It turns out that people who live in areas with lots of immigrants have positive feelings about immigrants,

I grew up around Korean & Vietnamese immigrants. But in a heavily (legally) Hispanic area. I never had any problem with anybody. Moreover the happy Indian people have been always been quite nice.

However, they are all being driven out (and I mean driven) by the illegals.

It's one thing to have people who look different from you living in your neighborhood, it's quite another fucking thing entirely when they're waving the Mexican flag (such as 2003, when Mexico beat the US in soccer), flipping you off and taking potshots at you.

Citizens of Mexico who have moved here illegally tend not to like the US, don't like Americans, don't like actual legal immigrants, and are generally pissed off at having to live under the American flag. Which makes it difficult to live around them.

To lay down a marker: signing on with Bush on this will turn out as badly for the D's and the US as the invasion of Iraq.

ash
['God knows, Erza is doing his best Andrew Sullivan/Weekly Standard imitation.']

I've known my share of legal and illegal immigrants. I've seen much of the plight of many. I served a mission for my faith among largely latin immigrants. There's alot of blood on the hands of greedy individuals native to the US and Mexico (and other Latin states) when it comes to their exploitation of the poor and their efforts to keep our current system so convoluted and two-faced. I don't care for pompus asses who parade around here illegally, waving the flag of the country they fled, and disparaging this nation. But I do have vast sympathy for those who are genuine victims, even if they are not legal immigrants. Between genuine evilness on the part of some and complacency on the part of many we have alot to fix on this issue. I've come to love many people that I was pretty certain were not here in the states legaly. I love them for what they do and what they want to do. I don't advocate illegal immigration but I cannot say for certain that I would not have taken the same actions many of them have taken in their lives if roles were reversed. And while there's certain 'legal' violation I don't hold that as an inherent moral violation. Anyone who thinks illegal immigrants are inherently more immoral than they are are the same morons that would arrest the young man who comadered the school bus out of Louisianna and took many residents of that state to safety.

I have to say, I see nothing but anti-Hispanic racism in all the hysteria about immigration. What threat can there be from people who come here to mow your lawn, bus your table, pick your vegetables, and take care of your children? Sure, we need a way to get them into the workforce legally--and ensure that they are protected by labor laws and not out-competing native-born Americans for jobs by working for below-legal wages--but beyond that, I don't see the harm of them being here.

In response to PurpleState, perhaps you should look closer at whats happened in the bluecollar workforce. Sure theres lots of illegals doing yardwork and household jobs, but what about all the welders,heavy equipment operators, warehouse and dockworkers, the construction trades are also full of tile and insulation installers, sheetrockers,bricklayers,roofers,framers,etc., they are filling all of the trades. What will you say in oh 25 years when the only jobs left for americans are specialized tech jobs, oh wait those are being outsourced so fast that there wont be a need for americans to fill them either.That pretty much leaves entertainment,politics or are these the same thing, medical of course noone will be able to afford medical care by that time so I guess we will all have to be CEOs of major corporations sounds like the american dream to me. We dont all hate hispanics or any other immigrant group we only want the laws to be enforced and for our government to make americans and their lives first before we start giving those who come here illegally a red carpet to walk on after they get here.

in his words these illegals are invaders and bring dishonor upon his country and ours.

As if hungry people give a shit about honor. Why do conservative positions always rest on the sanctity of some arbitrary, symbolic line in the sand? Yes, lets place life and death economic decisions behind the sanctity our wealthy neighbor's byzantine body of bureaucratic regulatory nonsense drawn up during the last round of fomented-for-political-expediancy xenophobia.

It would be dishonorable to send home enough money to get our kids indoor plumbing.

No ra ra flagwaving "solutions" that don't take into account life on the other side of the border - or "demand" as we economists like to call it - will do a damn bit of good.

Look at the drug war.

You have a sad view of hungry people and their care for honor. But I say that acknowledging that honor isn't something determined by "an arbitrary, symbolic line in the sand" which is part of the reason for our current situation with immigration.

But to think that sealing the boarder and reforming how we do immigration, if that's your view of a "ra ra flagwaving 'solution'", is racist or not needed to help even the economic situation, over all, for those "south of the border" then you've some screwy conceptions about how to fix things.

A large part of the reason things have stayed so bad in Mexico is because of the de facto socialist nature of those working here just to funnel money back to the money hole that Mexico has remained. Just as our international subsidizing of the Arab world has been one of the key factors in keeping it several decades behind the rest of the world so to has the current system kept pumping resources into the wrong channel's of Mexico's economy and society. Mexico needs an economic gasp enducement to incite change, like a swim instructor for infants splashes water in the face of a baby to enduce a gasp of air before he releases the infant into the water Mexico needs to have something to help it to learn to swim without the constant dependance on the life vest it receives by enslaving a portion of it's populace north of the boarder to subsidize the crime rings etc. that feed off of that oppresive, go nowhere, system.

