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A Detector Or A Pony?

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Frequent comment troll Al wants to know what I think of Rep. Bennie G. Thompson (D-MS)'s view that "this Administration needs to move expeditiously to develop and install next generation explosive detection technologies with the ability to detect lethal materials like those involved in the British plot." Well, I think that's obviously posturing and empty rhetoric rather than a real proposal. If someone has a serious idea about effective explosive scanners, though, I'd be interesting in looking at it.


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If someone has a serious idea about effective explosive scanners, though, I'd be interesting in looking at it.

I don't think there is one...

 

If we rely on machines to prevent an attack, as that attack is beginning, we will just end up being victims of another catastrophic attack.  Experts had been warning about an attack using a liquid explosive agent like "Mother of Satan" for a long time and we address it only now?  Tells me we have to go after the "who" and not the "how"...because the "who" will figure out a different "how" which we will have failed to "think of" yet.

It depends on what you mean by "effective." If that means full security with no inconvenience at low cost, that's not going to happen.

But there's plenty of technology out there that needs to be tested, it's just that we're not testing it.

Have questions about the Cafe? Try here.

A pony !

At least, they are cute and cuddly and kids can have a great time with them.

The whole premise of making airport safe against well organized terrorists is a complete crook.

Luggage searches are useless. If someone wants to slip a small bomb in a plane, he can simply hide it inside his body. I spare you the details but it works for drug smugglers on “small” quantities : “small” as in “up to a few pounds”. If you are serious about stopping bombs, you need to pass every single passenger through tomography. Yes, X-ray for everybody from head to toes ...

As for looking for specific chemical compositions in well camouflaged luggage, there are 2 ways. If the suspect material outgases or oozes by-products (such as nitrate-based explosives), the swipes and an analyzer on the side already work. It just a matter of knowing what you are looking for. If the suspect material is chemically inert (C4 explosive for instance, dunno about those liquid compounds), you are out of luck and you need to look at very special systems : nuclear magnetic resonance, neutron or X-ray scattering, neutron activation and God only knows what. Ain’t gonna happen. It’s worth searching and testing new ideas but there is no magic bullet.

Anyway, airport security is meant to stop the random psychotic idiot driven by his own personal demons who suddenly decides to highjack, crash or blow-up a plane and tries to get in with a gun or a grenade. There is nothing to stop competent terrorists once they’ve reached the gate but basic searches, a bit of psychology and a great deal of luck. The rest is feel-good crap.

No, you can't have your own facts!

Frequent comment troll Al

I'll interpret that in the best possible light.

But you say in your article the following:

there's good reason to be very skeptical of terrorism-prevention schemes in general...

Money spent securing airplanes against unlikely attacks with exotic explosives might well be better spent on conventional crime-fighting strategies -- more police, better supervision of parolees, more drug treatment, etc. At a minimum, it makes sense to channel terrorism security money into "dual-use" activities. Better surveillance or more law-enforcement personnel in mass transit would help reduce terrorism and ordinary crime.

How to square the above with your interest in effective explosive scanners? If we were able to make effective explosive scanners, would you in favor of spending money on "terrorism-protection schemes" involving such scanners? Or would you still object to spending money on "securing airplanes against unlikely attacks with exotic explosives" and, in lieu of buying lots of new scanners, spend the money on "conventional crime-fighting strategies"?

And lets not limit this to theoretical scanners. What other Homeland Security expenditures would be better spent on "conventional crime-fighting strategies"? Enquiring minds want to know.

The problem with bomb scanning technology is that there are just so many different ways of making bombs;(Especially if you include incendinaries and chemical weapons.) If you know how the bomb scanner works, you can pretty much always come up with a bomb chemistry it won't notice. And the uber-scanner that could find them all would have to,

1. Be so incredibly invasive that there'd be medical warnings about the dangers of frequent flying, and pregnant women would be urged to take the train. I mean, how often do you want to be neutron activation analysed in any given year?

2. Have to sort through that flood of data so thuroughly and intelligently that it would require a breakthrough in artificial intelligence, to figure out that components in two or more different passenger's luggage could be mixed to make an explosive.

Seriously, maybe we should think about switching to smaller planes, to make the "payoff" from downing one plane too little to bother with.

i stayed out of the airline security thread, but i do need to go Al one further here: he is not a troll (even if he interprets the phrase in its best light).

now, he is often wrong in his judgements (which is to say that i only agree with him on sports) and he sometimes employs trollish tactics, but really, in a blogosphere full of real jerk commenters who deserve the term "troll," Al doesn't begin to rate....

I there such a creature as a "rare comment troll"? Sounds like a cute endangered subspecies.

I am not sure if the "whos" will invent radically different "hows".

