uh ... maybe i've misunderstood this spanish language anthem thing, but isn't it the *same* anthem, just sung in a different language?

but maybe you're right. i think it's also ridiculous that there is a windows (WMA) version of the anthem out there as well as an apple one (AAC). i mean, i thought that this is supposed to be one nation, indivisible. why are there computer format specific NATIONAL anthems?

You speak about the National Anthem in the same terms as the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. It wasn't written until the 1800s and it wasn't made our National Anthem until 1931, if I'm not mistaken. I have no problem with someone using the music and putting some new lyrics (albeit, based somewhat on the original) to it.

If we're going to find objections to things about the National Anthem how about the way pop and R&B singers wail through the last two lines thus debasing any sentiment the words might hold or how it was based on a popular drinking song? Yes a song sung in taverns while people got sloshed on beer and ale. Tell me again how some folks expressing their love for this country in another language is so horrible?

It would be nice if we could keep the Star Spangled Banner in its native language, moreover, it would be nice if all American citizens could speak at least nominally in english. But it is not necessarily paramount. Even if many hispanic immigrants speak no english, they still face far greater pressure to learn english than english-speakers do in learning spanish.

Quoting Gettysburg:

Even if many hispanic immigrants speak no english, they still face far greater pressure to learn english than english-speakers do in learning spanish.

I know quite a few natural-born citizens of the United States of America who could benefit from facing a little more pressure to learn English!

I apologize in advance for this, but I just can't resist.   "This are came from way to make money." Shouldn't we be able to comment in English too??? </cheap shot>

Hoppy in Sacramento

Where's Jose Feliciano when you need him, eh?

First, it's something of a folk song, and the idea that you can't cover a song in Spanish or any other language is silly no matter what the song.  (It is the same song, isn't it?  It wasn't exactly clear in the article I read.) To my mind, the 'national anthem' isn't defined by the words in English; that tune and any accurate translation is still the national anthem.

Second (again, if I understand the story here), this is a political act.  The Times says:

The song, recorded by a chorus of Latin pop stars, is being distributed to Spanish-language radio stations to be played Monday morning to coincide with immigrant rights demonstrations that are scheduled in many cities across the nation.

This is a specific response to a specific issue at this moment in time - that's not the same thing as creating a new ethnic national anthem.  It's an act of political theater.

Third, the obvious joke: nobody knows the words in English, so what does it matter what language it's being sung in? 

No Hoppy, but this time Republicans ARE really going to save every stem cell, declare every blastocyst a living pain feeling human being, save every brain dead white woman, banish gays from our midst, plant a Ten Commandments Stone on every public place, slay all evildoers, AND protect the National Anthem from brown skinned people.

This guy is being satirical, right?

It’s just a matter of time before President Bush leads a parade goose stepping his way down Pennsylvania Avenue. I’m surprised he hasn’t issued an order requiring the burning of all bibles not in English, including the ancient texts in Aramaic.

You speak about the National Anthem in the same terms as the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. It wasn't written until the 1800s and it wasn't made our National Anthem until 1931, if I'm not mistaken. I have no problem with someone using the music and putting some new lyrics (albeit, based somewhat on the original) to it.

And no one would object in the slightest to find out that there were translations of the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence in other languages. Obviously there are.

It is hard to imagine how singing the national anthem in another language can offend anyone. It can only offend people who are bothered by others speaking another language in the US. In terms of Etzioni's post: it may be that the "melting pot" customs have been as he describes; it is also the case that the public school system has been the most successful implementer of the "melting pot"; but we have all noticed how the publkic schools are under attack and how hispanics as a group are now under attack (following attacks on Arabs and Muslims. The great idea of America as the melting pot where all the diverse creative energies of disparate people come and thrive is now replaced by America home of the elite, the productive members of society (as Novak) calls them, and policy must be fashioned to preserve the wealth and status of the ruling elite.

Who the heck do those furiners thing they are? During Christmas they fill the airwaves with that infernal "Felice Navidad" and now this. It sickens me to think of what's next.

Thank you! I knew there had to be some other versions of the Star Spangled Banner, perhaps even in German in some areas of the country. Now, to honor the time of the writing of The Bill of Rights, we must, perforce, sing the English drinking song words to the music of the anthem. I'm sure we could do that for the sake of authenticity and respect for the Founding Fathers, right? Seriously, this is such a manufactured controversy...which is eating of up lots of media time...leaving no space to discuss the revelations made on 60 Minutes that the current administration and president, while defending singing the Star Spangled Banner in English only, did not deign to accept the facts about Iraq which interfered with their rush to aggressive war. Gee, wonder which is more important to the future of our nation? (Think our president could sing all the words of the national anthem?)

Corvid

Yes, and one of the problems is 20 years of unchecked, unfettered illegal immigration and spectacularly shattered promises that nothing of the sort would be allowed to happen after the "regularization" of 1986.

