Why Skilled Immigration Endangers the Developing World

The New York Times highlights a provision in the Senate immigration bill which would allow an unlimited number of nurses to immigrate to the United States. Nations that have spent scarce national resources investing in the training and education of a few nurses could see the US benefitting from those investments and their own health care systems collapse:

The exodus of nurses from poor to rich countries has strained health systems in the developing world, which are already facing severe shortages of their own...Removing the immigration cap, they said, would particularly hit the Philippines, which sends more nurses to the United States than any other country, at least several thousand a year. Health care has deteriorated there in recent years as tens of thousands of nurses have moved abroad. Thousands of ill-paid doctors have even abandoned their profession to become migrant-ready nurses themselves, Filipino researchers say.

The conventional wisdom is that unskilled immigration is bad and skilled immigration is better. But skilled immigration often damages the developing world and encourages the US government to underinvest in upgrading the skills of native-born workers. Right now, many of the unskilled workers in the US -- who are feeling pressure from unskilled immigration -- could be fulfilling the need for higher-paid skilled work in the US. But there are no educational slots available in US schools:

There are now many more Americans seeking to be nurses than places to educate them. In 2005, American nursing schools rejected almost 150,000 applications from qualified people, according to the National League for Nursing, a nonprofit group that counts more than 1,100 nursing schools among its members.

Here's is the nasty dynamic-- the US refuses to invest in training and education of our own population, then instead leeches off the tiny investments in education done by developing countries.

In the ideal, the US would be continually upgrading the skills of its own native workers, in which case unskilled immigration would be all that was needed and native workers would see little threat from immigration.


Comments (70)

You miss another point.

It lowers the pay of skilled workers, making people less likely to choose those career paths.

The IEEE has some good papers on this.

-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

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Then write to Bart Gordon, democratic caucus on education, and complain.

And until that happens, I fail to see why Americans are any less worthy than other nationals to have as many nurses as possible.

Nursing is not a highly paid profession here in the US. I am certain if those other nations bought a few less guns, most of those low income nations could easily outbid the US for nurses.

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Nursing is not a highly paid profession? Excuse me. A registered nurse might not be as as well paid as a Medical Doctor, but the RNs I know are doing way better than the average school teacher with a master's degree. They are doing almost as well as the average small practice lawyer.

Supply and demand, supply and demand. We have a lot of teachers, and a lot of lawyers. Registered nurses have been in great demand for many years. That is exactly why the nursing schools limit enrollment. They want to limit supply exactly the same way medical schools limit the supply of physicians, and for exactly the same reason, to create a shortage.

Ron Byers

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Nathan,
Your ideal solution sounds to me like a minimal acceptable solution.

Ideally, the US, a very wealthy country, would partner with developing countries and split the cost of worker education in fields likely to help development.

The additional knowledge to train workers would then be in demand, more training could be exported to developing countries, helping them develop into more productive economies to trade with, etc. Obviously, the big problems here are with trained people who do not want to go back -- but if we are talking ideal, shouldn't we try to shoot a little higher.

That current policy is not minimally acceptable is par for the course for the Bush Administration. That does not mean implementing average policies makes them ideal.

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Corvid

But wait a minute, we're forgetting the party line here. A huge influx of immigrants from desperately poor countries isn't supposed to have any effect on U.S. wages.

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Nursing is not a highly paid profession here in the US..

Nursing pays very well. Nurses with a BS degree earn at least 50K and if they become a CRNA or other nurse specialist they make  80K.

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The present government sees everything as a business deal. Cheap labor skilled or unskilled is a welcome bottom line. There is no recognition that labor (all labor) has value. There is no urgency in training a future native-born workforce.
Need software engineers get visas and import them. Need farm workers open the borders. Need nurses import them.
From taking on 10-15% of Mexico's population to perform "menial" labor to visas for Indian engineers we are devaluing hard work. "Menial" jobs that were, in the past, stepping stones to higher wage jobs have been taken over by immigrants. Jobs requiring math skills go unfilled because math skills are not a high priority in schools and American born enginnering graduates are declining. In addition anvisa-engineer is cheaper than a native born engineer.
The idea that construction work, farming or janitorial services are jobs that Americans won't do is the self fulfilling prophecy of a government that looks the other way when American workers are discouraged from entering a given job market by below par wages and that uses non-voting "guest-workers" as pawns.
When considering skills required for technical jobs such as math or physics, there is no governmental response that would reward student achievements in those areas. Former astronaut Mae Jemison, among others has projects involving high school students in the physical sciences and showing the beauty mastering these skills exposes. Want better video games an integrated ipod-PDA-video recorder? Learn the skills to design them. A government sponsored learning based project placing science at the forefront (similar to the science explosion after Sputnik) would be helpful.
But, wait, we're spending our time arguing about stem-cell research, whether we should release information that suggests that global warming may be occurring, and whether a vaccine that may prevent up to 70% of cervical cancers will lead to promiscuity and therefore not released. We also have a cardiac surgeon Senator who can look at a 2 year old video of a brain dead woman, and say she looks OK. So forget that whole emphasizing science in the classroom thing.
Let's just keep importing the labor and skilled workers we need who are willing to work or lower pay, and ignore training a future workforce. We can all just make movies. The world loves American movies

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I am confused. The United States is coercing the nurses to come to America? If there is no coercion then are you opposed to people voluntarily moving to where they can make the best living?

Daniel A. Greenbaum

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Training nurses is expensive, so we just outsource this to the third world. In these countries education costs less (or in some cases nothing) and the US benefits by importing the skilled workers. If nursing could be done remotely they wouldn't need to migrate. So much for the argument about service jobs not being exportable...

--- Policies not Politics
Daily Landscape

Simple solution on high tech visas.

Make them so expensive that it costs more than home grown talent.

Set a target number, say 5000/month (60k/year) and when more applicants are received, increase the fees to apply.

Eventually equilibrium will be reached, and local folks considering technical fields will not look at the numbers and decide to get a business or law degree, because they can count.
-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

In the abstract, I'm obviously a big proponent of free movement of people. The problem here is a potential bias in US policy that would allow skilled medical people to come to the US, while blocking their patients from following them.

It is precisely the selectiveness of US policy-- the conditions imposed on trade, on capital investment, on immigration -- that create distortions in global development.

