What Number?
The Washington Post, in the course of editorializing on the Libby indictment, refers to "Mr. Fitzgerald's distressing decision to force a number of journalists to testify about conversations with a confidential source." But isn't the number of journalists forced to testify about conversations with a confidential source here the number zero?
What happened here was that Libby himself described to investigators the contents of discussions he'd had with some journalists. Fitzgerald had doubts about the accuracy of that description, hence his desire to hear testimony from journalists. But Libby -- not Fitzgerald, not Tim Russert, not Mat Cooper, and not Judith Miller -- was the one who revealed that he'd talked to these journalists (note also that he wasn't a "source" of Russert's in any sense, he was complaining about an MSNBC report, not was he a source for anything Miller actually wrote, I'm not sure the Cooper case is clear), thus eliminating any question of confidentiality. The principle that journalists should be able to acquire information from sources while keeping the identity of the sources confidential is an important one. The alleged principle that journalists should be able to keep the content of what their sources tell them secret is silly. That's not a principle at all. The whole point of having sources is to relay what they told you. A source who's already outed himself as your source can't have any reasonable expectation that you'll conceal what he told you. That doesn't make any sense.


The point you are making is a good one, especially vis-a-vis discussions on what any possible shield law(s) might address.
But at the same time, you should get the reason most people instinctively chafe at a prosecutor wanting information about something you haven't broadcast or published, but is just in your head! How do you separate something someone told you "for work" and something someone told you "not for work."? It's not really even that much about the press....it's that Kafka thing about prosecutors...everyone naturally wants as much freedom and privacy as possible. It's why we all reacted negatively to Ken Starr subpoeaning Monica's book purchase records, or taking the entire contents of her computer.
Fitzgerald addressed this well in his press conference, I thought: in his very impassioned explanation of why he needed the reporter's input, how he took it very seriously, and that he does not think it should be a common practice to subpoena the work of reporters. It's a very sticky problem because prosecutors have an awesome terrible power in this country; if you don't have the funds to have a good lawyer to make deals with them, they truly can just rifle through your whole life and look for all kinds of other things on the basis of 'need to know.'
October 29, 2005 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, I was struck by good news for journalists. One bit of news, both good and bad, lay in Fitzgerald's decision to focus on perjury and his stated reasons for doing so. A conviction for leaking classified documents or for outing an undercover agent, he suggests, are too hard to come by, given the burden of proving knowledge and state of mind: that the leader knew the documents were classified or the agent was undercover. This is especially noteworthy as he was hired to investigate just such charges. In other words, he's all but dismissing the entire task he was asked to pursue.
Now, we may all hate the thought of prosecutions for leaks, because leakers have acted heroically to stem abuse of power, because it could endanger press freedom, and because it could discourage press sources generally. We may wish, conversely, that the truly awful outing of an agent, endangering lives and security, could be pursued, especially if it gets the Bushies in deep trouble. But no question the press comes off clean. No one's even going near charging Novak and other "leakees" with anything.
The other good news as regards the press is that the whole episode seems to have emboldened the press by making the Bushies look vulnerable and making critical coverage of them safer and more marketable. We might even get a little more like it now, as with already the identification of Mr. A, although with the So-Called Liberal Media one had better not hold one's breath. (Did any paper even devote an article, say, to Kerry's speech slamming the crimes as what it is, the result of a policy of deception in order to stage a stupid war, plus a policy of smearing anyone who opposes you?) So I suggest the Post shut up and get reporting.
October 29, 2005 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
A reporter is not just protecting a source. She is protecting the fact that "this source told me X." Unless she knows exactly what the source told the prosecutor, she would have no idea what she could or could not say without violating her confidentiality agreement with the source. And there's no good way around that problem, because the prosecutor can't tell her what the source said (both because he would be revealing grand jury testimony and because he wants to get the reporter's independent recollection of the conversation).
In this particular case, Judith Miller promised Scooter Libby that she would not tell anyone that he told her about Wilson's wife. Unless she knows that Libby told Fitzgerald that he told Miller about Wilson's wife, she's in a pickle when she gets that subpoena. And don't forget that Libby did *not* admit this to Fitzgerald. He never revealed the essential secret being protected here. Like it or not (and like her or not), she was eventually forced to reveal something she had promised not to reveal.
