overhyping has plagued the recent Lamont-Loserman race. When the MSM started chiming in, and every beltway pundit felt the need to air their pompous take on the contest, things started getting ridiculous.

However, I'm a Connecticut voter who supports Lamont living in a town full of Liebercrats and Republicans. I know that we still face tough odds and big money problems. We need the aid and attention of anyone and everyone who can help.

I also have a cousin currently deployed in Iraq. His brigade has lost 3 men KIA, 4 wounded to IEDs in the last three months (what passes for a "safe" area in the Shia south). So I can't let go of this race even though I'd like to sometimes. It's just too important.

So please remember this does involve the Iraq occupation and that American and Iraqi lives are at stake. I think that's worth a few extra pixels and seconds of attention. Your eyeballs may squint, your fingers may ache, your brain may get confounded, but that's not too much to ask.

My cousin just sent home a picture of a fellow soldier holding a temperature gauge - it read 140 degrees. Try to imagine wearing body armor and trying to fight in that.

Did Bush get a bump? His polls as I understand them are consistently in the dumpster, bumping along the low thirties.

The media is constantly trumpeting and celebrating any bush achievement, and pundits are constantly claiming that the Bush rebound is about to happen.

Sadly no. I think that sheer media hype of stunts like this may temporarily charge him a little, like a syringe injection of pure heroin.

But each time, the surge is less and fades more quickly. It keeps getting lower and lower. He has to keep increasing the dose to get any kind of boost, and it lasts less and less.

The overall trend of his poll numbers is endlessly downward. What's most interesting is the constantly diminishing impact of his blipvert events, and the desperation of the media to distract us from the growing dislike.

In a few months, he'll be down to his twenties. Trust me.

And then a rally will simply put him into the higher twenties for two days at the most.

In 2008, he'll be in his teens. And there will be no more rallies. He'll slink out of the white house.

Thanks for your reassuring reply. Yes, I heard on the news that some poll or other had him at 44%. I wonder if I am spending too much time here, where most people think pretty much the same way I do. Anyway, I hope you're right, and this bump, if real is short-lived. It doesn't answer my basic question though.

Who are these people that change their minds based on these news stories that say nothing that would make any rational person believe that Bush has suddenly become good at what he does? I mean, these are people, who seemingly realized he was incompetent LAST WEEK, right? Sheeeeesh!

Jan Knaus

"The real world is quite different from coloring books."

But TPM Cafe is little different from 6th grade, it seems.

Anyway, I don't see much substance to what you say other than trying to impress people that you claim to know something about races in multiple states. Yes, every real world race has complicating factors. All the same, the left of the party brought this fight on, you need to see it through to have any credibility. It's the only primary you've won. You better fight like hell to win the election, don't you think?

Americans are very inscrutable. The Orient has nothing on you people.

jan,

don't worry, be happy.

the trend is

down

down

down

:-)

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Gee, I was kind of hoping for some slithy toves, or at the least some literary snarks.

heh.

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You have ALL my slithy toves.  Every single one.  I hid them under the chortle because I heard it rumored there was a  frumious Bandersnatch lurking in the neighborhood.  Turns out it was only Joe Klien, but I thought still indiscretion was the better part of valium valor.   <snicker>

aMike

Your description of the DLC as the middle is inaccurate though popular. There was never really any effort to mask the effort to make remake Democrats into me-too Republicans.

Here here. The DLC is halfway between moderate and insane.