Perhaps you should assign some of the blame to the people hiring the illegals?

(Your fantasy that illegal immigrants will take all the jobs is amusing.)

they are filling all of the trades.

This is very true in New York City. It's both illegal and legal immigrants.

You know those famous big rat balloons the labor unions drag out when they stage a protest against a work site? Those protests are most commonly construction unions, and it's usually about a site hiring non-union immigrant labor. Just a fact. It's a long simmering thing.

As to the skilled trades, stuff like plumbing, roofing, or even something like frigging wall paper hanging or wall painting, the licensed firms with union workers all have plenty of work with big construction and with wealthy Manhattanites who will pay premium prices for the best. The rest of us in the boroughs can't even get our phone calls answered.

The licensed with legal immigrants are very busy too and are therefore quite picky about what they will condescend to do.

So when someone like "Rick" asks, as he does in a comment below:

Perhaps you should assign some of the blame to the people hiring the illegals?

The answer in New York City is: just average people do. They ask their neighbor: do you know someone who will fix my kitchen sink? boiler? leaky shower pan? extra phone line? repoint the masonry on a section of a house? And they give you a cell phone number and it's an illegal immigrant, and you gotta pay cash. You don't usually get much of a discount, either, they all know what the legal and union shops charge, and they simply charge a little less.

In my neighborhood in the Bronx, there is a local paper, lots of people use the ads if they need service of this type. I have called the want ads when I needed something in the handyman line and every single time it has been an ilegal immigrant.

It's just the way it is here, and has been for quite a few years. Like it or not, there are not a lot of non-recent-immigrant citizens who will do this work here in the New York City area. Don't know how it happened but it did, is just reality. The skilled trades especially, anything that needs training of some kind. It could be the situation that no one except recent immigrants wants to spend time training in skilled trades and few employers want to train a college kid in something when he knows the employee will not stay more than a couple of years. Certainly I know from many examples that once immigrants that are in the skilled trades become legal, they hire other people from the "old country" to do work under them, the brother-in-law, the cousin, etc.

I live with it every day in my neighborhood. Just one story, serves as s a good example: In the basement apartment next door is a guy, an older Puerto Rican roofer, near retirement age, that got his apartment because the owner of the house is a Dominican real estate speculator (flipper) who has illegals do his rehabs. (Oh, and the Dominican woman who lives on the main floor is the speculator's sister. She's here half the year and back in Dominician Republic the other half. She works when here as a nurse's aide. She has nice clothes, nice furnishings, satellite TV.) This Puerto Rican in the basement apartment is like here one week, back in Puerto Rico the next, for the last 6 months. When he's here he rents a car that's a decent one. He chats with to me when I am gardening in my back yar. He just comes to do cash roofing jobs. He told me that in Puerto Rico he doesn't do roofing anymore, he only installs roof gardens for rich folk, that he makes enough in the roofing jobs in NYC so that he can turn them down there.

Thank you. For the record, I wasn't disparaging anyone's behavior; I just wanted to neuter the word "honor" to clarify any forthcoming value-judgement statements.

That line in the sand represents the boundary of American democracy and law. If you don't think that line matters, you must not think American government matters, and therefore you will be a poor citizen of our democracy. Respecting the law and respecting America means respecting the border.

A poor citizen is one who cannot see the spirit of the law to see when maintaining a pharisaical hold on the law is counter to the maintainance of justice and the integrity of the nation's status as both a democracy and a justifiable, in terms of morality, rule of law.

To think that rule of the letter of the law should always outstrip everything just for a person to be eligible for the title of "good citizen" is a terrible omen for our country and our governing ideals.

If we judge people on strict lines of legality we'll find all of us as, or more, condemned than any of those we judge.

Truth be told the imigrants, even the illegal ones, will likely be our best chance at demographic salvation. Native US citizens, in general, have lost faith in people, more specificaly kids. We are not producing enough offspring to ensure our nations stability. Even if we were fiscaly sound in terms of future demands for retirements and for the needs of tomarow money itself is impotent without a sufficient workforce to actually pay to do the needed tasks. Other wise we can take the Japanese course and just ignore the fact that we, without high volumes of immigrants, don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting out of our demographic colapse any better than Germany, Russia, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong etc..

Again I'm not for any abandonment of the rule of law. What I'm advocating is caution in your speed to condemn as 'bad citizenry' all who've violated a pet law you may have. Because in all likely hood you are violating several unwritten laws that will have far more dire consequences for you and society than the violations commited by many an illegal immigrant.

The Border is Law Zero--the law upon which all of our other laws are based. By choosing to reside in this country legally, we are agreeing to follow all other laws of this country, and accept the consequences for violating them. If you have no reason to respect our borders, you have no reason to respect any of our other laws or our right to make laws for this land in the first place. To abandon the border is to abandon the rule of law, because the border defines where Americans have the right to make laws.

Look I'm not saying the boreder is not vital. But it's NOT the law upon which all other laws are based. US law making transends the US borders andn reaches anywhere our nation's influence goes. If it were not so we could never legaly have participated in international commerce, war, or even border expansion. The mere fact that our border is vastly greater today than it was in the past demonstrates that it is not as close to the base as you seem to think it is. Again I'm not saying it's not vital. But our laws, and the premises on which they are based, transcend all physical definitions of property and sovereignty. We are a government and people primarily of ideology, secondly of physical boarders and physical distinguishing features.

Empirically, this seems to be true. Those who are here illegally tend to ignore a great many more laws than those here legally. They're paid under the table, the don't have driver's licenses--they are simply non-persons from the perspective of the law. They are a permanent outsider class living in a shadow economy loosely connected to our own.

It takes two to tango. First there must be those who disregard their responsibility to enforce the boarder, surely a crime of omission. Then there must be those willing to pay under the table, and there must be a society willing to grant access to motor vehichles without doing more to ensure that their conveyance is done according to set standards. A great many people's omission of responsibility or willful disengagement with legal nuance needed to address these issues in a manner keeping with the inherent responsibilities of members and leaders of this nation has sought to either actively or passively profit from said willfull ambiguities and derilictions. I again find it untenable for you to hold one half as bad citizens while trying to hold the hypocritical portions, those who complain about the problems but have no issue reaping the benefits of the shadowy system, as somehow not as bad, or even as good, citizens simply because they have not broken any explicitly laid out legislation. Again it takes two to tango.

What makes America a place worth breaking into is the rule of law that enables our growing economy. Bringing Mexicans to America and breaking the law in the process will do nothing to solve poverty because lawlessness is the cause of poverty. Without the transparency that is possible only with an ordered, documented citizenry, anarchy and poverty are the inevitable result.

You think that it's current law abidance that has us so far surpassing Mexico in terms of prosperity? It has far more to do with good fortune and the good heritage left us by many in previous generations than it has anything to do with us being necesarily more moral or law abiding than those who are in the US illegaly. Yes we must maintain the highest standards tenable in a human system to have a chance at continued prosperity as we now experience such. But some legalistic super crackdown will do us more harm, expose the terrible consequences of our hypocricy, and--if taken to the extreme many advocate--literaly smash our current governmental and societal paradigm. We are too far into neglect and such to simply apply many of these 'simple' solutions. Yes we need to secure the boarder, build a fence, but if we do not deal with those here wisely, and if we fail to let sufficient numbers in after securing the boarder, then we'll have some reckoning coming that few have, or can, imagine.

I think legal immigration is great and we should have more of it. And I think cracking down on the employees of illegal immigrants is a better solution than cracking down on the immigrants themselves. (Focus on demand rather than supply). I'm even willing to admit that the problem of illegal immigrants is one that is more caused by a wink and a nod from the government and business groups rather than immigrants themselves.

First off I'm glad you want more of it. Personaly I think we need alot more of it. But I also think that cracking down on empoyers (I assume that's what you meant) is a dangerous road too. Unless you want to undo all the civil liberties laws that currently forbid any deep digging by the employer, or you make it economicaly unfeasable to obtain such compliance, then you'll open up even more cans of even bigger, uglier, and more dangerous worms than are already loosed upon the present scene.

But I'm not willing to accept the continued existence of lawless ghettos in my country. If I wanted that, I'd move south.

Something I'm glad we agree on. I just hope you don't consider the little shacks and villages I ministered to for my faith in the fields of California of being horrible "lawless ghettos." To simply have a community in which some individuals are not in this nation legaly doesn't qualify such a local as a "lawless ghetto" I've been to too many of them to realize that in many cases they can be (not all are I admit) far more aminable to good living, peaceful happy living, than many of our 'home grown' sub-urbs. I'd far prefer a country populated mostly with houses that didn't look as pretty or refined if I could receive the assurance of a humble, largely guiltless, hardworking citizenry. I've seen too many suburbs of privilage harbor more evil and societaly compromizing forces in them than I've seen of immigrant slums that truly would undermine the overall fabric of this nation or the integrity of her overiding laws and principles.

It's been a good conversation and I feel we have, overall, more in common than we have in contrast. You do seem to either have, or lean more toward, much of the nuance that I feel is needed in addressing this important issue.

Thanks for your civility.

The problem isn't the mexican people, or the hispanic-american people, the problem is and always has been the laws that govern the whole immigration mess. I've known MANY wonderful people, some actually from mexico, others who've been in america for 3-4 generations. Great people. Smart people. Motivated. That's all good and fine. No problem with them. The problem is the country of Mexico, to our south, and its' consistent failures that now result in their current and former citizens being used as pawns in what amounts to a war they lost against the US about 150 years ago.