A well paying job, yes, but not a "very well paying job".
BTW, do nurses typically get OT pay, or are they typically on salary?
-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

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This isn't as clear cut as the US not training enough nurses. There are more than enough trained RNs in the US population to meet the demand. But the attrition rate for the first five years for nurses is extremely high. Nursing in a hospital setting is a hard job. Long hours on your feet, the need to stay professional while dealing a with a population that is ill, outside of their comfort zone, usually a little scared, and sometimes openly belligerant.

They have to take precise notes and records. Failure to do so can lead to medical catastrophe for the patient or censure for the hospital by regulatory agencies.

Nursing pays well, but there are alot of other ways to make a living in the US. Many quit and become per diem nurses who get to choose their own schedules, thereby becoming a stop gap solution to the problem they're contributing to.

With the funding crunch in healthcare its hard to see them raising RN wages consideralby. But if some solution could be found to keep new nurses in the profession longer then we eventually wouldn't need all that many foreign nurses to immigrate.

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Part of the reason that nursing schools are selective is that not everyone who applies ahould be working in the health care field. If you are a patient you probably don't want the "c" student working on you.

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Its just too bad you don't have the same concern for American workers impacted H1-B and L-1 visa workers that corporate America imports.

Here's is the nasty dynamic-- the US refuses to invest in training and education of our own population...

Utter cark Nathan, this is the same nonsense spouted by AEI and others corporate think tanks to excuse the massive importation of skilled labor that has harmed American tech workers.

If you left your cheap labor liberal mentality back in Berkeley and actually studied the issue you'd find that many American tech workers are now either under employed or not employed at all the fields they were trained in.

See during the 80's Americans were told hi-tech was the future for jobs so a lot them went to college to get various sorts of technical degrees. We had engineers and scientists aplenty and still do.

However during the 90's American corporations began massive off-shoring and importing of H1-B and L-1 workers began. American tech workers got it from all sides.

As a result a lot of tech work is no longer done in the U.S. and workers have ended up in non-technical work, older experienced engineers were lucky to get a occassional consulting contract.

In short its not about education its about American corporations who have used every tool availible to make themselves profitable - at the expense of the American worker and the future of this country.

In regards to the nursing shortage there are several bottlenecks causing this.
1) A limited number of seats in nursing schools. We have far more applicants than seats. There are no state or federal initiatives to deal with this issue.

2) A high turnover in Nursing. IMS 1/2 change professions within 3 years. The complaint - they end up as paper sufflers thanks to HMO red tape. Most of these folks didn't become nurses so as to push paper.

FWIW

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A well paying job, yes, but not a "very well paying job".

Define 'a very well paying job" to you ...in the USA...anything above 50K is considered upper middle class.

BTW, do nurses typically get OT pay, or are they typically on salary?

Both.

Yes, but we're also suffering a critical nursing shortage in this country. Sure, you don't want the "C" student as the surgical assistant on your heart surgery, but I'd be happy with a lot more "C" students taking my temp and blood pressure and freeing up the really good students to close my surgical wounds. But right now both are being forced to do way more than they should.

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This isn't as clear cut as the US not training enough nurses. There are more than enough trained RNs in the US population to meet the demand. But the attrition rate for the first five years for nurses is extremely high. Nursing in a hospital setting is a hard job. Long hours on your feet, the need to stay professional while dealing a with a population that is ill, outside of their comfort zone, usually a little scared, and sometimes openly belligerant

I agree.The issue is not a shortage of US nurses..but ashortage of nurses willing to  work  in   hospitals.  We see the same shortage  with pharmacists.  The issue is not a shortage of US  pharmacists, but rather of pharmacists willing to work retail.  For the same reasons....nights,weekends,holidays  are difficult hours for a  family lifestyle.

I find it unfortunate that everything in this debate continues to focus on higher education, which essentially assigns everyone with only a high school degree as "unskilled." Which, unfortunately, is quite true today, because our standards for a high school education have become so low that it's more of a right of passage than any form of employment training.

A lot of these "unskilled" workers don't have the time or money to spend their early 20s working through yet another educational program. When they get their HS diploma, they want to be able to find work then and there, as some already have kids or will have them soon, and don't want to put additional burden on their parents. And yet, most high school graduates have effectively no employable skills, and have to learn everything on the job. That's not a good educational system, that's compensating for a bad one badly.

Our students should be learning in middle school, now largely a wasteland of unproductivity and misery, what they learn in early high school. They should be learning in high school what they're now learning in early college. Or, for that matter, they should be learning how to work a trade, and learning it well. This way, we would have the most skilled carpenters, electricians, leatherworkers, stonemasons, and craftsmen coming out of high school, along with students fully ready to enter a three year nursing program.

This would be a much better and more productive use for our primary and secondary education dollars, and would prevent the need for investment in extremely expensive higher education programs, keeping those optimally focused on professions which actually need advanced training, such as teaching, nursing, law, medicine, engineering, etc. By improving the productivity of our high school graduates, we increase their employability. And if we get them better training in high school, without the need to send every last person to four year college degrees, we gain years of productivity rather than consumption. And that benefits everyone, most of all the student.

Note: I am NOT advocating less education. I am advocating more intensive education, earlier, with more vocational education in late high school.

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The phrase "brain drain" has I suggest done a lot of damage, as it contemptuously treats people as property, and national property at that; so the problem can be denied along with the term.

Migration of skilled professionals is a free rider problem. In this case, the free riders are rich countries. Britain is just as bad as the USA in this respect, with less excuse as the health system is centrally planned. But capacity has been increased recently in medical schools.

A question to American bloggers. Just how does the apparent cartel in medical and paramedical training work? There obviously isn't one for lawyers.

Walt- You are obviously a skilled recruiter for your viewpoint, since even when a person might agree with you -- as I do with the problem of H1-B and other hightech visas -- you insult them :)

Of course there should be more government initiatives to expand the seats in nursing schools and improve nursing conditions to retain existing nurses. More unionization of nurses would improve retention, since that leads to better treatement.

The point is that the US has plenty of capital to invest in upgrading our training facilities and educate the existing population to fulfill a host of needs, while absorbing a relatively large amount of unskilled immigrants. That kind of policy would promote social justice both here and abroad.

