I understand that Cheney and his group shot a large number of pheasants.  Possibly as many as 450.

If that is true, what happened to these birds?  Did they do something with the birds? 

I am not a hunter, but have no problem with RESPONSIBLE hunting, where you shoot what you can eat, and eat what you shoot.  If you shoot 450 birds, you are not a hunter, you are a murderous jerk. 

And this is the guy  who would concievably have his finger on the nuclear  button??

Accidents happen, but they always are the result of some kind of neglect, incompetence, or some chain of events. The White House  can slice it and dice it anyway it wants, but if this clown can't be trusted with a shotgun, he can't be trusted with nuclear weapons, or  state secrets. Oh, well, we knew that, didn't we?

Cheney is the type of hunter who would kill endangered species if he could, just to prove how macho he is.
 
Of course, after hearing that these quail were pen-raised and released for him, I think Cheney would hire a real hunter to bring the endangered animal to him.  Cheney would also ask that the animal be chained up, so that he will have a good clean shot while killing it.
 
Cheney is no hunter.  He is murderer with no sense of sportsmanship or morality.

<<I understand that Cheney and his group shot a large number of pheasants.  Possibly as many as 450.>>

Pheasants or Peasants? With these guys ya just never know...

The event where Cheney shot and killed 70 pheasants (reportedly a total 417 killed and 500 released) happened in Pennsylvania back in 2003.  It is not directly connected to this weekend's events, but it did generate criticism from many active hunters at the time.

The current hunting trip seems to be more typical of Cheney's hunting activities.  While it does not involve the mass slaughter of captive-bred birds, it does involve relatively small numbers of hunters on large private properties that are managed to attract and support large numbers of birds. 

This is less objectionable than events like the one he attended in 2003, but is very different from the hunting experiences of anyone that doesn't have lots of money, political connections or both.

Mr. Cheney takes medication for his various ailments. Would any of these medications affect his reaction time, perception, coordination, or any other health factors that might impact on his ability to safely operate a firearm?

Was he ok on the day of the incident? Did he sleep well the night before? Was he suffering from any other ailments,  such as a respiratory infection? Was Mr. Cheney especially tired when the accident occured? 

I am sure these are just some of the questions the media would have asked if this incident had involved John Kerry instead of Mr. Cheney. 

rainmail

Fair and Balanced

I grew up quail hunting in South Carolina and we never hunted with more than 3 people. These were not canned hunts with someone handling another persons dogs. We owned our own pointers and hunted them at least twice a week during season. We always, I repeat, ALWAYS, knew where each person was located and we had specific shooting zones when a covey was raised. The gun of choice was generally a 20 guage with an improved cylinder choke. We were good at hunting quail back then and we had thousands of acres on which to hunt, but we always hunted safely and I learned from the age of 12 on how to handle a firearm.

 I don't own any guns now other than an old pellet rifle in a closet somewhere, but I have owned shotguns, rifles, pistols and revolvers. To this day when I go into a gun shop to look at a firearm the first thing I do is check to be sure the action is cleared. There are very, very few firearm accidents, but there are a lot of people doing stupid things with guns without thinking.

Shooting someone in a hunting situation is nothing more than sheer negligence! 

The pheasant to which you referred,  were shot during a different hunting trip.  That one was in W. Pa.  He also shot (I think) 28 mallards and some other bird I don't remember on the same trip.  According to the report I heard on MSNBC (I think), they were plucked, vacuumed sealed and ready to go with him on his flight back home.  Maybe he gave them as Christmas gifts.  I can see the card now.  "Merry Christmas.  I shot this just for you.  Love, Dick."

Still, the kill rate seems excessive for one hunter, at least to this nonhunter.

The discrepancy between the Post and the Times' reporting of the distance Whitting was from Cheney is disturbing, but I've only heard the 30 yd. measurement referenced on tv. 

Thanks, Paul, for explaining the rules of the hunt.  Here in central PA, it's a mostly deer hunting region and all I know is to drive more defensively, so that I neither hit, nor get hit by an escaping deer. 

