Hold That Bandwagon!
Yesterday Paul Krugman (sir, to me) argued that supporters of health insurance for all Americans should fight for a single-payer system because that approach is the best policy. Alternative proposals are inferior, he argued, and unnecessarily sustain a role for the insurance industry in order to smooth the political path to reform – appeasement that didn’t soften the industry’s opposition to Bill Clinton’s ill-fated plan. Jonathan Cohn, Matthew Yglesias, and Kevin Drum over the past couple of weeks have pretty much taken the same position. So have a bunch of well-informed folks commenting here and on other blogs. But let’s slow down a little. Setting political calculus entirely aside, it’s no slam dunk that moving to a single-payer approach would be the best policy given the peculiarities – and genuine strengths – of our existing system.
Compared to alternative proposals like my Century Foundation colleague Leif Haase’s plan -- click here for the shorthand version (it's similar to the Zeke Emanuel and Victor Fuchs voucher approach discussed on The Washington Monthly blog last week), the transition to a single-payer arrangement would come with greater costs, disruptions, and risks. Those “cons” on the single-payer tally sheet need to be weighed carefully before proclaiming single-payer or bust – whatever you believe about the politics of the debate.
--Administrative disruptions. Shifting to a single-payer system would require scrapping the elaborate existing arrangements for processing payments, overseeing care, verifying claims, and so on. Medicare does not handle those kinds of tasks itself but relies on private intermediaries like Blue Cross & Blue Shield plans – which would go out of business under a single-payer system in the absence of a private market. So the federal government would be entering into an entirely new set of activities, requiring large numbers of new workers, that would extend far beyond what it does now. If the government were to take a direct role in managing care and encouraging better health for Americans, as it surely would under a single-payer system, administrative costs would be substantially higher than the existing Medicare system’s. Under any universal insurance proposal, administrative costs would be significantly reduced by streamlining today’s patchwork system – but the alternatives to a single-payer approach would accomplish that goal with less upheaval.
--Getting good value for medical spending. Under a single-payer system with a uniform benefit package, political and other pressures push in the direction of underfunding the system (as in Canada and Great Britain) partly because there are more taxpayers who get sick infrequently than who are very ill. That, in turn, contributes to the dreaded waiting lists for non-emergency procedures. It’s conceivable that in an American setting, where generous employer packages have historically driven the standard of coverage, pressure will be stronger in the opposite direction toward covering wide ranges of procedures with extensive access. But in that case, costs would be difficult to control and much of what would be covered would be of dubious merit.
--Effects on medical innovation. If spending is limited within a global budget, as is typical under single-payer systems, incentives to develop new drugs, therapies, and devices may be compromised. True, many new medical technologies under the existing system are of marginal value, or none at all. But a universal system built on premium subsidies for insurance that covers demonstrably effective advances, while leaving it to individuals to pay on their own for unproven treatments, is a better way to sustain innovation while keeping some control on costs.















As a favor then, could you summarize or make more easily understandable the PDF of the alternate plan you linked to? I, and I'm sure many others, just don't have the time in a day to wade through an 80-page policy paper.
I think this is exactly what Krugman was referencing. It's much simpler and politically expedient to say "I support single-payer" than to launch into an hour long policy discussion on a tiered-system that merges government and private sector insurance.
This is a problem across the Democratic Party. We're great at hour long policy discussions and 80 page white papers about complex policy initiatives, but we SUCK at getting our message across in less than 30-seconds.
No plan is perfect, you are right. But in the case of something like health care, simpler is better. not only politically, but fiscally. Yes, the transition costs at first may be higher than the graduated, tiered system (or another solution). But I think Americans are SICK of the complication and cost of our system and just want something simple that will cover them and lower the insane amount we spend per capita on health care for less coverage.
And who says that a single payer plan will eliminate private sector insurance? An Industry will pop up right away to serve people who want additional coverage on top of the government coverage (add-on plans for more services covered, longer term disability coverage, etc ). Any single-payer plan should take into account secondary "add-on" insurance for those who want it.
heck, it doesn't even have to leave Union negotiating! There could still be much scaled back employer plans that are small add-on plans for a bit more coverage that unions negotiate for. it would take the pressure off both parties for getting basic coverage and leave any additional negotiating to cover what things a single-payer plan doesn't (or add on others). let the market decide how that works*
*uh oh.. a liberal who doesn't mind letting the market work now and then. I hope I don't get my liberal card revoked :)
Anyway, don't know if all of that made sense. But a summary of that 80+page plan would be helpful if it can be provided. And translated from Wonk to English, please. ;)
June 14, 2005 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
<i>Shifting to a single-payer system would require scrapping the elaborate existing arrangements for processing payments, overseeing care, verifying claims, and so on. Medicare does not handle those kinds of tasks itself but relies on private intermediaries like Blue Cross & Blue Shield plans – which would go out of business under a single-payer system in the absence of a private market.</i>
Isn't that one of the goals?
June 14, 2005 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
<I>Is this how you do italics?</I>
June 14, 2005 11:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is this?
June 14, 2005 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think that the best proposal for universal health insurance is that put forward by Ted Halstead and Michael Lind in their book, "The Radical Center." Their proposal (summarized here and described more fully in their book) is for mandatory minimum personal insurance carried by each individual, supplemented by additional insurance provided as a perk or incentive by employers, unions, etc.
June 14, 2005 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Any plan that makes it a crime for a doctor to provide private medical services to an individual in exhange for a payment by that individual is DOA, IMHO. That killed HilllaryCare, and it would kill any other national health insurance plan with the same defect. You have to let people with means provide for their own, superior medical care at their own expense, or forget about it.