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The current state of medical training has a lot to do with the Flexner report on the 160 medical schools in existence at the time of his review in 1900. Flexner wanted to improve the quality of medical care. He recommended that most of the medical schools be closed and the others be modeled after Johns Hopkins. Medical licensure as a means of protecting the public was also on the rise. The AMA dominated most of the state licensure boards. Between 1900 and 1910 the number of medical schools decreased to 131. After the release of the Flexner report in 1910, another 46 closed between 1910 and 1920. All with support from AMA dominated state boards
In 1930, there were only 76 medical schools in the US. The budgets of the remaining school increased by 200-1000%. As the school decreased in number female students went from 907 to 502, five years after the Flexner report as schools became less "liberal" in enrolling female students.
there were 7 Black medical schools pre-Flexner and 2 post. Black patient access to Black MDs declined dramatically to 1 Black MD per ~14K Blacks in 1931 (pre-Flexner Miss alone had 1 Black MD per ~2600 Blacks.
The State board The opposite view is that State boards and the AMA act like businesses to maximize the profits of their members and limit competition. Thus medical costs are increased partially because of the limited number of MDs. (new and costly technology also plays a major role).
What exists now had it's origins in Flexner and licensure boards. After MD were licensed other groups such as nurses, dentists also went trough such structuring. Where the money would come from to increase enrollment pay for more lab space, MD teachers etc is not really clear, but I'm not an economist
My personal view? Well Flexner had a bachelor's degree from Johns Hopkins. I grew up in and was educated in Baltimore (I bow towards Hopkins and the hospital wherever I am three times a day so I admit to a degree of bias).
I do agree something aggressive must be done to increase our overall science ,nursing, MD student output without compromising quality, for our own survival.
I will end with a provocative stement from an economist


I am myself persuaded that licensure has reduced both the quantity and quality of medical practice. . . . It has forced the public to pay more for less satisfactory medical service.

--Milton Friedman

While I agree with Friedman's basic point, I think that his statements are being driven by a lot of
Randroid/Libertarian ideology too.

-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

I have written on this subject several times on my personal blog. I have taught in the University system and had pre-med students in my classes. The basis for accepting students in medical schools has been mainly on grades and not on thinking skills as far as I can tell. The students that seem to achieve their medical school goal are not always the students that I would prefer having for my doctor. But sometimes a few "good" and "thinking" students do slip through the cracks. Opening up the number of places in medical schools would certainly offer places for those students that would become even better doctors than the ones we currently have.

I have had experiences with doctors that have the time to sit, discuss and explain what they see, and I have had doctors who are amazed that anyone would spend more time in school than they did to make less money than they did. You may guess who I'd prefer as my doctor or my kids doctor. But, these people are certainly hard to find...

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Which, unfortunately, is quite true today, because our standards for a high school education have become so low that it's more of a right of passage than any form of employment training.

Your perspective presumes that the purpose of getting an education is to be employable?   HOW so?  Our public schools are not employment training centers.  Nor should they be. We educate students and public schools should not serve as a training ground for employers.

That would be shifting the employers cost onto the public taxpayer. Which is unacceptable.  It is the employers  responsibility to train individuals and provide the skills essential to productivity and profit for his business.  NOT public schools. Corporations controlling education is fascism.

Public schools educate minds.  Educated minds are essential to a democracy....not job skills.

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The 90s (especially the late 90s) were the Golden Age of tech careers, due in part to the Y2K panic. Problem is, too many people were drawn into the field (and at the same time real shortages motivated much of the H1-B visa hiring—which by way has declined considerably from where it was at in 1999). Even without the recession of ‘01 tech employment was bound to decline once Y2K came and went with only minor glitches and companies realized they had just spent their IT budgets for the next decade in one big binge.
Tech employment has been on the rise, especially in hot labor markets, but I don’t expect we will ever see anything like the late 90s again. An additional problem too is the rapid pace of technological change. A nurse is a nurse is a nurse (Yes, I know there are some nursing specialties in existence). Once trained s/he can go anywhere with current skills. Not so in tech fields. A person with eight years of VB6.0 experience (let alone 20 years of COBOL!) is looked askance at by an employer who wants people with VB.Net experience. Skills are so highly specific that they do not transfer well from one job to the next and this makes a tech job search, even when one has a superb resume, a frustrating experience (and a candidate search by the employer is probably just as frustrating)

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So wait the solution is to let anyone who feels like it declare themselves a neuro-surgeon???

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It seems to me that you want to import workers that do low paying difficult jobs that citizens don't want to do, and keep out workers that do high paying jobs that citizens are competing to do. I mean if you were doing things according to what benefited the citizens of this country.

And then there is the idea that if illegal immigrants were kicked out, then all those low paying undesirable jobs would suddenly be higher paying and americans without good educations would be then willing to do them. Who knows if that's true or not. If it is true, then uneducated americans would find mroe work, but the average cittizen would end up paying higher prices.

So the sort of legislation they are talking about in congress would mean fewer high paying jobs for the average citizen, combined with higer prices. That makes perfect sense, considering our government.

You left off another possible consequence: that people would mow their own %^$#ing lawns.

If having a lawn mowed cost $120, a lot of people would get a cheap mower, and do it themselves.

-- It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas

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"Educating minds" is all too often an excuse for mediocrity.

Being able to read well enough to comprehend a newspaper article, write a coherent essay, do mathematics, have a basic understanding of geometry and mechanical physics, and a knowledge of the outlines of history are all job skills.

Students are graduating without them.

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Education has the same problem. The vague desire to help students gives way to the reality of commanding the attention of 20 second-graders who would rather be elsewhere.

This is turned into a "we need more teachers/nurses/pharmacists" crisis, rather than a we need to treat the teachers/nurses/pharmacists we have like valued human beings so that they will have the energy to do their important jobs.

Visas for foreign workers in a given field be balanced against the turnover rate for non-immigrant workers. Fields that refuse to retrain and retain workers as technology shifts should not be allowed to simply import new workers from overseas. The average career in the field for someone with a computer science degree is something like seven years. Why should people make the investment in an education if corporations are just going to use them up and toss them aside?

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Windowdog said
So wait the solution is to let anyone who feels like it declare themselves a neuro-surgeon???

--------------------------------------------
I intentionally used the Friedman quote because it was so provocative

Perhaps I need to clarify the point is not to let just anyone become an MD or nurse etc. The point that I and Dr F are making is that some of the limitations on medical school entry are dictated by how much the public is willing to spend on graduate education. Tuition paid by medical students do not cover the full cost of educating that MD. We need both lab-rat MDs and Marcus Welby MDs to care for the population and advance medical science.
In an ideal world I would like to see more spaces opened up for all types of MD applicants to serve future needs. They should all be required to pass tests and certification requirements. However there are many qualified applicants who can't get in to medical school due to space limits not because of lack of intellect.
Dr F's point is that a Marcus Welby MD will burn the midnight oil to figure out why you ae not healing as fast as he feels you should, and may be very willing to seek referral to a tertiary center if he can't answer the question himself.
In medicine it's not what you know that harms a patient, it's what you sure you know-but really don't. My read on Dr F's comment is that repeated questioning of oneself that he wants his own MD to have, and I agree.
The real point is that we need to be training more sci-tech-med folks of all stripes.