Dick Cheney's iPod Top Ten:

1) Big Spray - Billy Joel

2) Sprayed Through the Heart - Bon Jovi

3) I Sprayed the Sherrif - Bob Marley

4) Sprayed Down - DMX

5) Spray of Love - Bob Dylan

6) Bang, Bang (My Baby Sprayed Me Down) - Nanci Sinatra

7) Spray in the Dark - Ozzy Osborne

8) Hit Me with Your Best Spray - Pat Benetar

9) A Spray of Rhythem and Blues - The Beatles

10) Short Dick Man - Salt N Pepa 

Agreed - Cheney was at the very least negligent.  Another questions is was Dick Cheney drunk? It’s a reasonable question to ask two days after he accidentally shot a companion while quail hunting. The press and the police were kept in the dark for almost 24 hours after the shooting. Why? Was it just typical, Cheney-esque, knee-jerk secrecy or did the VP need time to sober up? A breathalyzer test is mandatory in most states following an accidental shooting, but it would be rendered meaningless if it were administered so long after the incident. Similarly, it’s not uncommon for a hit-and-run driver to turn himself/herself in to the police 24 hours after the incident to avoid additional alcohol related charges. Cheney has two DUIs on his record and still has the reputation around DC as a heavy drinker.

"...murderous jerk."

Tell us something about Cheney we didn't know already.

Tom

I wasn't able to open the link that you provided, but the distance between the bases on a baseball field is 90 feet.  Thus, 30 yards.

Well, the pattern with this Administration is clear enough.

Whether it's in deciding who to go to war with, in foreign policy, or where to aim, on hunting trips, they shoot at the wrong targets. 

According to themselves the VP and the Prez have NEVER done ANYTHING wrong, not once. Every action, reaction decision and position in response to anything is perfect.

 Ergo: the other guy got in the way. Why, I wouldn't be surprised if he was prosecuted for obstruction.

Get this, Dick was hunting with "Italian-made Perazzi" - don't those run for about $10k? He's a real friend of the people, no?

J. McCutchen "JmacSF"

San Francisco. CA

I used a 12 ga. and a 20

28 ga. Texas wussies

I shot my first quail at 9, and lemme tole ya this Coon Ass don't believe nothing the WH has had to say about this beginning with hunitng quail from a truck

The man was drunk and they took 24 hours off to make up their story.

I am from Lousiana. I don't believe Texans

It is, if you're talking American football.  110 yds for Canadian and 135-185 meters for Australian.

 90-130 meters for Football (soccer).

 Sorry for the pedantry.

Cheney's answer to accountability and coming forward to publicly acknowledge his fault:  cut and run.

My experience with hunters is that they are scrupulously focused on safety procedure first and foremost. I assume that a large majority of hunting accidents involve alcohol?

This question of medication brings back something about heart surgery. "Cognitive loss" is a fairly large risk after bypass surgery. What about after four surgeries?

From an article at BrightSurf.com: "Difficulty in thinking is also a widespread problem following bypass surgery, reported at many institutions. Since 1992, the Wake Forest research team has been investigating these cognitive complications following bypass surgery which normally employs the heart-lung machine."

The police report is here.

This isn't the "police report" but some kind of incomplete incident report compiled by Texas Parks and Wildlife, e.g. the game warden.  The offense report would be compiled by the county sheriff.  It would also include written witness statements.  Of interest to the sheriff, and a grand jury, would be whether an aggravated assault or deadly conduct took place. In Texas, a person commits an aggravated assault if the person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, and uses a deadly weapon in the commission of the offense.  A firearm is presumed to be a deadly weapon.  A person commits "deadly conduct" if the person recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily injury.  A person also commits an offense if he knowingly discharges a firearm at or in the direction of one or more individuals. 

This is a serious incident involving guns.  Sitting on it for almost 24 hours means they whitewashed the story, as Begala said.

If Whittington was hit by some 200 pellets as reported in Austin there is no way in hell Cheney shot him from 30 yards away. It makes no sense. A shotgun charge starts expanding as soon as it leaves the barrel and by the time its out to thirty yards the pattern could be from 4 to 8 feet in diameter, unless he was using a fully choked barrel and hunting quail with full choke is not very rewarding unless the object is to disintegrate the bird. So how do you figure out the truth? First, Cheney lies so often that anything he says is suspect, and second, if Whittington was hit by over 200 pellets, some so deeply imbedded that the surgeon was afraid to go after them it seems almost impossible that the thirty yard figure is correct. The police weren't there, they just wrote down what the Secret Service told them to write down. The Secret Service is not going to embarass Cheney, but I'm sure they will lie for him. I vote for thirty feet, not thirty yards.

Since Cheney obviously needs help differentiating a quail from a 78 year-old man, here's a quick way to tell:  the quail has two wings, the conservative Texas lawyer only has a right wing!

Johann

Does anyone have a 28 gauge shotgun shell they can cut open and count the pellets?  I tried a 12 gauge with #4 shot and got 174 pellets.  Since a 28 gauge would be less than 1/2 the size of a 12 gauge it would therefore hold less pellets.  I know using smaller shot would increase the number of pellets.  How many times was Worthington shot to get 200 pellets into his face, neck, and torso?

