Distortions Upon Distortions
An aside in the AP story about Italian efforts to warn the US that the Niger forgeries were fake notes: "The uranium ore, known as yellowcake, can be used to produce nuclear weapons." One important subplot of the whole Wilson/Niger affair is that this is wrong. The key (and false) factoid about Iraq's nuclear program that the administration was pushing was that if Iraq got its hands on some weapons-grade uranium it could have a nuclear bomb in about a year. As Brendan Koerner has explained the yellowcake Saddam didn't buy from Niger wasn't the right stuff anyway:
Yellowcake is a first step toward enriched uranium, but it's a long way from being weapons-grade. The powder must still be converted into uranium hexafluoride before it can be enriched, the process that makes the sort of uranium used by nuclear power plants and bomb-makers alike. Because UF6 can be easily turned into a gas, it is ideal for enrichment, which must be done in a gaseous state.
Those are the hard parts of the process. The whole question of whether or not Saddam might or might not get some yellowcake was basically irrelevant. It wouldn't have changed anything vis-















didn't Iraq already have a bunch of unprocessed Uranium lying around ?
why, yes they did, 500+ tons at Tuwaitha:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3009082.stm
and the UN was fully aware of it.
November 3, 2005 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some of the spinners are more carefully misleading about this; here's Powerline today
[Wilson] was to determine whether Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake, an essential ingredient for nonconventional weapons.
They don't say nuclear, because of course that would raise the technical baggage in terms of a claim that could be justified.
November 3, 2005 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this really gets at the heart of the accusation of "lying." While the more blatant type of falsehoods embodied in the Niger mess may have been neccesarry to sell the war to moderate, elected officials, it certainly wasn't to sell it to the conservative to moderate side of the populace at large. Remember that 50% that are still sure (I don' t know if anyone has actually done a poll on this in a while, but it was true last I checked) that Hussein was involved in 9/11? The administration didn't even have to say that one out loud, just communicate it through the type of winks and nods that made the argument that yellowcake was but a hop skip and a jumo from the A-Bomb. Heck, I know more than a few, moderate, intelligent, relatively apolitical people who believe to this day that we found those massive stocks of WMD in Iraq, from all those 42 point font We Found Em! stories, followed by the 8 point wait no we didn't retractions. I think this really undersores the neccesity of the recent moves by our Senate Minority Leader. Half the reason we need to dredge up the lies on more time is that half the people out there don't realize they were lied to.
November 3, 2005 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for bringing attention this, Matt, as it has always infuriated me. It took a collection of some of the world's best chemists and physicists,and the building of an entire (huge) national laboratory, Oak Ridge, to produce enough enriched uranium for a pair of atomic bombs. It still takes that laboratory with its massive enrichment apparatuses a fair bit of time and money - not to mention electricity - to make enough material for a bomb. That's with a whole science infrastructure that supports advanced in that kind of technology, which Iraq simply did not have. And making weapons-grade enriched uranium is a lot more enrichment (about 5 to 10 times more) than just making it for a nuclear reactor. So it's a pretty serious engineering operation to do this type of enrichment, and that's one of the reasons that weapons inspectors are so successful at finding nuclear weapons.
The idea that Saddam could just magically turn yellowcake into a bomb was always absurd, and I'd be surprised if an old DoD vet and cold war hawk like Cheney hadn't been told that many, many times. The whole yellowcake business was pretty cockamamy to begin with.
November 3, 2005 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems like another red herring. By focusing on the thing that does not really matter in order to hide the bigger lie. The bigger lie is the fact that they had every reason to believe that there was no nuclear program at all. By focusing on this yellowcake red herring it muddles the whole issue. The better to fool the American public who are not experts in nuclear technology. A la Judy Miller "everyone was wrong" oops!
November 3, 2005 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
The argument contained in the "16 words" (and it may have been an inference, only) was that by seeking uranium Saddam was evidencing his continuing intention to obtain nuclear weapons.