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Thanks to rmrd0000 for laying out the institutional background. In a perfect world, you would completely split the functions of capacity planning and quality control. Any university should be allowed to open a medical school, provided the school meets quality standards set by the profession - isn't this what happens in other professions, lik engineering and law?
This is clearly a matter of the supply of places not demand. There's excess demand for places at current levels of earnings; there still is in the UK with lower ones, at any rate for doctors - I'm not sure about nurses. A drive for expanded training should be part of the Democratic plan for national health care, AMA be damned.

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No need to set the fee, just auction off the visas. I've read that in the India dowry markets, a groom with an American visa (forget if that meant H1-B or a green card) can get an extra $70 to $100k in the transaction (how cool is the idea of a "dowry", but I digress).

If Uncle Sam auctioned off visas (excepting refugees, of course) like we do cell phone radio licenses-- we could raise billions if not tens of billions of dollars every year.

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I'm uneasy with the hierarchy of value placed on different categories of workers. Developing nations are losing needed human capital (not to mention the destruction of families and communities) by the immigration of "unskilled" working people, just as they are from the immigration of professionals and others with specialized training.

I personally don't think the construction trades are unskilled and I assume those construction skills are needed in Mexico and other developing nations. What Mexico needs is a populist revaluation of their economy- making good use of all workers in the building of a prosperous nation.

That's no more utopian than our assuming that mass immigration is values based and not just a hunger for cheap labor and greater inequality here in the US.

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Even though nursing is a skilled profession, there are some similarities with the illegal/unskilled immigration issue.  In both cases, the issue is not "can we find natives to do this work?"  Of course we can.  The issue is rather "can we find natives to do this work at the wages we are willing to pay and the conditions we set for doing the job."  There are plenty of native-born Americans who would do landscaping, for example.  But three factors conspire to make that an immigrant-dominated occupation.  First, the pay is crap.  Second, we expect high quality work in exchange for that crap pay.  Third, the conditions aren't exactly conducive to high quality work.  Long hours, physical exhaustion, and so on.  My brother, who refurbishes old houses, and my father, who has a whole team of people working on his garden, says that even if you set out to find a non-immigrant landscaper, you couldn't find one.  At least in LA, they don't exist.

The pay for a qualified RN isn't bad, but it's not enough to compensate for the uncomfortable working conditions.  The work quality by definition must be high.  For whatever reason, Americans don't seem to do very well at work that requires high quality, precision and detail, even if it pays pretty well.

In as much as much of that nursing labor is being expended treating retirees,

In as much as retirees typically like warm weather, and the Philippines have that,

In as much as retirees have limited incomes, and living costs in the Philippines are low,

Why not export the retirees, instead of importing the nurses?

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The thinking behind this post has a couple of problems.

1) There's one very obvious problem with just admitting more nursing students to our programs: the number of people with Nursing PhD's is very, very small. You can admit all you want, but someone has to teach the students. If admissions to these programs weren't capped, quite likely you'd end up with more poorly-trained nurses.

2) It's an oversimplification to frame this as an "evil corporate America robbing the developing world of resources" issue. While the brain drain of healthcare professionals from the 3rd world is clearly a problem, we have the same problem within the US as well. Just ask anyone who lives in Boston if they think America has a shortage of healthcare workers; then ask someone living in the rural West. Programs like the National Health Service Corps exist for a reason.

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If Brad the Dad is right and Americans can't do quality work or difficult work should just give up as a country. I do believe that work has been degraded as a desirable thing to a certain degree, but I also believe that Americans work hard everyday. One of the limits to access to a graduate nursing degree, for example, is the debt incurred in most cases to pay for the degree. That financial burden presents a barrier to most people. After paying for a nursing degree, you're now asked to pay for a PhD. A country that truly believes in education would provide scholarships to encourage higher education and ease the economic burden.
At the other end of the financial spectrum, I just saw a report from Washington state on cherry picking. An orchard owner could not find US natives to pick cherries even at $9/hr. For 50 wks of constant work (5 days a week) the annual income is $18K. A cursory review of McDonalds payment schedules suggests a full time employee with one year of experience can earn $8-10/hr. Perhaps Americans are not lazy, but understand the job market perfectly.

Ah, the old "education is an end in itself" argument. Well, it's true. Having just finished yet another marginally employable degree, who am I to argue? Well, I'm about to anyway.

All of this sounds great in the abstract, but frankly, I just wrote the abstract for my thesis a couple of weeks ago, and so enough with the abstract. Let's talk about high school graduates here in Durham, NC. Some of them are going on to college. That's great -- college is a lot of fun, and at some colleges you even learn a lot. It's also extremely expensive, even if you get into one of North Carolina's highly affordable and high quality public universities. But a lot of them aren't, and they're met with pretty dismal job opportunities.

So let's wait until, say, October, and you can come down here and find one of the class of 2006 that didn't go on to college and is struggling to find work outside of a fast food restaurant or a grocery line. Go ahead and ask her how she feels about all the time she spent in high school working towards a degree that provided a cursory overview of history, some basic attempts at literature analysis, basic math, and some slapdash science classes. And then ask her how valuable her educated mind is to her.

I'm not against all of these things. But I'm convinced with additional resources, structure, and public emphasis, we could intensify middle school classes so that everything that gets covered in a basic high school diploma could be done by 9th or 10th grade. Then on to classes where we can hopefully fill in some basic job skills for students, so that maybe we won't have such a perverse shortage of skilled workers and shortage of jobs for unskilled workers.

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A few points that get easily overlooked in this type of discussion:

1. Until recently, everyone KNEW that the US had and was continuing to train too many doctors, because of the increased efficiencies of managed care. Medical schools decreased their available slots accordingly, as well as postgraduate training programs. Today, everyone KNOWS that we will soon have too few physicians.

2. It is generally accepted that more physicians does NOT equal cheaper healthcare; instead each doc seeks to feed his/her family/educational loans by doing more procedures, etc.