June 14, 2005 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
To ease the transition, would it be possible for the government to set up a competing system that employers could buy into initially as a choice, essentially allowing companies to buy into medicaid or medicare. The centralized system, being intrinsically more competative (given the economies of scale and hopeful negotiating power) will be able to offer more and more attractive insurance packages to employers. As the pool expandes, the question would then be, how far the "profit" coming from competetive plans be able to go in terms of subsidizing those who can't afford care (and raise the possibility of increasing the maximum salaries upon which medicaid kicks in) Presumably, this would ultimately lead to the decline of insurance companies, but in a slower more controlled way. This would also leave open the possibility for a two teired system, that while not rationing health care to the poor, would allow companies to woo employees with more generous private health care options, and perhaps keep some of the incentives for inovative therapy.
June 14, 2005 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't that one of the goals?
Exactly! That is one of the main reasons our health care costs 1.5-2 times as much and delivers less than national health care in Canada and most of Europe.
While they may be trying to improve on their health care systems in Europe by adding additional private insurance, I would bet that large majorities of people in those countries would choose their current sytems over what we have here.
The main problem in my view with with single payer is that politics get involved in health care. I think it would do very well with most democrats and some sensible republicans in charge, but people like Bush would come in and try to slash funding for it in order to give tax cuts to the wealthy. There would have to be safeguards against this built in to any legislation.
June 14, 2005 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
You have to let people with means provide for their own, superior medical care at their own expense, or forget about it.
That sounds fine to me. I haven't heard anyone suggest that this would not be possible. The Clinton Health Care Plan was a disaster for so many reasons, but mainly because it was far too complex and did not eliminate insurance companies.
June 14, 2005 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, you didn't make the sale with me. I stopped reading.
Complexity killed the Clinton plan.
First nail down consensus for change. For this the idea needs to be simple. Single-payer makes the sale.
Then compromise if necessary.
If the Republicans want to push some form of universal health care that's not single payer, this is a good thing.
But I'm not gonna follow paid political elites into the same trap as before. Complex reforms fail for being "too clever by half".
If you "think tank" thinkers can't sell Republicans on your ideas, don't waste your time with me. I know what I want.
June 14, 2005 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Universal Health Care here in the US, but it isn't going to happen until the GM's and Microsofts of the business world find it to be in THEIR self interest. Really, think about it. Our elected people aren't going to suggest anything until they hear buisness talking it up. They remember what the demogogues did to Bill & Hillary's attepts back in the 90's and want no part of that. Even though most of what they said then has now come true.
Individual citizens vote but the representatives are listening to business on this one.
Find some Powerpoint presentation that shows 'em how much cheaper it is. The they will jump on the bandwagon.
I know this approach sounds like exactly what is ailing the US right now, guess what? You're right! It is. Exactly.
June 14, 2005 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I really do think a pretty easy case can be made to corporations (aside from Insurance companies) that national health care is in their best interest. It seems clear to me that it is a big headache for companies to have to deal with the paperwork, costs and unpredictability of health care.
Hey, Wal-mart already uses government health care for up to half of their workers! It would even the playing field in that respect. At least Wal-mart would have to pay as much as every other company that is not gaming the current system.
June 14, 2005 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let’s face it, Americans are simply more individualistic and enamored with the idea of choice than citizens of other countries in the developed world.
I think this is far more true of political and economic elites like Mr. Anrig than it is true of the population at large. Most Americans don't mind big government as long as it works. They love their Medicare, for instance.
Political elites have got to stop projecting their own preferences on a population that doesn't necessarily share their views.
June 14, 2005 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
National health insurance does not necessarily mean "single payer." France and Germany, for example, have national health insurance programs that also allow private insurance providers to fill in coverage gaps.
June 14, 2005 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Setting political calculus entirely aside...
Hello, McFly...?
This line strikes me as a red flag.
You know what the red flag says? "Clueless"
Go back to whatever wonk institution you came from.
I participate in blogs to discuss the real world, not some "non-political" universe that exists in some wonks mind.
"Setting aside the politics" when discussing public policy is sorta like a Marxist, an Objectivist or a Christian saying, "if everybody followed my ideology we wouldn't have these problems."
It's true in a theoretical sense but completely worthless to those of us trying to craft something that really works.
June 14, 2005 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have to agree with Carl Nyberg on this one. Maybe Haase-Emanuel-Fuchs-whatever is superior to single pay. I don't think so, but I'll assume so for this post.
But whatever the merits, you don't bargain with yourself. Don't start out with an "ideal" plan that can't sell. Start out with something marketable. Remember: single-pay="Medicare for everybody." You are more likely to get insurance companies to play with you if you have a credible threat to put them out of business.
If subsequent political deals actually improve the plan on the merits, that's just dandy.
June 14, 2005 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you're going to force people to buy an insurance policy than the price of the policy must be regulated. Wouldn't be fair to force some one, by law, to buy a product without guaranteeing them a fair price.
June 14, 2005 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
From a pragmatic point of view big corporations should be more pro-universal health care than Democrats.
Unions and trial lawyers--two powerful Dem constituencies--have good reason to oppose universal health care. Unionizing low wage workers is much easier without universal health care b/c the union delivers health care to workers that wouldn't get it otherwise. And the medical malpractice gravy train would end for trial lawyers.
Corporations would have higher taxes, but they would lose health care costs and they would have the most contentious labor issue taken out of the negotiations.
So why doesn't corporate America lead the charge?