Was Counselor Whittington actually wearing an orange vest?  I was under the impression that loud orange clothing was for dear (and other large mammal) hunting.  Birds can see color, so hunters wear woodland-type camoflage when hunting quail, ducks, etc.

Excellent summary of field hunting, fair & balanced. It is particularly important to know exactly where your buddies are when hunting quail, since they only rise a few feet above ground. You should also be absolutely sure what may be behind the covey you are firing at. From reading the reports, it sounds as though the VP engaged in "snap-shooting", turning quickly and firing at the sound with reckless disregard for the location of his friends and without time to check his target field. My Dad would have taken my gun away and NEVER given it back if I had pulled a stunt like that.

Are we quite certain that it was 200 pellets?  Also, did the news reports indicate what Cheney was loaded with (shot, I mean, not booze). I assume it was steel shot. It's been so long since I've been quail hunting that I don't even know if lead shot is still legal.

Thomas_A

The Houston Chronicle qouted the doctor in charge of emergency services at the Corpus Christi hospital saying that Whittington has "more than ten (10) shotgun pellets embedded in his face, neck and torso.... He said the pellets will not be removed."
 

I can't speak to Texas law but in NY any shooting incident, and particularly where an individual is shot, will always result in a revocation of the hunting license. Such revocations are usually measured in years and can be as little as two and increases from there. And when the period of revocation expires the individual that had his license revoked must jump through all the hoops to get a license again. That is, approved hunter safety course etc. I once lived in Arizona, and there too, there were similar procedures for this kind of circumstance. That was over twenty years ago so it may have changed but I am inclined to think most states have similar laws in place. The simple reason for this is well understood. Most such incidents are the result of carelessness and states make a point of removing careless hunters from the field. And you can forget about a person who is intoxicated in such instances. Felony charges are the common result in cases such as that with lifetime revocation not uncommon. Here is a good page to know something about the pattern at distance with relationships to the type of shot and choke used. This is general and isn't conclusive without testing a specific weapon with the type of shell used.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/gunshot.htm

 thepeoplechoose 

 

This from "TalkingPointsMemo": 

Late Update: The Austin American-Statesman says Whittington was hit by as many as 200 pellets. Some were removed; others weren't.

The Austin American-Statesman story now says he was hit by as many as 100 pellets. Did they change it? It's fishy when basic information in a story like this keeps bouncing around.

The intelligence was fixed around shooting into the second covey.  Never mind helping your companion retrieve the first bird. 

Wonder how much Cheney reimburses you taxpayers for flying him and the secret service down to God's land  to hob nob with the cronie elites.  Doesn't appear that the royalty payments from the oil companies drilling in the Gulf will be paying the royal's tab. 

Wow!  With that kind of blood-lust one would think Darth Cheney would have jumped at the chance to serve in Nam! 

"What does having to add "Compassionate" to Conservatism tell you about the true nature of Conservatism?" Richard Joke

Clay:  Steel shot is only required over water.  You can still use lead otherwise.  Most folks who have expensive guns much preferr lead because of the wear on the barrell.  We should ask Mr. Whittengtron which he preferrs.  JH.

"Cheney knew Whittington was chasing a bird.  If he could not see Whittington, if he was not 100 percent sure of his whereabouts, he should not have taken a shot.  No bird is worth it"

Kind of goes to the point of where Mr Cheney  puts his priorities.

Is he more interested in getting off a shot, or in the lives and health of his friends and country-men. 

True, that event where Cheney "bagged" 70 pheasants was a canned "hunt" a couple years ago.

 
A woman just called into the Jerry Springer show and she put it best.

 
"That's not hunting, that's bird blasting."

It's more a matter of whether you're going to be moving around than the type of animal you're hunting.  Quail/pheasant/dove/ hunters walk about while hunting, and wear orange to make themselves visible to other hunters (in addition to other bird hunters, bird season generally coincides with deer season).  Camouflage is more for stationary hunting where you don't want the animal to see you before it gets in range, like sitting in a deer stand or a duck blind.  When quail hunting, you're not trying to sneak up on them, you want to flush them from their hiding places so that you can shoot them.

I realize this thread is really for the hunter aspects of this fiasco-and-near-tragedy, but Miss Manners has something to say. Granted, Cheney (and probably his dog) don't hunt, in the sense of the old Texan saying.  But the world has had power-maniacs with a huge sense of their own brilliance since forever.  How can it be that so many millenia after the Paleolithic, this sorry excuse for a biped doesn't have the elementary manners to say, "So sorry, old chap.  Didn't see you standing there, looking large and pink." 

