Cool.  I think we may have a spare division in our other pair of pants...

I listened to an interview with the foreign minister (I believe) last night and he said that Pakistan had requested heavy lift Chinook helicopters from the US.  The talking head asked him how many troops would be coming and he very excitedly said " No troops!  No, we did not request any troops- just the equipment".

Well, Pervez, why not?  Afraid we'd find Bin Laden?  Don't worry about your population- when they are cold and hungry enough, it won't matter if the MRE comes from an American soldier or a Pakistani.... 

You people are sick.  Pakistan probably lost 10 times the number of people we lost on 911 and the only thing you can think of is turning a rescue mission into a war. 

There are all kinds of ways of responding to your idea, and the one which says, Jeez, aren't you  being a little tasteless? works well for me.  Other ways of looking at the proposition are:

-If Bush really wanted bin Laden, he'd have him by now.

-This is not the sort of thing we could count on the Bush administration (Screw-up Central)  to carry off with the needed subtlety, competence, and aplomb.

-It would have to be fail-safe or the rest of the world would really have it in for us.

-It would do us no harm right now to have done something wholly selfless and with complete competence, if possible (big if).  In fact, it might do us a helluva lot more good in the long run to just plain help --  show some brotherhood, perhaps lay some groundwork for a more peaceful situation in Kashmir -- than boast about having located bin Laden

-Everybody who's anybody knows (they say) that anti-US/capitalist/west terrorist groups may be inspired by bin Laden but they wouldn't go away if he were captured.  In fact, they might get even more recruits.  The passions driving the current outbreak of terrorism are a planet-wide problem, not solved by weird intelligence activities in the mountains of Pakistan/Afghanistan, a black budget, more overpaid Hallibuggers, and subsequent blurry photos of a perp walk.

Excuse me, but are you effing crazy? We sneak a bunch of spooks into the country on the pretext of helping with earthquake recovery & it is of course obvious to everyone on the ground who the spooks are. In the future, all out humanitarian acts around the world are poisoned by suspicion & rightly so. You want Osama? Go help the people who have been wiped out. Just help them. The good will generated is exactly what Osama fears. And we don't screw ourselves going forward. Also, last time I checked, Pakistan was a sovreign nation & "sending a division" would require an invitation, unless you want another war, that is. Sheesh.

There are many ways we can assist Pakistan.  Heavy equipment, rescue dogs, supplies, etc.  Sending troops in, even if we weren't stretched too thin already, should be the last thing we do at this time...especially to track Bin Laden.

We do not know what is best for Pakistan, nor do we know what they most need to help their citizens following that earthquake. But, there are people in Pakistan who do know, and some of them have said they need heavy lift helicopters. If we are serious about helping that country, and I doubt that we are, we will send them as many large helicopters as we can, with the necessary support equipment and personnel. Helicopters require many, many man hours of maintenance to keep them flying safely, plus a lot of spare parts. So, watch and see just how serious our government is.

Anyone remember how much we suck at human intelligence? You know, getting people to say, "um, yeah, I know where  Osama is, he's hanging out at Omar's place up on Afghan Road."

You can't get human intel without contacts and you can't get contacts without trust, let alone being physically present in a culture. We're acting like a bunch of white cops who hold distain for an urban, black or hispanic neighborhood but who want the kids on the corner to trust them and tell them where the gang bangers are. We've got to get on a foot beat and meet some people in the neighborhood.

Reed's right. We should go in and we should build some trust, prop up law and order, and let the local leaders take credit for the good work we do. Read this synopsis of Imperial Grunts, Kaplan does a better job at describing this concept than I ever could.

Of course, that we don't have a spare division lying around is exactly the problem. So all of this is just a big idea. But do you understand that this is EXACTLY the kind of big idea that the donkey needs to lead our country into a place where we are more secure? We're the minority party, and we have to start acting with ideas. That's all we got. We're out of power.

Our responsibility is to say "this is how we ought to be engaged in the world, and engagement is our best chance for security." 

Besides the fact that the idea is sick and inhumane, I think you underestimate the intelligence of the Pakistani government. Pakistan has been playing and winning this game for years. For years, we have known that Pakistan is the breeding ground for Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. We know that they are spreading nuclear technology to countries within and outside the Islam world. Yet, we continue to call them our "ally" in the war on terrorism. We gave them the F-16 they wanted. Forget about reprimanding them, they have us wrapped around their finger. So if you are thinking of "fooling" them into accepting military presence in their time of need - Best of Luck!

