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So You Say You Want a Revolution

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According to this article, the Bush administration thinks they probably can't get a UN consensus for stern measures against Iran, but believe a narrower coalition could still get things done because "more than 50% of Iran's manufactured goods come from Europe." The article quotes an official as saying "potentially, in a couple of years there could be revolutionary conditions on the Iranian street" if we and the Europeans bring down the economic hammer of sanctions.

Now what I wonder is whether there's any historical precedent for something like that working -- externally induced economic collapse leading to revolution. This sounds to me like what we've been trying in Cuba for the past 40-odd years and that has to count as one of the least-successful regime change operations of all time. You could try and cite South Africa as a successful case, but that was really a very different situation; sanctions didn't induce bottom-up opposition to the regime (that already existed), they helped break South African elites' willingness to clamp down on the opposition. Are there other relevant examples? My memory is that revolutions are actually more common in times of prosperity (rising expectations) than under conditions of poverty (people are too busy trying to survive and are more under the thumb of the people who control the ration cards).


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The collapse of the Soviet Union occurred during a crumbling economy. I can't find historical GDP estimates, but I'm pretty sure it was headed down and not up.

I suspect that several other uprisings against the USSR in satellite nations occured during economic downtimes. But I don't have the data handy. 

I would say that sanctions played an important role in the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.  And it wasn't that the sanctions trashed the South African economy (though they did have strong effects), but the near universal international disapproval that came with the sanctions was a big factor, I think.

 

Not sure about external downturns, but it's not true that revolutions tend to come in times of prosperity, and not downturns.  The French Revolution came in the wake of a couple of very bad agricultural years.  The same can be said of the revolutions of 1848, which came at the end of the last great European famine.

 What is true is that the revolution doesn't come at the time when the economy is at its worst.  Things usual come to a head as things are starting to get better, but aren't really that much better.

But revolutions certainly don't come in times of prosperity.  I can't think of any revolutions that happened during a boom.

You could try and cite South Africa as a successful case, but that was really a very different situation; sanctions didn't induce bottom-up opposition to the regime (that already existed), they helped break South African elites' willingness to clamp down on the opposition.

Didn't read carefully enough the first time -- but I think you're wrong.  Bottom-up opposition already exists in Iran as well.  You don't have to look far to find accounts of violently oppressed protests.  And breaking the Mullahs willingness to clamp down on the opposition is precisely what is needed. 

Will sanctions have that effect?  I think that if such sanctions were as close to universal as the South African ones, they very well might.  But I also think that the chances of that kind of consensus, and those kinds of broad sanctions are very low. 

Well now that the US has toppled an anti-American secular regime in Iraq and is in the process of replacing it at great expense with an anti-American religious regime, it is only natural that the US will attempt to topple the anti-American religious regime in Iran and replace it at great expense with an anti-American secular regime there.

If sanctions do accomplish a revolutionary movement in Iran's streets to end the clerical rule, why would these revolutionaries not want Iran to be the dominant (and "nuclear capable") regional power?  And why would these revolutionaries not side with their co-religionist Palestinians against the US-supported Jews of Israel? 

Is it possible that US planners really have such a poor understanding of the Middle East or is it that the object of invasion is invasion andthe object of sanctions is sanctions?

I vote the second, the US is not hoping for a pro-US revolution, just that Iran's growth can be slowed by sanctions, but voluntary non-UN sanctions are going to be hard to maintain. 

I'd recommend abandoning the US commitment to Israel's Jewish ethnic definition and calling for the right of return to be recognized, even if peacefully and gradually, for all refugees regardless of ethnicity.  After that, that regimes in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan will be able to be pro-American without any undemocratic funny business.

Unless the US changes its commitment to Israel's ethnic composition,  the basic anti-US orientation of the entire Middle East is just something the US has to accept.

Matt clearly says externally-induced economic collapse.  Thus the French Revolution and the collapse of Soviet Russia are irrelevant.  South Africa was different in many ways, including that it was a (whites-only) democracy, so the ruling party couldn't ignore the white-owned companies which suffered. 

Sanctions have a terrible track record against dictatorships.  Mostly because they hurt ordinary people and businessmen, neither of whose support the dictatorship counts on to stay in power.  All a dictator needs are their army generals and a small elite cadre of supporters.

Another reason for the usual failure of sanctions to effect political change is that rulers threatened by sanctions generally take action to avoid having them imposed.  If sanctions are enacted, it means that the ruler believes he can handle them.

