State your piece, hold your ground, and take your lumps.

I am reading the piece from the pew forum entitled "The Islamic Paradon: Religion and Democracy in the Middle East?|" It was a discussion panel done on May 24, 2005 over a year ago.

Jeffry Goldberg said then that the Lebanese government was told by Israel that "If Hezbollah attacks us over the border, we will attack the power stations that supply the entire country." Thus my question is why did Lebanon allow Hezbollah to arm with missles and rockets and why did Lebanon, a sovereign state, allow Hezbollah to murder and kidnap Israelis soldiers? Shouldn't Lebanon have asked the international community or the Arab league to help them oust Hezbollah?

When the United States was attacked on 9/11 I do not remember asking the worlds permission before annihilating the Taliban government of Afghanistan.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

As I recall the US ran around showing lots of countries the evidence for Osama being the mastermind of 9/11 and for the Taliban harboring Osama quietly and without a lot of fuss. We even collaborated with the Iranians on securing the Afghan/Iran border. They did not want the Taliban rushing into their territory after all.

All good questions, but the premises are that this wasn't planned for larger strategic objectives that have little to do with Hizballah or Hamas (not to say that the latter aren't objectives as well, especially for Israel) - certainly on the US side of things, and probably on the Israeli side.

Iran is certainly the centerpiece of the strategic concern of both the US and Israel. While Israel may have a more immediate concern with Hizballah, they tie Hizballah to Iran - with obviously valid reasons, but more so since Israel views Iran as their major competitor in the ME geopolitical sweepstakes.

The US of course couldn't care less about Hizballah except for the same reasons - to establish that Iran supports terrorism and allow the US to ratchet up the rhetoric towards starting a war with Iran for ITS own reasons.

Without considering the background motivations, the actions of the US and Israel cannot be understood.

Some people, such as Juan Cole, are even suggesting that the real goal of Israel is to drive the Shia population of Southern Lebanon north towards Beirut and cause a humanitarian crisis in order to establish another buffer zone in the south.

Others have suggested the reason Israel wants to drive the Shia north of the Litani River is simply to seize control of that river, which has been a source of water rights disputes for years. Who knows? Personally, I'm inclined to think the timing of this indicates much larger goals than mere water rights.

As I've said before, if you don't know why what's going on is going on, you need to reconsider your premises - and ask, "Cui bono?"

As for Gingrich, he's a side issue of no consequence. It's the general neocon braying that needs to be countered.

I also find it amusing that Israel claims the UN is "biased" against it. After Israel has ignored literally dozens of UN resolutions, it wouldn't be surprising if the UN WERE "biased" against Israel, in the same manner that the neocons want it to be "biased" against Iran for merely arguing about their rights in the NPT.

As for Jordon, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, what would they gain by trying to get between the Lebanese government and Hizballah? All that would do is put them at odds with Syria and Iran. And what could they do in any event - put soldiers on the ground? No one is going to disarm Hizballah without dealing with Shia issues in Lebanon - something Saudi Arabia is hardly in a position to do credibly. Those countries have no motivation and little leverage to do anything in Lebanon.

The notion that Israel only needs another week to "route" Hizballah is naive at best. Israel always says they can easily defeat Hizballah. The reality is very different. Israel is claiming today that half of Hizballah's resources are destroyed - yesterday it was a third. Tomorrow it may be three-quarters. A week from now, Hibzallah will still be firing rockets and Israel will be "requiring" several more weeks to "finish" Hibzallah.

Analysts estimate Hizballah has used barely three percent of its rockets so far. Israel's claims of how much it has destroyed have been described as "wishful thinking." Some analysts believe Hizballah has enough weapons to hold out "for months", certainly longer than the week the US has allegedly given Israel, or the two weeks Israel is claiming it needs. Israel is not saying that a full-scale ground invasion is off the table either, given that Hizballah is proving to be very resilient.

And even if Israel can manage to identify and destroy the bulk of Hizballah's heavy weapons, there is nothing stopping Hizballah from rearming, whether the roads are destroyed or not - it will just be harder. Hisballah can merely wait for Israel to cease airstrikes and resume rearming.

In the meantime, it's light weapons remain in its possession. If people think removing the Katyushas means Hizballah can be "disarmed" by anybody, they are making a serious tactical mistake. There is no evidence any significant number of Hizballah's 5,000 fighters have been killed, given that Israel seems to be expending the bulk of its air attacks on the Lebanese infrastructure.

These should all be obvious points that are, as usual, being ignored by the MSM.

Pessimism aside:

(1) Israeli position, I believe, is that this is "open war". Once hostility has begun on one's own territory, ie. involving taking of prisoners, UN permission is not needed for self-defense. Legally, this is true, international laws of war do not require UN permission to respond to hostilities, NOR UN consultation.

(2) it might not be WWIII, but it's still pretty ugly war. Conservatives like Gingrich may like to play with words to spin it as worse or better for their purposes, I don't think Progressives, Moderates, or Liberals should waste too much energy and time on it. It's "Open Hostility", getting more OPEN and more Hostile by the minute. That's all.