Even Satan is supposed to be a man of wealth and *taste*.

 How low can this crew sink?

Despite Lou Dobbs' complaint last night that the Cheney Shooting Incident was dwarfing other issues in the news (i.e., immigration; Lou: "65 questions today about the Shooting! ONLY 17 questions about EVERY OTHER ISSUE!"), here is why the coverage is all on point:

1) The basic facts alone warrant it: The Vice President of the United States (someone the American people must depend upon for cool headedness and steely resolve under pressure), while carrying a fully loaded and cocked weapon, was startled by something around him; panicked; responded reactively; swung his shotgun around at a level, non-raised angle, and reflexively and heedlessly pulled the trigger. Thereby shooting in the face, a friend and campaign contributor who was close enough to the VP for Cheney to read the serial numbers on the man's checks.

This weekend's event, and its resulting cover-up, strikes a chord with many Americans since it seems to mimic much of the overall blustering, careless, bully image Americans have of Vice President Richard Cheney, and the generally privileged lawlessness which -- many people have felt -- seems to follow him. The VP's public opinion ratings have consistently been in the 20s for most of his tenure. The White House can only see them plummet from here.

2) The shooting affair goes right to the fears of the American people about Dick Cheney's possible unfitness for office.

The core question being asked sub-rosa in all of this coverage is the one Scott McClellan ducked the fastest during Monday's press briefing:

Whether simply by temperament, or -- as was mentioned in earlier posts on this thread -- by his physical ailments, or the impairments from his many surgeries or the effects from the many drugs his condition requires, is Dick Cheney simply not up to the task of carrying out the burdens of his high office? And should he be asked, or forced, to resign?

Is the Second Most Powerful Man in the World capable of being responsible in all situations? Of thinking clearly in a crisis? Of being morally and ethically strong? Can Americans trust him to lead?

Or is the average American now afraid to be left alone in the woods with the Vice President of the United States?

3) This affair is an extremely important moment in the political fortunes of GOP-held Washington, DC.

George W. Bush may be the Chairman of this government, but Cheney clearly is its CEO and acknowledged leader. He is their rock. If he is hobbled, physically or politically, a major section of the foundation of the GOP movement crumbles. The carefully crafted image of the White House as a testosterone-rich haven of the strong, John Wayne American (always correct; always good) sits on a precipice.

Simply put, Corpus Christi is a PR and political disaster for this White House. Their strong man "behind the curtain," is being shown to be a dangerous, reckless simpleton, with callous disregard for others around him. Hardly the strong, unwavering leader spoken about on Sunday Beltway Talking Head Shows. This White House cannot bear to lose its father figure.

Doubts among the American people have grown steadily as the country's seen the administration's overall competence level crumble. But they've always held onto personal trust for the WH's leadership.

This episode strikes to the very heart of that confidence. Hunters especially -- a sizeable segment of the GOP base -- have turned on Chaney fully. They clearly see exactly how reckless the VP was this weekend. Theirs may be the angriest of all the voices currently heard on this issue. GOPers up for re-election cannot be happy at that.

But with combining the incompetence of Katrina, the failure to capture bin Laden, the failure to secure the most vulnerable targets across this country, the spying on the communications of the Average Joe, the lack of concern to provide proper, decent jobs for the American worker, the looting of the U.S. Treasury and the total breakdown of the U.S.'s military capabilities, the cumulative effect is becoming more than the excellent White House PR machinery can withstand.

THEN, add onto that the whole unseemly 24-hr. delay / make the sheriff's deputies go away / have the Halliburton-heiress hostess become a makeshift press secretary / full-CYA boondoggle, and you're looking at the Dick Chaney Shooting Incident becoming the GOP's own version of CHAPPAQUIDDICK.

So much for the thirty yard statement. Bird shot lodged in the heart of the victim makes that implausible.

thepeoplechoose

<a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/13/144435/044">From a surgeon: What Cheney's victim may be facing</a>

 "it doesn't get a lot worse than a shotgun discharge to the face - few traumas cause pose a greater challenge to surgeons in my field."

Let's set things straight - Whittington was actually an al-Qaeda operative who was hiding in Southern Texas. Hawkeye actually bagged the #2 in the al-Qaeda chain of command disguised as a 78-year old lawyer.

America is a safer place thanks to VP Cheney's relentless hunt for terrorists.

"Anyway you put it, for Whittington to have picked up 2/3rds of the load, 30 yards is a stretch."