3. Due to the need to match the physician supply pretty closely to actual need, national committees meet to develop a concensus re how many physicians the US needs to train each year. Many medical schools (maybe half) are state-supported and seek to match their local demands as well. Note that all medical education is expensive and is never covered by tuition costs. So there's always an institution that determines how many physician training spots it's willing to subsidize. For those interested in reading more about this process, see www.aamc.org

4. The vagaries of our reimbursement system are such that we pay doctors very little to talk to and examine patients, and quite a lot to take pictures of them, interpret pictures of them, and stick implements, possibly sharp, in them. These incentives have powerfully shaped the system that we now "enjoy."

Bottom line: centralized management (not really control) of medical system training capacity is not necessarily a bad thing. Note that much of what I've said does not apply to the nursing situation. I think that if hospital nurses felt they were being adequately paid for the crap they deal with every day, there would be no shortage.

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This "nurse-poaching policy" being floated in Congress (no mincing words here, that's exactly what it is) is reprehensible on any number of fronts.

For one thing, it's cruelty incarnate to developing countries that are already struggling. I worked for a while in India, and the conditions in the hospitals were desperate-- there countless tragic cases of patients, often little kids, dying because there weren't enough nurses to help with the most basic ailments. You can't imagine how wildly frustrating it is to be in a hospital where some poor kid dies of something so obviously curable and manageable as infant diarrhea, all because they didn't have enough nurses on staff. And now, the greedy GOP thickheads (maybe some Dems too, I don't know) want to make this already acute problem 100 times worse. We'd be killing hundreds of thousands of poor people if their nurses flee, make no mistake. Even worse, India, the Philippines and Africa would be getting screwed even further in the process since they're putting so much money and effort into training their health professionals, only to see them leave afterward.

So these desperate developing nations are incurring all of the costs while receiving few of the benefits, and even worse, they're effectively giving away their hard-earned human assets to the world's richest country without squat in return. Can we say, "Raw f***ing deal?" NPE, the problem with your national health service analogy, is that there is no such program for the countries losing their nurses. In the rural west, they go get doctors and nurses through the NHS. In the Philippines and India, they just get screwed royally, period.

This system is bad for us in the US as well. If there's a nursing shortage in the US, the obvious solution is to 1. start more nursing schools and train more nurses (there's a huge unmet demand here), and 2. actually pay nurses a decent living wage (along with things like providing scholarships to reduce educational loans). This is supposedly the idea behind the "free market" that the GOP likes to crow about-- when a skill is in demand like this, and people are willing to endure the training for it, they are rewarded financially be meeting the demand for the skill. But the GOP of course, doesn't really believe in the free market-- better to pay the wage slaves (including skilled workers like nurses) with peanuts, can't actually pay the peons for the work they actually do.

So instead of doing the obvious and intelligent thing of training more nurses and paying them fairly, the GOP prefers to poach from desperately poor nations, getting nurses here who work for a fraction of what US-trained nurses work for. An obvious side effect here-- while the foreign nurses may be industrious, they don't have the level of training of US nurses (one reason why they're paid less), which means that quality of care for patients in the US is reduced. There are also communication gaps due to cultural barriers, which leads to fatal mistakes (I've seen this).

I don't think there's an easy solution but there are several steps we can take to at least now screw the developing countries so blatantly. One would be to simply pay the developing countries for the costs of training the nurses, and for the costs in lost productivity and health care when the nurses leave in droves like this. (There *are* ways to calculate this sort of thing.) Alternatively, we could sign a treaty with e.g. the Philippines, to have nurses work for a set period in the US, say 5 or 6 years or so, before returning to their home nation. This would have the virtue of benefiting both sides-- the Filipino nurses provide the benefit of their work in US hospitals, while they get extra training which they're able to put to good use when they return home.

We really need to work out some sort of fair compensation arrangement like this, or else we'll lose our supply of foreign nurses entirely as these foreign countries take more draconian steps to ensure they stay. For example, in some parts of India (and I imagine the Philippines as well), nurses are obligated to work for a set period, 7 years for example, within India before they can have the opportunity to consider emigration. This is basically an up-front sort of thing when the nurses go to nursing school in the first place-- to have the government's financial support to pay their tuition and provide the facilities, the people receiving the benefit of the training have to work a fixed period of time in India (or the Philippines) as a way of repaying the assistance. This is actually little different from what the US does with the NHS, but if we persist in poaching more of their nurses, then India and the Philippines will set up even stricter requirements.

When I was in India, I even heard, seriously, a suggestion to change the language of advanced nursing instruction-- from English, and instead to something like French. The advanced textbooks and literature used to teach nursing are available in French as well as in English, but training in French has an added virtue since France is much smaller and far less prone to poach India's nurses away. So, the nurses can get basically the same level of training, without the countries being hit so hard by poaching when the nurses are trained using English texts and tempted to move to the USA or Britain. IIRC this was actually implemented in some parts of southern India (where France had been a colonial power and French is widely spoken in any case), possibly elsewhere in India and maybe even in the Philippines. It may sound like a harsh move, but again, you have to understand that these countries are desperate and cannot afford to suffer hits like this. If we fail to compensate them fairly, they're going to do what they have to do to survive. They have every right to do that.

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But karl,

The fact that there's a nursing shortage to begin with means that we have to fill it *somehow*. Many of these foreign nurses coming to the US-- I hate to admit it-- are going to be like your "C" student, not because they're lazy but because they don't have the level of training or cultural familiarity that American nurses have. I've seen the results of this up close, and when you're a nurse, little miscommunications can have fatal consequences. This is another reason that I don't like the idea of importing foreign nurses en masse (with less training than here in the US), just as much as I'd be opposed to, say, a mass migration of US nurses in the opposite direction.

The best thing to do is to expand the number of nursing school slots and help advertise the profession. There are plenty of strong, well-qualified US students who'd love to go into nursing, but there aren't enough schools, and the pay is not commensurate with the challenge of the work. So we fail to attract the high caliber of people that we otherwise could, into the nursing profession.

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Excellent post, Maureen. I agree with you.

"This is turned into a "we need more teachers/nurses/pharmacists" crisis, rather than a we need to treat the teachers/nurses/pharmacists we have like valued human beings so that they will have the energy to do their important jobs."

"Why should people make the investment in an education if corporations are just going to use them up and toss them aside?"

Exactly, I think that encapsulates the problem perfectly-- workers in the US, skilled and otherwise, are treated as expendable even if they're incredibly productive and diligent. This, naturally, decreases the incentive for hard work among Americans, and it viciously reduces the attraction of challenging fields like engineering, that require years of training and often high educational debt.