(3) I think the other Gulf States were reluctant to go too active in Lebanon because of fear of getting too involved. No doubt Israel and US didn't want the Gulf States to get too involved in Lebanon either. Syria just left Lebanon, and US and Israel didn't want another government sticking its hand in Lebanon.

(4) the need to control is not just for Iran. It's for every nation. That's just geopolitics. And of course, US will never admit it. If it's not Iran, it's North Korea, then it's China, then it's Russia, then it's someone else, so on so forth.

(5) NO, no plans. Bush is the fly by seat of his pants kind of guy, except, he just got a little gun shy from the whole North Korea ordeal. Playing hardball with Kim Jong Il takes a lot out of a Texan. Israel doesn't have a plan either. They are just HOPING that Hezbollah will give up some time soon. Bush is hoping that Syria will somehow solve the Hezbollah problem for the rest of the world. Kinda of the same way he hoped that China would solve the North Korean problem for US.

It's like the South Park Underwear Gnome business plan: Step (1) bomb somebody, ..., Step (3) Mission accomplished.

Thus my question is why did Lebanon allow Hezbollah to arm with missles and rockets and why did Lebanon, a sovereign state, allow Hezbollah to murder and kidnap Israelis soldiers?

The obvious answer would be that the idea of 'allowing Hezbollah' implies and ability to disallow them, and the Lebanese government, hopeful but tenuous as it was, was really in no position to stop them.  Hezbollah has a lot of popular support - and also a lot of popular opposition - and the civil war is still too raw, the tensions still too close under the surface, the  peace still too fragile and the alternative too unthinkable to take a strong stand against them.

You may say it was irresponsible, but when something is out of your power to change, it's out of your power to change.

Incidentally, the Lebanese friends I've been talking to started out fairly pissed off with Hezbollah when this started - and most still are.

Jeffry Goldberg said then that the Lebanese government was told by Israel that "If Hezbollah attacks us over the border, we will attack the power stations that supply the entire country." Thus my question is why did Lebanon allow Hezbollah to arm with missles and rockets and why did Lebanon, a sovereign state, allow Hezbollah to murder and kidnap Israelis soldiers? Shouldn't Lebanon have asked the international community or the Arab league to help them oust Hezbollah?

When the United States was attacked on 9/11 I do not remember asking the worlds permission before annihilating the Taliban government of Afghanistan.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Yup, the Slashdot version:

1) Bomb Lebanon.

2) ????

3) PROFIT!!!

While it is not a world war, it is a major conflict of reason vs. ideologies, extremists vs. moderates, unity vs. division.

Say what??????????????/

I'd say we have been discussing Lebanon plenty. Hardly silence here.

It's been pointed out that Syria only left Lebanon recently (one year ago?). The government is tenuous at best. It is, rather than a failed state, a rehabilitating state. Its competence was still compromised, in that the Syrian withdrawal did not include Hezbollah.

The government's moral authority has to be backed with manpower, which is the missing element. Israel of course knows this, so their actions in holding a convalescing country accountable for a situation not really of its making are without legitimacy.

Certainly there is political pressure to act but it is a failure of imagination and courage to simply lash out at Lebanon, instead of putting its soldiers where its outrage is, and facing Hezbollah the hard but effective way, on the ground.

Using Israel's rationale, that Lebanon is responsible, leads to the conclusion that Lebanon cannot meet the charge, which leads to the need to occupy and set up a government. Since this is definitely not wanted by Israel her politicians are being dishonest with the people, promising results without hard work.

BTW, again we have to be the laughingstock of the world, with our citizens hepled little, and grudgingly.

 2)Why can't progressives argue against the Gingrich this is WWIII or WWIV (I forget which number) attitde? I heard Newt on the TOday show, claiming that we can't be Neville Chamberlain like? Wasn't that his answer for going into Iraq?

Listen if you are able to Bob Shrum and Pat Buchanan's exchange on Hardball. Now Shrum has a gift for words, but he stumbled all over himself trying to avoid any criticism of Israel to the point when he ran out room to maneuver, he basically admitted that the ethnic cleansing of Southern Lebanon and the destruction of the state was no consequence to him (or the Lobby bought democratic party)

 This post should draw "Zeros" and answer your question.

Voters for Peace http://www.votersforpeace.us/

"Major arms factories with electrical furnaces"? Hezbollah? You're talking about a militia with 600-1000 fighters, not Wilhelmine Germany, for Christ's sake. So I hope that was a joke, Berkowitz.

Call it sarcasm. If Hezbollah did have such factories, which I know they don't, then there would be a military justification for attacking electrical plants. It was Mr. Greenbaum that said Israel had threatened Lebanon's electrical plants if they did not expel Hezbollah.

Since there's no particular evidence that the electrical plants are critical to Hezbollah operations, I'm more inclined to call the attacks collective punishment. And what does the Fourth Geneva Convention say about collective punishment?

Article 33
"No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed," and "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

So Lebanon is not responsible for the acts done from its terority? Goldberg's statement was in the context that Hezbollah, like all the Islamists are committed to the extermination of Jews from the Middle East. The warning to Lebanon was to get Lebanon to keep Hezbollah from killing Israelis. A point you seem to ignore.

There is also the matter of eliminating Hezbollahs ability to get rearmed. All the apologists for the killing of Israelis have not seemed to notice the amount of weaponry Hezbollah has. Why does not a non-nation state, operating within a sovereign state, have this sort of armamen?

I am deeply grateful that Israel is not dependent on the approval of the American left of its existence.

I am a bit curious, when 3,000 Americans were murdered you would have do what to Afghanistan?

Daniel A. Greenbaum

I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the goal of the Zionists and the neocons: to reduce the ME to "chaos", with few or no viable statee of any kind except Israel.

This in turn will justify the state's usual excuse, as exemplified by Chancellor Sutler in the movie "V for Vendetta:"

"I want EVERYONE to remember WHY THEY NEED US!"

The Zionists, the IDF, the neocons, the US military (not to mention the US military/industrial complex) - in general, the state itself NEEDS enemies.

The Zionists and the US intend to create more and more of those enemies, as long as they are enemies without the power to actually conduct STATE levels of warfare, i.e., actually BE threats to the power of those running the state (at least in their view.)

"Terrorism" is the ultimate state con - the unending "Long War" of "1984".

What these morons forget is history. As Dorian Gray said in the movie "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" last night in my DVD player, "I've lived long enough to know. Empires crumble. There are NO exceptions."

The state continues, of course, because that is part of the human irrational condition.

But while the US thinks the brunt of their blowback will be felt by Israel, sooner or later someone will sneak an Israeli nuke into Washington, D.C., too.

The Israelis are even more stupid for not realizing that Washington is essentially sacrificing them for its own ends, just as the "Christian Zionists" intend to in their fantasy.

Ah, well there are those 50,000 Iraqi dead to install a government that has a harsher view of Israel than the American left or the European left for that matter. See how well collective punishment works.

I think the US does have a plan. Our representatives pledged allegiance to Israel in a 410-8 vote. You can read the full policy here.

Here is the heart of it:

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) reaffirms its steadfast support for the State of Israel;

(2) condemns Hamas and Hezbollah for engaging in unprovoked and reprehensible armed attacks against Israel on undisputed Israeli territory, for taking hostages, for killing Israeli soldiers, and for continuing to indiscriminately target Israeli civilian populations with their rockets and missiles;

(3) further condemns Hamas and Hezbollah for cynically exploiting civilian populations as shields, locating their equipment and bases of operation, including their rockets and other armaments, amidst civilian populations, including in homes and mosques;

(4) recognizes Israel's longstanding commitment to minimizing civilian loss and welcomes Israel's continued efforts to prevent civilian casualties;

(5) demands the Governments of Iran and Syria to direct Hamas and Hezbollah to immediately and unconditionally release Israeli soldiers which they hold captive;

(6) affirms that all governments that have provided continued support to Hamas or Hezbollah share responsibility for the hostage-taking and attacks against Israel and, as such, should be held accountable for their actions;

(7) condemns the Governments of Iran and Syria for their continued support for Hezbollah and Hamas in their armed attacks against Israelis and their other terrorist activities;

(8) supports Israel's right to take appropriate action to defend itself, including to conduct operations both in Israel and in the territory of nations which pose a threat to it, which is in accordance with international law, including Article 51 of the United Nations Charter;

(9) commends the President of the United States for fully supporting Israel as it responds to these armed attacks by terrorist organizations and their state sponsors;

(10) urges the President of the United States to bring the full force of political, diplomatic, and economic sanctions available to the Government of the United States against the Governments of Syria and Iran;

(11) demands the Government of Lebanon to do everything in its power to find and free the kidnapped Israeli soldiers being held in the territory of Lebanon;

(12) calls on the United Nations Security Council to condemn these unprovoked acts and to take action to ensure full and immediate implementation of United Nations Security Council 1559 (2004), which requires Hezbollah to be dismantled and the departure of all Syrian personnel and Iranian Revolutionary Guards from Lebanon;

(13) expresses its condolences to all families of innocent victims of recent violence; and

(14) declares its continued commitment to working with Israel and other United States allies in combating terrorism worldwide.

Sounds like our plan is to back Israel in whatever it does and start trying to expand the conflict to Syria and Iran.

(1) We need to reassure the Lobby - they're so sensitive, you know.

(2) Don't ask us about Iraq - this is about Israel.

(3) Ditto.

(4) I've gotta step aside and laugh here for a bit, excuse me...

Okay, back to the point.

(6) Read: time to attack Syria and Iran!

(7) Ditto...

(8) In other words, kill civilians for no (rational) reason.

(9) Support the President in supporting a state that kills civilians for no (rational) reason.

(10) Ramp up the rhetoric on Iran.

(11) Pressure Lebanon to do something it can't, so as to justify further Israeli aggression.

(12) Ditto, with the added effort of ramping up the rhetoric on Syria and Iran.

(13) Sorry - another attack... Okay, I'm better now...

(14) Oh, by the way, did we say we supported Israel?

If anybody thinks the US government isn't a party to this by now, they need to develop remedial reading skills.

In my view, the House of Representatives and the US government in general are now complicit in every single war crime the Israelis commit in Lebanon.

Big surprise, given the war crimes already committed in Iraq by the US, with the full approval of Democrats and Republicans in both Houses.

Question 2:

"Why has the U.S. been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state?"

Grabbing the Third Rail
Paige Austin interviews John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

Voters for Peace http://www.votersforpeace.us/

 Yup. Especially now with the imminent demise of what's left of Iraq.  The Southern Oil fields that cannot pump .50/bbl oil, cannot fill Hamas and Hezbollah coffers.

But hey as your Senator and mine said - our good relations with Israel are "crucisl to the stabiliity of the Middle East", making $6 gallon gas, a bargain at twice the price, is good for the environment.

Voters for Peace

http://www.votersforpeace.us/

It's sad because this is the very same election-year phenomenon that occurred prior to the Iraq war. Democrats are desperate to fight their political battles on domestic policy grounds, which are winners for them. Many of them seem to retreat into denial and avoidance during international crises.

The big delusion-fest of this summer is the "Condi's in charge now" and "return to realism" refrain. Same old complacency; same old sleepy liberal daydreams to ease away the hours as the nightmare looms.

They can't seem to wrap their minds around how much our country as changed, and the utter, vile fanaticism of the people at the top. They all know some low or mid-level bureaucrat - maybe some friend from college - who tells them "oh, its all getting back to normal now". However, none of these nice moderate ladies and gents seems to know Bush personally; none of them know Cheney; none of them know Eliot Abrams; none of them know Bolton. They've talked themselves into believing that the old pros are back in charge - but it hasn't happened. The two guys with the top jobs, who call the ultimate shots, haven't changed at all.

Our country has undergone a hostile takeover; and I believe the people who run it are preparing to unleash some really nasty shit. The nice guys in the professional class are stumbling around slack-jawed and uncomprehending, mumbling "it's getting better...it will go away." But it isn't going away.

The good news is that Israel and Syria are being very careful about directing any fighting toward each other. Also what treaty obligates the United States to defend Isreal? While the Soviets fought for Egypt I am not aware of Americans every fighting for Israel.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

Add support for wise democracy the the list of Purple State (or Transhuman)

meaning, so Muslim would exercise their democratic opportunities (if any) wisely, rather than supporting creeps resembling Dr. Dobson.

I think every president from Truman on has said we wil defend Israel if it is attacked.  And, I know Bush or one of  his spokesmen has already said that in discussing the current fighting.  So, I assume there must be a treaty involved? 

Hoppy in Sacramento

Read Haaretz/...
PLease...

Please...

please...

"The claim is that the Lebanese government is so weak they are not able to oust Hezbollah. However Hezbollah sits in the Parliament and holds two cabinet seats. They are hardly passive actors in Lebanon."

And this logic works how?

Hizballah has 1,000-5,000 hardened guerrilla fighters and the support of a good portion of the Shia who make up 30-50% of the Lebanese population.

The Jerusalem Post has an article saying the following:

"While the Lebanese military does have certain resources at its disposal - a naval fleet, for instance, and an infantry force that has been largely supplied by America in an attempt to bolster the country against Syria - it is not, according to sources, a force to be reckoned with.

According to the Jaffee Center's Middle East Military Balance, there are 64,000 members of Lebanon's armed forces, which has 36 helicopters, four shoulder-launched missiles, 27 naval patrol crafts, 350 tanks, 1,380 mechanized infantry vehicles, and 335 artillery pieces.

Benjamin Ryan, an American journalist living in Beirut, said he did not believe Lebanon's mechanized infantry, at least, was capable of restoring order in the south.

Walking past a Lebanese military post, Ryan said, he "did a double take."

"A fleet of HMMWVs [Humvees] and APCs [armored personnel carriers] stood in the parking lot. The door on one of the APCs - the big one that swings down to disgorge the troops inside - had a lot of camouflage paint chipping off. Underneath, the door itself was wood," he said.

Wooden vehicles aside, "The Lebanese army does has strength," said Moshe Marzuk, senior researcher at the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism at Herzliya's Interdisciplinary Center.

"Its impotence isn't in its military capabilities, but in its internal politics," he said.

Inbar echoed those sentiments. "This is not a question of military capability, but of political will," he said. "

Actually, it IS a question of military capability, since if the Lebanese Army tried to take Hibzallah, first of all, the Lebanese Army would probably fracture along sectarian lines, and secondly, if Hizballah started an insurgency against the Lebanese Army, the odds of the Lebanese Army surviving it would be bleak if the maximum number of combat troops they could throw against Hibzallah is no more than 10,000-15,000 or so (out of 64,000 total, most probably aren't combat troops as in most militaries.) The 10-to-1 requirement for suppression of an insurgency also assumes competency which I doubt the Lebanese Army possesses.

In other words, if the Israeli Army couldn't defeat them while they occupied the country, how the hell does anybody think 64,000 poorly trained Lebanese military will do it?

It's ridiculous.

One, I'm quite certain there's no treaty. But the US-Israel tie wasn't always that strong. Go back and look in the 60s. A very different picture.

You must be joking.

Syria knows its relative miitary capabilities vs Israel's. They'd no more attack Israel's forces than you would attack Mike Tyson (I'm assuming you aren't as big or a pro boxer.)

And we have no treaty to defend Israel whatsoever.

What we have is a President that has three or four times said we will anyway. Why not? None of HIS kids are going to die for Israel. None of HIS money is going to be spent on such a war.

Iran does have a mutual defense treaty with Syria. Personally, I suspect that if Syria is attacked by Israel, Iran would basically back off from that treaty - although I'm sure they would up their efforts to support Syria and Hizballah with supplies, etc. But they wouldn't militarily enter the war.

If Iran is attacked, I would expect Syria to do the same.

In other words I suspect their treaty is more about "moral support" than actually getting killed.

Now if BOTH countries were to get dragged into this, the story would change slightly. I'm sure they would cooperate to some degree depending on circumstances.

Europe wouldn't intervene at all in this unless Israel started throwing nukes.

The US however would immediately attack Iran for its own purposes, and either attack Syria, or support Israel in doing so.

That's the REAL danger - and possibly the real PURPOSE - in this situation - to drag the US into - or provide an excuse for, which is more likely - a war with Iran.

Agreed about the history.

If Israel attacks Syria, I think the US would let Israel handle that itself and stay out of it.

Only if Iran entered the picture would the US attack Iran for the US's own purposes, and, secondarily, Syria in support of Israel.

It may surprise you, but Newts can live out of the warter only a very short time.

Neoboho

This is an article all Americans should read. It is all too often that Israel is blamed for the acts of Likud. How many on this board wish to be painted with the brush of GW Bush and his neoconnivers? Most of the world understands this in regards to America, and when dissents to American actions in the world are stated, they are often qualified with references to Bush.

This is an understanding woefully absent in American discussions regarding Israel. Honourable Israeli military personnel, who fervently believe their country's course is wrong, have chosen prison over serving in action they believe to be criminal.

It is not anti-Israel to be opposed to the warmongery of the Likud Party. I would claim that the opposite is true, because their actions of today can only lead to more hatred of Israel tomorrow. There is no peace down this pathway.

A recent Editorial of the Lebanese paper, The Daily Star, which is certainly not anti-west in their views, offers a lucid depiction of the current Israeli military operations' counter-productivity:

...In the short-term, Israel may succeed in laying waste to Hizbullah's arsenal of weapons. But even the complete destruction of Hizbullah's military capabilities would do nothing to reduce the group's political appeal. On the contrary, each slaughter only fuels the political sentiments that inspire resistance groups such as Hizbullah to take up arms - not only in Lebanon, but across the region.

Bombs will not annihilate the desire for statehood, missiles will not force an acceptance of occupation, and shells will not wipe out the desire of refugees to have a place to call home. These are political sentiments that no amount of American-made weaponry can annihilate. In fact, over the last 58 years, Israel's use of strong-arm tactics has consistently had the adverse effect of stirring these sentiments into a frenzy.

When the dust from this latest round of conflict settles, Israel will likely revert to its decades-old pattern of demanding that the weak governments in Palestine and Lebanon crack down on the militants in their territory, while at the same time weakening those governments and denying them any means of meeting the imposed demands. This strategy has only dragged the region from conflict to conflict, fueling more and more calls for resistance.

Editorial, "Israeli onslaught will strengthen, not weaken, Hizbullah's popular appeal", The Daily Star (Lebanon), July 18, 2006

Again I implore America to turn to its own dreamtime:

"Where justice is denied,
where poverty is enforced,
where ignorance prevails,
and where any one class is made to feel
that society is in an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob, and degrade them,
neither persons nor property will be safe."
--Frederick Douglass, U.S. abolitionist

If it ceases being about Liberty and Justice For All,
we are lost.

Honourable Israeli military personnel, who fervently believe their country's course is wrong, have chosen prison over serving in action they believe to be criminal.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

ISRAEL USING 'BLITZKRIEG' TACTICS

Israel's use of "BLITZKRIEG" war tactics--first, heavy aerial bombardment, then massive shelling using artillery pieces and tanks, and finally, a major push using overwhelming infantry forces--against the hapless civilans in both Gaza and Lebanon, was first used and refined by the Nazis in WW II.

It's a bit ironic that Israel, who never misses a chance to blame the world and sow guilt for what happened during WW II, uses the same military tactics that the Nazi controlled Wehrmacht employed to success 65 years ago.

Way to go Israel! You've already turned the West Bank and Gaza into concentration camps with your so-called "security fence."
Now, instead of using gas chambers for your "FINAL SOLUTION" of dealing with the Palestinians, and now, the Lebanonese people, you use F-16's and 155 mm artillery shells, white phosphorous and cluster bombs.
Israel must have forgot the old saying, "Choose your enemies well."

Greg Bacon
Ava, MO

"One of the very disappointing things about this site..."

I suspect Josh's response might be to invite you to reconsider whether you feel comfortable here, in that case.

Yes, this is snark.

Even "drive-by" snark, as I have experienced recently.

You may have already seen this, but "the Christian Science Monitor has an excellent piece analyzing this issue.

The conclusion you can probably guess.

The estimate that Hibzallah could replace its 12,000 Katyushas and other weapons within four months based on Iran's manufacturing capacity of 10,000 per month gives one indication.

Brian Jenkins says that Israel can probably reduce Hizballah's threat somewhat, "But will Israel be able to destroy Hizbullah in terms of its identity, the determination of its leadership, the devotion of its followers, and their dedication to continuing the struggle? No, that's not realistic."

The military analysts articles are starting to flow - and so far just about all of them are coming down positive on two points - Hizballah can't be destroyed, and Israel has screwed up if they think they can get what they want by destroying Lebanon. They also universally think Israel has seriously overreacted by bombing civilian targets and this will seriously backfire on Israel by uniting the Lebanese factions against them.

Like, duh...

Howard what about this?

Israel 'is using chemical ammunition'

By Duraid Al Baik, Foreign Editor

Dubai: A doctor at a Palestinian hospital has accused Israel of using a type of chemical ammunition which causes burns and injuries in soft tissue and cannot be traced by X-ray.

Chemical or depleted uranium could have been used in producing the new type of ammunition according to Dr Jomaa Al Saqqa, head of the Emergency Unit at Gaza's main medical facility, the Al Shifa Hospital.

Read More...

It as been Zionist strategy to align themselves with a superpower. Prior to WWII that was Britian. When Israel first became a state, and was governed by European socialists they actually looked toward the Soviet Union.

When the Soviet Union turned toward the Arabs, the Soviet's role in helping the Arabs is rarely mentioned here, in the 1950s Israel then sided with France.

With the Alergian war France had other Middle Eastern concerns. Israel then turned to the United States. However, it was not a particularly close relationship. Kennedy, and Johnson while supportive of Israel kept Israel at arms length espeically since they were more worried about Vietnam. Johnson and Nixon did appreciate that Israelis fought against Soviet pilots in the 1967 and 1973 wars.

With the end of the Vietnam War and the Soviets continued involvement the United States moved closer to Israel. The irony is that Sadat broke with the Soviet Union and sought American intervention. Carter brokered the Camp David accords between Sadat and Begin and from that time on the United States has more or less been a guarantor of that deal, at least diplomatically.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

When the United States was attacked on 9/11 I do not remember asking the worlds permission before annihilating the Taliban government of Afghanistan.

For what it's worth I have argued elsewhere that by failing to object volubly when Bush disregarded the proper legal channels to go after Afghanistan, many on the American Left undermined their position in objecting - on legal grounds - to the subsequent Iraq War.

The Faces of War Crime Victims

The Language of War Crime Statute (Fourth Geneva Convention)

 "Israel's disproportionate use of force and collective punishment must stop."
- UN Secretary General Kofi Annan

Face of a War Criminal

Under the laws of nations and the United States our government is obliged to hunt down and apprehend war criminals.

Under tests laid down by Ivo Daalder and others, Israel has by virtue of its criminal conduct, forfeit its right to national sovereignty

No Juliette, I will not be silent nor silenced

Voters for Peace

http://www.votersforpeace.us/

 Juliette..Lebanon's getting its story out much faster than did IraQ, thanks to scores of bloggers, un-in-bedded reporters, and people like Juan Cole and Josh Landis

"My City, on Fire Again" by Zena el-Khalil

Neither Silent Nor Silenced

Voters for Peace

http://www.votersforpeace.us/

Dubai: A doctor at a Palestinian hospital has accused Israel of using a type of chemical ammunition which causes burns and injuries in soft tissue and cannot be traced by X-ray.
Chemical or depleted uranium could have been used in producing the new type of ammunition according to Dr Jomaa Al Saqqa, head of the Emergency Unit at Gaza's main medical facility, the Al Shifa Hospital.

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

Why assume "it" was DU and can't the particles be so small as to be invisible to a conventional xray used for diagnostic purposes?

Some of the descriptions reminded me of gas gangrene, a lethal bacterial infection that causes an incredibly rapid tissue necrosis.

The antenna on my tin foil chapeau keep sending me nanotechvibes.

There is yet another report of possible chemical weapon use. This time in Lebanon.

""The bodies don't look like they normally do. After an explosion there were no traces of blood loss or subcutaneous haemorrhages [bruises]," Cham said via mobile phone direct from Beirut.

"The hair and sometimes the beard and the moustache remained intact. I found no traces of the pressure wave by the
explosion. The colour of the skin was black like a shoe, but the skin was not carbonised or burnt."

Eight mummy-like bodies were taken to the hospital on Monday and photos taken of the corpses. Two children's bodies showed no indication of wounds resulting from an explosion.

"I have the impression that a poisonous product penetrated the body via the skin. Death follows with almost 100 percent certainty," the professor said."
http://tinyurl.com/ljet2

Why assume "it" was DU and can't the particles be so small as to be invisible to a conventional xray used for diagnostic purposes?

Some of the descriptions reminded me of gas gangrene, a lethal bacterial infection that causes an incredibly rapid tissue necrosis.

"The hair and sometimes the beard and the moustache remained intact. I found no traces of the pressure wave by the explosion. The colour of the skin was black like a shoe, but the skin was not carbonised or burnt."

"I have the impression that a poisonous product penetrated the body via the skin. Death follows with almost 100 percent certainty," the professor said." This isn't a sufficiently detailed description to draw any inferences.
Sorry, I haven't yet heard plausible evidence for any known chemical weapon, or identification of a weapon that would use DU, or especially odd properties of dead bodies. I suggest the professor may want to review some trauma references. The standard text is usually considered Trauma by Moore, Feliciano and Mattox. I'll have to inquire about a forensic pathology reference with good coverage of trauma. There may be some references online at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"And, I keep wondering if all of this is part of a scheme, a very loose one, to involve the US in a never ending war to try to keep Republicans in power."

I agree, except I include the Democrats in the "conspiracy".

They get money from the oil companies and the military-industrial complex and have the same basic motivations as any other statists including the Republicans. Politicians are politicians - Obi Wan was correct when he counseled Anakin about believing any of them including little Natalie. :-)

Also, the Israeli Zionists are statists as well - they see never-ending conflict as their justification for existence, too. Don't even get me started on the IDF.

"According to CNN large parts of the not Shiia parts of Lebanon are going untouched."

Right - any place that's uninhabited.

Meanwhile, Israel has hit two CHRISTIAN CHURCHES and two hospitals, clearly marked Red Cross ambulances, and random vehicles including cars and trucks parked in Christian Lebanese neighborhoods.

They've flattened small Lebanese Shia villages completely.

The civilian death toll is at least 300.

That's not "untouched".

With Lebanese bloggers and the media filling the Net and media with photos of block after block of apartment buildings brought down in Beirut, saying "untouched" is disingenuous to say the least.

Consider this very speculative theory if you will and say if you think there might be any validity to it. Remember the accusations of the U.S. using white phosphorous as a weappon in Iraq. Faludga, I think. I saw one video supposedly showing WP being shot from a helicopter at night. The spacing of the rounds indicated that it was not the standard tracers which would probably be every sixth round, plus they were too bright to be that, plus the apparent speed and arc of the trajectory showed that it was a low velocity weapond/round, whatever. It did though, look like large charges of WP.

Remember the reports of strangly burned bodies. The clothing was sometimes melted, the bodies black, but often no wounds [like from bullets or other trauma.] Also remember that WP is usually, at least in my experience, just used as a marker round. That is, WP is the first round fired to the coordinates received by the mortar/artillery unit, because it has a smaller killing radius than HE [high explosive ] and is less likely to kill friendlies with a close miss in the case of firing close in when supporting troops under attack but the smoke remains for long enough for the observer who is adjusting fire to take an azimuth and estimate range, even if he is under fire and has to pick his moment to stick his head up and then radio in a correction if necessary before the artillery or mortar “fires for effect”. Remember also that the military’s response to the reports of it’s use in Faludga was that the WP was used for illumination. That was pure bs and I’ll explain why I think so if you would like.

Finally the question. Do you know, or can you estimate, that if several large rounds of WP came through a window or even penetrated a wall of a masonry building, might they leave the building standing but temporarily, say for ten or fifteen seconds, raise the inside temperature of a room into the quick killing range. Maybe 400-600degrees. If so, this might cause the effects that were described but that nobody I know of explained.

Maybe there is a simpler, or just other, answer. If you are familiar with the video I am referring to, released by Italians if I remember correctly, can you explain what it showed and what was the intended purpose/use of whatever the weapon was?

Somehow I doubt the resolution of a xray machine in Gaza would be fine enough to register miniscule particles. But I'm not partial to the DU theory, it's just that the doc's reaction to the "burns" was that it could caused by something "radioactive". Obviously, a new phenomenon to someone who has great familiarity with wartime trauma. Too bad the Israelis destroyed the only lab facility in Gaza that could have done even a rudimentary investigation. Pity, that.

My experience with gas gangrene was over thiry years ago while working in the ER stat lab of a major university teaching hospital. The place went nuts when the diabetic patient was admitted and every resident in the place had to see it in action. They were shocked and awed that they could watch the necrosis proceed until, darn, it reached her clavicle and the operation removing it (and her arm) was too late.