The form of that uranium was not relevant to the argument.
The form was, however, relevant in judging whether the statement was true. In other words should we believe that Saddam, who had plenty of uranium in Iraq, already, would be purchasing more.
November 3, 2005 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
As one who thinks that Bush's 16 words were a lie (it is only accurate to say that the British 'learned' something if you have reasonable confidence that the something is accurate) and who is mad as hell at the administration's systematic misrepresentation of WMD evidence, I must say that I don't quite get Matt's point.
The uranium purchase allegation is important because IF it were true and IF it were also true that Iraq had a means of enriching uranium then Iraq would have had a means of producing highly enriched uranium surreptitiously. The existing uranium stocks could not serve this purpose as well since this was tagged and subject to monitoring by the UN. Accordingly, if the allegations had been true, they would have been a legitimate piece of evidence pointing to a covert nuclear program.
I don't believe most commentators are confused about the natural/enriched uranium issue, though the general public may be.
November 3, 2005 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't this typical of this administration? They can't even tell their lies competently!
I can see the administration picking this up and running with it, regardless of whether it was true, plausible, or polka-dotted.
You could make the argument that Cheney and Rice going on television and saying "boo! mushroom clouds!" had more of an effect on people than any 16 words in the State of the Union. But this would be splitting hairs.
The threat was hyped, our stated process of "forcing Saddam to disarm" was just a cover story for going in and "taking him out."
Keep it simple!
November 3, 2005 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your point about yellowcake, and the famous aluminum tubes, was one I made to my brother back in the summer of 2004 when I was trying (successfully, I'm pretty sure) to convince him not to vote for Bush. I told him something akin to this:
There are eight or nine people who have commented on this item here. Saying that Saddam was going to build a nuclear bomb because he had yellowcake and aluminum tubes is like me saying that the nine of us are going to win the NBA championship this year because I know where I can lay my hands on a couple of basketballs.
Certainly they are necessary items, but hardly sufficient to the task at hand.
November 3, 2005 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Dept of Energy has the experts in turning uranium into the input for a nuclear weapon. They oversee the job for the US weapons.
By my memory,
DOE did the initial analysis and raised all the logical and logistical arguments about why it made no sense to see the uranium in terms of risk to US
DOE folks were part of the intelligence community analysis but when the final version got put together, DOE was represented by a non-nuclear expert who did not push for the DOE experts' views.
So this was another avenue of expertise closed off in the final intelligence reporting.
FYI - Iraq had/going to have uranium is of so little risk and probability as to be neglibile. The US faces a far greater risk and probability of a country or group getting the materials from the former Soviet Union (Rusia and countries in old SU) than Iraq. (Sam Nunn and company are fierce advocates for getting those materials out of the old Soviet Union since they are so poorly secured.
But nuclear materials in the old SU did not fit the preconceived anti Iraq planning.
November 3, 2005 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, this post doesn't make much sense.
Let's use an analogy. You accuse me of wanting to make macaroni and cheese for dinner. I say that I don't want to make mac & cheese. Then you find out that I went to the grocery store earlier and bought a box of elbow noodles. Does this support your accusation? Of course! Matthew argues that it is irrelevant because I would still have to buy cheese & butter, turn on the stove, heat the water & cook the noodles, etc. But the fact that I hadn't completed steps B, C, D & E in making mac & cheese for dinner doesn't mean that step A - buying the noodles - isn't evidence to support your accusation.
November 3, 2005 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your analogy is too simplistic.
The point here is that to get from yellowcake to a working bomb takes about a million steps, not 5.
And the Bush Administration was trying to tell us that Saddam was at step 999,997 while in fact they were only at step #2.
(Oh, it turned out that even THAT wasn't true. They hadn't even tried to buy the the "macaroni"!)
November 3, 2005 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Matt good post.