If sanctions are enacted, it means that the ruler believes he can handle them.

Exactly.  Two years from now, Iran will have learned how to enrich uranium.

If there are revolutionaries in the street, Iran will ask in public, "What do you want?  Us to suspend enrichment? OK we'll suspend enrichment now" What at that point can Germany, Japan or Italy say?

Either they say yes, or the revolutionaries stop being mad at their leaders and start being mad at the West. 

 http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/AA08Ag02.html 

"Revolutions of rising expectations occur when people begin to expect more owing to improvements in their lives. And such optimistic attitudes sometimes lead them to make demands that neither the economic nor the political system is able to meet. That frequently results in a crisis that can lead either to the transformation of these systems or to the demobilization of the groups making such demands. But in either case, optimism that goes beyond the capacity of the country to cope can create instability." ...Paul Goble

This paragraph is a quck precis of the idea MY is referring to. The link is for credit, the article not really relevant.

The notion that fifty percent of Europe is going to stop selling to Iran is a joke on the face of it. First of all, all that will do is make Iran buy somewhere else - China will be happy to sell them anything they need in exchange for a nice price on the oil China desperately needs.

Secondly, most European countries will simply find a way to evade the sanctions just as every company in every country does as a matter of course - including Halliburton which had its subsidiaries dealing with Iran, if I remember correctly.

Third, if Iran decides to retaliate against European sanctions by cutting the flow of oil to Europe, who do you think will cry "Uncle" first?

So the issue of sanctions is simply just another irrelevant red herring which has absolutely nothing to do with the main issue - running up to another major military disaster in the Middle East.

When are you people going to get with the program and realize that this is purely and simply IRAQ REDUX? It's mind-boggling to me that people can take this sort of propaganda coming from the Bush administration as worthy of serious discussion.

Get past the bullshit and start dealing with the underlying reality, please. Several notables have come to the conclusion this past week that the Bush administration is REALLY TRYING TO START ANOTHER WAR. Let's try dealing with this aspect rather than distracting and irrelevant surface issues.

The bottom line here is that Iran is going to have a nuclear energy program - and possibly a nuclear weapons program - whether you like it or not. The bottom line is also that the United States has absolutely NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to prevent this IN ANY WAY.

Now start trying to find a way out of the next Middle East war before it starts rather than four years after it starts when you're paying $20/gallon for gas at the pump and Arabs are blowing themselves up at your subway station during your commute.
 

Richard Steven Hack

www.computerproblemssolvedcheap.com 

Better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Brinton

Crane Brinton apparently originated the idea;Wiki Entry

Googling the name brings up essays on specfic historical revolutions

RSH hit a home run on this. Russia and China will continue to suck up to Iran because of the oil and the resultant money they have. I cant think of anything the EU provides that Russia and Asia can't provide.

My bet is that if the US really thinks Iran is nuclear capable, Israel will be the surrogate. They won't need much convincing, are capable, and most importantly, will only be offending its enemies. Iran is not a favorite of Arabs, so they'll complain, go to the UN, and the US will veto sanctions. Also, everyone assumes Israel has enough nuclear weapons aimed at enough Arabian lands to limit a response.

Our debacle in Iraq certainly played a role in electing the present Iranian leaders. It is the gift that keeps on giving. Surely, it also helped Hamas. And soon the big gift, Pakistan will come into play.

Those that have seen Woody Allen's "Sleeper" realize that Al Shanker's name should be replaced with Bush. Too bad we won't be around to see the remake.

I tend to agree with Richard about the emptiness of the sanctions talk. The days when the US could lead a sustained and disciplined Western sanctions regime against a large and important country like Iran have passed. The sanctions against Iraq unraveled in the late nineties, and US policies since then have only further undermined US credibility and moral authority.

And the post-Cold War policies of the past fifteen years, driven by triumphalist ideological enthusiasms, have weakened the US position in other ways, and helped limit its options in dealing with Iran. Unrelenting Western provocations, plunder and subversion inside the Russian sphere of influence, for example, and the US's seemingly uncurable, habitual hostility toward the Russian state, have Moscow worried about a new Cold War. This has helped drive a wedge between the two countries, and has probably wrecked any chance of a coordinated Russian and American approach on Iran.

However, I don't share Richard's fatalistic attitude about the eventual acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iran. That outcome can be avoided with a change in US Iran policy, and a willingness to deal directly with Iran on a broad range of regional issues. But this change in policy can only come from below, and will require a campaign to educate the American people, help them see where their true interests lie, and create political pressure on the extremist US administration and other sectors of the foreign policy establishment.

