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Sympathy with the Evangelical Right

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It seems to me that of all the different factions that support the Administration, the most sincere, consistent, and principled is the evangelical right. They have every reason to be upset about the nomination of Ms. Miers, because the selection reveals the truth about the Administration -- General Rove and the others in charge do not want Roe v Wade to be overturned. They do not respect the principle behind the decision; they do not respect its reasoning; they do not want it to be applied broadly. But they are quite sure that if their Supreme Court overturned the decision then in the next election Democrats would probably win.  The evangelical right would prefer to overturn Roe and take their chances at the ballot box. General Rove would prefer to pretend to want to overturn Roe, but to permit his candidates to fuzz up, or dissemble, on the topic during the election cycles. The evangelicals are principled; the White House's principle is expedience. The Miers nomination is a revelation to the evangelicals. For those who see the same behavior on the budget, funding NCLB, running the Iraq war, harming the environment, and many other topics, the failure to appoint a truly distinguished person to the High Court is just another in a litany of disappointments.


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The chief evengelicals:  Dobson, Robertson, Lamb are supporting her.  The intellectuals like Will, Buchanan, and the National Review who oppose her.

less eloquent, less articulate, but perhaps as pointed thanks to that, i think the movement conservatives are not going to sit still for a "closeted" evangelical nominee... no hedging... they're looking for flat-out, full-tilt boogie, in-your-face, fundamentalist, evangelical, far-right, no bullshit, conservative christianity... no one else need apply and if bush can't produce, they're gonna hit him with 25+ years of stored up frustration...

 http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2005/10/bushs-base-we- dont-want-closeted.html

General Rove would prefer to pretend to want to overturn Roe, but to permit his candidates to fuzz up, or dissemble, on the topic during the election cycles.


I tend to agree with you, Reed. I have long wondered why the newspeople don't make more vigorous attempts to pin down the president's views on overturning Roe.  One tried the other day and Scottie evaded the question by saying that Bush has no litmus tests for a nominee.  When the newsperson insisted that the question had nothing to do with the nominee but with the president's own view, Scottie kept calling it a litmus test and refused to answer.  They want to keep the president's views on this issue fuzzy.


The exchange is here in the White House press briefing from  Oct. 5, 2005.

It seems to me that of all the different factions that support the Administration, the most sincere, consistent, and principled is the evangelical right.




This might be true if your only measure of consistent and principled were commitment to social goals like eliminating reproductive freedom rather than commitment to political principles that may at times conflict with those social goals.




Take their jihad against gays. It seems that no principle is higher than marginalizing, delegitimizing and persecuting gays. Support for the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would enshrine discriminatory language in the constitution, is fine. But defend the Senate's tradition of unlimited debate and all of a sudden they're perfectly willing to put on the victim's cloak and call it a war on people of faith.




They're also remarkably inconsistent about which of Jesus's teachings to emphasize in their political decisions. Jesus said virtually nothing about homosexuality but a whole lot about charity towards the poor. Notwithstanding their often generous private contributions to charity, they are usually against expanding government programs for the poor.




I'll grant them sincerity. They are certainly not approaching politics with the level of cynicism and insincerity of Republicans in general. But consistent and principled is a stretch.

The evangelical right learned a hard political lesson.  They were never important, except as a means to the ends of Rove and Bush.
I wonder what would happen if the evangelicals responded with a frontal assault on Bush and the Administration. Serious power politics - if you won't respect us and our right-to-life principles, we are taking a public walk.
Brad - you don't have to agree with their principles to call them principles.You don't have to like the consistency of their adherence to those principles over time but that's what it has been.
Where I agree with you is that they choose to apply certain principles to get the ends they want.  That is where I challenge their integrity.  My biggest beef is the right-to-life focus on the unborn and those in death's doorway vs. the lack of concern for the poor, young and old.

It's not as if the Bush administration's now obvious disinterest in overturning Roe is unusual or surprising. To the contrary, Bush has consistently refused to expend any political capital on any of the major priorities of the evangelical right. His support of the DOMA was remarkably tepid; his faith-based initiatives seem to have been essentially for-show. Nor has Bush particularly gone to bat for Christians who face political opression abroad. It's clear that when it comes to the Republican coalition, Bush is willing to go to the mat for the anti-tax faction, take big risks for the neocons, hand out corporate pork like there's no tomorrow. But when it comes to evangelicals, he's happy to feint their way to get votes and then leave them cold when it's time to actually make policy.
What Democrats need to do now is make this clear. Democratic/progressive pundits need to hammer the fact that the GOP has played social conservatives for chumps, taken their votes and ignored their agenda. Social conservatives should be made to feel stupid and naive for supporting Bush in the first place. This will either cause evangelicals to stay home on election day in 2006 and 2008 or force the GOP to tack significantly rightwards, to counteract social conservative disillusion. Either scenario could result in an electoral trainwreck for the GOP. 