By "pressure wave" are you referring to a thermobaric weapon? It's been awhile but I don't recall that such a death would cause the blackened mummified condition the professor running the Beirut hospital was describing. Fortunately, he has the connections to get the ball rolling on whatever evidence he can preserve/document under the circumstances.

You seem quite dismissive of the opinions of professional medical personnel who are on the front lines and could presumably be trusted to know an anomaly when they see one or dozens. Unless, of course, both docs are just making s... up for political purposes or don't know what they're talking about.

Unfortunately, we have what we have to go on, not what we want to have. I hope you can find some information that will help shed some light, especially on the cases in Gaza.

From the limited information available,the Beirut cases seem to be a different matter altogether and yes I know what the desert can do to a corpse.

Then again, advances in nanotechnology can deliver all sorts of substances topically with apparent ease.
http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2005-09/artikel-5350419.asp

It was not uncommon, in both the pre-Nazi and Nazi militaries, for an officer who had lost his honor, perhaps from oathbreaking, to find, on his desk, a bottle of whiskey and a pistol with one shot. This was not unheard of in the British or French militaries.

I recently watched Ridley Scott's early film, The Duellists.  Breathtaking - the swordplay was almost as threatening (to the audience) as Lawrence Olivier's Hamlet.  Scott made that film on a shoestring budget, I undersand, and there were no sets.  And it was very faithful to Conrad's novel.  Honor meets obsession.

Neoboho

I watched some of the statements of the ambassadors to the UN before the Security Council on CSPANN last night - about 20 statements (before I fell asleep.)  There's a clear international consensus that Isreal has engaged in collective punishment, and several citations of other violations of international law.  

What I found unfortunate was that ambassadors from Muslim nations did not speak against Hezbollah's role in this crises.  I think it weakened their arguments (even though some hinted at it), but I can understand the politics of that silence.  The rest, however (non-islamic states) clearly spread the blame to both parties, but focused on the issue of collective punishment. 

No one, however, bought the idea that Lebanon could have disarmed Hezbollah.   

Neoboho

I uprated your comment because I take seriously the idea that one should not downrate for content, and the argument is well enough made.  But I think you are dead wrong.

I think that it was to be expected that Israel would retaliate against both Hamas and Hezbollah, especially inasmuch as both are now state actors (Hezbollah in a lesser sense than Hamas, I suppose, since they only have a few seats).  And I understand the sense that retaliation that does not eliminate their capacity to wage war against Israel is meaningless (though I don't think Israel will be succcessful in this).  But if things keep going on like this, the ultimate outcome of so very many tons of explosives is only going to be to keep a weak state, emerging into a strong and tolerant democracy, weak, perhaps unto the point of being a failed state.  Hezbollah exists in part because the Lebanese government doesn't have the military capacity to handle them, and because it doesn't have the infrastructure to provide services, leaving a vacuum that H. has capitalized on.  Given that military installations have been bombed in Beirut and elsewhere, that the infrastructure needed to build a robust economy has been severely degraded, and that tourism until a week ago counted for something like 20% of the economy, what will be left after the soldiers leave is hardly reassuring to Israel.  Especially given that Hezbollah is unlikely to be depleted of personnel - and may see a recruiting surge - and can rearm fairly quickly, given the patronage it receives from Syria and Iran. 

I think the western world's recoiling reaction to Hamas winning the Palestinian election was a blown chance to geld their leadership.

The funding of the Palestinian treasury should not have been taken away. Hamas' politicians would have become sedentary, and intent upon holding onto their power, but at the same time, they would have to be responsible for the day to day government/public business, and the people would have held them accountable.

Civilian governing would have taken up most of their time. Instead of them worrying about garbage pick-up, street lights, water treatment, and power production, they have been handed an excuse for their failures.

I think it is the same stupidity that has counter productively aided Castro's long reign in Cuba.

They get to blame American policies for their own ineptitude.

I agree.  Yet I still tremble a bit when I think the best course is to legitimize outlaw groups so that they will have something to preserve which might stop the trend to violence. 

You've cited Cuba, but I find myself remembering Nicaragua: What if?  If Eugene Hausenfas hadn't survived and the Iran/Contra scandal hadn't arose, which curbed the US's ability to continue with its anti-sandinista agenda, would the Sandinistas have been a continuing foreign policy problem for years and years?  I think so.  US policy propped-up the whole episode like a self-fullfilling prophecy.  But the tap was turned off, and the country proceded without US interference, and voted the Sandinistas out of office.  What a hoot.  Eliot Abrams was likely looking for a Somoza proxy to rule...and got democracy instead.

Neoboho

Yes, but.

We had de facto general approval, or at least the unwillingness to object publicly. (I would have given the Taliban a bit longer.)

If the Iraq invasion had any factual justification it would not be getting hammered as much as it is. In this case, having sought and achieved UN backing would somwehat insulate the administration from the excruciating embarrassment of no WMD.

I think it's all of a piece, though. That Afghanistan is largely accepted is because it was "reality-based". That Iraq is considered illegal by most of the world is because it was based on lies. Had we actually stuck with the UN it would not have happened at all.