Ideologically they buy into the Left-Right spectrum of politics. They believe economic policy either moves the nation closer to Karl Marx or to Adam Smith/Milton Friedman. They see universal health care as moving toward Marx and therefore bad/evil.
Also, the GOP is a coalition. GM, Coca-Cola and other employers that would gain from universal health care are in a coalition with medical-industrial complex companies that would lose more than GM, Coke, et al would gain. To keep the coalition together, GM, Coke, et al can't back universal health care.
June 14, 2005 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a couple of things to add, though I can't guarantee how coherent they're going to be.
I agree that Democrats are really good at the policy discussions and 80-page white papers, but not so adept at 30-second sound bites. But in order to not be full of hot air, they must be prepared for the questions after the sound-bite, with real answers and not rhetoric. If not, then they're just Bushies with different language. And places like this are great for working out those details so that the politicians and televised policy wonks can be more substansive when asked. When not asked, btw, they should stick to one or two key phrases.
I also agree that the Party needs one coherent message (though not monolithic - they should be willing to hear differing views of such a complex issue), and that they should not pick it for ostensively (sp?) political reasons. Don't pick single-payer just because it's the least complicated and seemingly easiest to sell.
One of my biggest problems with the whole concept of universal healthcare is that it will ultimately lead to an argument of what should be covered. The New America plan linked in another comment is interesting and one of the better universal plans I've seen sketched out. However even that would bring up the issue of how to define "basic". What is meant by "basic" healthcare? There are some things everyone will agree on: an annual check-up, one GYN visit for women and prostate cancer screening for men, well-child visits, pre-natal care.
But after that, it gets far more complicated. What level do you cover for prescriptions? What's a reasonable deductible? What's a reasonable copay (if you're going to use copays)? Given the increase in common recurring ailments like allergies, asthma and diabetes, is coverage of that considered "basic"? If so, which treatments?
And all of that is before you get to catastrophic care (where any discussion would have to take on the incredibly unpleasant issue of diminishing returns) and the so-called social isues (abortion, right-to-die, medical marijuana, etc).
Also, while I agree with the point that mandating the basic care isn't likely to incentivise (sp?) employers to stop contributing to add-on plans, I do think it will leave you with the social equality problem of people who can't afford or aren't offered the add-on plans.
I know that all I've offered here are criticisms and questions, but to be honest, on healthcare, that's all I have right now. I know it's a huge problem, probably the biggest one this country faces right now, but I don't what the best solutions are.
I also want to thank Greg for pointing out that one of the reasons that Medicare has such low administrative costs is that they don't actually handle a number of the normal administrative functions.
June 14, 2005 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Universal health care promotes individualism.
Only someone who hasn't worked in or around small business would miss this point.
I suspect thousands upon thousands of small businesses don't get started each year because of health care issues.
How many people have an idea, the capital, the knowledge and the desire, but can't start the business because of a family member with a pre-existing condition? Or a pregnancy?
But Democrats and Republicans both prefer large corporate employers to small business.
Republicans love that corporations consolidate power for the rich and powerful.
Democrats like that corporations are more likely to be unionized than small business and they are easier to collect taxes from. So we have bi-partisan consensus that policy should prefer large corporations over small business. Of course, this squelches individualism, but it's a small price to pay.
June 14, 2005 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are we going to do to people that don't buy insurance?
Are we going to incarcerate them?
Maybe send the sheriff and an auctioneer to the house to sell their personal effects?
It's not like a car where I can leave it parked if I'm not paying my insurance.
Also, I don't see how the mandatory insurance does boo to contain costs.
Universal health care costs less and controls costs more effectively.
June 14, 2005 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
FWIW: I have worked in healthcare for some 30 years, 20 of those in management. I have a masters in healthcare administration and have worked in a wide variety of healthcare programs including for profit and indigent programs.
I am convinced that we need a single payer system. While your arguments are well stated, I think they are flawed.
--Administrative disruptions.
I once looked at the list of payers a physician's office had coded into their billing system. They had over 800 payers. Do you really think that a single payer would be harder to deal with than 800? You correctly state that Medicare uses third party payers, but there is no reason why a universal single payer system wouldn't also. Medicare has always been a pretty efficient system and, the last time I saw numbers on it, Medicare's overhead was lower than any of the private payers. Medicare pays the third party adminstrator a fixed overhead fee, which helps control at least that part of the cost. With private insurers, we have NO idea what their true overhead costs are. Of course, I'm sure they wouldn't "disassemble" just to make more money.
--Getting good value for medical spending
I really don't see that a single payer system would necessarily result in longer waits than HMO's. While the big pile of money would be tempting to budget cutters, cutting healthcare spending would generate an almost immediate backlash. Why would constituents remain silent if they were unhappy with their healthcare? And why would elected officials ignore their constituents desires? I don't think the relative percentage of sick constituents to healthy constituents would have any impact at all.
--Effects on medical innovation
Again, I do not see why a single payer system would slow medical innovation. On the contrary, I believe removing the unproductive costs (i.e., insurance company profits) from the system would result in a more efficient system that would more likely have more room, not less, for funding medical innovation. I also do not think Americans will give up pursuing eternal youth or the defeat of terrible diseases just because the govt is funding the system.
--Public attitudes toward government
The experience of Medicare provides a clear rebuttal to this. Medicare recipients are generally more satisfied with their healthcare than other groups. During the "Hillary Care" debate, my dear, republican, 80 yr-old mother told me, with that haughty rightwing air, "I don't want the government involved in my healthcare. I'm happy with it the way it is." Of course, I pointed out to her that she already had a government funded system and that what I wanted was for all Americans to be able to be as happy with their healthcare coverage as she was.