October 29, 2005 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Libby -- not Fitzgerald, not Tim Russert, not Mat Cooper, and not Judith Miller -- was the one who revealed that he'd talked to these journalists
Good point, just like it was Joe Wilson, not Libby not Rove not Dick Chenny, who told the world his wife was a "covert" agent at the CIA...
October 29, 2005 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFCWallace--
Please explain that talking point. I've heard it many times, but I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.
Thanks, and Keep the Faith.
October 29, 2005 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. Plame was working openly at the CIA.
2. Wilson claimed he was sent on the Niger trip "as the result of a request by the VP."
3. Novack (and some others) asked the admin officials why they sent an "outspoken critic" of the administration on the mission.
4. Libby (and Rove or Unnamed Admin. Official "A") condunted inquiries about the trip and found out Wilson was recommended to go by his wife, who works at the agency.
5. Libby(or Rove...) told Novack (and the other reporters) it was Wilson's wife at the CIA that recommended him, not Chenney.
6. Wilson, came out in public and said that the Administration, in an attempt to quiet him, outed his wife, an undercover agent at the CIA.
Until his public claim noone (publicly) knew his wife had ever had an undercover status, even after the Novack article, all Novack reported was that she worked there (which again she was doing publicly, Wilson even refered to her as his "CIA wife" in public). Since there are hundreds of CIA employee's who are not "covert" and never will be, noone would make the jump from employee to former "covert" agent until Wilson outed her.
October 29, 2005 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
...But on July 14, 2003, our lives were irrevocably changed. That was the day columnist Robert Novak identified Valerie as an operative, divulging a secret that had been known only to me, her parents and her brother.
Valerie told me later that it was like being hit in the stomach. Twenty years of service had gone down the drain. She immediately started jotting down a checklist of things she needed to do to limit the damage to people she knew and to projects she was working on. She wondered how her friends would feel when they learned that what they thought they knew about her was a lie....
By Joseph C. Wilson IV in the Los Angeles Times, October 29, 2005
October 29, 2005 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's ridiculous. Libby's indictment states on page 3, paragraph f, that Vlarie Plame's employment by the CIA was classified and that her affiliation with the CIA wasn't common knowledge outside the intelligence community. What's the source of your ridiculous assertions?
October 29, 2005 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The public record offers no indication that Mr. Libby or any other official deliberately exposed Ms. Plame to punish her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. Rather, Mr. Libby and other officials, including Karl Rove, the White House deputy chief of staff, apparently were seeking to combat the sensational allegations of a critic. They may have believed that Ms. Plame's involvement was an important part of their story of why Mr. Wilson was sent to investigate claims that Iraq sought uranium ore from Niger, and why his subsequent -- and mostly erroneous -- allegations that the administration twisted that small part of the case against Saddam Hussein should not be credited. To criminalize such discussions between officials and reporters would run counter to the public interest. (Emphasis mine)
The questions I would have for the WaPo editors is why they believe leaking Valerie Plame's name to the press served any interest but to punish Wilson. Secondly, given the fact the NSC's second-in-command has admitted the inclusion of the '16 words' in the SoTU was a mistake--how were Wilson's subsequent allegations largely erroneous?
October 29, 2005 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
this was meant to be a reply to scfwallace
October 29, 2005 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
BobN - Why would she be protecting that "this source told me this." Didn't he tell it to her with the intent that it be published and that she could rely on its truth because he was saying it? Once Libby says that he spoke to her, why would the contents of that exchange be protected?
October 29, 2005 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jadegold, I would have the same questions for the WP.
Joe Wilson's information was correct. The president's statement was wrong, and he admitted it. Who sent Joe Wilson to Niger is irrelevant, a distraction.
The statement in the SOTU was meant to mislead. Look at the weaselly wording: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
October 29, 2005 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why can't the WaPo editors understand they are not making a logical or defensible case":
"no indication that Mr. Libby or any other official deliberately exposed Ms. Plame to punish her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. Rather, Mr. Libby and other officials, including Karl Rove, the White House deputy chief of staff, apparently were seeking to combat the sensational allegations of a critic."
WaPo should ask themselves why would the Administration try to dispute Wilson's statements by bringing in his wife at all?
Surely WaPo knows enough about federal organizations and in fact almost any organization to understand that a spouse does not have authority to send their spouse on a trip.
Surely WaPo does not believe that the political action to counter Wilson justifies publicly reveal a CIA officer.