I think Mr. Etzioni is onto something here. The Spanish-language anthem captures nicely a sometimes flag-draped aggressiveness/belligerence on the pro-amnesty side that is often expressed as an angry, wounded sense of entitlement. Thus the Spanish anthem can been seen as a lovely gesture or, equally legitimately, as a threat. (Nice anthem. Wouldn't want to see anything happen to it.)

As for the Yiddish anthem posted upthread, thanks much. I found myself reading through it several times and quietly trying to sing it. But I think context makes all the difference. In the highly charged atmosphere around illegal immigration, the Spanish anthem can take on a different meaning altogether.

The Panderer-in-Chief appears to be changing his tune. Conveniencia politica, quisas?

Yesterday I heard a comment on this whole anthem/illegal alien thing, something about a chihuaha baiting a rottweiller. Im one of those who believes its 2 issues one is the border, we have to get control of our southern border. The second is all the illegals who are already here, of course we can't just start dragging people out of their homes and deporting them randomly. Many trully are contributing to our nations diversity, but many are not! First we see our flag being waved upside down and now they are changing the words to our anthem. I dont really care to defend the anthem but in changing it the way they have, its almost for certain we will see violence on monday. Working poor americans are tired of getting left behind in order for illegal aliens to have work and a great many of our taxes spent in giving them every kind of public assistance in what can only be called a preferencial way. Choosing a communist holiday to have their protest is just getting in our faces and like the chihuahua these who turn out in americas streets will very likely discover the rottweiller has awakened.

That's a good question, whether we should have a national anthem at all. Particularly in view of the one we've got which is a horror: lousy music and militaristic bombast. Very few people remember the words. The stretch from octave to octave gives even professional singers the pip.

Nothing could be worse and, frankly, the Spanish version, now available online, isn't any worse. It has a certain charm compared to the original. Nice red and white franjas; spangled estrellas.

Lordy we're nationalistic! Now, from a purely practical point of view -- as one who has dealt with the Quebec and then Canadian two-language requirements in public documents -- English should remain the bland, common language of bizness.

But as anyone who's been around knows, speaking and reading other languages helps enormously in understanding the world and ourselves. And we can't shut out the world -- nor should we want to. Immigrants have always given us our lessons for free, if we'd just listen and watch and quit the haughty sniffing!

But there will be an official measure taken by Congress, I bet...

I do endorse raising the min. wage and documenting illegals and all immigrants. But a blanket program as is being demanded by the hispanic community is something i just find ludicris, were still trying to do the paperwork from 1986 and the fiasco of amnesty sold to americans then. I happen to live in a largly hispanic community with many illegally here. I compete daily for work with these people, Ive put in 10 hour days for 20 dollars because its the work and pay available. This is in part because of a government that has consistantly played to corporate interests instead of standing up for the family farms and ranches in our country. Both republican and democratic leaders are guilty of this. However its also due to the illegals willingness to hire on as one worker and then bring their whole family to help do the work. Its more important for american children to get an education in my world. I am a firm believer in human rights but civil rights are for legal residents of this country and defending the rights of illegals makes no sense. We desperatly need new leadership and with it balance, this will only happen with democrates winning some elections yet everytime we hear them stand up for those here illegally it shows much of the same kind of disconnect that the bushites[ the E is silent ] are guilty of. Right now I dont believe theres a single issue republicans can win, and as many of us refuse to vote for the lesser of 2 evils many will end up voting for independants, sadly this will keep the power right where it is. I personally dont give a rats butt about the anthem, it glorifies war and death, but demands and insults by those here illegally should not be tolerated. This monday i fear that since our government is willing to tolerate even encourage the anti-american stance of this protest, we will see many actual working class citizens who are'nt.

Quoting fuzzyhopper//I do endorse raising the min. wage and documenting illegals and all immigrants. But a blanket program as is being demanded by the hispanic community is something i just find ludicris, were still trying to do the paperwork from 1986 and the fiasco of amnesty sold to americans then. //

I'm sorry if I was mis-stating your true position. I too have made posts that say that the first thing that has to be done is securing the border and making sure American workers (initially low wage earners) will not be harmed. How to accomplish these ends is difficult. I also agree that a generalized strike, if successful, may backfire because people will feel that they are being blackmailed.

You are right that there has to be some backbone on the part of Democratic candidates on this issue. If they seem to be caving in  they will lose votes. My post was to point out that Republicans may be using the anthem non-issue as a means of looking strong on immigration. They will have to deal with the concerns expressed in your last post. whether any candidate can successfully counter the GOP spin machine remains to be seen

Thanks for the clarification rmrdooo, unfortunatly if we can't seperate legal from illegal immigration we have an unsolvable problem. Its kinda like getting republicans to realize they dont have one of their own in the whitehouse. But as democrates im not sure we have many of our own in congress either, this whole problem is the result of trusting our leaders on bothsides when they talk the way we want to hear but not getting mad when their actions or inactions go the opposite way, perhaps we could learn something from the french they knew how to have a revolution.

I do not think people here understand what this is all about. Our fellow citizens would be unhappy if anyone slipped in lines about rallying to their group against the rest of the country into the National Anthem. There are some things that just are not done and this is one of them. If it had been a word for word translation there would not have been a problem.