I just don't think your arguments stand up. Medicare is the model and it's a pretty good one -- not perfect, by any means, but pretty damn good. A single payer system, using third party payers, would be almost indistinguishable to most recipients. However, I do not expect to see one enacted in this country in my lifetime. We are too shortsighted.
June 14, 2005 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Insurance companies, HMOs and the market system have been tried. They fail to contain costs.
I want health care to cost less.
Some of the extra cost in the U.S. system goes to research but much of it goes to profit, exhorbitant executive salaries, advertising and accounting that would be unnecessary in a universal health care system.
The point of reform is not just to give everybody health care, but to make the system work better.
BTW, having medical research priorities based on profit skews what kind of research gets done. The incentive is to look for expensive ways to treat problems since there is more possibility for mark-up on expensive products. How much resources goes into treating common ailments more effectively?
June 14, 2005 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Until Uwe Reinhardt and Mark Schmitt tell us what to think, this thread is a waste of brain power.
June 14, 2005 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorta like this or maybe this?
June 14, 2005 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg Anrig,
How would your proposal contain costs?
How much less effective at cost containment would it be than single-payer health care?
June 14, 2005 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree completely. Let me add two things:
June 14, 2005 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you think Republicans invest their think tank money in people that go to the GOP base and tell them they're fucked-up and asking for too much?
It would be nice to have the Dem-leaning think tank money invested in how to sell single-payer to key constituencies, instead of investing money selling the base on expecting less.
But Michael Lind was mostly right about how the affluent Neo Liberals have been setting the agenda for the Dem Party.
June 14, 2005 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
You make a number of really excellent points in your comments on this thread, but I could do without maybe half the snark factor.
Not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying. You seem to really believe in single payer, so instead of verbally smacking anyone who hints at disagreeing, try to convince them of your view.
I'm honestly open to being convinced, but this comment here doesn't do anything for me.
June 14, 2005 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Routine testing and behavior modifications could be if not mandatory, at least, incentive driven. If a person will make no effort to remain healthy then society should not feel required to do a great deal more. Private insurance would of course still be available.
June 14, 2005 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the Cliff's Notes version of Leif Haase's plan (it was stupid of me not to put this link in the original version -- sorry)
June 14, 2005 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But Michael Lind was mostly right about how the affluent Neo Liberals have been setting the agenda for the Dem Party."
In the runup to this blog being launched, I thought Michael Lind was one of the promised luminaries.
What happened to him?
I want him here. Now.
June 14, 2005 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it needs to be said that nearly all of the “problems” you have listed, sir, are actually quite laughable.
Administrative disruptions. Transition costs? OH, THE HORRORS!
Getting good value for medical spending. Since wealthy conservatives can probably be expected to want to underfund any government-sponsored health care service, we should just accept that it will inevitably occur, so therefore we shouldn’t even bother ourselves to try to improve the whole system. WHY?
Effects on medical innovation. This is probably the most specious argument of them all, provided to us by the monopolists who own and manage the pharmaceutical industry. Do people really believe that medical researchers would not have any incentive to try to come up with new, breakthrough drugs and technologies even if they were on the government’s payroll and received all the money they needed to do their work, fame for their innovations, and special bonuses for individual achievement? Perhaps the shareholders of pharmaceutical companies would not be able to make as much money off of the researchers as they used to, but how would this stifle the innovative drive of the actual innovators?
Public attitudes toward government. Because the Republican Party has been successful in poisoning the attitudes of many Americans toward “The Government”, we should just concede that it is impossible to change those attitudes? Why the hell even have an opposition party if you are afraid to express opposition that might upset your opponents?
Perhaps the strongest reservation that most Americans have about Socialized Medicine is the “waiting lists” that they’ve heard about. The waiting lists exist when society chooses to ration relatively scarce health care services on a basis other than wealth. When we rely on the pricing mechanism of markets to distribute scarce health services & technologies, then we are rationing according to wealth.
Many people find that approach to be morally abhorrent. After all, who should get a desperately needed kidney—a fifteen-year-old poor child who has a lot of promise, or an eighty-nine-year-old patient suffering from other serious conditions who happens to have a lot of money?
As Anrig has pointed out, excessive waiting times for [mostly elective] medical procedures is essentially a matter of underfunding. If you increase funding, you are able to hire more doctors, build more operating rooms, and purchase more equipment. That reduces waiting times. The United Kingdom’s National Health Service would be able to dramatically reduce waiting times if they were to spend anywhere close to the amount of money that Americans spend on health care.
America’s private health care system costs Americans more than twice as much as the NHS costs the citizens of the UK. In 2002, UK citizens spent only about 8% of their GDP on health care ($2,160 per citizen). This compares to the approximately 15% of GDP that Americans spent on health care that year ($5,267 per citizen). [Source: OECD] In spite of the parsimony of the UK’s ruling class, the NHS has provided the British people with health outcomes that are roughly equal to that Americans, who pay twice as much. This empirical evidence tell us that Socialized Medicine in England is far, far more EFFICIENT than America’s private sector alternative.
The only problem with the NHS is that it has been chronically underfunded due to the pressure of conservative politicians, et al. If there is one lesson we can learn from the United Kingdom’s experiment with Socialized Medicine, it’s that America could dramatically improve the health care of all of its citizens if it were to copy the UK model. Spend the same amount of money, enjoy great improvements in economic efficiencies, and generate a dramatic reduction of wait times—in spite of a big increase in demand for elective services—by dramatically increasing the supply of doctors, equipment, etc.
For some additional perspective on the topic of government program underfunding, see Government Bureaucracy vs. Private Sector Efficiency at the www.taxwisdom.org website
June 14, 2005 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sick of Dem elites coming down from on high and telling me they've got it figured out when they obviously don't have it figured out.
If the think tankers and others getting paid to be Dem thinkers want to join the blog world they should come to the table with a little humility themselves.
Maybe Mr. Arnig should spend a little more time listening to the people in the blog communities.
The country has gotten itself into a terrible situation in Iraq, deficit spending is going to trash the economy in the next decade, there's not really a gameplan for handling globalization that works for the bottom 60% and like a bunch of Americans, I don't have health care.
Where have the Dem elites been on these issues?
1. Much of the Dem leadership supported the Iraq War.
2. The Dems haven't had the guts to say they are either going to raise taxes or cutting spending, but they do say they don't like deficits.
3. Clinton pushed through NAFTA and the WTO and again the Dems don't have much of a plan to mitigate the bad aspects of economic globalization.
4. Only a minority of elected Dems even think universal health care is worth fighting for.
But the money backing the Dems can hire Greg Anrig to come here and tell to expect less.
And I've checked a couple of Anrig's earlier threads. Apparently Mr. Anrig can't be bothered to engage in a dialogue with his audience.
Do you think it's respectful for bloggers to start a discussion but not respond to the comments made by the audience?
June 14, 2005 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, universal health coverage would lead to arguments about what should be covered. But hey! I think that would be an improvement! I have decent health insurance coverage, but absolutely no input about what is or is not covered-- we have the health insurance that my husband's employer chooses to provide. Most Americans currently have little or no choice and no say about coverage.
Regarding the point that Medicare is administratively cheaper because it doesn't have to cover the "normal costs" of verifying coverage, etc., may I suggest that there is NOTHING NORMAL about those costs at all! They are a complete and total waste of health care dollars. I was with two doctor friends this weekend who agreed that they are asked often by patients about whether a certain procedure will be covered, and that they rarely know the answer. Both the doctor's office and the insurance company waste resources verifying coverage. Even worse waste are the dollars spent by insurance companies trying to weasle out of paying for treatment that is covered, but if they can get you to not file the appeal within the correct number of days, or use some other bureaucratic method, they can avoid paying.
June 14, 2005 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see no reason to believe that the level of medical malpractice will go down under a single-payer system . . . why would there be less lawyers involved?
June 14, 2005 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
The government would make the rules and pay for malpractice.
How long will it take Congress to figure out it can save money by streamlining the malpractice system?
June 14, 2005 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do think it would have to be a crime for doctors to take private fees for proceedures allowed by the single payer. Otherwise the price control regimes of single payer would be undermined.
June 14, 2005 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree wholeheartedly, I was not particularly in favor of Hillary's plan -- because of the complexity that it retained. And it is no doubt that the complexity was what killed it -- or,at least, that's the hammer they used. Though I did support it because I thought it would move the issue forward.
I mentioned to my boss at the time (one in a long string of healthcare crooks I've worked for) that I figured there would come a time when we would wish for "HillaryCare", because Hillary's plan preserved a fee for service option -- the easiest and most lucrative to deal with. It was clear, at the time, that fee for service was on the way out -- it is all but gone now and projecting hospital's revenue stream has become an increasingly byzantine process.
Under the right circumstances (a "bipartisan utopia" for starters), I believe a single payer system would be welcomed by the providers. The biggest problem with moving to a single payer system is that the private, for-profit insurance companies are themselves, of course, investor owned and those investors are BIG MONEY interests, not to mention pension funds, etc. If you suddenly shrink their revenue stream, bad things are going to happen to mutual funds, etc. It seems to me, now here I am very much out of my depth, that any workable plan for a single payer system would have to recognize pretty significant transitional costs in order to, for want of better term, buy out the investors of the insurance companies.
June 14, 2005 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Politically, single payer can work! How many people do you know that enjoy dealing with their insurance company? People hate insurance companies and would welcome a chance to abolish them I think they are an easy target. Everyone from business owners that pay hefty premiums to covered workers who have been denied reimbursments would be on board. I think Krugman made this point indirectly when he said the only people that want to preserve them would be the insurance lobby themselves. And the other option is subsidies to insurance companies.
What do you think?
June 14, 2005 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post. I am for national health care, but I do not think single payer systems will work in this country. Hell, they aren't working very well in Canada or France, and the barriers to entry they had are nowhere close to us. The US, whether you accept this or not, still has a higher quality of health care than Canada, though our number of uninsured is disgraceful. Not politically, but pragmatically, a voucher system will be easier to implement since it works with existing structures. I understand that many a liberal hates the insurance industry, and for good reason. The industry has had a significant number of cases documenting abuse in the system and refusal of genuine pay outs. However, oversight would necessarily increase if the government was picking up the tab from these companies and they would have a much harder time refusing claims. Something to think about, I understand that there are genuine disagreements, but it seems to me Canada is an example of why we need to rethink the orthodox model of universal coverage. I think those of us on the left sometimes get too enamored with a specific version of a policy instead of just the policy. Empirical evidence should be payed attention to in terms of implementation of a policy goal. If you doubt what I say about Canada's system, simply look at any Canadian newspaper over the last 2-4 years and see what the stories about their health care system are like. Hint: They are not praiseworthy.
June 14, 2005 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can HMO docs moonlight? Take extra money on the side?
