An Epitaph for an Administration

Gideon Rose has a terrific review in today's Washington Post of George Packer's new book, The Assassin's Gate.  I'm only about a third of the way through the book, but everything I have read so far confirms Gideon's assessment.  What I liked most about the review was the concluding paragraph, which took me back to passage from a great American classic that I dimly recall from a high school English class.  For those who want to see it, go to the jump page. 

From Gideon Rose, "Welcome to the Occupation," Washington Post, October 9, 2005:  

"....It is not too soon, however, to return a judgment on those at the helm [of the Bush Administration] who took a difficult job and made it infinitely more so, dramatically undermining America's regional and global position in the process. They were 'careless people,' as Fitzgerald said of Tom and Daisy Buchanan, who 'smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.' That, if nothing else, can stand as a lesson for future tender souls contemplating the possible benefits of liberal imperialism and mulling attempts to do the right thing with the wrong partners."

[Full Disclosure:  For the purists among the America Abroad readership, Gideon and I both work for the Council on Foreign Relations, though, in very different parts of the organization.]


Comments (35)

This is just sickening, but the sad thing is that those who need to learn from this will never heed its message.  When I think of all the good people whose lives and futures have been wasted and spent in this misadventure it is unconsciable that after all the books written; after all we know; that old men still throw the lives of 20 year-olds as cannon-fodder toward their quest for power and money...   Thank you for posting this.  There really is nothing else to say.

Jan Knaus

Heh, I almost feel badly that Christopher Hitchens has given this book a good review ... could be the kiss of death in some circles. I shall, nonetheless, add it to my book list.


Currently, I'm reading Understanding Terror Networks, which is a bit of a slog. I could use a spot of good writing.


Thanks.


mp

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From the review:


"...but the case for democratization played an important role in buttressing the other two arguments and was the most exciting aspect of the endeavor for neoconservatives and liberals alike."


How can the prospect of spreading democracy via the barrel of a gun be exciting to liberals?  It strikes me, and always has, as political holy war, and I suspect that's the way the people in the Middle East see it.  Not only does it violate liberal principles; it was simply a foolish idea.  We've already seen democracy in the Middle East, and it's called Iran.  Now we're seeing it again, and it's like combining the worst of Iran (theocratic government) and Lebanon circa 1980 (civil war).  And all this was foreseen by a whole lot of people.  You have to have been wearing a powerful prescription of rose colored glasses indeed to have believed you can impose democracy on a polyglot state in a region that has never seen democracy, that has no democratic tradition at all, in fact.


While I appreciate the reviewer's chastened tone, both he and the author of the book seem to be primarily focused on the failures of the plan's implementation, rather than its inherent unworkability and immorality from the start.  


Another one from Gatsby:


"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."


       

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I'm gonna continue to object to this formulation whenever I see it (from the link):

The first was essentially an honest mistake; almost all knowledgeable observers thought Iraq was hiding prohibited weapons programs, although they disagreed about how to handle the problem and the fears proved overblown.

While this characterization was true at the time of the Senate vote on giving Bush authority to wage the war, it was absolutely clear, before the invasion, in March 2003 that it was inaccurate.

According to the UN reports by alBaraedi and Blix  there was no threat from any prohibited weapons program,  there was no nuclear program,  there were no weapons where the US had  said there were and it was entirely possible that there were no weapons or programs whatosoever.

To claim that the invasion took place during a point in time when there was a consensus that Iraq was hiding prohibited weapons program is entirely wrong. 


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According to the UN reports by alBaraedi and Blix there was no threat from any prohibited weapons program, there was no nuclear program, there were no weapons where the US had said there were and it was entirely possible that there were no weapons or programs whatosoever.




While this is true in a narrow sense, it misses the larger point, which is that Blix and ElBaradei had limited credibility at that point. They had missed many previous signs of Iraq's weapons. They were transparently anti-war. Furthermore, they could not possibly have known with any degree of assurance that there were no weapons at that point as they were relying totally on the voluntary disclosures of Saddam's government, which should have made their statements much more equivocal.




It turns out they were right that Iraq had no weapons, so you can argue that's all that matters. But if we're looking to make an honest assessment of what happened, you need to understand what was known at the time. Saddam had a known history of concealing weapons programs and was a known psychopath. There was every reason to think that hadn't changed.

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How can the prospect of spreading democracy via the barrel of a gun be exciting to liberals?


