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Subsidies or Taxes?

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This is very true. Tragically, if you tell people you're going to tax their ft ossile fuels, they freak out and your political career dies a swift and merciless death. But if you tell people you're going to subsidize alternative energy sources the people will like that. Functionally, however, these are basically the same thing, except for the fact that the tax method works much, much better.


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Functionally, however, these are basically the same thing, except for the fact that the tax method works much, much better.

Hey philosopher bub, that sentence makes no sense.

---- Just say no to 0 ratings. Especially from petey, the ratings abuser.

Matt, You should read some Dani Rodrik, who has plenty of papers avaialble on his website. One of Rodrik's key points is that prior to the existence of an industry, there are significant costs associated with discovering if that industry will be profitable in a particular place. Once one entrepenuer demonstrates the viability of the industry, however, others can follow at lower risk - in other words the leader provides a positive externality. But, since this means that part of the social return from the entrepenuer's investment cannot be captured by the entrepneuer, we should expect markets on their own to provide a suboptimal level of such entrepenuership. This kind of market failure ("cost discovery") can be solved by subsidizing investments in new industries (though of course, like anything else, these subsidies should be well designed and not poorly designed). Similarly, there are network relationships between different levels of a production chain such that if some "links" are missing, its much more risky to invest at any point in the chain. For instance, it's much more risky to invest in ethanol production if there are not distribution networks in place through which to sell the ethanol. On the other hand, if there are no ethanol producers, it makes no sense to invest in the distribution network. Again, subsidies can help to overcome this chicken and egg problem. Taxes, on their own, would solve neither problem.

Well if we do nothing the increasing costs of fossil fuels will sap our economy...we need to move quickly in a new direction.  Increased taxes are part of the answer as Rich notes but not the whole answer.  But maybe saying the tax revenues will be used to subsidize new types of fuels might work, but it'll be a tough sell...and can we be sure that the tax money collected will be used as subsidies?

Taxing gasoline devastates the working poor and damages the middle class, exacerbating class inequality in this country. For that reason alone it is the last thing we want to do. Matt, I think you problem is you live in a city with good public tranport and just cannot imagine what it's like to live almost anywhere else in the country. A more targeted tax and subsidy policy would make better sense: say, a program that would tax new vehicle purchases involving vehicles with less than a targetted miles per gallon rating (and no "business" exemptions for SUVs!) on a steeply graduating curve while subsidizing vehicle purchases of high mileage cars, also on a steeply graduating curve.

=== Taxing gasoline devastates the working poor and damages the middle class, exacerbating class inequality in this country. ===

Unfortunately, not taxing gasoline, starting preferably in 1995 but certainly no later than 12 September 2001, has created the near-certainty that gasoline prices will hit $5/gal or more by 2008. What will devestate the poor and lower-middle-class is that sudden run-up from $1.50 to $5 in five years. Whereas a gradual withdrawl from the cheap gas fix, and development of real energy independence over time, would have been far less painful in the long run.

I keep hearing this argument about the poor living in exurbs, and I understand, but what do the arguers think is going to happen when the market pushes the cost up to those points? If that happens really fast?

sPh

Your argument does not really make sense. If people are not using less gas when the market pushes the price up to $3 a gallon why would they have used less gas in 1995 if taxes had produced $3/gal gas? $3 is $3 no matter where the money is going. It's not like people would drive less to spite the tax collector, but not to spite Arab oil shieks.
No, we are better off attacking the source of the problem head-on, which is not oil, but lack of energy efficiency in our vehicles. The demand for gas is highly inelastic; the demand for Hummers is not. And people are more likely to notice and respond to a four digit runup in the cost of gas guzzlers (and a four digit rebate on fuel-efficient vehicles) than a dollar rise in the price of gas.

It's not so much that the demand for gas is inelastic, as that $3 a gallon just isn't that atrociously high if you account for inflation.

High. Just not atrociously high.

Subsidies or Taxes is not the real question, but how much are we subsidizing gasoline’s price and preventing alternate technologies from coming to market.

Also, by subsidizing gas what other products are being "subsidized" by market distortions. The automakers, road construction, recreation industry, real estate, the list could go on.

We pay this subsidy because the politics of today are all about having others pay your expenses.

The cost causer should be the cost payer!
What a novel idea!

If this was cross-subsidization by one entity it would be charged with illegal restraint of trade, but when the tax revenues (borrowing today) does the subsidizing the action is legal.

It is done for the "public good".

Maybe, but these arguments from people isolated from the reality most Americans experience remind me very much of the arguments from the right-wing Social Security privatizers, who could also make a good case in theory and who were also situated such that they would not be much affected by the policy they were urging.
Here's the reality: Social Security and gasoline are both a third rail in American politics. Urge getting rid of the first, or making the second hard to buy and you will crash and burn in politics.
On teh other hand a tax/subsidy program, on vehicles is politically doable: many people hate SUVs; many poeple woudl liek to but alternative vehicles but ar edeterred by the expense, and no one is compelled to buy gas guzzlers they way they are compelled to buy gas. A policy which gives people a choice, a carrot along with the stick, will always win out over one that dictates a one-size-fits-all policy from on high.

So you're saying that Bush policies (domestic and foreign) have achieved the result that economists agree almost universally is best for the conservation of petroleum products and the reduction of harmful emissions -- higher prices? So the policymaking is done, we just need to wait?

Telling them you're going to raise gas taxes means THEY will pay. Saying you're going to subsidize gives them big hope that SOMEBODY ELSE will pay the subsidy -- you know, the rich, the guys would rather be investing in job creating business to get richer rather than paying higher taxes for gov't boondoggles to friends of the gov't.

Second -- higher gas prices means more push to change behavior. The job commute distance becomes a more important house-buying decision; and SUVs look more expensive (but still very handy to have when needed). Alt. fuels means -- no behavior change now, just buy the alt. fuel vehicle when it's cheaper overall.

Anybody who's serious about GW, like Gore?, should be pushing higher gas taxes. Or else they're not so serious, really, about it.

Freedom with responsibility

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