Mexico's a hole. Despite years and billions worth of investment, and remittances, and drug profits, mexico remains a hole. Were that not the case, there would be no never ending tide of immigrants, legal, or otherwise. The fact that Mexico is a hole
is a fact to be laid at the feet of the government of that country. The fact that they have had poor domestic policy for years has now resulted in record annual immigration, mostly illegal, into the US.
The border fence is an attempt to reduce the symptoms so that the cause might finally be addressed, not as an insult to the people of mexico, the ones who are stuck between a rock and a hard place because their own government doesn't do what is necessary to pave the path to economic success. Mexico could be a net exporter of food, a global trade partner with other countries BESIDES the US, and make a mint of money doing it. Instead, they're trying to ride america's coat-tails.
It's sad, and there's a lot of good honest hard-working people whose only crime is having crossed a borderline in search of a better life, but it's still a problem that needs to be resolved, and the mexican people are the ones that need to be resolving it, not america. The US is already deeply in debt, and going deeper by the year. Congress just agreed to adding another trillion dollars to the national debt, that's after having added a trillion last year. This is an unsustainable rate of increase for the debt, which, given the ostensibly healthy state of our economy, shouldn't exist at ALL. But, as the evidence comes out about Congress, and more and more members are found out to have shady business ties and worse, the reason for the ease of passage of such high amounts of debt becomes clear, namely that Mexico's not the ONLY country here that needs some fundamental fiscal reforms.
The Bush administration has overseen, knowingly or otherwise, one of the most corrupt periods in our country's history, an embarassment to the whole country, and the best end result, I believe, is for Mexico to work hard on its' own reforms as americans work on ours. If things don't change, including the immigration rate, there will be an economic disaster, for both countries.

That is an interesting point--I can't recall the location (it may have been somewhere in Europe) but I recall hearing that some neighborhoods were experimenting with removing all traffic signs and signals and replacing them with 10-15 mph speed limits--the idea being that drivers could more effectively negotiate intersections by visual communication with the other driver through windshields. Formalized complexity can itself become a form of fuzziness, and sometimes abandoning the formal rules becomes the most efficient path.

Immediate universal enforcement of immigration laws with respect to those already in America would, indeed, be highly destructive. I don't see it that way with those who would cross the border in the future, though. This might be because I have different economic assumptions--I think with increasing automation it is no longer necessary to have a rapidly growing population.

Wow, Yglesias, thanks for informing me about on how evil my (admitted) moral shortcomings truly have been according to Rep. Sensenbrenner:

Jim Sensenbrenner on Face the Nation: people who hire illegal immigrants are "21st century slave masters . . . just as immoral as the 19th century slave masters we had to fight a civil war to get rid of."

I have an excuse, pitiful tho it may be. I was confused, I was under the mistaken impression that my Sengalese plumber had enslaved me--when I kept asking that he put back the original faucet instead of putting in the new ones he wanted, I was so afraid that he was mad that he wouldn't come back and finish the job that I scraped and bowed and gave him 150% of the fee he asked for. Oh, and that nice young guy from Guyana that helped me put together all the IKEA furniture when I moved? Who overstayed his student visa doing handyman work for cash? He stopped by a few years later to show me his two American kids, is now a radiologist technician at a nearby hospital...must have done that because he's just another Uncle Tom, I guess.

:-)

What is wrong with Japan deciding to decreae its population over the next fifty years or so?  It's a very crowded archipelago, and they may like the idea of a reduction in population. 

Instead of immigrants, the Japanese are inventing robots to do a lot of their menial tasks.  The Japanese cannot have an immigration policy like we have, because Japanese culture is very passive and introverted in some ways.  If they let in too many people from another culture, it would take them over.

"You say I'm a dreamer.  We're two of a kind.  Looking for some perfect world that we both know that we'll never find." - Thompson Twins, "Hold Me Now"

I believe the problem is still illegal immigrants and the extent they will go to in breaking U.S. laws. The neighbor I spoke of earlier is both a citizen and hispanic. He recieved a letter from the IRS yesterday informing him of several thousand in back taxes, oddly in order for him to have worked at all the jobs it lists, he would have to be faster than superman. 27 jobs in 16 states and PuertoRico all in 2years, most of the jobs overlap and everyone is attached to a mexican name. Yet he still found time to work with me and several other ranchs in the area, in fact hes been working here for the last 10 years. He'll get it straightened out eventually but it seems pretty clear that many illegals are willing to break any law we have and dont care if it hurts actual citizens. His ID was sold to several illegals in order for them to work here, it is a booming business on the otherside of the border and well much of the blame can be assigned to our governments many failures the fact remains the illegals just don't care about america or americans they only want the jobs and money to build their own dream.