The problem with outsourcing programming to work to India, for example, is on the supply end-- nobody wants to study engineering or comp sci at US universities, because the perception is that workers in these fields are treated as expendable commodities by companies, tossed out as soon as a cheaper worker from India enters in on an H-1 visa. This IMHO is damaging to both countries-- to India (losing its high-tech workers) and to US workers (who are discouraged from entering high-tech fields). Bush's plan to increase the number of math and science teachers sounds nice on paper, but it's almost absolutely useless in practice because students don't have the proper incentive to actually enter engineering later on. If they're made to feel that they're easily replaceable by a cheaper alternative, they're not going to enter into technical fields.

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"The issue is not a shortage of US nurses..but ashortage of nurses willing to work in hospitals."

I would modify that to read, "a shortage of nurses willing to work for the crap wages they're currently paid for all their effort and their many years of training." Many doctors and construction workers, for example, have extremely stressful and demanding jobs, but with fair and proper wages and benefits (including reasonable amounts of vacation time), they can work decades without burning out.

But with our nurses, they don't get paid anywhere near a fair wage. Basically, the message to US nurses is, "we'll happily exploit for your labor, but we won't compensate you fairly in return." The solution to the problem is to both train more nurses here, and to compensate them fairly.

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Outstanding post, rmrd0000. I nominate this one for the record books.

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That's naive, Dan. Nobody's forcing the nurses here, nobody's claiming that-- the problem is that we're providing an obvious and easy hook to draw them in, *while they've been trained in poor countries that desperately need them*, while failing to provide squat in terms of compensation for the countries we're poaching them from. It's the desperately poor subsidizing the already filthy rich.

I worked in India for a while, and I saw little kids dying-- by the many thousands, as it turned out-- from easily treatable diseases because there weren't enough health care staff, they were lured away to the US or UK without anything approaching a fair compensation to Indian hospitals (e.g., funds to help expand nurse training and provide more incentives for others to remain). There has to be something approaching a fair compensation scheme, as I discuss below, or countries like India and the Philippines are going to start imposing draconian measures to prevent the exodus-- e.g. contractually demanding that nurses work 7 years or so in country to be admitted to nursing or medical school, or even (in a few cases) switching the language of advanced instruction from English to French. These countries are desperate, and we have to be considerate of the situation from their side.

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Yeah, this IMHO is the real cost of outsourcing US computer and engineering jobs (and bringing in Indians on H-1 visas)-- it utterly kills the incentive to major in these fields. India loses trained software engineers who come here working for cheap wages (in the US), while the native population of US engineers is utterly gutted.

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An additional problem too is the rapid pace of technological change. A nurse is a nurse is a nurse (Yes, I know there are some nursing specialties in existence). Once trained s/he can go anywhere with current skills. Not so in tech fields. A person with eight years of VB6.0 experience (let alone 20 years of COBOL!) is looked askance at by an employer who wants people with VB.Net experience. Skills are so highly specific that they do not transfer well from one job to the next and this makes a tech job search, even when one has a superb resume, a frustrating experience (and a candidate search by the employer is probably just as frustrating)

You don't get off the hook that easy, sorry.

Yes, technology changes. It's one of the things that makes this field exciting. But the idea that some kid from India just out of school with six months of Java experience is going to deliver more than a guy with 8 years of C++ doesn't fly. A GOOD software developer can make the switch fairly easily because he understands the principles of programming. My experience with H1Bs is very uneven. Some are outstanding, some are average, and some are simply in the wrong field - same as Americans. The problem is, in the never-ending quest for cheaper labor, bottom line thinking takes over and you have people making decisions who DON'T HAVE A FRIGGING CLUE who is a GOOD developer or even what the technologies they are looking for are, and have no idea what other technologies with different names might be a close match - so they'll easily fall for the resume with the right buzzwords over someone with real talent. All the better if they cost half as much.

I know, it's happened to me. I had to fight for my current position against all the people who looked at my grey hair and dismissed me without a second thought. The large company who eventually DID hire me out of dire necessity (because I did have a precise skill on my resume) got much more than they bargained for and is now, two years out, awfully damned glad they did.

Again, the people who understand this stuff are pushed to the side and the green-eyeshade boys take over. It drives much mischief these days. The USA is basically flushing itself down the toilet.

 

 

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Re: It's one of the things that makes this field exciting. But the idea that some kid from India just out of school with six months of Java experience is going to deliver more than a guy with 8 years of C++ doesn't fly.

I never said that. However if a company wants to hire someone with experience in VB.Net then the kid from India (or from Poughkeepsie for that matter) with 6 months experience in that language will beat out the guy with ten years experience in something else. The bottom line is that American companies are very adverse to training their workers and rather prefer them to come already trained and skilled. To some extent too there’s justifiable reason behind this attitude since American workers can and do job hop a lot and I can understand a company’s reluctance to provide training for a worker who may simply jump ship afterward.


Re: A GOOD software developer can make the switch fairly easily because he understands the principles of programming.

And yes, I absolutely agree. But that’s not how the employer sees it. What he sees is someone with no more experience in what he wants than someone just out of college—and yet the candidate is likely to be asking for a much higher salary based on ten years experience in some other area. In other words, if you are in IT and you are applying for a position utilizing technology you have not worked with before you are an entry level applicant no matter how many years experience you have with other technologies.

Re: I know, it's happened to me. I had to fight for my current position against all the people who looked at my grey hair and dismissed me without a second thought.

Don’t forget that one big, big problem with your “gray hair” is the fact that your health benefits are going to cost your employer a lot more than they would for some kid who is fresh out of college. This may in fact be the real problem that older workers are running into in their job search. Have you looked into how steeply health care premiums escalate for people over 40? It’s pretty eye-popping, and I can’t entirely blame the employer for suffering sticker shock. Reason number 987 why we need health care reform!

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You're right about high turnover, but it has little to do paper shuffling. It's all about work load, as health systems try to decrease staffing. It's a bit like the factory upping the pace of the assembly line, but if you make a mistake it's someone's life--incredibly stressful. Some states are introducing patient/nurse ratio limits which counterintuitively ease the nursing shortage. Right now it's a vicious cycle. Management cuts staffing and training to save money, nurses leave in response to work load, management pays obscene amounts to nurse staffing agencies, needs to cut staffing more, etc, etc, etc.
Nurse staffing agencies are consistently listed as one (or more) of the top 5 contractors on 990s(Nonprofit IRS forms).
I worked on an organizing campaign where management wanted to move the nurses onto 12 hour shifts and fill in breaks with agency nurses. The response at the negotiating table wasn't "no", but "what are you stupid?" I know I don't want a nurse who has been running around the floor for the past 12 hours performing triage or bagging a premi.
Many hospitals and nursing homes also try to replace RN's with LPNs, giving them borderline and sometimes blatantly illegal tasks. Nurses are in the profession for helping people as well as for the money, so when management prevents them from doing their job, they run the other way.