Luigi, the US spread democracy via the barrel of a gun to Italy, Japan and Germany. More recently, liberals were rightly enthusiastic about sending US troops to Bosnia to enforce a settlement of the civil war there and attempt to create a stable democratic government. Liberals supported the NATO war against Serbia over Serbian ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. When the Milosevic government fell in the aftermath of the Serbian defeat, we rightly felt that the war had been decisive in bringing genuine democracy to Serbia. Finally, liberals supported the US/Northern Alliance war against the Taliban government in Afghanistan, which has brought a tentative and struggling democratic government to that country.


Liberals who rightly opposed the Iraq war from the get-go did so because it lacked a. a legitimate casu belli, hence b. international support, c. any reasonable likelihood of success to outweight the lives that would be lost, and d. it was being run by idiots, so it was foreseeable that it would degenerate into madness and chaos. But it would be a tragedy if the criminal negligence that is the Iraq war were to dissuade liberals from supporting future military action in a genuine political and humanitarian emergency, such as the genocide in Darfur or defense of democracy in Taiwan. The notion that force of arms is never necessary or useful in the defense of stability and democracy against chaos and fascism is just as dangerous a fantasy as are the imperialist daydreams of the Bushite neocons who launched the Iraq war.

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Luigi, the US spread democracy via the barrel of a gun to Italy, Japan and Germany.


"Italy" (Rome) had a working democracy when people were still hunting buffalo and living in tee pees in the U.S.  Mussolini came to power via the democratic process, in fact.  Germany had been a democracy before WWII, and like Mussolini, Hitler came to power via the democratic process.  Japan had a highly developed social structure, was an island insulated from its neighbors, and had a nearly homogenous population, which made introducing democracy there easy.  None of these things is true of Iraq.  The closest comparison is Japan, and it's not very close at all.

 

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The frequent assertions before the war, and still today, that Saddam was a "psycopath" are very misleading and unhelpful rhetorical flourishes without precise meaning.  If intended only to convey that Saddam was a ruthless killer, then they are accurate.  But they often seem to carry the suggestion that Saddam was an impulsive and unpredicatable madman, who was capable of anything, no matter how foolish and self-destructive. And that is not born out by the evidence

Saddam was indeed ruthless, and took Stalin as his model, but he was also a cold, calculating political survivor.  His behavior was "rational" in the sense that his actions represented plausible assessments of means, in light of his own selfish ends.  He had certainly miscalculated in the past, but had never done things that were completely nutty and inexplicable.  He had never attacked the United States.  At the time of the invasion, he seems to have been following a complex strategy of persuading his neighbors that he was not so weak that they should consider attacking him; while at the same time trying to convince the United States that he was not so strong that need fear him.  He was not implicated in terrorism against the United States, and the Salafist jihadists so active in other parts of the Arab world were not much welcome in Baathist Iraq.

His regime in 2002 and early 2003 was a wreck of its former self.  He was boxed in on two sides by no-fly zones, and had lost much political control over the north and south.  His army was a wreck; his economy in shambles.  All indications were that he was simply engaged in a desperate struggle to hold onto his regime and his personal power.  He was a has-been.

Our own CIA had concluded that there was little threat to the United States from his regime.  While they thought he had some small remaining cache of WMDs hidden away somewhere, they thought he was very unlikely to use them against the US unless attacked, and existed mainly to deter his neighbors.

So, the US invasion, which was both expensive and very risky in terms of its regional and geopolitical impact, was grossly disproportionate to the actual level of threat from Saddam's regime.  There must have been other strategic considerations involved.  I believe that Saddam's regime was put at the top of the hit list because of its weakness, not it's fearsome, threatening nature.  Iraq was attacked not because it was a threat, but because it was desperately weakened and centrally located, and the best target of opportunity for establishing a Middle East foothold for the US.

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Another rave review, in Salon, beautifully written and provocative, mho, was recommended by reader 'Hank Essay' here. It's worth going through the Salon 'day pass' ritual if you don't have time for the whole book, especially since it delves deeply into Packer's previous views and others like him. It's more like a New York Review of Books kind of review, 7 pages, with lots of interesting thoughts on Kanan Makiya and Paul Berman and their influence on Packer.


Salon link: The road to hell

In the definitive book about the Iraq war, liberal hawk George Packer tells the whole story of America's worst foreign-policy debacle -- and reveals how good intentions can go terribly wrong.

By Gary Kamiya

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I admire Dan K.'s analysis.  It makes sense and is consistent with my memory of how things looked then.

However, I have found that no explanation I have ever read or heard for the invasion of Iraq completely convinced me.  I have read so many well-written explanations, the fact that I am not fully satisfied with any of them intrigues me.

The invasion was not only stupid (from the standpoint of those executing it) but bizarrely stupid.  One reason none of the explanations I have heard fully convince me is because at some point or another, they assume rationality - either political or psychodynamic - without being able to proove it.

I suspect that the reasons for the invasion of Iraq will mystify and intrigue historians for a long while, particularly if it winds up becoming a turning point in history.  

I have assumed that there must be some complex mix of imperalist rationality (domination over the oil-rich Middle East) and ideological dynamics (neo-Cons making their mark on the world) and personal dynamics (Bush heard God tell him to do it or some Oedipal complex drove him to finish off what his father left undone).

Another possibility is that a full explanation of why the invasion occurred is not visible now because some aspect of the motivation is so widespread throughout American culture, even among opponents of the invasion, that we just can not see it.

 

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While this is true in a narrow sense, it misses the larger point, which is that Blix and ElBaradei had limited credibility at that point. They had missed many previous signs of Iraq's weapons. They were transparently anti-war.

First, Blix and ElBaradei were anti-war because they had found no weapons, not the other way round.  

More to the point, there were plenty of analysts in the US government who agreed with Blix and ElBaradei.  They had no credibility deficit, other than in the minds of the Neo-con-artists.  They ought to have been listened to, and would have been by any reasonably intelligent, fair-minded, properly cautious administration. 

Furthermore, they could not possibly have known with any degree of assurance that there were no weapons at that point as they were relying totally on the voluntary disclosures of Saddam's government, which should have made their statements much more equivocal.

This is simply false.  In the final round of in-country inspections, the inspectors were looking at sites identified by the US, with no resistance from Iraq.  The notion of entire weapons factories being whisked off, a step ahead of the inspectors, silently and  invisibly into the desert was, as so much was at that time, pure fantasy.

But, again, the problem is not disagreement over facts.  Where one cannot know there is cause for war with any degree of assurance, the wise and morally sound course is not to go to war.  Any talk of imminent threat, even on the Neo-con's assumptions about the state of Saddam's weapons programs, was never more than hyperbole.   Again, the wise course was not to go to war -- which plenty of senior officers in the US military recognized.

 None of the three rationales offered for the war had any merit.  Those who convinced themselves otherwise simply need to come to terms with the fact that they were egregiously wrong, at the cost of thousands of their countrymen's lives.

I wish I could muster more understanding and sympathy for those deeply embarrassed by history.  But the fact that Packer, Rose, and apparently, Brad the Dad continue to rationalize their utter failure of judgment is, frankly, sickening. 

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That's simply not true, and is a rewriting of history.

But let's start with what I said. I said that the reviewer's claim, that there was near unanimous belief that the Iraqis possessed weapons of mass destruction and were a threat, is clearly false as of  March  2003. At the very least, the UN inspectors did not share that belief.  Neither did France, Germany or other members of the Security Council. (You'll recall that the US withdrew its resolution to declare Iraq in violation.)  So the reviewer's statement, while true in May of 2002 (before Iraq allowed the inspectors back in) was false in March of 2003--before the war.

As to your remark on credibility, it's true that the US was doing all it could to undermine the UN on the topic of the threat from Iraq. It may have had some domestic success in that endeavor, but I'd argue the precipitate attack following the inspectors' report indicated that the administration felt it could not hold that line much longer in the face of the accumulated evidence.

Moreover, it could not credibly undermine the inspectors' work. The inspectors' work up to 1998 was the primary source of the intelligence information they were using to make their claims of the scope and contemporary location of Iraq weaponry. US intelligence had had nobody on the ground in Iraq in the mid-90s. See, for example, Kenneth Pollack's Atlantic Monthly deconstruction of how US intelligence could have gone so far wrong.

The oft-repeated claim that everyone thought that the Iraqis were harboring WMD was essentially true before the inspectors were readmitted. US estimates assumed that the known stocks in 1998 were a baseline, and that it was prudent to assume that more had been added. This assumption of additional weaponry was not based on any actual information from the ground; the US had no assets in place to gather such information, and with the inspectors gone, their primary source was gone. It was an assumption, conservative in overstating the risk--especially so because they had gotten it wrong in the other direction, dramatically understating the risk, earlier in the decade.

The UN inspectors, following their readmission, had already demonstrated, by March, that the baseline assumptions were wrong; the weapons weren't where they had been, could not be found and there was no evidence of any nuclear program whatsoever.  To claim that there was a consensus in the period immediately before the invasion is false. To implicitly extend the pre-inspection consensus in May 2002 to the post-inspection period in the following March is misleading at best.

 

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Now re two concrete comments:

They were transparently anti-war.

As an assertion that they opposed the war on principle, that's unsupportable. I don't doubt that they have the diplomat's bias against war, but that comes with the territory. In this case, Blix left open the possibility that they simply hadn't found weapons yet, and proposed an inspection regime to prove the apparent negative--that there were no such weapons.  Bush invaded instead.  This kind of claim is a smear rather than a claim that could be backed up by any evidence. In point of fact, nobody who was "transparently anti-war" could hold positions of that authority and responsibility. And, as was made eminently clear at the time, the threat of war is part of their brief whenever they are engaged in an inspection operation.  Look at Iran, right now, if you doubt that.

Furthermore, they could not possibly have known with any degree of assurance that there were no weapons at that point as they were relying totally on the voluntary disclosures of Saddam's government.

That's simply incorrect. They were on the ground making unannounced inspections whereever they wanted to, including all the places where the US said weapons were thought to be hidden.  They were not in the least relying on voluntary disclosures from the Iraqis.  They went to the places where the weapons were supposed to be, and didn't find any.

It's because of this kind of error (to my mind, conflating Administration rhetoric with what actually happened) that I will continue to object to the "There was a consensus formulation" whenever I see it.

 
 

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FWIW, this is what I think happened.

I think there was a consensus view that the invasion was worth it, with different motivations for different participants.

From DoD's perspective, they needed a reliable base for force projection in the region comparable to the Saudi bases. They doubted the long term viability of the political regime there and wanted bases in a secure, friendly location.

From State's perspective, a reliable counterweight to Iran has been sought ever since the fall of the Shah. Saddam had not proved to be particularly reliable in that regard.  Replacing his regime with one that was more clearly loyal to the US would solve that problem. Also,  while the sanctions plus air power regime may have been working in restricting the threat from Iraq, the sanctions were damaging the economy and the population, and were not indefinitely sustainable (hence "smart sanctions" as a pallative).

From the neo-cons' perspective this was about the flexing of American might--the concrete demonstration of something they'd been saying for a very long time.   The US had this force. It should use it.  And they were worried about Israel's security. Iraq had launched SCUDs, after all.

From Rove's perspective, wartime presidents win re-elections.  9/11 had saved an administration in a tailspin (remember that Rumsfeld was thought to be on his way out because he had lost his 'reengineering' battle with the Pentagon). A successful war in Iraq would cement victory.

Finally, the extraordinarily easy victory in Afghanistan--not only were the Taliban vanquished militarily at nearly no cost, but they were gone politically almost as fast--intoxicated everybody. 

This was taking place in the context of a movement called the  Revolution in Military Affairs. Maybe everything was different now..... 


In my opinion the whole world would be in a safer mode now if our leaders shared those characteristics:

They were transparently anti-war.

There was no reason to rush to war, and sadly, it took this debacle to establish Blix's and ElBaradei's reputations.   The fact is that their searches kept any potential threat contained in the mean time.  One of the missions of the much maligned UN is to prevent wars, at the very least they could have prevented this one had the inspectors not been kicked out by Bush so that the US could invade.  I believe his biggest fear was that the inspectors would conclusively prove that there were no WMD.

The fact is that Bush had the idea that he would secure his place in history by being a "war president."  The irony is that he has done so, but only in a very negative sense.

Regardless of what "everyone thought" there was no reason to pull our the experts who were searching for the weapons, and then preemptively invade to find those very same weapons.

Jan Knaus
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To me, the really troubling thing about analyses like these is the idea that this was a legitimate foreign policy exercise that was just mishandled.  To believe that you can institute a war and have any control whatsoever over the outcome, even if you win militarily, is nothing short of insane.  That is the fact that must be faced and accepted if there is to be any hope for America.

I have not seen anyone give the impression that you attempt to deal with in your sentence:

The notion that force of arms is never necessary or useful in the defense of stability and democracy against chaos and fascism is just as dangerous a fantasy as are the imperialist daydreams of the Bushite neocons who launched the Iraq war.

I think that the point many posters are making is simply that war should be a last resort.  Even George Bush said it.  Of course the difference is that he didn't mean it.

Geroge wanted war before he was even elected.  AFter 911 he pressured his staff to find a link to Saddam.  Finding none, he and Karl et al cooked up a noxious stew of crap and fed it to his base, and here we are.  This isn't Monday morning quarterbacking -- this whole mess should never have happened, and if he had kept our assets on BinLadin's trail he would have been dead or in jail long ago when it was still possible to chop off AlQaeda at the neck.  It may be too late now.   Certainly it is too late for all the senseless deaths and maimings of soldiers and civilians.

Jan Knaus


Jan Knaus
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There's a lot to respond to here, but I've only got time to make one point.




They were on the ground making unannounced inspections whereever they wanted to, including all the places where the US said weapons were thought to be hidden. They were not in the least relying on voluntary disclosures from the Iraqis. They went to the places where the weapons were supposed to be, and didn't find any.




This simply ignores two crucial facts:




1. Saddam's history of successfully hiding weapons programs (and thus, obviously, UNSCOM's inability to find them) in the past.




2. The nature of the inspections themselves. The inspections, even unannounced ones, were based on information provided either by the Iraqis themselves or, as you say, by US intelligence (mostly satellite surveillance, I believe). But these two sources could not possibly be definitive. The Iraqis were giving every indication of trying to play cat and mouse. And US intelligence had no human assets on the ground, only the talk of defectors and the evidence gathered through technical means.




I realize I'm arguing a difficult position, given what happened subsequent to the invasion. I also think that, all things being equal, the Administration was way too hasty in invading (although the military has limited ability to keep 150,000 troops invasion-ready indefinitely). But I want to point out that regardless of what the inspectors said in their report, there simply could not be assurance that Iraq was WMD-free.




Regardless of their position on the war itself, the intelligence community sincerely believed that Iraq had, at the very least, chemical and biological weapons stores hidden somewhere. Saddam had five years to figure out how to hide them. He had a long track record of pursuing their development. His was a manifestly evil regime. At the end of the day, the case for asserting Saddam had WMDs was almost entirely circumstantial. But it was not nothing.

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As for the "why" question, I'd make one tiny contribution: the fact that Saddam was a paper tiger is raised here as being one of the reasons why it was insane to go to war with him--he wasn't the threat he was being made out to be. But I suspect this is precisely why he was a target. The war party didn't want a hard battle after all, but an easy one. Saddam's actual weakness, despite what they were trying to convince the rest of the world of, inspired the neocon/PNAC idea in the first place. Knock him over and everything else would follow, like magic. Or dominoes. The ME would be pacified, Israel would be secure, we'd have a permanent base of operations to secure the flow of oil, and all by flicking our little finger to knock over a paper tiger. What's not to like?

 

not an objection to the war, from the pov of it's original proponents, but rather one of the key arguments

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Simply brilliant sequence of posts, Jay. 

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1. Saddam's history of successfully hiding weapons programs (and thus, obviously, UNSCOM's inability to find them) in the past.


What are you referring to here?  When did UNSCOM fail to find weapons during an inspection period?  I think you're mixing up US intelligence assessments (the ones that said Saddam had no nuke program  when he did in fact have a significant nuke program)  around the time of the first Gulf war with UNSCOM inspections.


I think if you look back you'll find that it was the work of UNSCOM that showed the original American under-assessment to be in error.


And you'll find that it was UNSCOM's work that made accurate intelligence assessments possible.


Here, for example, is a quote from Pollack


At the time [the late 1990s], obviously, we knew that losing the UN inspectors would be losing an important piece of the intelligence puzzle; but I don't think anyone realized just how big a piece that was. The UN inspectors had a tremendous capacity to watch what the Iraqis were doing. They were on the ground in Iraq; they had access to sights that neither U.S. intelligence nor any other intelligence service had; they were constantly speaking to Iraqis; they had a very large team that did nothing but try to check every jot and tittle of every document that the Iraqis presented. They had a tremendous collection capability and a tremendous analytic capability against Iraq. When the inspectors were pulled out, all that was lost.


There were also other important elements of what the UNSCOM inspectors did that were extremely important. For example, when a Western intelligence agency received a report—usually from a human source, but sometimes from a technical one—that suggested that there was WMD activity at a particular location, you could give that to the UNSCOM inspectors and they would go and check it out. They would come back and say, "Here's what we found. We found this, but we didn't find that." Or, "Yeah, something suspicious is maybe going on." Or sometimes, "it looked completely clean to us." If nothing else, this was a very good way of establishing on-the-ground truth about the different facilities. It was also an important source of reassurance, especially on the nuclear front. Since it's hard to keep a nuclear program secret, you could send the UNSCOM inspectors to certain places. They could bring their technical instruments and determine if there was radioactive material at the facility. UNSCOM activities were a very important check on things.


One of the reasons I'm so adamant about addressing this issue is that I think the actual history of what happened is being lost under the guise of "everybody thought so."  When they returned to the field, the inspectors clearly demonstrated that Saddam's teeth had been pulled. Beforehand, they had played the key role in identifying those teeth, and where they could be found.


I really  think, Brad, that you're making a mistake of recollection, a mistake that you've been encouraged to make, repeatedly, by  the administration.


At the end of the day, the case for asserting Saddam had WMDs was almost entirely circumstantial.


No, at the end of the day the circumstantial case that had been made had been almost entirely refuted. Al Baradei did not call for further inspections. He said there was no nuclear program.


Blix said they had found no weapons yet, that there may be no weapons, but they could not be said to have proved the negative.

 


The circumstantial case was made based on evidence on the ground that had been accumulated up to 1998. The case that the inspectors presented to the UN in March represented evidence on the ground that had been accumulated in the previous six months.


It was clear at that point that the only open question was whether there was some deeply hidden program. The more proximate concern--that Saddam had an active WMD program that posed a "grave danger"--had already been refuted. To the degree there was anything at all, the evidence on the ground showed that it was buried deeply somewhere.


To go back to my original post, it was certainly not  a view held by nearly all  knowledgeable people that Saddam posed a threat because of his WMD holdings at the time of the invasion.


At this point, we're not really discussing that claim. We're now discussing whether it was reasonable for a US policy-maker to hold to the belief in the threat from Saddam. I think you're wrong there, but that's a different (and interesting) discussion.

I think the main point--that the threat was not unanimously held to be real at the time of the invasion--is one on which we do not disagree.


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Andrew J. Bacevich in New American Militarismbrings together a number of the points for why the war in Iraq.  The Neo-cons seeing "Munichs" wherever they turned wanted the United States to demonstrate they would not appease latter day Hilters.  The Evangelicals,supporters of America's military to begin with see the United States as a nation specially constituted to do Gods work.  Finally you have the military gurus within the defense intellectual establishment who have been working on how to wage war in a nuclear age.  The advent of guided and more exacting weapons combined with the theory of an enemy's response to "Shock and Awe" made Iraq a perfect chance for an easy victory.

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When did war violate liberal principles?  As far as I understand it might have been a shock to Marxists when members of the working class elevated nationalism over class consciousness but I have never been aware that liberals were inherently opposed to war under all circumstances.  


"We will pay any price bear any burden" are not the words of George W. Bush or any conservative.

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Jay


Thank for your series of very interesting posts.


One addition I would make for the mid-1990 period is Saddem's sons-in-law.  There information exposed information about Saddems weapons programs after the first Gulf War.  Their revelations allowed the inspectors to destroy more weapons that was done by American military forces.


It was Saddem's ousting the inspectors toward the end of the Clinton Administration that led them to increase their efforts to get rid of Saddem.  As you indicate Clinton, Pollack and many around the Clinton Administration seem to share four characterizations in regard to Iraq.  Prior to the return of the inspectors they believed Saddem had chemical an biological weapons but not nuclear ones.  Once the inspectors returned they wished them to be given the time necessary to determine the true state of Saddems current weapons programs.


This addtional time would allow three things.  It would have given more time to achieve a more stable Afghanistan and put more pressure on Al Qaeda worldwide.  It would also have allowed the United States to work on a diplomatic arrangement in regard to Iraq.  Given that France, Russia and Germany wanted to lift the embargo against Iraq it would have been a good idea to discover what might have won over their support.  Lastly, with Afghanistan more settled, perhaps Turkey onboard despite their misgivings about the Kurds then the United States with great allies could have and should have ousted Saddem.


That is my understanding of the Democratic Party's foreign policy establishment.  Saddem was a very bad guy, not a psychopath, who eventually had to be removed but at a time of our choosing.

avatar The underlying reasons and justifications were false props.

It wasn't an honest mistake. It was an intentional lie.

The neocons have proven they want war for decades, as Condie Rice later admits. They never wanted a stable Iraq. They want a shit pen that needs constant foreign presence and  anyone saying otherwise can solve much of this by signing up and going over trhere.

If the army won't take your worthless bullshit, Halliburton will. Cost plus.

Onlu ONE Senate INTERL Dem voted for the war- John Edwards. He brought the vote to the floor. Remember that the next time you see Johnny Smile. James Baker was mighty close to him from a lawsuit litigation he won in their favor(swimming pool).

They're in a bigger pool of blood, Blackwater contractors thanks you for the war vote.

Honest Mistake is bullshit.

Inentional Lie from day one. Stop trying to be apologists for the "W.eimar Republicans".

There's no other way to put it. Calling you "liberal hawks" out is easy when it is clear that you lack the basic facilities of reason in your assumptions.

Torches and Pitchforks for you.
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When did war violate liberal principles?


War itself doesn't violate liberal principles; forcing people to adopt a political system via warfare does.    

avatar Just a minor quibble ...
The first was essentially an honest mistake; almost all knowledgeable observers thought Iraq was hiding prohibited weapons programs, although they disagreed about how to handle the problem and the fears proved overblown.
While this characterization was true at the time of the Senate vote on giving Bush authority to wage the war, it was absolutely clear, before the invasion, in March 2003 that it was inaccurate.
Actually, there were plenty of knowledgeable observers who were already well aware that the claim of prohibited weapons programs were, at best, dubious (and, at worst, spurious flim-flam). Unfortunately, many Democratic Senators placed personal political survival and/or the interests of favored lobbying organizations ahead of their own best judgment, preferring, instead, to claim that they were only handing the President a strong position from which to negotiate.
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We fought the Civil War to end slavery as well as hold the union together.  WWI was a war of the Democracies.  WWII was a war to end fascism.  Korea and Vietnam were wars to stop communism.  If there has been a change in American attitudes to waging war is the disagreement over the idea of limited warfare.


WWI and WWII America's enemies were the nations we were fighting and our war aim was to crush the enemy.  Since WWII our view has been that all peoples are good and that it is their leaders that are the problem.  Our goal has been the decapitation of political leadership and taking bows from the populace for overthrowing their tyrants.  My friend a military historian things this view of ours is ridiculous and that we should treat Iraq as our enemy not Saddem and defeat Iraq and impose a political resolution there as we did in Germany and Japan.


A cultural and political point.  Remember Bob Dole took a shot at Democrats by referring to "Democrat wars."  Also the main cause of the rift between the New Left and the Left that continues today is over the use of force to oppose communist regimes.  

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WWII was a war to end fascism.  Korea and Vietnam were wars to stop communism.


WWII and Korea were both defensive wars.  


Using Vietnam here was an obviously unfortunate choice, as our attempt to force a government on the Vietnamese people failed.  


The Civil War was not fought to spread democracy; whether the South won or lost, it would have still had a more or less democratic system.


Overall, the examples you gave don't even address my point: that going to war to spread democracy is no different than going to war to spread religion, except that spreading democracy via warfare has been a lot less successful over the years.  In fact, it's batting almost zero, with the possible exception of Japan.  Now that I think about it, I can't think of the spread of any political system via force that has worked in the end.  Stalinism in the satellite countries came closest, but eventually failed.  It seems that viable political systems either develop on their own or they don't develop.  But who knows, maybe the next time will be the time it works.  And maybe Gatsby will finally snare Daisy Buchanan and live happily ever after.

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What happened to Germany after WWII?  We and the allies occupied it and forced a change of its political system.  


I would not have defined the pre-Civil War South as democratic but if the continuation of slavery is not inconsistent with democracy then the war imposed another system on the South.


If you are right about being unable to impose to democracy by force it does not follow that going to war is the wrong policy.  As either ICBMs from the Soviet Union or Al Qaeda's plots have demonstrated our seas are enough to provide physical safety to Americans.  Additionally, our economy requires both oil and global markets.  Thus threats to either is potentially a deadly attack on us.  It would follow if we cannot help bring democracy to the likes of Iraq, then we are going to period have military conflicts with them.

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What happened to Germany after WWII?  We and the allies occupied it and forced a change of its political system.


I'm sorry to be rude, but have you been reading this thread?  I already dealt with Germany.  And Italy.  


If you are right about being unable to impose to democracy by force it does not follow that going to war is the wrong policy. As either ICBMs from the Soviet Union or Al Qaeda's plots have demonstrated our seas are enough to provide physical safety to Americans.  Additionally, our economy requires both oil and global markets.  Thus threats to either is potentially a deadly attack on us.  It would follow if we cannot help bring democracy to the likes of Iraq, then we are going to period have military conflicts with them.


So, there were no WMDs, it was obvious Iraq presented no threat to the United States even if they had them, spreading democracy was a quixotic rationalization, but the war in Iraq was, nevertheless, a good idea because of ICBMs in Russia and Al-qaeda, neither of which had anything to do with Iraq?  Overall, you clearly haven't been following the thread of the discussion, but this last paragraph was really out there even by the standard of the rest of your posts.  

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While this is true in a narrow sense, it misses the larger point, which is that Blix and ElBaradei had limited credibility at that point.

And the Bush administration played no small part in this. They tried to discredit at every turn the inspection process. It was the height of hypocrisy that they pretended to be fulfilling the mandate of UN resolutions calling for the disarmament of Iraq while at the same time they undermined the very process that would determine if Iraq had disarmed or not. In fact, there was never going to be any inspection that would satisfy the administration because they had already decided to go to war. The facts, as they say, were fixed around the policy.

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I happen to agree with you, and I do have opinions about what various senators may have been thinking. But this argument is not one that you can make unequivocally. Pollack, for example, has a lot to answer for. He gave cover to a lot of people who didn't want to make a difficult decision.

But Pollack didn't provide that cover out of malice or out of failure of analysis.   I happen to believe in a profound degree of cynicism and duplicity on the part of the administration, especially those engaged in the political ramifications of decision making.

However, those beliefs cannot be supported categorically.  There is countervailing evidence that I don't happen to find persuasive, and a very emotionally powerful "saddam was evil" argument that arises if you look back to the May 2002 timeframe. Also, much of the material you would want to base an argument on is of uncertain provenance. I find Woodward's and Clark's stories of the early focus on Iraq persuasive, but they may not be accurate. 

OTOH, the statements of the UN inspectors in March 2003 are part of the public record,  They are quite clear, and not equivocal.  The question that remained open--whether there were any WMD at all--was stated clearly, and a mechanism for resolving the uncertainty was proposed.  There was, at that point, clearly no threat to the US or the region from Saddam's regime.

I think it is important to point that out. To me, it's important that despite all the chaff thrown about by the administration and various supporters, it was still absolutely clear, before the hostilities were formally started, that Iraq posed no threat to the US or to the region.  There was no consensus, at all, that such a threat existed, on the eve of the invasion.

So when I see that formulation, that "everybody agreed," I think it's important to make it very clear that what "everybody agreed" on in May 2002 was clearly false to fact in March 2003--before troops were formally committed. 

BTW, this doesn't mean I won't read Packer's book. I bought it a couple of weeks ago, and I expect to find interesting stuff in it.   

DrBB Good call. Indeed, remember all the kerfluffle about N. Korea? Plus, Iran was not decimated by sanctions, but a strong state.

Then we pick the "easy" member of the evil axis to invade.

The biggest irony about this war is that it was the THREAT of this all mighty American military that was most valuable to our policy making. As Bush I had said after the Persian Gulf war "The curse of Vietnam is now broken" since the US had such a popular and decisive win. At the same time, Bush I had said that occupying Iraq in '91 would have led to this current "quagmire" situation.

Now we are pinned down - any threat we would make to invade another nation would be laughed out of the Security Council. All people can talk about regarding Iraq is the "quagmire" analogy.

How ironic can it get? The "easy" country becomes our undoing.

By using power, you deplete your stores of it. This goes against all the pseudo financial metaphors about "political capital" we hear from the neo cons.

avatar I lack the expertise to really decipher who knew or should have know what, when, but it seems to me that if Saddam actually had a weapon system with mass destruction capabilities and the ability to deliver them to the US we would have heard unamplified the fomented screams of Israel – which clearly does possess the human assets in the region and has the motivation of location to properly evaluate the dangerous players in their neighborhood.    

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