My favorite, if gruesome comparison: a "death cult" in Japan spend a lot of effort to produce poison gas, released it in Tokio subway and killed three people (or was it four?). A deranged Korean set a can of gasolize of fire in a Korean subway train and the resulting fire and fumes killed 100 people. If tour twisted goal if to kill many people, any people, technological inventiveness is not the best direction to go.

A couple months ago some kid near Atlanta managed to take a tanker truck for a joyride. Think about it: how lethal 30 tons of gasoline can be? Detonate two such monsters at two ends of a suspension bridge during a rush hour --- can a sufficiently violent fire set a chain reaction of gas tanks getting hot and detonating?

The problem with fancy chemicals is that there is a lot of things that can go wrong. Combining chemicals? I am afraid that this is usually more involved than just pouring liquid from one bottle to another. A premature explosion can spill most of the stuff with paltry damage. Or you can spill it outright during a turbulence. Or chemicals will not be ezactly right.

He's been somewhat less trollish lately, howard, but there's a long, long prior history of trolling that isn't overturned by a few months of just being a standard jackass. I know you guys are soccer buddies and all, but don't forget his record.

I am not sure if the "whos" will invent radically different "hows".

 

So for discussion's sake...do you think they will stop planning attacks even if we figure out how to completely safeguard commercial airliners?  They will move from planes to trains and automobiles.  That is why going after the "who's" is the best tactic...just pay attention to who visits Pakistan and monitor communications to and from that country.  Use a bit of old fashioned "police work"... 

not enough comment troll-maids, so reproduction rate is insufficient. Restocking from troll farms is necessary, but farm trolls lack the hardiness of the wild types.

Depends what you mean by technological inventiveveness. There's a principle that applies to this thread, to threads about assorted rogue countries buiding their own nuclear-tipped ICBMs, etc. There are reasons that large national militaries, even allowing for the problems of doing it the first time, use expensive, heavily staffed laboratories and engineering groups.

To take your "death cult" example, which was Aum Shinyo, they did manage to make impure sarin (agent GB). While they had a chemical warfare agent that could have had significant lethality, they utterly screwed up the means of getting it out of containers and, as a vapor, into the air. They also tried an anthrax aerosol attack on humans, and again missed a key piece: they didn't know if their strain of Bacillus anthracis made humans sick. The attack would, however, been disastrous to the cattle population of Tokyo.

For whatever reasons, the terrorists have been pretty crude in their weapons. This is not, however, to say that there's a technological detector for every threat, even with the obsession with airline security. In the last few days, I've seen horrified news reports of threats, which would have left anyone with freshman chemistry in hysterical giggles.

As far as detection systems making sense, it may take more background to suggest why something is not a universal detector, but not a huge amount. Essentially all the chemical detectors around are limited to nitrate-based explosives, not incendiaries, not explosives based on other chemical families, not poisons, not radioactives. To be able to analyze arbitrary threats in the seconds available for passenger screening, with one or two instruments, and people not trained to be chemical lab technicians, goes beyond bad science fiction into space opera.

Where is E.E. "Doc" Smith when you need him? Yes, a Lensman at every departure screening station, checking minds, while the Rigellian assistance use the "sense of perception" to look inside every package and body. Unfortunately, even the Rigellians, without further training, don't know what they are trying to find.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

If the suspect material is chemically inert (C4 explosive for instance, dunno about those liquid compounds), you are out of luck and you need to look at very special systems : nuclear magnetic resonance, neutron or X-ray scattering, neutron activation and God only knows what.
Nitrate residue detectors probably would get plastic explosives, such as C-4 or Semtex, that hadn't been thoroughly sealed. Otherwise, one could observe they look and feel like several cheeses, and cheeses can be quite well wrapped.
You're right with some of the equipment, although quite conservative; I'd probably pick a gas chromatograph coupled to a mass spectrometer with a good database engine is one of the primary devices. Certainly one needs to look for radioactives, so throw in a multispectral scintillometer, and perhapse ELISA for biological tests.
And who is going to run this? Minimum wage screening technicians?
As you know, these instruments detect the hazardous chemical only if it's in a place that can be examined. Ask a few prison guards about places things can be secreted, a few intelligence agency technical support people about how lethal things can be made useful, and ask Pamela Anderson how much of a suspicious liquid she used to carry around before having the silicone removed. -- Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

On the other hand, functional NMR scanning based lie detectors are starting to look promising. In a few years it *might* be possible to just ask passengers if they're carrying anything dangerous. Wouldn't do any good in the case of ignorant mules, though.

Interesting idea. Of course, having multiple fMRI (NMR) machines, each with extremely large magnets, brings an entirely new perspective to "please remove metal objects from your person before going through screening".

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

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