Just as a side note, you don't build goodwill by taking advantage of the misfortunes of others. Goodwill is generated via compassion not coercion.

spikey, I find your comment on the other thread so much more effective than this one, where you attack the argument and not the person. Here, throwing in unrelated prejudices about certain occupations and name calling makes me think twice about whether I should have taken your opinion so seriously. Here, you sound not so very different from those types who calls some kind of people 'towelheads.'

I understand. I think your viewpoint is very important here, I think it's important that Mr. Hundt and some commenters on this thread realize how imperial of an air some of their writing might look to foreigners. And I think they need to know that; it's real important. It's one of the finest things international internet reactions can teach.

 That's why I replied to your comment the way I did as well as rating it. If you can raise the level of the rhetoric on both sides, you might be able to accomplish something. Someone's got to start.

And I understand the emotional response, really I do. I am a New Yorker.

My sorrows extended for your country. It's simply a horror.

I wish we had all of our military helicopters available for your use right now, every single one. And guess what? To me, that would be a selfish act in our own best interest; just that and nothing else, no gratitude required. Better than anything else we could do in any 'war on terror' right now.

p.p.s. Don't take it personally if you don't get responses to your comments from the authors here. That's common practice, most of them don't post comments on their own threads nor do they rate them.(I wish it wasn't the practice, but I really like the site otherwise, so I stay.) We commentors are all sort of the 'peanut gallery.' I betcha anything that most of them read every single comment, though; most writers crave feedback. ;-)

First I need to thank artappraiser for suggesting we read your commentary spikey.

spikey - thank you for writing. You bring the feeling and close observations to a discussion that at times gets pretty theoretical.  As artappraiser said we would appreciate your continuing comments on this and other subjects.

I expect that I am one of those whose comments prompted you to write. I thought the US by offering help could both provide needed help and also get some benefit.  I do not think it should be viewed as a trade by the US or Pakistan.  I do, however, see it as an action that would be mutually benficial.
 
Most importantly, at least in my view, by providing people on the ground in the disaster area and relief areas US personnel could learn about another culture.  Most people in the US are lacking in any real understanding of other countries and other cultures.  One of the latest examples is US actions in Iraq. The US actions were started by people who had no clue about the region or culture. The military sent to Iraq had only a very few who had understanding and ability to speak in any languate but English. 

In some of my early comments I agreed with offering military troops. Others here told me that sending military was insensitive and would be considered terrible by Pakistanis.  I modified my position to offering personnel who have specialities of help like medical, engineers, etc.

Last, I echo what artappraiser said, discussions often slow down and stop as people move onto other topics.  I can tell you how I operate, I try to go back to topics where I commented to see where the discussion is, to reply to people who replied to my comments and to add any new ideas I might have. I rate some where they really catch my attention. I focus almost exclusively with positive ratings. On a rare occasion I will give a negative rating where a comment is way out of line.  I do go back and check how my comments are rated.  That feedback helps me to know if I was understood and also how to write future comments in ways that better say what I intend and also ways to better contribute to the discussion.  As I watch and learn  I believe I have gotten better as a participant. I will keep trying to get better so that my part of the conversation improves.

Sorry for the long answer but you raised several important issues.  You deserved a better response from the folks here.

spikey - another time where I did not do a good job explaining my thoughts.
  
US actions in Iraq are a disaster. Going there in the beginning with military was wrong. The actions since March 03 have continued what was terrible at the start. Not only are the big policy and government decisions and actions terrible, the people we sent to Iraq did not understand the country, the culture nor the religion. Even worse the people we sent did not even know that they did not understand.

I like the student idea for longer term understanding and relationships. I think the reason the idea of military even started is that the US government can send these people immediately to help.  The best way to improve relations is for the countries to agree on what help (beyond some helicopters) can be given in the short term and what can be done in the longer term to increase understanding - both ways.

Mr. Hundt,

Your idea sounds like the kind of armchair quarterbacking that has gotten the US into the mess it's in right now.  It also bespeaks the kind of arrogance that has become commonplace in the US, to speak so lightly about the proposition of sending troops into a sovereign nation and conducting intelligence operations there.  You seem to approach the topic with the gravity that one expects when ordering pizza.