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duplicate

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I would modify that to read, "a shortage of nurses willing to work for the crap wages they're currently paid for all their effort and their many years of training

Nurses with BS and MS degrees make excellent money...wages are not the issue.

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So let's wait until, say, October, and you can come down here and find one of the class of 2006 that didn't go on to college and is struggling to find work outside of a fast food restaurant or a grocery line. Go ahead and ask her how she feels about all the time she spent in high school working towards a degree that provided a cursory overview of history, some basic attempts at literature analysis, basic math, and some slapdash science classes. And then ask her how valuable her educated mind is to her.

OK, I see your point.  They have technical and trade or vocational schools for that. I simply do not want to see public schools turned into employment training grounds.  I recognize that some students may not choose or desire college educations.  It use to be that shcools did accomodate those kids,but since tracking was often racially biased, schools stopped doing that.

There is a need however, for both tracks in HS, the problem comes in making the choice, and finding out that your HS degree did not prepare you for college.

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Uh, try again. Still aiming low.

Any Registered Nurse (only one state, North Dakota, I believe, requires a BSN for entry to practice) will make at least 50K in a hospital. Starting salaries in my region are 60K+. I make $31 an hour part-time (Yes, I am an RN, too, with an associate nursing degree and I'm on the low end of the part-time scale for pay, most places are $35-$40/hr). My wife makes 90K on the first rung of management. CRNA's make at least 120K around here. 150K is not unusual for CRNA's.

That said, what other commentators have said about the hours and the work conditions is right on point. My wife conciously made the effort to rise to management to get away from bedside nursing, though she has gone back due to necessity at times (the same forces at work in the broader work world play in hospitals, too. Job tenure is often shortened for many reasons, especially in large markets like mine.

Marc

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I don't know where you work, but the 12 hour shift is the norm where I am in hospitals. The research I am aware of doesn't put the decrease in performance at the 12 hour point but at the 16 hour point (or somewhere in between). Take away the 12's here and you'd get a riot.

That said, the rest of you post is dead on. The ER I work in part-time has shifted from 3:1 ratios to 4:1 ratios in response to other issues (almost 50K/yr visits in a 12 bed ER, physicians trying to reduce door-physician time, claiming it is the solution to a drop in patient satisfaction. I think it is the having to put patients in the hallways, personally).

Marc

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Uh, try again. Still aiming low.Any Registered Nurse (only one state, North Dakota, I believe, requires a BSN for entry to practice) will make at least 50K in a hospital. Starting salaries in my region are 60K+. 

Yes, and,I was being conservative,and yet I believe the assertion was they make at least 50K ..which means we agree, these are not low-paying jobs.

No, you do not have to have a BSN to be a licensed nurse. Hospital training programs turn out LPN's.

Job tenure is often shortened for many reasons, especially in large markets like mine.

Yes, hospitals just like other corporations,force out top-earning workers for budget cuts.

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You make a good point about strong well qualified people who would love to go into nursing. Ironicaly it is not always the best students that make the best nurses, one solution might be to open up more nursing schools but make it tougher once you are there, that way people who have an appitude for it would have chance excel.

Med schools, and I am assuming Nursing schools, seem to have an attitude that once you are in you will get through. This, in my opinion, creates a wide variation in quality of doctors, and I am assuming nurses as well. Some people get into med school but really do not have the aptitude for the work. I get the impression you work in the medical profession, if so, you have probably seen first hand how the difference a good doctor makes in how quick the patient recovers from surgery.

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The transfer of high wage IT U.S. jobs to lower cost foreign workers via offshoring and H-1B visas is contributing to unprecedented levels of unemployment among American electrical, electronics and computer engineers. Offshoring and H-1B visas also pose a very serious, long-term challenge to the nation's leadership in technology and innovation, its economic prosperity, and its military and homeland security.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the U.S. Information Technology workforce consists of 3.56 million people as of the end of Q1 2006. That’s the largest IT workforce number since 2001, when the number was 3.574 million, but it’s still a dismal number. Why? BLS counts both the employed and the unemployed as part of the "IT workforce" headline number. After adjusting the headline number to account for the IT unemployment rate there are only 3.471 million IT workers actually employed in the U.S. today, less than employed in 2001

It gets worse; America's population has grown by over 15 million people since 2001 so the number of employed IT professionals has declined while the population has grown by over 15 million. In 2001, 1.25 percent of all Americans were employed in IT. In 2006, 1.19 percent of all Americans are employed in IT.

Digging yet deeper into the BLS numbers shows that many hundreds of thousands of IT workers who lost their jobs since 2002 and were lucky enough to find other IT-related employment have done so at lower salaries and are underemployed. Furthermore, people who don't find other IT-related employment are dropped from BLS statistics altogether - they are considered to have "left the labor force." The real IT unemployment rate is higher than whatever figures BLS posts in any given year or quarter, because it simply makes no allowance for the many hundreds of thousands of IT workers who remain unemployed or have take a job at WalMart. They vanish from statistical tables.

Yet, in the face of such unemployment, Microsoft chairman Bill Gates and other technology industry executives lament they are perplexed by the declining enrollment in computer science programs at the nation's universities. In March Gates personally added his voice to his company's lobbying effort to expand the number of foreign-born computer scientists allowed to work in this country under H-1B visas.

But many IT professionals question whether the scarcity of qualified employees is as dire as Gates and others claim given the high IT worker unemployment rate. There ARE unemployed U.S.-born computer scientists, many with advanced degrees, available to fill the Microsoft positions; they just cost more to employee than Chinese or Indian computer scientists.

Now the Bush Administration and his GOP controlled US Congress want to further undercut U.S.-born students, their parents and the U.S. workforce in general. President Bush and Congress are about to greatly expand the H1B and L1 “guest worker” visa programs via the giant Immigration Bill, now pending before US Congress.

Read my full OpEd article at opednews.com

 

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Newman:

....But skilled immigration often damages the developing world and encourages the US government to underinvest in upgrading the skills of native-born workers. Right now, many of the unskilled workers in the US -- who are feeling pressure from unskilled immigration -- could be fulfilling the need for higher-paid skilled work in the US. But there are no educational slots available in US schools....