June 14, 2005 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Given that so much of the money and effort to create innovations comes from publicly funded universities and tax payer subsidized grants already, bringing prices in line, as a single payer system would, just makes the system fair. As it is now, I get to pay for drug and treatment innovations and then I get gouged when I try to purchase them.
June 14, 2005 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do think it would have to be a crime for doctors to take private fees for proceedures allowed by the single payer. Otherwise the price control regimes of single payer would be undermined.
The "price control regime" would be enforced through sheer numbers. Just as HMO's with large populations are able to set their rates lower, the universal access model would have a huge population and so would be able to keep rates relatively low. Providers would trade higher rates for less volitility, less overhead, a dependable revenue stream. Providers would have lower costs, as well. What you're really talking about is a kind of "bribe." Stopping providers from taking bribes to move someone to the front of the line is not a problem now, and I don't think it would be a big problem under universal access.
I think that ethics, clinical judgement, and fear of lawsuits would keep most physicians from taking bribes -- and they are the primary gatekeepers. There is very little healthcare that you can walk in off the street and buy for yourself. It all has to be "ordered" by a physician. The way a single payer system deals with docs would be very key to success. Employing phyisicians is, by and large, a bad idea. They tend to be less productive when they are salaried. So, I'd keep them as free agents with very few restraints on their business.
While doctors do not like indigent people in their practices, as a general rule, they really don't usually get involved with how much a given patient is paying them, unless it becomes an issue, e.g., a collection problem or no insurance whatsoever. Otherwise, they are happy to let the billing office tell you what your insurer will pay, etc. I don't think that will change much, assuming rates are set at a fair level.
June 14, 2005 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
"And the medical malpractice gravy train would end for trial lawyers."
So why not call single payer healthcare "tort reform"? Then the Republicans would like it, too!
[Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.]
June 14, 2005 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Guess what? That 43-46 million unisured sector? Where do you think they get their healthcare? In emergency rooms and free clinics. Want to see long lines?
Not to mention no aftercare or preventative care. Or the fact that an ER visit costs about 100 times that of a proper doctor visit.
Only after Clinton's blundering healthcare initiative was pretty much dead did he start to make the good argument: Once you get everybody in the pool, overall cost plummet. Insurance 101.
And one more thing I haven't seen anyone mention that is critical to selling a medicare for all plan: You can still have your fancy private insurance if you want. Some will undoubtably wish to, and be able to afford to have platinum healthcare services. Nothing about a single payer plan prohibits such indulgences.
June 14, 2005 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, but the GMs and the Microsofts are moving off-shore where they don't have to provide health care benefits.
June 14, 2005 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
But single payer also solves the major problem besetting any system that relies on market forces -- risk selection. It is this, above all, which makes the present system such a train wreck. So until and unless it is shown that a managed competition scheme can solve it efficiently, we are not talking about a choice between two alternatives, each with its own set of drawbacks -- we are talking about a choice between an alternative that will certainly solve the major problem at hand, and one that may, or may not. If that is the choice, then the respective drawbacks are secondary considerations, not decisive ones.
BTW, even if they (the respective drawbacks) were decisive, you would not have succeeded in making much of a case here against single payer. As other commentors have pointed out, you seem to be contrasting managed competition schemes with a straw man version of single payer -- one that would not permit additional private health care spending, over and above the basic plan, or be able to make use of third parties for carrying out administrative functions. A glance at Medicare shows how wrong both suppositions are.
June 14, 2005 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Missing in this whole discussion is how to pay for this new system, what ever it is. A single payer system is easy to describe, the costs are readily apparent, and devising the tax schedule to pay for it is relatively simple. Did you all catch that? A new tax will be needed - we cannot expect employers to pay for our health care, because we are not all employed, and those who are, do not all work for the same employer or even in the same industry. So, before I jump on any band wagon here, I want someone to figure out what the tax I will be required to pay will be. If that tax is comparable to my existing health insurance premium I will be on board, but if it is twice as much I will look for a different train.
June 14, 2005 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Iraq War isn't earmarked as a tax increase. Why should health care be a special tax?
June 14, 2005 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is there a reason that subsidized health insurance won't suffer from the same market failures that characterize the current system - adverse selection leading to high premiums and suboptimal provision of insurance?
June 14, 2005 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Any proper shift to a single payer model would require doing away with many of the medical paradigms we find normal. Insurance for instance, is always a gamble against risk. Such would find no place in planning and executing what would become a service delivery system. (or systems).
US Medical Care is saddled with the old "fee for service" model, where every aspect of service is individually priced. An efficient delivery system could not be built on this model.
We need to understand the current interest in Health Care Reform is as much a product of globalization as anything else. We built the employer paid Health Insurance model because of wage controls during World War II when firms used a combination of pensions and health insurance as a means of providing an economic reward when normal wage increases were precluded as an anti-inflation measure. Today, much of the employer paid costs add on to the actual costs of American made products and services, making them non-competitive in the global market system, where virtually no other nation incorporates the costs of health care in such production. We need to understand how global competition is now forcing large employers to seek ways out of these health care costs that must be added on to the product or service. If you want to work in parallel with them on these issues -- you must understand their motivations.
For us, the worst thing we can do is believe "Single Payer" or any other designation of a reformed system will be a relatively minor change -- it will be massive -- major, the reworking of a whole segment of the nation's economy. The object should always be to build a much more efficient system that delivers health equities -- not short term solutions to individual crisis situations.