October 29, 2005 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you are a journalist, you don't get your phone calls returned in today's washington by embarrasing officials who expected their conversations with you to be kept quiet due to the cultural norms that rule the day rather than the strict tenants of good journalism. The effect is circular because the journalist can rationalize by noting that the official would have never talked to him if the official had understood the conversation was not technically protected so the journalist had a moral duty not divulge based not on his professional tenants, but an implicit (or even explicit) personal promise to keep it off the record.
This is made worse by the incenstous nature of D.C. social functions. A good representation of this is Almost Famous, there is a lot of pressure to be part of the band's entourage instead of an observer of it. The childish hurt the band members feel after reading an accurate reporting of their behavior by a reporter they gave access to is fairly realistic of how the D.C. elite feel when their egos are bruised.
This explains why Timmy fought the subpoena to testify even though he had no legitimate basis to invoke confidentiality. But once NBC couldn't quash the subpoena, he testified readily when the calculus was between jail and honoring a D.C. code that had nothing to do with journalistic ethics. He was reluctantly willing to burn some bridges rather than do time. Miller's situation seems different, she refused to testify to prevent contradicting a friend, probably with the implicit promise of being rewarded with administration exclusives (the things a tightly controlled Bush White House can hand out like candy to compliant jouranlists, think Bob Woodward).
She also seems to be a true believer in the cause (proved fucking right and all), Timmy and his ilk know the score even if they cynically play an "objectivity" game that balances bullshit lies against demonstrable facts on a he said/she said tight rope.
October 29, 2005 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
washerdreyer: A better way to understand this is to ask, "What promise has the reporter made to the source?" The reporter has promised the source that she will not reveal the fact that he told her X. She can report X, attributed to an anonymous source (let's hope more than one). She could, depending on the circumstances, even reveal that she has talked to the source. But what she cannot do is break that promise, because that would expose the source to whatever harm the source feared in insisting on anonymity. (The fact that many of us would wish all that harm and more on Mr. Libby does not change the way a reporter would have to look at the question.)
To your last sentence, remember that Miller did not know for a fact that Libby told Fitzgerald anything about their conversation, let alone that he had discused Wilson's wife with her.
Imagine it's not Libby. Imagine it's Daniel Ellsberg, and a prosecutor is trying to find out who leaked the Pentagon Papers. Even if Ellsberg admitted to the prosecutor that he spoke to the reporter, and even if the reporter knew this, she still shouldn't tell the prosecutor that Ellsberg gave her the papers, should she? (Note: The imperfections of the Libby-Ellsberg analogy are conceded.)
October 29, 2005 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bob,
atrios makes the point today that Libby called Russert as DC Bureau Chief, not vice versa, and complained about the way NBC had covered something. Russert says he remembers this because he called the President of NBC to pass the complaint along.
The only way that the Post's complaint makes any sense at all is if you assume that all conversations with reporters are always, by default, confidential, and that you are only speaking for the record when you explicitly say so.
That, in my experience, is in fact close to how it really works. Even in a small story in a trade magazine or a suburban daily, you talk to the reporter, help them understand some part of the story and then work out with them a quote that'll run. You're really never "on the record."
But this does not in the least bit comport with what these people say happens when dealing with sources like Libby. Journalists claim that the default mode of conversation is on the record, and that special arrangements are necessary to go off the record.
In point of fact, I think journalists have not been telling the truth about how they do business. In any case, Tim Russert certainly should not have gotten up on his hind legs and yelled first amendment in order not to tell a prosecutor investigating a national security case that an administration official called him to complain about some aspect of news coverage.
Let me add, while I'm on the subject that Russert has taken a log of crap in the blogosphere over how he has handled this--his unwillingness to speak out in his various venues in particular. It has proven to be the case that he has acted in an exemplary fashion, while taking much abuse. It may well have been very important that Libby not know what Russert was asked, or why he was interviewed. Russert's following Fitzgerald's request to keep silent helped the cause of justice, and he should be lauded for it, especially by those who heaped speculative calumny on him.
October 29, 2005 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
it says she worked in the WMD Department, no mention of her former "covert" status. When she got married, had kids, and went to work openly at CIA headquarters, she was "just another employee" until her husband brought up her former covert status, to deflect critacism from himself, and his goal. Joe Wilson was thwe first person to say publicly that she was evert a "covert" or "undercover" operative.
October 29, 2005 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
On Miller, Fitzgerald made it very clear he had no choice. The story that Libby was telling the grand jury was that she had told him about Mrs. Wilson. This was the central point of the case. It's in fact hard to imagine a different way to out a covert agent, except through a reporter. Are you saying that if I tell a reporter, I should be exempt from the statute?
October 29, 2005 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
think Bob Woodward).
I am thinking Bob Woodward and wondering if he wrote the editorial. Isn't he writing a book about Bush's second term?
October 29, 2005 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFCWallace,
man, you solved the case! How'd you do that?! I guess Fitzgerald can call off the investigation, since this is exactly what he's trying to determine.
Boris
October 29, 2005 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, replied in the wrong spot.
October 29, 2005 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFCWallace,
man, you solved the case! How'd you do that?! I guess Fitzgerald can call off the investigation, since this is exactly what he's trying to determine.
Boris
October 29, 2005 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jay: The vast majority of all reporting is done on the record. And, as I suspect you'll agree, a lot of what's done off the record really doesn't need to be. But off-the-record is going to be SOP for White House officials outside the press office, and that's been true for a long time. (It's one reason why reporters should pay less attention to what White House officials say.)
I don't know the details of Russert's case, but he clearly wasn't interviewing Libby in that conversation, offered no pledge of confidentiality to Libby, and was under no obligation to protect anything *from that conversation.*
That said, when Russert gets a subpoena he really doesn't know exactly what Fitzgerald is looking for and what he might be asked. Maybe Russert has interviewed Libby on background on other occasions. These are very tough situations for a reporter, there are no clear rules, and we need to cut them some slack as they struggle to deal with each case. (Note: That does not mean we need to cut anybody slack for inexcusably bad reporting.)
October 29, 2005 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
But her cover was that she was an independent energy analyst working for a non-government firm.
It was Novak's article that blew that cover and exposed her as a CIA asset working for a CIA cover firm. After that article by Novak, Valerie Plame Wilson's covert career was over, and so was every operation she was involved in.
It was Novak's column that did the damage. Wilson's statements merely clarified to the public the level of the damage Novak and his leakers had done.
Absent Novak's column, Joe Wilson would not have published anything about his wife's CIA affiliation. That would have been revealing classified information. By the time Wilson wrote about her previous covert status, Novak'; column had put it in the public arena. It was already common knowledge after Novak.
October 29, 2005 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFWallace, you either can't read or you don't know what an operative is.
"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."
And no, it was not public knowledge that Plame worked at the CIA. In point of fact, no one outside her family knew. Give up the B.S, man. The only way someone oculd have found out she worked for the CIA was to tail her to work, and if someone had reason to tail her to work her cover was blown anyway.
WaPo:
hen I first met Joe and Valerie, I quickly got to the classic Washington question: What do you do? Joe explained that he was a former ambassador to a number of African countries, who had worked in both the Bush I and Clinton administrations.
Valerie's answer was more than a little vague. She quickly said she was a consultant. As a fourth-generation Washingtonian, I have learned that when someone says, "I'm a consultant," that is a cue to back off, as it usually means the person is unemployed or "between engagements."
So, from 1998 to July 14, 2003, we were simply neighbors sharing cookouts. ...
That surprise was nothing compared with the shock I experienced 10 days later. On that sunny Monday morning, I was sitting outside at the table on my deck, having breakfast and reading The Washington Post. When I turned to the op-ed pages, I noticed a column by Novak entitled "Mission to Niger," addressing Joe's op-ed the previous week. I was stunned to read that "Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction," citing two administration officials as sources.
More WaPo:
NY Times:
What I'm wondering is why journalists haven't taken more flak. If someone indulges a plan to commit murder to a journalist, can the journalist plead that it was off the record? No, and neither should the journalist be able to with any other crime. There's nothing particularly subtle or difficult about that line. If this makes Washington officials more relunctant to approach reporters for the purposes of outing CIA agents, so much the better.
October 29, 2005 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
But her cover was that she was an independent energy analyst working for a non-government firm.
That was her cover, before she married Wilson, had kids and went to work "openly" at CIA headquarters. Wilson refered to her in public as his "CIA wife" when introducing her. All kinds of people knew she "worked" at the CIA. Wilson told everyone she used to be a "covert operative."
October 29, 2005 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFWallace, you either can't read or you don't know what an operative is.