If only...

The possibilities are:  1) the born-again Miers, personal lawyer to born-again George, who has received the thumbs-up from James Dobson is a stealth moderate, or 2) she is the social conservative's wet dream with no public record that liberals and moderates can attack.  Let's see.  I'll take my chances with the latter possibility.

She's taking a beating from conservatives of all stripes.  While the media has fixated on the heat coming from social conservatives, much of the disappointment, as well as the most brutal attacks, has come from the "intellectual" end of the party.  Much of it can be summed up in a kindler-and-gentler way by listening to the way Arlen Specter talks about her, essentially telling us that she needs a crash course in constitutional law.  Think about it.  Is there any reason imaginable that we should be appointing someone to the Supreme Court that needs to be tutored in constitutional law?  That's the fact that is (correctly) pissing off people like Krauthammer, Buchanan and Will.

The only way this nomination makes sense is if she's a for-real social conservative. 

Although I agree with your premise, I disagree with your conclusion regarding the evangelicals.  I've read a few winger sites to gauge their reaction to Miers, and while there is some bitterness, the general sentiment seems to be "Give her a chance."  I think people are overestimating the degree of resistance to her, based in part on wishful thinking.  As soon as Dobson signed off on her, a large bloc of people were inclined to take a wait and listen approach.  


Basically, I don't see Miers as the catalyst for the kind of split that fractures the left, where many activists are essentially at war with their own party.  The Republicans, evangelicals included, have power to protect, and too much fighting among themselves will risk squandering that power.  I think her nomination was a blunder on Bush's part, but not nearly as big a one as people are making it out to be.  She'll be forgotten a few months after her confirmation (which I think is a good bet to happen), and as soon as the wingers can gin up another Terri Schiavo or some such to focus their energy on.  And of course, the 2006 elections are coming, which is another distraction.      

I think you are correct and instead of patting themselves on the back Dems ought to be observing how they've become irrelevent to the debate.  The only debate is intellectual far right vs. religious far right.  The Dems aren't even in the conversation so worthless is "centrism" as a replacement for leadership or ideology.  How do you get in the center between Buchanan and Dobson?

I have a hard time considering evangelicals principled OR sincere.  I guess it is the glee that they express when they fantasize about the "Rapture," where they all float up to heaven and leave the rest of us (muslims, hindus, buddhists, catholics, and all the others who have only been born once) behind to burn in eternal hellfire.

I guess it is the posters of aborted fetuses that they (and their young children) proudly march with to stop abortion -- in contrast to their heartless attitude towards those unmarried mothers (and their babies once born).

It is the vindictiveness they express towards their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

It is their utter contempt for the common good, which they call "socialism."

It is their two-faced judgements against "non-believers'" principles all the while faithfully following and sending their checks into the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell -- both multimillionaires who do the minimum for those in need. 

Sorry, I can't buy your thesis.  Evangelicals all seem to have one thing in common:  they are desperately afraid of what will happen after they die, and they are happy and thrilled by the weekly sermon that promises that only THEY will be rewarded after death.  The environment doesn't matter.  Why?  It's only Earth, and only the non-believers will be stuck with it.

If they are worried and feel betrayed by Bush it is only because their view is so narrow that only guarantees make them feel secure.  His lies, his incompetence, his wars, his appointments were all just fine until this Miers woman came up.  If this is their only complaint about him, can you REALLY consider them principled or sincere?

Jan Knaus

I agree that the Bush administrations relation with the evangelical right is basically exploitive. An example would be homosexual marriage. In the run up to the 2004 election, Bush purposely created the impression he was  100% with the evangelical right on this issue, and they returned the favor by working like crazy to get him re-elected. Then just a week before the election Bush said he thought civil union would be ok. Talk about a stab in the back.