The point of the science is that it dismisses the yellowcake story out of hand from day 1, Oct 2002.
They couldn't use yellowcake. They never successfully made nuke material with the stuff they had in the 90s.
So it didn't make any sense for them to buy yellowcake. I think the nuclear physicist Gordon Prather made this point about 100 times before the war.
November 3, 2005 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry "stuff they had in the 80s".
November 3, 2005 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the Bush Administration was trying to tell us that Saddam was at step 999,997 while in fact they were only at step #2.
That is not true. What the Bush administration said (usually) was that Saddam was trying to get to step 1,000,000, and if he got there, there would be mushroom clouds over New York City.
I don't remember anyone claiming that Saddam had highly enriched uranium. If you know of any quotes, point them out.
November 3, 2005 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I note that you ignored the fact that it turned out Saddam wasn't trying to obtain yellowcake, the premise of your whole analogy. Why is that?
November 3, 2005 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
You may be right about quotes specifically dealing with enriched uranium, but they most certainly made statements about 'mushroom clouds' and said Saddam was a year or two away from having nuclear devices.
Yes, I agree. There is no question in my mind that the administration lied and exaggerated. I still remember watching Rumsfeld in a press conference saying, in no uncertain terms "We know where the weapons are. As soon as the country is secure, we will go get them".
Furthermore, the administration did use false evidence. The Niger yellowcake and the aluminum tubes are two great examples.
I note that you ignored the fact that it turned out Saddam wasn't trying to obtain yellowcake, the premise of your whole analogy. Why is that?
I didn't mean to ignore anything - I was just trying to deal with one specific topic.
In fact, I think we really should be focusing on the fact that Saddam did not try and get yellowcake from Niger. That is a lie. That fact that Matthew Yglesias didn't realize that yellowcake was a long ways from a bomb really doesn't interest me that much.
November 3, 2005 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, but Matt and Brendan Koerner don't have it quite right either.
I do think that if one is going to comment on the science, one should take some time to learn what the science is.
Some of the previous comments come close, but none of them is quite right either.
The analogy of the macaroni is correct: without yellowcake or equivalent, you can't get the fissionable material for a nuclear weapon.
It's also correct that you need quite a few steps to go from yellowcake to the metallic U-235 that is part of a nuclear weapon.
The Koerner article isn't quite wrong, but it isn't quite right, either. "The precious radioactive element" could refer to U-238 or U-235 in the context. The following percentages then refer to total uranium, which could be "the precious radioactive element."
Yes, UF6 "can easily be turned into a gas," by heating, but that's not the most notable feature of that whole step. The general confusion in most popular accounts between physical and chemical transformations further muddies this sentence.
The article reads like Koerner got an explanation from Matt Bunn (who I would expect to know this stuff), didn't understand it, and did his best to write it up for Slate.
Then Yglesias doesn't quite understand what Koerner is saying, so he can say stuff like
the yellowcake Saddam didn't buy from Niger wasn't the right stuff anyway:
The right stuff for what? If Saddam had the right facilities, it was the right stuff. Metallic U-235 would have been better, yes. A fully operational nuclear weapon stolen from a nuclear power would be better still.
The seriousness of the Niger forgeries lies elsewhere. It's not improbable that Saddam would have tried to get unaccountable uranium (unlike that at Tuwaitha) for a program. It's more improbable that Niger would have sent it to him.
This whole thread is irrelevant to the leak investigation. If you don't understand the science, don't try to discuss it.
November 4, 2005 5:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
No one has denied that Saddam would never stop "shopping around". He might have switched from building to buying, but this was his top priority for the last thirty years. Not going to war meant 'keeping him in a box' until Saddam dies of old age. Or maybe when Uday and Qusay die of old age.
And during this time, we watch Saddam carefully, and if he does anything rash -- we swoop down upon him in the last minute. And the CIA will give us the warning signal six months in advance? Anyone trust them that much?November 5, 2005 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink