Some Questions/Points on Terror Plot
Like Josh, I do think this is probably the real deal, which leads to a series of questions that ought to be unearthed relatively soon.
1)When U.S. counterterrorism officials said that this one is the "real deal" (their words, not mine), what wasn't the real deal? There has been a lot of concern about their crying wolf, and is this their admission that they may have thought the same (i.e. that pesky Miami plot?) 2)As someone from DOJ, I am curious about the trigger event today. I have a theory: there is clearly a disconnect between the months of this investigation and how seemingly unprepared the TSA is today. My suspicion is that the Brits may have lost track of some of those folks they were tracking, and they got nervous. Press accounts suggest that they had NOT bought airline tickets yet, so the question of imminency is a big one? 3)Like Ivo, I agree this is a good news/bad news day. Good news -- a plot was disrupted. Bad news -- we clearly have done little to disrupt the threat, whether it is al qaeda, homegrown, or all the above. As I discuss here in a piece for Sunday, the Democrats ought not to run scared of this basic fact, especially since Bush has not postponed a fundraiser.















Exactly. Not only should they not run scared (for once), this is the point the Democrats should be hitting hard and fast, starting about six hours ago. The Iraq War has done nothing to decrease the threat of Islamist terrorism.
August 10, 2006 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
You raise good issues on all three points, but I feel that you are mischaracterizing the 'real deal' quote. This article puts the full quote as:
"This is not a case of wanna-bes fantasizing about an attack. We believe it was the real deal. To target multiple airlines with such a plan requires a sophistication that strongly points to al Qaeda," a senior U.S. official told Stewart.
The 'real deal' refers to the seriousness of the those trying to commit the act- if someone is sitting around trying but failing to commit terror, they should be held just as accountable as someone trying and succeeding.
August 10, 2006 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
How exactly do we "disrupt" the threat?
One of the consequences in living in an open society is that if somebody truly goes to great pains to achieve a terrible feat, they have a good chance of succeeding.
Why wasn't the Columbine massacre detected earlier? Or the WTC 1993 bombing? Or the Oklahoma City bombing?
Let's not politicize this issue any more than it already is. Let's rejoice that a highly orchestrated plot was dismantled.
August 10, 2006 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
ABC News has gotten a little bit on that from someone:
The Anatomy of the Foiled Plot in London
August 10, 2006 9:47 AM
Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report
excerpts
Many of the alleged terror plotters appeared to be of Pakistani descent.
According to a Department of Homeland Security briefing to the aviation sector, the terrorists appear to have planned to use multiple persons aboard each flight to assemble peroxide-based liquid or gel high explosives....
According to federal authorities, two or three bombers would each carry a separate portion of the bomb onto the plane to avoid detection. Once onboard the bomb would be assembled and then detonated by using heat or friction.
British authorities had been tracking some of the suspects for several weeks but stepped in to round up the plotters when they began to book flight reservations and before any of the suspects purchased tickets.
British authorities have shared parts of the investigation with the FBI, and out of concern for leaks, only the barest details were shared with regional authorities as late as last night.
Now there is a continued concern that other members of the cell remain on the loose and may remain a present danger to intercontinental air traffic as well as air traffic in Europe....
August 10, 2006 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
While this may well be the "real deal", I want to know how long the Bush Administration has known about this plot. Did they knew about it far enough in advance of Joe Lieberman's loss the other day to devise the well-coordinated PR campaign that they are engaged in now trying again to paint the Dems as weak on terror? Today's events certainly help them "catapult the propaganda",as Dear Leader would say. And if they have known about this plot for some time, what measures did they take in advance to warn airlines or to raise security to protect innocent travellers on the airlines?
August 10, 2006 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
This might be a good point for dems to stress (or even for Ms. Kayyem to bring up if she is to appear on MSNBC again :-))
August 10, 2006 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if any of this has to do with the Eleven (or was it Thirteen) Egyptian Students who went missing in late July. They were, apparently, expected in Montana for Summer School, and were no-shows. They found one in Minneapolis a few days ago -- and perhaps a few others. But why would a few Foreign Students missing from Montana make the national news?