At the present time, however, the administration appears hell-bent on regime change in Iran, which leaves it with only two main types of options: the military options, and the other crackpot Hail Mary schemes for fomenting "revolution in the streets" of Iran. Both are absurd, for a variety of reasons. One of the most significant, however, is that Iran, unlike Iraq, is a true nation with an ancient history as a unified people. Iranians will likely respond as a nation to either of these two tactics, and will further weaken our position in the Middle east, endanger the lives of Americans, and isolate us globally.

There are disturbing indications that the key figures inside the administration, including the President, have adopted the lunatic fantasies of the Ledeenite wing, and now see Iran as a Hitlerian, expansionist empire, directed at its center by the evil "terror masters", who diabolically pull all the strings, and pay the bills, of global terror. The complextity of Iranian society and government are all buried under a caricature of the dictatorial Mad Mullahs brutally suppressing their people and scheming to conquer the world. And Ahmadinejad, a populist punk of limited powers, who is not even in control of the Iranian defense establishment, is elevated to the role of omnipotent dictator.

Recent Iranian overtures toward the US have been rebuffed, indicating that the rejectionists in Washington, and all who are threatened by any talk of a rapprochement between Washington and Tehran, are firmly in charge:

Iran has prepared a high-level delegation to hold wide-ranging talks with the US, but the Bush administration is resisting the agenda suggested by Tehran despite pressure from European allies to engage the Islamic republic, Iranian politicians have told the Financial Times.
The Bush administration is resisting pressure from its European allies to engage Iran directly over its alleged nuclear weapons programme rather than leave negotiations to the EU3 of France, Germany and the UK. Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German foreign minister, raised this issue with Mr Hadley this week, and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, is understood to have spoken about it with President George W. Bush.

....

Javad Zarif, the Iranian ambassador to the United Nations, stressed Iran’s willingness to talk in an opinion piece published by the New York Times on Thursday. He denied US claims that Iran had a covert nuclear weapons programme and said Iran was ready for intrusive international inspections.

Everybody should now be reading the new Sy Hersh piece in the New Yorker to get a sense of the administration thinking. It is depressing that the administration has changed so little, has learned so little from its errors, and been so successful in running the public through the very same rat's maze of disinformation and propaganda that worked so well in the run-up to Iraq. Surely once fooled is enough!

Now, given the gravity of the situation in the Middle East, and the potential for even worse, can't a case be made that Democrats should be talking about the Iran issue just a little bit more? But once again, the party seems to have drifted into an election-year obsession with domestic issues, and is positioning itself for another right-wing national security swindle and power-play. It's 2002 all over again.

I notice that while these events are going on, the regulars at America Abroad took another eight-day vacation from posting last week. The silence was only ended by a one-paragraph throwaway compliment to Max Boot of all people! There is a new article in the New York Review of Books describing the phenomenon of the the Democratic blogosphere - particularly the Daily Kos - and its role in promoting discussion and coordinated activism among Democrats. And TPMCafe is playing a very constructive role in this movement where such issues as immigration, health care and gay rights are concerned. But on the most pressing issues of national security and global affairs, where there is a vital need for massive injections of information and debate into the public sphere, it has again been missing in action. Discussion and debate of foreign affairs issues is sporadic, one-sided and unenlightening.

Re: Are there other relevant examples? My memory is that revolutions are actually more common in times of prosperity (rising expectations) than under conditions of poverty

It would be more correct to say that revolutions are more common when periods of propserity hit a rodablock and the rising expectations of them iddle class are thwarted-- especially if some people are seen as still prospering at the expsense of others. This was Russia's situation during (and because of) WWI and France situation in the late 1780s.

My fatalism about Iran getting nukes is basically because I don't see the US changing its policies. If it did - and if Israel were forced to disarm - then yes Iran probably would forego nukes. A nuclear-free zone in the Middle East would be a distinct possibility. Until Israel disarms, however, it's a pipe dream.

The America Abroad lack of interest in Iran I've mentioned before. This site appears to have utterly no interest in the fact that Bush intends to start a nuclear war in the Middle East without even getting Congressional approval, apparently. It's mind-boggling.

Of course, the Democrats are part of the War Party, so this is no surprise in the end. You'd just think some so-called "progressives" would be interested. But everybody between here and HuffPo seems to be obsessed over Republican corruption (like that's news) and tweaking various news media personalities.


Richard Steven Hack

www.computerproblemssolvedcheap.com 

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