Bush's problem is that he needs the evangelical right to win elections, but their agenda, and to a considerable extent the agenda of the conservative movement as a whole, is opposed by the majority of the public. So he plays back and forth, like selling himself as a "compassionate conservative" ie more moderate than he really is, and hopes he and the rest of the concervative politicians can sneak their agenda past the public.  

 

C'Ville - well, I feel torched.  Let me take my shot to respond. I believe we agree more than we disagree...We should both acknowledge that we are teating people as homogeneous when in fact there are variations.  But for the purpose of discussion I will lump...I will stick with acknowledging evangelicals have principles and have been consistent to those they hold over time. But saying they have them does not mean I agree.  I do not.  I also find that the way they apply them is hypocritical - my example of value of life for the unborn and those at death's door,  but an anti-life disregard for the poor in between.  To me hypocrisy is not sincerity, so I disagee when you say that I called them sincere...This discussion has caused me to admit that in the past I have just assumed that principles are always what I would call good.  I now find that I cannot defend that position... I do not write with the passion you do - the Irish Catholic in me restrains me.  But we are in agreement about how they: exclude non-believers; fight abortion in shameful to illegal ways; violate anything remotely humanitarian in treatment of gays, unmarrieds, etc.; practice community generousity that discriminates;...  ..Having spent a few years in the HQ town of the Falwell empire I saw up close what was in front of the curtain, and all sorts of things going on out of view that were a lot less holy...Last I chuckle that they now realize that instead of Bush owing them for his rise to power, in fact he used them to get to where he wanted to go.  Miers is what he wanted and does not much care about them. They were lousy horse-traders, Bush got what he wanted and they lost the guaranteed anti Roe vote.

Just a reminder that they felt this way about Reagan.  Reagan paid lipservice to Evangelical goals, at least their over ones, but did not follow through.  Bush who is an Evangelical seemed to be ready to deliver on the promises.    This must be a very bitter bill.

The loudest voices against Miers is not the Evangelicals but the likes of George Will, Charles Krautheimer and even Pat Buchannan.  What the Miers nomination may show are the fractures within Republicanism and within the Right.  The Repubicans are held together through devotion to Reagan and tax cuts, retaining power and as we have seen with Delay, money.

Irish - I am truly down the road from them.  Falwell in Lynchburg and I am in Charlottesville.  My daughter is a student at Sweet Briar College (or, as Jerry says, she is a "whore on the hill").  Robertson is just down I-64 in Virginia Beach. 

I was brought up in a Baptist  church in Richmond, Va that sponsored African missionaries.  When I was 12 years old, one of the Africans who had been ordained by one of our missionaries came to speak to our church.  There was a church meeting to decide if he could ACTUALLY COME INTO OUR CHURCH!  (This was the 50's)  As a twelve-year-old I raised my hand and said that I had just realized that I had just recently been baptised into a "low church."  -- I didn't have the flair for the language that I have now, [she said humbly].  Ultimately, the "owers that be" decided he could come in and talk about his conversion, and about the people in his village in Africa and their experiences, but only if he wore African clothes so no one in the neighborhood would think we let Negroes come into our church except as janitors.

OK.  So now you know my baggage.  What is weird is that I have one sister who is a missionary in Africa, a brother who is twice-born, and another sister who is as non-religious as I am.  I am only close to the latter.  She is the only one I can have a respectful conversation with.

So please, don't feel torched.  Some of my feelings are baggage, but I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out how to do the right thing, and to be honorable.  I have not found it in religion, and I must say, I really tried to.  Why?  Because just doing what you are told with the promises (that no human has the right to make) is so much easier.  In fact, it is a no-brainer.

Jan Knaus

I think you're underestimating the power of the unity of the VRWC.  Without the Krauthammers and Wills developing the lines of argument, the interemediaries like Rush have no source for their content. Without clear talking points from both the administration, the congress and the punditocracy, the evangelicals are going to lose their coherence.

The metaphor Peter Daou has used is a triangle. The intellectuals are an important part of the triangle.  A mixed message undermines the entire enterprise.

BTW, I do think this is moot. I think Specter saying that he'd be willing to call Dobson and Rove as witnesses was a clear signal to the president that this one is not going through easily.  Somebody else, somewhere I can't remember pointed out that there is very little to be said in defense of this nomination.  You can't point to anything that makes her a person who'd want to pick.  Saying that picking a Supreme Court justice is the president's prerogative may work for a cabinet appointment, but it just doesn't fly when picking a Supreme Court justice.