As the plot has been spun out in the news thusfar, it looks like a slightly revised edition of the Bojinka plot of January 1995, which ultimately led to the capture and trial of Ramzi Yousef for both the 1993 WTC bombing, and the Bojinka conspiracy. One would have thought defensive precautions against this model plot would have long been in place. Richard Clarke's book as well as Steve Simon and Daniel Benjamin's "The Age of Sacred Terror" have quite detailed descriptions of Bojinka.
August 10, 2006 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The 'real deal' refers to the seriousness of the those trying to commit the act- if someone is sitting around trying but failing to commit terror, they should be held just as accountable as someone trying and succeeding."
There is a world of difference between people sitting around discussing how they would commit a terrorist act and people actively pursueing doing so, by testing explosives, acquiring explosives, learning to fly jetliners, accepting training in explosives, conducting dry runs, etc. I don't think we know if the British group was a bunch of talkers or a bunch of doers. And, for now, all we know is what our highly suspect governments are telling us. Also, our laws don't treat those who discuss committing crimes the same way they treat those who actually commit crimes, nor are people who are practicing their bank robbing skills, for example, treated the same as those who rob banks. If our laws did treat them the same, all of the paint ball enthusiasts would be under arrest for conspiring to wage war.
Hoppy in Sacramento
August 10, 2006 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe "Zel" Lieberman lost in Connecticut so the right wing needed a "terrorist" plot to put the fear back in their base.
If you believe all the news stories today, they got what they needed. The British arrested some Muslims who were plotting to do us harm.
I'm cynical about this administration. Cynical enough to believe they would cook something like this up for political effect. That said, the British authorities are light years ahead of our "Homeland Security" farce. So maybe these guys WERE actually planning something or talking about planning something.
If this is genuine, congratulations to the British intelligence folks. If it isn't genuine, shame on Bush and all the liars in his adminstration again.
The truth will come out eventually. All the truth about EVERYTHING that has happened. I may not live to see it but maybe my kids will know all the facts which led us to where we are today.
I do know this truth: George W. Bush is the worst president in American history. Whether or not a few Muslims in London were actually plotting or not.
August 10, 2006 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's assume for the minute that they are the real deal - I'm as skeptical as the next guy, but because three governments were involved, and crucially, because ours was the third wheel, perhaps I'm incluned to give this one the benefit of the doubt. Looking at those terrorist cells disrupted in the U.S. and those caught (or discovered after the fact) in Europe, the former are notable for their lack of sophistication. Only half, by my count, of the 'Islamic terrorists' caught in the U.S. appear to be actual adherents of Islam. Further, all seem to be sort of disaffected dreamers who, despite their ideological strains, seem to have more in common with the sort of white supremacist extremist elements than with hardcore Al Qaeda. (The group out in the Northwest was known for going to shoot cans in the desert, and somehow they made it all the way to China before they figured out that this wasn't a viable route to Afghanistan).
My question is just this: why the difference? There have been suggestions that it's because the U.S. is more fertile ground for moderate Islam (see this piece by Spencer Ackerman). Others have suggested that it's more that Europe has done a poor job of assimilating immigrants. But might it have to do with the differing traditions of extremism, and the lack of a tradition of competent, cohesive political violence here?
I dunno where I'm going with this - it just strikes me today.
August 10, 2006 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Real deal or not, it should be more freighting to Americans that Cheney, Leiberman, Melman, and Bush are giving high fives to each other today.
The Dems need to be explicit that these cynical bastards see political gains— and their only chance of success— from the fear caused by terrorists acts against Americans.
Americans do not and should not trust this unscrupulous nest of Republican vipers.
August 10, 2006 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anonymous White House official:
Classy.
Have questions about the Cafe? Try here.
August 10, 2006 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Classy.
Yes, one thing you can say about this administration:
THEY HAVE A LOT OF CLASS --
BUT IT'S ALL LOW
Jan Knaus
August 10, 2006 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
What struck me this evening, watching the BBC Nightly News, was how much different the reaction was in Britain -- I'm assuming now this was indeed a "real deal" -- than it would have been in the US. The reaction came from intelligence, Scotland Yard, local police forces and (in Walthamstow and High Wycombe) city officials.