Oiy Vey, in Yiddish, I am 'Veclept'-so Beautiful-talk amongst yourselves.

Most Americans feel special reverence for the National Anthem and feel that stunts like this cheapen it regardless of who does it. I guess the only way I can explain how my neighbors feel is to say that this upsets them the same way that it would if one were to give a similar treatment to the Apostolic Creed or the Five Pillars of Islam. Just as it is considered rude to parody them for a cheap protest, the National Anthem is likewise viewed as being off limits.

If it were a word for word translation, it might be viewed as a form of pride in the country, but the fact that they changed the words for a puerile political protest offends people more then can readily be communicated over the internet.

Most Americans feel special reverence for the National Anthem and feel that stunts like this cheapen it regardless of who does it. I guess the only way I can explain how my neighbors feel is to say that this upsets them the same way that it would if one were to give a similar treatment to the Apostolic Creed or the Five Pillars of Islam. Just as it is considered rude to parody them for a cheap protest, the National Anthem is likewise viewed as being off limits.

Hmmm...the Apostles Creed....

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, the god damned maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his bastard Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary ..."

Shall I go on? I can be even more puerile if you like. Do you feel really, really bad now?

Dan K and the people who belittle how huge an issue this is for independent voters should remember what happened whren four jerk judges in Massachusetts unwittingly helped re-elect Bush by motivating hundreds of thousands of right-wing voters to mobilize, particularly in Ohio, with their gay marriage decison in late 2003. If one's goal is to enact a law along the lines of McCain-Kenney bill, and elect more progressives, it may make people feel good to sing a version of the anthem in Spanish and wave Mexian flags, but don't mistake those for effective political tactics.

Dan's right; here's a way to think of it that maybe is more palatable to those who revere anthems.

If it's that tune with words that are a translation of Francis Key's lyrics, then that's the American national anthem. If the lyrics are changed significantly, then it's not the anthem - it's another song written to the tune of what some above claim is an old and possibly bawdy drinking song. It's not the same song; you can dislike the political message it conveys, but it's not a desecration of anything.

This [...] came from way to make money.

That's about as American an origin as there could be.

The Polish Immigrant Star Spangled Banner (Chicago 1905)

O, mow widac ze wczesnym rozbrzasku zorz,

Sztandar, co powiewal, kiedy zmrok zapadal juz?

Pasow rzad i rog gwiazd, co ponad szancow mur,

w krwawa noc widnialy na tle dymow i chmur.

A kartaczow blaski i rozblyski dzial w noc oswietlaly sztandar,

co dumnie trawl.

O czyz gwiazdzisty sztandar powiewa mimo wichr i grom,

Ponad kraj wolnosci, ponad szielnych ludzi dom.

Professor John Stuart Blackton

When the Bush Administration shows the same callous regards for Iraqis as we are showing to the swing voters we are discussing, everyone on this board rightly becomes furious. Upsetting people without cause is bad strategy and is wicked when it causes risks the lives of the people who depend on us without cause.

Just because we can tamper with something does not mean we should.

Surely in the annals of protest, much of which I am sure you would acknowledge is quite legitimate, there have been far worse cases of "denigrating one's fellow citizens" than reworking the national anthem with a bit of Spanish mixed in. If somebody marched with signs that said "American corporate murderers out of Iraq!", they would really be denigrating quite a few of their fellow citizens, wouldn't they?  Is this form of protest also one that should be self-censored?   The song by comparison is a rather tame, and even respectful form of protest, and it is in any case up to the protestor to decide what form of protest will be effective, and makes precisely the point they wish to make.

And why are you so sure this is without cause? It seems to me that the composers have a definite end in view. When is it that Americans developed such ultrafine sensibilities and hypersensitivities, so that even modest tinkering with the standard form of the national anthem sets them on edge?

"Darker impulses"? You make it sound like the composers blew up a federal building. I am often sypathetic to communitarian calls for rebuilding community. But every so often Mr. Etzioni comes out with one of these defenses of cult-like, ultranationalistic  behavior, and really turns me off.  He just denigrated a whole bunch of his fellow citizens.  But he is an American, so he is free to do it.  We can criticize the content of his speech without suggesting that the speech act itself is inappropriate.  He, in turn, might very well look into the content of what the song-writers are trying to say, and tell us whether he approves or dispproves of it.

In all the communitarian fretting and lectures about the need for a distinction between liberty and license, it sometimes appears to me that "license"  means little more than forms of liberty which Mr. Etzioni finds distasteful.

This is so stupid.

I swear to god, this debate is as inane as a bunch of Trekkies debating over whether it's wrong that on the female Star Trek captain insisted upon being addressed as "ma'am" instead of "sir."

Why are we allowing ourselves to be sucked into this debate? Seriously, will our next post be titled, "No Affirmative Action Condiments! No using Salsa instead of Ketchup!"

Remember, this is a multicultural society.  Once the salsa/ketchup fissures are opened, it's only a matter of time before people decide that we must do something about people who put ketchup on eggs.