Another stretch is to use the term "sprayed" to refer to taking 2/3 of a shotgun load at less than 30 yards.  The proper term is "SHOT."  "Sprayed" may be an acceptable euphemism for taking 10% of the load, but not much more.  Once again 'The Daily Show' has proven to be the best news show around by using the proper term and not tiptoeing around what happened.  The rest are falling into line with language that was presumably thought up by Karl Rove in the 24 hours he helped quash the story.

If any good can come from this accident maybe it's this:  Cheney will realize fully that sending young men to war, to shoot other young men, is not a game. It's not a campaign opportunity.  It's not a talking point.  Maybe he will fully, finally realize that torture is always wrong, always.

Dream on.  Cheney and the rest of the radical right are not the sort of people who put themselves in the shoes of others.  They have, you might say, Empathy Deficit Disorder.  If you need further proof, just look at their budget priorities: cut funding for education and health so that more money can be added to Halliburton's bottom line.

A 28 gauge shotgun packs a punch. The muzzle velocity of the 28 gauge with Quail loads is greater than the 20 gauge. In fact many have better success with the 28 gauge than with the 20 gauge due to this increase muzzle velocity.

Finally, my family has guided hunts, owned one of top Duck hunting clubs in the US, been hunting for close to  fifty  years,  hosted  some of  the top  executives  in   the  country,  never  had  a  single  hunting  accidents.  POINT  IS,  hunting  accidents  are  not  common  (with  people  that  have  a  modicum  of  judgement).

It's common knowledge among the hunting-guide community in Montana/Wyoming that Cheney gets hammered on alcohol when he's out hunting. Although I no longer hunt, I was raised in a hunting family that stressed rules, safety and responsibility. When people get shot, by others or self-inflicted, alcohol is often, if not usually involved. And then there's stupidity and carelessness. And in Cheney's case, all three plus a callous disregard of others?

NADIA makes an interesting observation above, to wit: “For him to hit Wilmington he would have had to be shooting almost directly into the ground level where Wilmington was located. A good Quail hunter (or for that matter any upland wildfowl hunter) never shoots at this low of any angle to the ground plane.”

The muzzle of Cheney’s shotgun must have been horizontal to the ground rather than angling up or down. The wound radius we’ve heard of encompasses “his face, neck, chest and rib cage,” in others words the upper torso, possibly Whittington’s left side since the heart is located on the left. (Note that a pellet can migrate all around inside the torso. It is possible Whttington could live for many years and still die because a pellet suddenly dislodged inside the body and created some kind of lethal rupture.)

At any rate, the level of the muzzle could turn out to be just as important as questions about the distance between Cheney and Whittington. If the muzzle was horizontal or slightly above the plane, Whittington had to be closer than 30 yards for the shot when he was struck. I wonder if the wound radius isn’t too tightly grouped at that distance. Shouldn’t the pattern be radiated even further?

Funny, over at firedoglake there's a comment thread with several posters accusing Begala of "blaming the victim", and calling him (Begala, not Cheney) human slime and such.  What the hell are they talking about?

Something very wrong happened here. Nobody is really taking note on the fact that it was left to the "ranch's owner" to talk to the press on this.

If Cheney had had an ordinary accident, the Rove machine would be spinning it. My bet is that alcohol was involved; to say he was drunk or not is not the question. A couple of drinks an hour before would make him impaired at the time of the accident. This getting out, no matter what the actual blood level, since he does have a reputation for "tippin a few", makes him a "problem drinker". Most people don't think about how we have two alcoholics in charge - a dry one and a wet one.

The best way for Rove in this circumstance would be just what happened. A 24 hour grace period for Cheney's blood stream; turning away a sheriff's deputy that evening; then letting Katharine Armstrong make the announcement and telling the story. This creates the huge swirl of speculation and arguments that make the truth hard to get at. By handling an incident like this, Rove would be taking some huge risks, primarily by trusting Armstrong and Whittington as well as others who have not been meticulously screened, to not contradict what he comes up with. Place a few harnless distractions like 'Whittington should have spoken up', and people are not thinking serious issues. A rational discussion of this issue is now totally lost.

BTW, when shooting at a moving target (and generally they move fast, cause they're scared) a general rule of thumb is that you do not follow your target beyond what your peripheral vision was when you raised your gun. For most young adults, that is about 90 - 100 degrees to either side, a guy my age (same as Cheney) is probably more like 70 degrees at best. This is because things are moving fast, and anything beyond your peripheral vision is going to be a surprise. No? To spin around 180 degrees like he did is a silly, stupid move; a lapse of judgement.