We need to understand that a new system will be designed and run over time by politicians. Thus we need to build in the places in the system that should be politically sensitive. (Which set of Politicians should face the voters on helath issues as a normal part of getting elected?) You can begin to appreciate the kinds of political pressure that would exist in a reformed system by looking at the "almost an issue" of flu vaccine last fall. Manufacturing an adequate vaccine supply, and properly delivering it would be a straight up political decision. The consequences for the wrong decision would flow to political appointees. It is important that placing political responsibility properly in a redesigned system be openly and honestly addressed.
June 14, 2005 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure where the humble thing comes from, because I guess I didn't consider that in regards to either of you, but it's obviously something that bothers you, so to address part of what you're saying:
And I've checked a couple of Anrig's earlier threads. Apparently Mr. Anrig can't be bothered to engage in a dialogue with his audience.
Do you think it's respectful for bloggers to start a discussion but not respond to the comments made by the audience?
I think in general it's wonderful if "involved" people who blog get down and dirty into the comments. But I also recognize that anyone with a job (myself included) doesn't always have time to read every response to a major comment-attracting post like this one. Although I'm following the comments of this post closely, it's only because I happened to have time today.
I also leave open the possibility that Greg will respond en masse via another post in the same way that Anthony Romero did earlier today.
1. Much of the Dem leadership supported the Iraq War.
True, but so did much of the country at the time. And please note that I'm not arguing the merits of that, just stating a fact.
2. The Dems haven't had the guts to say they are either going to raise taxes or cutting spending, but they do say they don't like deficits.
No offense, but well, duh. I mean, when competing against people who actually believe in a free lunch on a grand scale, you're not going to get anywhere hollering that there's a price to be paid, whether it's true or not. If the world were a better place, we'd be able to have an honest public discussion of this, but if this were a better world, George W. Bush wouldn't be President.
3. Clinton pushed through NAFTA and the WTO and again the Dems don't have much of a plan to mitigate the bad aspects of economic globalization.
I actually do think a number of Democrats have advocated for transition assistance, educational assistance, extended unemployment and a variety of other programs. It's not a perfect solution, but globalization also wasn't going to be stopped by not signing those agreements. The problem again is funding and those programs are, unfortunately, an easy and relatively hidden target of Republican "cost cutters".
4. Only a minority of elected Dems even think universal health care is worth fighting for.
This I can't speak to, except to say that after the hammering the Clintons took, I'm not exactly surprised that Democratic politicians aren't eager to get on this merry-go-round again.
June 14, 2005 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not illegal for a physician who accepts medicare patients to accept private payment for the same proceures she provides to her medicare patients?
June 14, 2005 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Anrig for finally challenging the emerging orthodoxy. I am amazed, continually, by the people who when faced with basic, sensible questions about single payer - like how it would transition, who would pay for it, or how it can possibly work structurally - resort to the responses of the cornered. -"it just will" -"people will like governement" -"everything will be rosy when the insurance companies are gone."
I don't love insurance companies, health insurance, doctors and their organizations, or hospitals. (I'm not so negative on pharmaceuticals, but I recognize them for the Marketing engines that they are.) But I do understand that these groups have a huge stake in maintaining the status quo, that they, and their issues, cannot be wished away, or dealt with by some pie-in-the-sky notion of a world where you just eliminate a whole line of insurance business with the stroke of a pen.
There are some very real, very painful questions about how a single payer system would be structured that no one has completely honestly addressed. There is no clear indication that all Democrats, never mind Republicans, actually back single payer. There is no indication that the public is moved by the argumentds for single payer, or in fact understands in any realistic way, what the current issues in health care are. And few, if any of us, really have a grasp on the whole shape, size and nature of the multiple health care delivery systems currently in place in the United States. All of those things need careful consideration before any serious plan - a plan with any real chance of passing - can be considered. America's history invoilves a combination public and private sector solutions, and single payer (so far) is out of balance with our historical approach. That needs to be looked at, and answered. Seriously and thoughtfully.
And all of that before we even discuss the extremely painful, and extremely frightening issue of just how bad the financial state of Medicare actually is. Medicare for all? I don't see how when Medicare is already headed for disaster.
weboy, the great unregistered
June 14, 2005 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most Americans currently have little or no choice and no say about coverage.
Individuals still wouldn't have any say in what is covered, nor are they likely, for administrative cost reasons, to have a huge number of options of different plans (I would imagine under most scenarios, you're talking about a 2-3). What I meant by this is what specific services are covered, and that's something that even employers have a limited say in, unless they're willing to pay extra for various riders, an option individuals certainly won't have.
As to your second point, I'll address it in two parts. It will always be neccessary to have claims specialists to detrmine if particular services are covered, if specific doctors are covered, how much the reimbursement is, whether a given person is even covered by that particular healthcare organization (unless it's all one provider, which I don't think is either viable or a good idea). But in any case, what I meant was as administrative costs are used to compare the current medicare system to the current private insurance companies.
As to the finding a way to weasel out of paying part, I completely agree. Those administrative costs are attributable to the profit motive of insurance companies, which is an inherent problem of treating healthcare like any other market product. However, having said that, people aren't saints and you would be amazed at the amount of intentional fraud by doctors, hospitals and patients, and that is no more helpful to the system as a whole than the insurance company's zeal to not pay in order to feed the bottom line.
June 14, 2005 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are Democrats. We believe in paying for programs ourselves, and not just passing along the cost to our children and grand children. This is a major change to go to a single payer system, and it will, like Medicare, require that we all pay a specific tax to finance it. It is a solvable problem to figure out what that tax will be, so that needs to be done for any programs proposed. We can then compare that tax to our current medical insurance costs or to our current medical expenses and make a rational decision about the desirability of it. It would be a crime to pass such a system without this step. Just for reference, I currently spend between $300 and $400 a month for my medical care and insurance. If that were a tax, it would be in the neighborhood of 10% of my income - acceptable to me.