It seemed sane, focused, measured, efficient. Unlike what we've seen here. For the cynics (and my own pleasure) I posted at my place some excerpts from a Lewis Lapham satire in the latest Harper's about the enormous successes of George Bush. I recommend reading the whole thing in Harper's or, failing that, the excerpts, for a good ol' bitter laugh.
And then a quote from Fassbinder: "In the last analysis, terrorism is an idea generated by capitalism to justify better defense measures to safeguard capitalism."
August 10, 2006 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank God (not that I believe) in humor. Perpective is a great thing.
August 10, 2006 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I commend to you an observation by one of Spider Robinson's fictional characters: If a burglar is one who commits burglary, then God must be an iron, as She seems to have had a particular drive for irony in the human species.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
August 10, 2006 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Republicans celebrate every time terrorists plot against America. They gloat over our national disasters, expecting it means electoral benefits for them.
The GOP is dancing on the rooftops at evidence that terrorists are still plotting to kill Americans.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone
August 10, 2006 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me "preface" this with I dunno where I am going it it, either. :-)
But remember how the London tube bombings started out being reported as a possible al Qaeda job because there were several guys involved who traveled to Pakistan? I remember lots of articles with reporters trying to pull the strings together with relationships/trips to Pakistan.
AND THEN, as the investigation went further, the story became more and more that it was just a homegrown job, just disgruntled underclass Muslims being unable to assimilate, not sophisticated enough to be al Qaeda, yadda, yadda? And lots of stories to that effect followed, and many gleaned from that that al Qaeda was dead, that there was no organization directing this. (Then the Paris riots, and the Danish cartoons stories came after that, so there was more and more about that theme?)
BUT THEN, a year later, this happened:
It WAS an al Qaeda-involved job afterall!
When I first read that, I thought that the fact that they waited a year to play that tape, almost seems an effort to make the British intel look impotent and foolish, almost a taunt. It's obvious the cellular/spiderweb structure is still there, even if Zawahiri got the suicide tape way after the fact. It makes me pause now when I read arguments such as the British government is going overboard with some of the more radical British mosques and breaching civil liberties for no cause.
August 10, 2006 8:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I reacll that one of the news articles I read this morning stated rather definitively that it did not have to do with the Egyptian students story. I don't remember where, sorry, so I can't furnish a link, but you could do a keyword search on google news if interested.
August 10, 2006 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Event when it is over your fences, on other lands,
treat the green green grass’s home as your friend.
It keeps the weeds from advancing to you.
--------------------------------------------------------
Today, are we searching for I deals or Ideals?
-Thinking
August 10, 2006 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been thinking along the same lines. I can't prove it, but it is worth at least mentioning that the whole beat-the-beehive-with-a-stick approach might be part of a plot to keep Republicans in power. It goes like this 1) you infuriate the enemy so much that they react violently. Once they do and commit some atrocity against us or our "special friends", then you shout that we must strike back hard and be afraid and if a Democrat rejects that approach to "fighting terrorism" then they are labeled as WEAK on NATIONAL SECURITY, CUT-AND-RUN ARTISTS, SYMPATHETIC TO OSAMA, ANTISEMITIC etc. Rove --under this scenario--has found a perfect way to keep Republicans in power: keep the American people in fear by continuing to strike the beehive and getting a predictable response.
It is BAD for AMERICA and BAD for the World, but it keeps the miserable Republicans in office a little longer.
Rove is considered Brilliant by many, but anyone who would utilize this kind of strategy is definitely unpatriotic, immoral, and unworthy of praise-and-awe as the MSM is wont to heap upon him. In the long run, after running America completely into the ground the American people will finally realize what it was all about with the Republicans and they will have to slither back under the rocks whence they came
August 10, 2006 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
So it is now clear that the White House was informed of the impending bust a week before it occurred and knew the actual timing even more precisely. So its natural response was to figure out how to get maximum political gain...after all this is national security an important card in their game. So they go to a full-court press on lieberman's defeat to try to use that as one approach to painting the Dems as weak on terror (Chency and Lieberman going so far as saying it sends an encouraging sign to al Qaeda that the US no longer is fighting terrorists. What would an actual REPUBLICAN defeat tell al Qaeda? Presumably they can just walk in and take the keys of the government from the traitors and kill Americans at their leisure). Now the point I am trying to make here is that there is no line so low that the Republicans won't cross it to win an election. They take it seriously. It is after all their money at stake here. While Reid and Schumer are working on the best response to a Lamont victory and a Lieberman challenge, the Republicans are already in battle fatigues (no, I don't mean they are willing to risk body and limb), with long knives out, going for the jugular. Maybe, just maybe, our Democratic Party leaders might begin expecting the worst from our opponents, because even then they will be underestimating the depths they are willing to go.
