There seem to be differences of opinion as to who is the tail and who is the dog when it comes to Israeli military vs the politicians. Some think that Halutz is dragging the reluctant, inexperienced civilian leadership along, others think that the same politicians have been pushing the military in order to give themselves street cred.

Could be that both viewpoints are true.

None the less, the following OpEd from Yedioth Ahronot reveals that the former peacenik, Amir Peretz, has issued instructions to the IDF that undermine Israeli assertions about taking utmost care with the lives of civilians:

"The most pressing question I have is: Did the government, the army, the political echelon and the media not take to blind cheerleading, a move that served only the enemy?

The question came up when I heard Defense Minister Amir Peretz explain proudly that he had removed limits on the IDF regulating warfare in areas where civilians live alongside Hizbullah soldiers.

I can understand accidentally hurting civilians while fighting a war. But explicit instructions about the civilian population in south Lebanon and the Shiite neighborhoods in Beirut is a rash, fool-hardy action that invited disaster."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284260,00.html

Good cogent views from Zbig on the counter productive consequences from the iron fist approach:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-gardels/beginning-of-the-end-for-_b_26247.html

If it does, then we're all screwed. Every man jack of us.

Unfortunately, it's hard to see who will agree to send troops to either border. I don't think anyone else wants to monitor Hezbollah and occupy Lebanon any more than the Israelis do. If no one steps up, perhaps it may again fall to the UN, who can put together some soldiers from developing countries? But Israel hardly seems likely to accept that option, even after a face-saving final ground push to the Litani River.

...their missile and rocket launchers into the Qana neighborhood to fire from that location at Israel?

If you read your own link (it's very short) you'll find out that the photos are not from Qana but from Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut.

And if you look at the photos, you'll see that these are the photos of an anti-aircraft gun.

You don't use anti-aircraft gun to fire at Israel, you use it to fire at Israeli planes that bomb this particular neighborhood.

Enough bullshit, please.

Well... for one, we should use our non-partisan powers of observation to see who is spinning what. The US media outlets, can/have/and are currently downplaying Israeli casualties inflicted by Hezbollah militants and rocket fire. We'll hear how the Israeli’s are on the offensive, and the voice of passivism pervades the airwaves with cease-fire cries.

Mary from R.I put the truth out there, as a matter of fact, there have been photos circulated of militia [Hezbollah] in heavily populated areas with RPG's... they are actively using the their own population for an Israeli response litmus test... to [essentially] attempt to sway world opinion that their cause is anything less than benevolent; to which anyone can clearly see this manipulation. Who do they think they are fooling other than ignorant pacifists, who in the end want to be deceived anyhow? They are killing their own by these actions -- there is no hiding it!

You said it abb1! You can sway the truth only to those who need it to be something other than what it is... they'll buy it! But no right thinking person will give you the time of day.

Haaratz, it would do you well to listen the reports from non-open sources... by the time Israel mounted a response to Hezbollah's provocative action, media had pretty much openly ignored the fact that Hezbollah had already launched over 66 150 lbs. rockets in Israel, now they are dropping 250 lbs. [plus] ordinance deeper into the country, their capabilities have been downplayed as usual; but I suppose this is all good to you, huh? All this before Israel mounted their official defensive.

This conflict is a blessing in disguise, who better to take it to these radical Islami-Fascists and make a visible dent in their infrastructure... all we need do is support Israel in her pursuit of these extremists... and back them militarily when we need to. You cannot wage war on a tactic, but you can kill the tacticians. Let Israel take them out.

Sorry... Bush was right, better to fight them there... then to fight them here.

Just too bad we have American citizens without the backbone and where-with-all to be clear on this matter.

One this is for certain, do not be deceived... there will never be peace in the middle-east. But there can be quite with a foot in the ass, let Israel insert shoe into vertical crevice! They know how to fight them better than we do anyhow. They have already effectively neutralized over 75% of their war waging capability, and that accounts [by CIA estimations] for about 50% of their governing effectiveness [influence]... however [this is the reason why platonic democracy sucks] 12 years ago when Israel and Lebanon were at it but withdrawing -- 82% of the Lebanese did not support Hezbollah, now almost the same 82% say they support Hezbollah. Sorry... folks - mob rules are for ignorant fools; no peace... full military occupation until western style economic development can defuse the fascist strangle-hold these war-lords have over their own people. That is the only way you can kill that lie...

Oh, sorry... forgot, the Europeans.

-That Darn Republican

I would be suprised to see a cease fire anytime soon. I just think the whole reason Hezbollah chose this time for the conflict was to grind the Israli military down the same way Iraq has ground down our military. It looks like Israel has fallen right into the trap. The operations they are conducting must be costing a fortune. And now, for the Lebaneese government to survive, someone will have to repair the damage over there. Who will pay for that? Who ever does will then be the new owner of Lebanon. Iran has lots of money.

Mary from R.I put the truth out there, as a matter of fact, there have been photos circulated of militia [Hezbollah] in heavily populated areas with RPG's...

media had pretty much openly ignored the fact that Hezbollah had already launched over 66 150 lbs. rockets in Israel, now they are dropping 250 lbs. [plus] ordinance deeper into the country, their capabilities have been downplayed as usual; but I suppose this is all good to you, huh? All this before Israel mounted their official defensive.

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Thanks for the reminder. Lord knows I don't know much about guns, but I could tell on my own that the gun in the first three pix wasn't exactly heavy artillery, let alone a missile launcher. Just didn't know what it was, until you mentioned antiaircraft, which was enough to jog the memory - yeah, I *have* seen them things before. Thanks for clearing that up.

And of course pix 4 and 5 were small arms. BFD.

There may be some tactical misunderstandings here. Katyusha is more of a general term for Russian rockets; the original Katyusha was a WWII design, originally a 48-tube truck-mounted 132mm launcher that was intended to be used in mass fires of at least a battalion of 18 trucks. Assume that will devastate unprotected targets in a square kilometer.

While there are a huge number of variants and intermediate forms, the most common fUSSR artillery rocket is the 122mm GRAD, which, while slightly smaller than the original Katyusha, is more effective. In the Red Army, it again was deployed in battalions of 18 truck-mounted 40-tube launchers. There were a few larger launchers, and some smaller ones for air-droppable vehicles used by paratroops.

What is the likely variant here is the single-rocket 9K132 Grad-P variant, which is a simple ramp that can be set up and disassembled quickly. This is intended much more for guerilla-style harrassment -- and, much as people may complain about the "intensity", by regular military standards, this is harrassing fire.

My speculation is that they aren't using dedicated rocket launching trucks, but pickups or other small trucks with a couple of ramps and a supply of the rockets. Realistically, you'd have one or two people set up one or more ramps, then need 2-3 people to position the rocket on each ramp, and back away to avoid the exhaust. Especially if they decided to discard the ramp, they could be in the truck when they push the firing button.

The US Army M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS), more advanced than the GRAD, is a fully tracked armored vehicle, that will be moving 30 seconds after firing. On a modern battlefield, waiting much longer than that means you will die.

The Israelis have one or more versions of the US Firefinder radar, AN/TPS-36 or -37. This radar detects the rocket shortly after it leaves the ramp, and backtracks to compute the launch point while the rocket (or cannon shell) is still in the air. In the US Army, the launcher coordinates are sent electronically to waiting 155mm M109A6 howitzers or M270 MLRS, which, with competent crews, will often have counterfire in the air before the rocket hits. Army artillerymen call their doctrine "shoot and scoot", which is the only way to survive against an enemy with comparable counterbattery (counter-artillery) electronics and weapons.

Typically, the counterfire will use cluster munitions to spread over a wide area, increasing the probability of hitting the enemy rocket launcher or cannon. Iraqi cannon typically fired once and were destroyed within minutes.

Israeli censorship makes it unclear what tactics are being used, which should be extremely obvious to Hezbollah. It is possible they aren't using counterbattery artillery, but instead using fighter-bombers. That would be considered very dubious by the US, because unless the aircraft is close to the launch site, it can't get there as fast as counterbattery, and there's a good chance the enemy can escape.

Fighter-bombers were effective against recognizable Iraqi artillery pieces moving on roads, but they won't know which pickup truck has weapons.

Yes, the US used tactical air extensively against a regular army in 1991, and the Israelis seem to be using it as a primary attack mode. Against systems like 9K132 Grad-P, it's questionable if the aircraft can react fast enough to kill the launcher, and may simply be bombing where the launcher was, not where it is.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Here's a video taken by an Israeli aircraft of Hezbollah firing missiles from Qana to hit ground targets in northern Israel [link removed]

And anti-aircraft guns can be used to hit the ground.

You can check wikipedia or google on the subject of ground targets anti-aircraft guns, google on katushas as well.. educate yourself ...

instead of concocting frivolous excuses to hide your ignorance.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Signed the petition

Sent it on

Thanks for directing me to it 

Mike

Where are your concerns for the Israeli women and children in the towns in Northern Israel when 2,500 rockets were rained down upon them? If you can dismiss their lives, then perhaps you are as cavalier about the innocent Lebanese and Palestinians who die in this bloody conflict.

To be even-handed in one's approach to civilian casualties one has to recognize that:

a) if Hezbollah is purposely using civilians as human shields that is a war crime; and

b) if Israel recognizing Hezbollah's conduct as such nonetheless takes military action which will lead disproportionately to the deaths of those human shields that is also a war crime.

The law on that is perfectly clear.

Contrary to Mary's intemperate comment, I hear a lot for currency being given to the entirely false notion that Hezbollah's crimes give Israel some kind of carte blance to kill Lebanese civilians.

Further contrary to Mary's intemperate comment, I don't hear a lot of people suggesting that Israeli civilian deaths are legitimised by Israel's conduct.

That's a callous straw man dragged out by those attempting to rationalize their relative disdain for innocent Lebanese versus innocent Israeli lives.

Thanks for pointing me to this article.  The link didn't seem to work but I found it on the Huffington Post main page without difficulty.  It is a good read, and full of wisdom, mho.  I like this section especially:

[Brzezinski:]When Iraqi Prime Minister (Jawad) al-Maliki recently harshly criticized Israel in the Lebanon conflict, it was an indication of things to come. The notion that the U.S. was going to get a pliant, democratic, stable, pro-American, Israel-loving Iraq is a myth which is rapidly eroding. That is why the U.S. needs to start talking with the Iraqis about the day of our disengagement. We shouldn't leave precipitously. U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Zalmay) Khalilzad told me that four months would be precipitous. I agree. But we should agree that the U.S. will disengage at some period beyond that.  [emphasis mine]

Many other points worth pondering as well.  Thanks again for adding it to the conversation. 

Mike

I hold no sympathy for Hezbollah

Well, I'll ask you thins: why don't you hold sympathy for Hezbollah? I mean, of course, in this particular situation, not their ideology or other things they may have been involved into.

I think you should and so should every decent person. This conflict is not too complicated, if you know the facts and understand the context.

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

There are alot of flags on the CeasefireCampaign's homepage..., but there is one that is missing (find it here).

I think you'll find no flags of political parties on the petition website.  If you care enough to be accurate, you'll notice that the picture to which you refer is composed of stock graphics of the flags of the nations, the kind of thing one uses when time is of the essence. 

You will find, should you really care to find it, that the private individuals initiating this campaign represent

 ...a group of friends from around the world who are horrified at what is happening in the Middle East and our leaders’ inaction. We come from several different countries, including Brazil, Germany, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, the UK, Canada, the US, Australia, and Indonesia. [emphasis mine].

And if you really really want to investigate further, you might visit the home page of the not for profit group which sponsors the campaign, Res Publica.  But somehow I think none of this matters to you at all.

aMike