Steve Clemons in March on TPMCafe:

But in the last couple of centuries, America became great because it was the single biggest "brain drain" problem for the rest of the world. The smartest and most talented people in the world came to the U.S. to pursue a higher education, escape persecution, or to chase other opportunities -- and where smart, talented people go, so goes wealth creation, social advancement, and the like... . Where is the debate, the strategy, the cost/benefit analysis of this new tax on foreign students? A communication from Senator Feinstein's office about this provision reads....

America should be promoting foreign student enrollment in public and private U.S. universities to keep America on the positive side of global brain drain realities.

Let me rephrase that -- to get America back into a positive balance -- because right now we are not luring the best and brightest from abroad. They are choosing Canada, the UK, France, Germany, and elsewhere where the border/visa interrogations are less hostile....

Side note: the last graph reminds me that I have seen evidence the immigrant nurses/brain drain on the 3rd world health topic is a big point of contention and debate in Canada as well.

There are multiple disincentives, given purely bottom line concerns, to hire US citizen IT personnel. Established salary, for all ages, tends to be higher than acceptable for H1B workers, even though the H1B legislation calls for parity or even higher than parity wages. One of the problems here is that an employer may move to a low-salary area.

In the past, relocation expense was a fairly standard benefit, but has become unusual. One of the problems of the current IT workforce is that a good deal is concentrated in larger cities or high-cost areas. While the lower cost of living in many lower-cost areas could make a lower long-term salary (with employment) competitive, someone in a high-cost area may not have the disposable cash for a move. Compare the expense of moving a household with the expense of flying in an H1B worker whose family remains behind.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

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Re: The transfer of high wage IT U.S. jobs to lower cost foreign workers via offshoring and H-1B visas is contributing to unprecedented levels of unemployment among American electrical, electronics and computer engineers.

Huh? Are you sure this isn’t a bit behind the times? Everything I’ve seen shows IT employment continuing to grow. In fact the field is generally considered one of the top ten for future (domestic) job growth. The recession of 2001 is decidedly over.
To be sure an IT job search can be frustrating (I have VERY recent experience there) because job requirements are very specific. However my own experience would seem to refute the point: In February I was laid off after a hostile takeover (the whole IT department was let go, and many other people too). I was unemployed for all of three days before starting a new job—when that job proved unacceptable to me I landed a new one (this one a temp to perm contract) ten days later, with only a two day break in employment, and, desiring to move to a new city for personal reasons (long story) it took me just eight weeks of long-distance searching for my next job, which I am now leaving for a much higher paid position (in the same new town) a month later. I am aware that not every part of the country is doing as well economically as Florida is (where I live now). The Great Lakes states are especially bad off. But I can’t say as I have found job hunting a horror story as you imply. In fact even in the recessionary times of late 2002 it took me only just three months to come up with two job offers, albeit I had to move across the country.
However if 1999, when programmers came out of the woodwork to deal with Y2K issues, is the benchmark then the stats are probably accurate—but deceptive as the situation at that time was highly unusual.
As for salary considerations I did have to accept a lower salary for a while in 2003, but I am now making 25% more than I made back in 2001.

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Thanks to rmrd0000 for laying out the institutional background. In a perfect world, you would completely split the functions of capacity planning and quality control. Any university should be allowed to open a medical school, provided the school meets quality standards set by the profession - isn't this what happens in other professions, lik engineering and law? This is clearly a matter of the supply of places not demand. There's excess demand for places at current levels of earnings; there still is in the UK with lower ones, at any rate for doctors - I'm not sure about nurses. A drive for expanded training should be part of the Democratic plan for national health care, AMA be damned.


Oh please. The AMA does not control med schools like that.

In fact, any university at any time can open up a med school and the AMA has zero control over it. There are set standards that are set by the LCME (Licensing Council on Medical Education). These guidelines are public. As long as your school meets these guidelines, you can open up as many medical schools as you want.

IN fact, thats why Florida is opening 3 new med schools within a 5 year window. The AMA had no influence over any of it.

As long as you have a few extra million dollars lying around, anybody can start a new med school. So lets quit pretending that the AMA has some kind of secret domination over creation of new med schools.

Where the AMA comes into play is with creation of residency slots where med students train AFTER med school.

This whole debate is missing a larger point, which is that the AMA has very little control of the practice of medicine.

1) Did the AMA volunteer to allow nurses the power to script medications? No, the state legislatures did.

2) Did the AMA volunteer to allow the creation of special nurse practioner programs? No.

3) Did the AMA volunteer to allow thousands of foreign medical graduates and doctors flood the USA every year? No. Nearly 40% of all residents in training are foreign medical grads. The USA takes in more foreign doctors than ALL OTHER NATIONS, COMBINED. Does that sound like a tightly held AMA monopoly to you?

4) Did the AMA volunteer to allow creation of "naturopathic" med schools whose grads can script drugs just like MDs? No.

5) Did the AMA volunteer to allow psychologists the ability to script drugs? No.

6) Did the AMA volunteer to allow the creation of CRNAs, who can do everything and anything a full blown anesthesiologist with roughly 6 more years of training? No.

For the vast monopoly quasi-labor union that you claim the AMA to be, they certainly havent done a very good job of locking up their market. Everybody and their brother scripts drugs and diagnoses diseases now, most of them dont even have medical doctorates. The only monopoly I see is perhaps surgery. I guess you advocate we hand over surgery to kids straight out of college as well?

What you also ignore is the influence of osteopathic, DO schools. DO schools have a separate accreditation body and have been expanding like wildfire.

When you look at both new DO and MD Schools, its clear that there is a massive upward ramping of programs. Since 2002, there are at least 25 new medical schools either built or in planning stages.

So get off the rhetoric of monopoly already. If the AMA ever had a monopoly, it ended about 30 years ago.

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Back to the nursing debate.

Part of the reason why there is a nursing shortage is because none of the nurses want to be "regular/generalist" RNs any longer.

Nurses who want to be NPs and play doctor, or CRNAs who make over 100k per year, have skyrocketed.

WE need more RNs and less of these "nurse specialists."

RNs get paid pretty well for jobs straight out of college. Average pay is similar to what an engineer would command.

Total growth in jobs is probably up. The problem is regional underemployment, and it appears that it's often much harder for citizen IT people to relocate. Since H1B visas grants, as I understand, are based on local shortages, there's a disincentive to assist with relocation when an H1B worker may travel single and lightly.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*