What Senator will stand up and advocate confirmation for this nominee? What will he or she say?

The only thing that speaks for her is her realtionship to Bush and perhaps that she is female in the same way that Clarence Thomas was Black.  

Ed Kilgore has likened this business to a balloon payment on a mortgage. For two generations now, the Republicans have used one excuse after another for their inability to deliver on the evangelical agenda.  The last excuse--the Supreme Court--was supposed to be erased by Bush.

This looks like the Republicans are sending in the keys.

In my view, they've taken an unpopular set of policies as far as they can, hiding them under names like "The Healthy Forest Initiatiave". They've campaigned using code language on abortion to avoid having the majority vote them out on that issue.  They've talked up social issues, but been careful not to actually do anything about it. They invariably choose symbolic measures that cannot be implemented, or do not affect Americans. That this has failed to reduce the number of abortions here, and has caused unnecessary deaths overseas hasn't mattered, as long as they could point to those symbols.

They're out of excuses.  They can't wink on this nomination. They can't say "trust us."  And if they do manage to make it publicly clear that their nominee will do all she can to reverse Roe, they'll have to go public with a view that, in fact, they don't support and don't want to implement. 

There was at least Thomas's life story.  What are the Senators going to talk about? What are they going to say about this woman's  achievements and qualifications?  They  pale beside  O'Connor's.  Thomas's did next to Marshall's, but there was an ideological difference there. A Republican can't really talk up Miers' gender or her achievements as a woman with O'Connor there in the background.

Can you see Hatch taking up the cause?  Allen? Lott and Coburn are already out.  Who will defend this record? 

Life story?  Life Story!!!! Give me a break!  If that is the criterion for Supreme Court Justice every kid whose parents were addicted to crack cocaine and abused them on a daily basis would be a a candidate! 

Every single person has a story.  So does she.  So does Bush (Lord knows he was raised by a narcisistic mother, and had drug and alcohol dependence).  Does that make them qualified to be anything other than a great Oprah show personality?

Thomas got his appointment because he is a white conservative black guy.  Refute that!  Bush 41 had the audacity to say he was the "most qualified person in the United States for  this appointment."  ABSOLUTELY NO ONE BELIEVED THAT, INCLUDING THE MAN WHO SAID IT.

fortunately i still have a sense of humor, and even in all this mess i have a mental image of this hole (sic) administration slipping on a banana peel and going to rule the banana republic that they so richly deserve.  

Jan Knaus

Reed,

Thanks for the reminder about compassion, and the distinction you make between the true believers and those who have exploited them so effectively.  I disagree with much of what the evangelical right wing stands for, and for how they have so often gone about their business with such disrespect and judgement of others.  Still, I respect the fact that they believe what they believe - and that stands in stark contrast to the Bush Administration, which appears to believe in nothing but power and profit.  My choice would be for none of them to be in power, but the evangelicals do have my compassion, for what it's worth.  

The only way this nomination makes sense is if she's a for-real social conservative.

Or if she's a true loyalist.  This president values loyality to himself as the most highly valued trait of all.  Better still if she has no actually philosophy or ideology but will vote (like Scalia seemed willing to do in 2000) to protect the man and the party regarless of law or morality.

Mr Hundt, I find your comment that the evangelical right is principled quite interesting. (You say:  "The evangelicals are principled; the White House's principle is expedience.") Actually many conservatives (not justevangelicals) have expressed opposition to the Miers nomination. My question is just how principled is the Democratic opposition. We have seen that Roberts was not the right candidate to oppose energetically. When the "perfect" nomination to oppose is put forth, I am sure that our Democratic legions will rise up in righteousness (after checking the political winds) and announce opposition. For our Democratic leaders do not worry about political expedience as we all know so well. 

There is a fair amount of mean-spiritedness among "evangelicals", but I think it's important to be cautious about generalizing about evangelicals.  Gary Dorrien, a social-gospellist Anglican has written a good book, "The Remaking of Evangelical theology" that shows just what a diverse group of people evangelicals are, even in the US. 

If you want to understand them better, I can recommend it and Mark Noll's "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" or "America's God".

dlw
I think also at fault here is the generally shallow habits of political deliberation among many in the Evangelical Right.  This stem in part from how they reflect a particular strand of Christianity, Neo-Pietism that in reaction to the rise of the Enlightenment tended to emphasize the personal and sacred and shy away from structural/secular matters. 

As such, they vote based on issues they've become convinced are "a-political" and of great import for "moral values".  And they are more easily taken advantage of by their leaders as Reed points out. 

I think the answer is to foster changes in theology, and changes in habits of political deliberation.  This sort of deliberation must be seen as among the disciplines associated with being a Christian and an integral way in which we love our neighbors.

And that's why I write what I write at my blog, <a href="http://wetzell.blogspot.com/2005/09/what-does-it-mean- to-be-anti.html">the Anti-Manicheist</a>.

dlw
CVille - now I get to admit to denseness. Each time I saw your name I thought of CVille as Centerville MA (Cape Cod).  Even though living in Lynchburg I drove through Charlottesville hundreds of times that never occurred to me. I must admit my time in the South (being from New England) was one continual learning experience. The time is summed up in what I was called repeatedly, "damnYankee," followed up with the explanation that it was one word and it wasn't good!
I appreciate your willingness to give me some perspective with your insights and past.  Launching into a fight is an intellectual challenge, but responding to your passion requires me to really stretch. Thanks for giving me a second shot.
I like the idea of honor and respect striving to be honorable.   I even wrote a blog piece about honor a while back.  It seems to me that it is even more important to remember to hold honor as a standard for actions and words.  ..On question of cosmic import and completely off topic, why do female UVa students wear pearls and skirts to football games? 

So people like Gary Bauer are considered intellectuals now, eh? He's ranting that it's a 'stealth' nominiation.


CNN's Sunday talking head round-up: Conservatives spar over Miers nomination.

Wow, I find your comment incredibly ill-informed and intolerant in the classical manner of reading a couple articles on a group (like um, blacks) and believing it all and hating them for it.  What you are talking about is a small radical faction of the huge Christian evangelical movement. (Do you realize you're lumping in someone like Jimmy Carter and his family here?) I'm sorry if I sound nasty, but you have really angered me; you need to do some homework and learn about "the other."
Here's some photos of some of those evil evangelicals for you.<img src="http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/25/national/blacks.390.jpg" border="0">Kevork Djansezian/Associated Press
Daron Patterson, right, and Verlinzia Maiden listening to pleas to vote at Mount Airy Church of God in Christ in Philadelphia. from:
NYT 10/25
Gore and Kerry Unite in Search for Black Votes
By JIM DWYER and JODI WILGOREN
As polls suggest gains for President Bush among black voters, Democrats are trying to solidify their bloc.

Oops-photo cited above showed in preview but didn't post, so


HERE THE'S PHOTO, MAKE IT #1 of nasty evangelicals above caption and article citation.


PHOTO #2 of nasty evangelicals.

Caption: Hiroko Masuike for The New York Times

Jeanmarie Salazar, right, belongs to Iglesia Evangelica Pentecostal, a Bronx church. She said she voted for President Bush, though she was troubled by his economic policies.

from

The Political Conversion of New York's Evangelicals By Andrea Elliot November 14, 2004


PHOTO #3 of nasty evangelicals

Caption: Members of the Lakewood Church, the nation's largest, Saturday night at the first service in their new home.


from

A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 at a Time

John Leland in Houston, July 18, 2005.

To his flock, Mr. Osteen is to varying degrees spiritual leader, motivational speaker and celebrity.....Mr. Osteen's rise is an indicator of the growth and upward mobility of the charismatic branch of evangelical Christianity, and a rebound for television ministry after the sexual and financial scandals of the 1980's, said Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College. Mr. Osteen avoids contentious issues like abortion and homosexuality,...

"The evangelicals are principled"

This is preposterous.  For the last 10 months, I have heard Land and Parshall lie their butts off in support of Bush. Perhaps you meant "pro-blastocyte" instead of "principled."

The environment doesn't matter.  Why?  It's only Earth, and only the non-believers will be stuck with it.


A ridiculous, incredibly prejudiced generalization.


Published on 8 Feb 2005 by Washington Post.

The Greening of Evangelicals

by Blaine Harden

on this issue, the Dems are doomed again. Seems like Thomas Franks visit here was all for naught; some just wanna be culture warriors to the death...some of the cluelessness on this thread is astounding to me, especially after the last election...you cannot get what's going on in evangelism by reading a few scare stories put out on liberal blogs on the most radical of them. (And Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are old style! Billy Graham, now that's another story. Why do you think all the recent presidents call on him in their 'time of need," huh? What do you think he is? He's an evangelical!)


All that does is feed the culture wars like the right wing think tank maestros want you to do. That's what they want: us vs. them. And by pushing the generalizations, you just perpetuate the divide. You have to realized that in some polls in the past around 40% of Americans have identified themselves as born again or evangelical. And worldwide, it's growing. You can't even have a decent Dem foreign policy if you are not going to understand the appeal of evangelical christianity in all its forms. You keep hating based on generalizations, you'll simply marginalize yourself. There's a divide right now, the topic of this thread, and instead of taking advantage of it, you say "a pox on all your houses." I can see the Dems losing a big patch of Hispanics in 2008 if they took up your anti-evangelical rant.


PBS.Org-April, 2004

Poll: America's Evangelicals More and More Mainstream But Insecure

Diversity, Differences Mark Their Views on Society, Culture, Politics


....There are important differences among black, white and Hispanic evangelicals on political and moral questions....


Sept. 4, 2004 op-ed:

A Hidden Swing Vote: Evangelicals


by Michael Hout & Andrew M. Greeley

The idea that white evangelical voters are unshakably in the Bush camp is not born out by data:


....one-fifth of white Americans who belong to "fundamentalist" churches (like Southern Baptist, Assembly of God, Holiness, Pentecostal and Missouri Synod Lutheran) are remarkably pluralistic in their political and social attitudes. While it is true that white evangelicals tend to be more conservative socially, as well as religiously, than the average American, there is little correlation between religious conservatism and political conservatism. For example, in the social surveys, about 40 percent of Americans who believe in the literal, word-for-word interpretation of the Bible describe themselves as "politically conservative."


In the last two presidential elections, about 62 percent of white evangelicals voted Republican - or about 7.5 percent more than among other American Protestants. A majority, clearly, but nowhere near unanimity. And in terms of the electorate as a whole, it's hardly fair to say evangelicals are a dominant political force. If we measure their overall political influence as that 7.5 percent differential multiplied by their share of the electorate - they make up about 21 percent of voters- it comes to about 1.6 percentage points. Yes, as the 2000 election showed, even an edge that small can be decisive in a close race. But it hardly amounts to an overwhelming base. Moreover, those 1.6 percentage points are spread across all regions, not concentrated in the South, where the evangelicals supposedly contribute to the Republicans' red state advantage.


Clearly, claims that evangelicals have hijacked the nation's politics are greatly exaggerated. In fact, polling data show that President Bush's real base is not religious but economic, the group he jokingly referred to as "the haves and the have mores."


The General Social Survey found that 20 percent of American voters have family incomes of more than $75,000 a year, while twice that many earn $30,000 or less. The high-income group (about the same size as the evangelicals) votes Republican by an 18-point margin, while the low-income group favors Democrats by 24 percentage points. If the Republicans were to lose their 18-point advantage among the affluent, it would cost them about four percentage points nationwide in the election, more than twice the cost if they were to lose their edge among evangelicals.


And neither region nor religion can override the class divide:....


True Believers; More Religion, but Not the Old-Time Kind  

by Laurie Goodstein January 9, 2005


....The world's fastest growing religion is not any type of fundamentalism, but the Pentecostal wing of Christianity. While Christian fundamentalists are focused on doctrine and the inerrancy of Scripture, , what is most important for Pentecostals is what they call "spirit-filled" worship, including speaking in tongues and miracle healing.....


Chart: The Growth of Religions

Irish - The whole UVA "thang" is hard to fathom.  At my ripe old age of 57 I applied to get into the Curry School of Education (Mental Health Counselor) program last year.  I worked for 10 years in emergency rooms as a nurse, and 12 years as a nurse practitioner, and have been at home raising my children for 15 years, so I thought I had a good perspective.  Got 99th%ile on the verbal GRE, 75th%ile in math.  I didn't get accepted.  I have a very "unconventional" bachelor's degree, and I am just not the "UVA type," I guess.

That said, I know plenty of really great UVA students.  Nice people, but if you want to know why they dress like that it comes down to conformity.  There is a "look" and pearls and skirts are it right now.  Go figure!!!

I never hear people use the word Yankee any more.  When I lived in Georgia I did.  I'll bet that if people called you that they were smiling.  The only negative north-south thing I notice here is when someone with a strong New York or New Jersey accent complains about people driving too slow.

Sorry, I guess this is not in the thread.  Got carried away.

Jan K

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