August 11, 2006 3:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Corvid
All we know about this is what we are being fed by the British and American authorities, whose credibility is utterly lacking, especially on this broad subject. It's fine for Josh and others to say they think this is the real deal, but as far as I can tell that opinion is based on the same crummy info the rest of us are getting from the usual discredited sources.
What we need is a very aggressive, questioning response. The media need to go out and do some legwork on this, rather than just scribble down what the authorities say. Is this like the arrests in Miami, when the media's first-day coverage was all panicky about the Sears Tower being targeted? Those guys weren't much more than a muttly collection of hopeless, now mostly forgotten, mopes.
This operation in Britain could still be the real thing. But consider the sources and the motives of the pols who are, ultimately, the gatekeepers to everything we know, or think we know.
August 11, 2006 7:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um... no, actually I don't. I'm afraid you are allowing your prejudices to rewrite history for you.
Underclass: "the lowest social stratum, usually composed of the disadvantaged"
from Wikipedia
Only one of the 4 London bombers could with any justification be described as being part of an "underclass". And I don't think being a member of the local football and cricket teams indicates much of an inability to assimilate.
If I sound snarky it is because I have come to find very tedious the Horowitzian meme that infects both left and right in this country, that all over racist Europe Muslims are treated as second class citizens (if citizens at all), as opposed to the great welcoming melting pot of the US.
Things are not that simple.
August 11, 2006 7:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Something doesn't add up.
The US and UK authorities have know about these guys for months and been watching them. Yet on the day that they arrest them the entire civil aviation system is thrown into a panic with planes being grounded and a new series of ad hoc regulations been put in place.
So which is it, they knew about the plot in which case why weren't better security measures put into place earlier? Or they didn't know about the plot, where the "they" is the aviation security forces. In which case the police and the homeland security departments of both the US and the UK are still not talking to each other.
And what's with all the new regulations? Indiscriminate screening of people and banning of benign material makes no sense. How many women with a toiletry kit are really going to be plane hijackers? It's almost as if the authorities are doing the most they can to disrupt normal travel just to put the concept of "terrorism" back into the mind of the public.
They wouldn't do that would they?
--- Policies not Politics
Daily Landscape
August 11, 2006 7:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're not giving Art her due - I didn't hear her saying that this was the true story, that this was the factual account that was available, but that the pop-sociology news spin on things was such. I don't think that's far off base - that's how I remember the spin, as well.
August 11, 2006 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently so,.
They even planned a fund raiser. What they did not do was set any security measures in place in America despite that advance knowledge...they planned a political strategy session instead to ensure they would remain in power ...because in the end..THAT's what matters most to them...not the country not our lives, not national SECURITY just them holding on to their political power.
August 11, 2006 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
It (7/7) WAS an al Qaeda-involved job afterall! artappraiser
What makes you think so? There's nothing on the tape to suggest it.
August 11, 2006 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
What wasn't the real deal? How about a few months ago when they busted a bunch of geeks who were playing GI Joe in their backyards?
thosethingswesay.blogspot.com
August 11, 2006 11:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point taken.
August 14, 2006 7:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
India, with a Muslim population greater than the entire population of Pakistan, doesn't seem to have home-grown problems. The recent attacks probably came from Pakistan or Kashmir.
While there is sectarian violence, it tends to involve Hindus or Sikns. What are the Indians doing right?
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
August 14, 2006 7:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or at any rate, what are the Indian Muslims doing right.
August 14, 2006 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink