Agreeing to Differ (just a little)about the Founders' intentions
Actually, I don't think that Michelle and I differ on very much.
We both believe that separation of church and state was an intentional aspect of the origins of our nation. We both agree that it remains, to this day, a critically important principle, and we agree that the principle is currently under threat from a growing subset of militant Christians.
Our difference, if it is a difference, is not one of politics. We perhaps read the zeitgiest of the late 18th century a little differently. And we may have a slightly different view of the intellectual temperament of the typical educated, elite, American male of that era.
Our difference may well be the product of the fact that one of us is a secular Jew and the other is a (more or less) observant Anglican.
We read the same facts through slightly different prisms. I included the narrative of the Episcopal Constitutional Convention of 1787 because it really was almost the same crowd that wrote our national Constitution.
The spirit of the European enlightenment touched both conventions in Philadelphia --- A little more 1662 BCP at the one, a little more Voltaire, Montesquieu and La Déclaration des droits de l'homme at the other.
The power of mainstream Protestantism was strong in 1787 and did not diminish for some time. Half of all our presidents over the past 200 and some years have been Episcopalians or Presbyterians.
We may argue about how observant they were--- some certainly less so than others. But they tended to marry and die with the trappings of Trinitarian liturgy.
A surprising number of presidents were interred with the classic "seven sentences" of the Anglican requiem (even presidents like Ronald Reagan who was baptized in the Disciples of Christ, but whose Funeral at the National Cathedral was framed with the Anglican seven sentences.
For the curious I'll offer the first and the fourth (enough to demonstrate that there is more than the proverbial Deism embodied in the words:
1) I am the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
4) Man that is born of a woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery. He cometh up, and is cut down, like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay.
My own historical prism illuminates the Founders as men bounded by their experience. The world they knew best was largely Protestant (with a sprinkling of non believers) and they did not anticipate the waves of immigration that would enrich the confessional complexity of the country they were founding.
Whether my take holds up to the next generation of historical scrutiny or whether Michelle's take becomes the received historical judgment on the Founders’ mindset, the more important point is that we both agree that they sought to build a system of governance that would not be dominated by a sect, by a church, or by a religious dogma.
There are forces loose today in our nation that seek to undo that intention and neither Michelle nor I are sanguine about this.












I'll just point out that referencing how many Presidents, especially those in the 20th Century, who were of particular faiths, says nothing about the composition of the Founding Fathers.
I think the abundance of the evidence is that the majority of the Founding Fathers had no intentions of founding a "Christian Nation" in ANY political sense, whatever their personal beliefs or whatever the religious composition of the 18th Century US population.
And that puts paid to the Christian right's propaganda to that effect.
May 26, 2006 1:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are right about the Founders. One of the things that is often lost in these debates is that the Founders were fully aware of the impact of state churches on the faithful. The knew for example that many of the original colonists to America fled England because they would not conform with requirement to take commune in the many demanded by the Church of England. The Dissenters were hardly to be confused with athiests or deists.
Daniel A. Greenbaum
May 27, 2006 7:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
J. McCutchen "JmacSF"
San Francisco. CA
The larger context apparently lost if ever learnt by the Cult of Reason jidahists hereabouts is the profound revoluition followed by the predictable ReaKtion not 50 years later..when the US did turn hugely religious - the Civil War..
But there is a larget context still...the COE and the Episcopal Church of which Stuart and I are a faithful remnant suffered what we now recognize as a crisis even among those with butts in the pews every Sunday the response to which was the Oxford Movement...
That's the skinny..the point is that the animus we see today has its own sordid past because whilst our Founders were floundering in their Freemason Diesm (Endowed by their CREATOR TH), their saint were drowning priests in the Loire and celebrating the short and miserable life of their religion ie the Terror...
The calendar says May 2006 not 7 Prairial CCXIV, the larger point being not their confessional hatred of Christians, or the implicit ingornance of Church history belief, doctrine..
The great tragedy is that we progressives, try as we might, cannot hide these crazed aunts in our basement.
The neo-fascists of the so called Christian right know it and are more than happy to let them play
May 27, 2006 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
. . . the founders of the American Episcopal Church met in Philadelphia to write their constitution [and then] went across the street and took up the task of framing the governance arrangements of the nation that would house their church.
I wonder if they double-billed their expense accounts.
May 27, 2006 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ellen, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some did just that.
"Sharp practice" was very much the hallmark of America's 18th century upper classes.
As you know, George Washington was quite comfortable being on both sides of wholesale horse sales to the Continental Army.
GW's Mount Vernon staff bought up Virgina and Maryland horseflesh in quantity, offered the stock to our under-funded Army on wholesale terms, and the good General signed the purchase orders on behalf of our nation-to-be.
So, yes, I don't doubt that at least a few Anglican worthies may have found a way to defray their Philadelphia costs in a manner that left them with a net gain.
Professor John Stuart Blackton
May 28, 2006 4:53 AM | Reply | Permalink