Actually I can read quite well thank you, I do have trouble typing sometimes, when I go too fast, I'll drop a letter or add afew. Anyway, and "operative" is anyone who works in "Operations" (that's a division of the agency like logistics or security) which is why there is a distinction made about "Covert" operatives, and only a crime to knowingly out a "covert" operative. The first referance anywhere in print to her "covert" staus was made by Wilson himself. Unless I missed it in the Novak piece (which I really doubt or you would have linked to it).
October 29, 2005 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It sounds to me some journalists are still behind the curve. If the guy doing the leaking (Libby) is the same guy telling the prosecutor that it's the reporters who were doing the leaking, should the anonymous source protocols still hold? If you were to accuse me of being the leaker, and I have to talk to the prosecutor, all bets are off. Of course the journalists in this case probably didn't know that at the time but Fitzgerald understood the situation clearly: this was not a normal first amendment situation.
I suppose, if one wants to go there, the cynical lesson for government officials is: don't accuse the press of your crime.
October 29, 2005 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
thanks. And thanks very much for your initial reply, because I have clearer understanding of what Libby was doing by getting this story out to reporters he believed would not cite him as the source, and then testify that they were the source. Speaking very narrowly, it seems to me that neither Miller, nor Cooper, nor Russert could object to answering the question "Did you tell Libby about Valerie Wilson's CIA status?"
I have some chores to attend to at the moment, but would like to continue this discussion. I've been wishing that someone who clearly understood the issues from the journalist's side would post here, and I really appreciate your doing so. Could I ask a favor? I think I wouldn't be alone in appreciating your starting a discussion thread of your own on this topic. While it's on topic here, thread management is going to get out of hand.
October 29, 2005 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
October 29, 2005 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
SFC Wallace and bjm/Boris should carefully read the Indictment of LIBBY which they can find on the internet and they will find that Patrick Fitzgerald knows a whole lot more about this case than they do and they should also keep in mind that Patrick Fitzgerald knows a whole lot more about this case than was expressed in this particular indictment, the important aspects of which will no doubt come to light in weeks and perhaps months to come.
October 29, 2005 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The WaPo editorial board have been cheerleaders for this War of Mass deception from day one. They are not yet willing to admit that they were too slow-witted or too craven to oppose Bush then, and they still try to belittle Wilson. What they should do is apologize to the country for taking the WAaPo down to such a low level from the high level that Ben Bradlee and Katherine Graham had it.
October 29, 2005 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't Novak call her an "operative"in the article in question? I think Josh showed pretty clearly a while back at talkingpointsmemo.com trhat when Novak had written about "operatives" in previous articles he was referring to covert agents.
October 29, 2005 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
How, precisely, do you start a discussion thread?
October 29, 2005 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, I guess it's your logic that's atrocious. It is a crime to reveal the identity of a covert operative as an operative. No one gives a damn if the word "covert" is used or not. The whole point of being covert is that no one knows your an operative at all. This should be blindingly obvious, but if you're sufficiently invested in never admitting an administration you support committed a crime, I guess you can twist your brain until being covert has some completely different purpose than hiding that you're an operative for the CIA.
When Novak wrote his column, it became impossible for Valerie Plame to do her job and all her contacts' lives were put at risk. That's the crime. That's why the White House and not Wilson are under investigation.
October 29, 2005 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Under the MyTPMCafe you should see a menu choice "Discuss."
From the FAQ:
To submit a post to a discussion table, click “Discuss” under MyTPMCafe.
Site moderators moderate the discussions. So wait and see if your post is accepted.
October 29, 2005 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me add, while I'm on the subject that Russert has taken a log of crap in the blogosphere over how he has handled this--his unwillingness to speak out in his various venues in particular.
I've never had a problem with Russert refusing to tell what he knew - only with his continuing to cover the story while refusing to speak out. He should have recused himself from covering the story.
October 29, 2005 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wilson refered to her in public as his "CIA wife" when introducing her. All kinds of people knew she "worked" at the CIA. Wilson told everyone she used to be a "covert operative."
I would be interested to see any documentation of that from independent sources. The most recent stories I have read showed that Fitzgerald was very recently directing his investigators to question the Wilson's friends and neighbors to see if they knew of her CIA status, and the reports are coming back uniflrmly that they did not before Novak's column.
October 29, 2005 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
The market for access has been spun off from the market for information.