June 14, 2005 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well sure, if you want to put on the unemployment line the hundreds of thousands of people who work for health care companies. Should the goal be to get them to reform and evolve into a part of this new system instead of driving them out of business such that all their employees suffer?
Whether you think health insurance companies and managed care companies are evil or not, the vast majority of working stiffs they employ are not.
June 14, 2005 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
This would strongly tempt whatever government entity was responsible for setting prices paid for new treatments to set prices high enough to cover production costs of existing treatments but not high enough to allow capital to be raised for risky new development. There would be no political risk in doing so because in the future, people will not miss what they never had. In fact it would be a stealth way to control costs.
June 14, 2005 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I firmly believe that in providing non-essential services the free market system should reign mostly unimpeded by goverment, the simple unarguable fact of the matter is that universal healthcare is something that all citizens of the richest nation in world should have access to. Since we don't have it now, the system we have needs to be fixed and no matter how many times I hear an insurance company say it, a business designed to maximize profits is never going to be more efficient at providing coverage to all citizens than a goverment funded agency that is designed to do the same job without making profit the ultimate goal. If you need to see how affordable private business can make an enterprise that the United States goverment is supposed to be taking care of look at how much we are paying for private security forces in Iraq compared to how much it is costing us for the armed services to provide the same service. Cable television, long distance telephone service, fast food and the like cannot be lumped into the same business model as healthcare because if push comes to shove we can do without those types of services without dying. Of course there are going to be trade offs exchanging our present system for a single payer one but this is one instance where the individual is less important than the whole. Anyone can tell a horror story about the one guy who died because he had to wait for a treatment but the thousands who lived because they had coverage outweigh that. Countries with single payer systems still have private insurance companies operating in them and that option will always be available to those who choose to exercise it and even if it wasn't I think I'd still be able to sleep at night if everyone in our nation was covered without having to worry about crushing financial burdens that suck the life out of our economy. A bankrupt patient isn't buying anything.
June 14, 2005 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
It sounds like you want to nationalize the pharmaudical companies as well as the health care delivery system. Is that right? How about medical equipment manufacturers who make CAT scanners, MRI machines, ultrasound ect.?
June 14, 2005 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment has two parts -- how would a single payer system work, and is it politically viable.
To see how it would work, look at other developed countries. There are a lot of ideas out there, and I would imagine ours wouldn't be that far from one of those. I for one think a Canadian style system might work for us -- and, contrary to what another commenter said above, the Canadian system delivers quality care, and it's extremely popular with the Canadians.
One attempt at a rough outline of how a US single payer system would work is that of the PNHP.
Political viabilitiy is another issue, but I think here too single payer is the way to go -- at least for the near term. Both for policy and political reasons, our interest is in making this a big, bold debate.
In order to get the policy change we need, we need a lot of education. Most Americans don't realize how radically our health care system needs to be altered. They still believe the talking point about ours being the "best in the world." It's simply not true. We need to increase awareness of the problems, start a discussion of our prinicples and priorities when it comes to health care, and propose solutions. We have to get a lot of people involved and interested.
As others have pointed out, this is great politics, too. It's a great way to reinforce the importance of government as the way our society gets together and provides a benefit to everyone. This can be an integral part of a discussion that can bring back concepts like justice and the commonweal.
We need something big and bold, and advocating single payer does that. Tweaking our current non-system with vouchers or Alliances sounds so Democratic -- wonky, without vision, and timid.
June 14, 2005 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
The alternative would be to use the progressive income tax to shift the bulk to the cost onto the top 10%, say, to make health care look free to the other 90%. Whether one could shift that much cost onto so few people without causing unintended consequences, I don’t know.
June 14, 2005 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not illegal for a physician who accepts medicare patients to accept private payment for the same proceures she provides to her medicare patients?
No this is not correct. If a physician participates Medicare, he/she is obligated not to charge any Medicare patient more than Medicare allows. However, he/she may continue to charge private patients more than Medicare. A physician may not charge any patient LESS than he charges Medicare.
If a physician opts not to participate in Medicare, he/she can still treat Medicare patients -- and charge them as much as he/she wants to. It is the patient's responsibility to get whatever reimbursement allowed by Medicare. If the physician participates, Medicare pays the physician directly. And the physician bills the patient for any copay that is applicable.
June 14, 2005 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, the way to save costs is to get rid of employees, not protect their jobs. If the insurance companies need to be run out of business to improve health care, then their employees will have to try to find other work.
June 14, 2005 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is a hard hearted attitude, but it is no different from the wide spread attitude about airline employees. Any attempt to control the costs for health care is going to cost someone their job. If all we did was change the name of the system, keep all of the same people earning money working in that system, and have the government pay the costs, then the costs will continue to rise without limits. In my opinion the non-value-added employees need to lose their jobs, and that means insurance company employees by and large.
June 14, 2005 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a bit flabergasted by your callousness, to be honest, but let me try to engage you substantively here. Where, praytell, would you suggest these thousands upon thousands of people look for these new jobs? These are accountants, customer service reps, salespeople, actuaries, secretaries, claims processors and on and on.
I'm not saying there isn't fat in the industry, but running them out of business, as you so casually encourage, means ALL the jobs would be gone.
June 14, 2005 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really don't think there is much danger in this scenario in a free society. Even with universal access/single payer, there will continue to be private pay patients and a demand for improved healthcare. However, one way to avoid this is to build a certain amount of capital reimbursement into the system, as was common in the good ol' days of Medicare.
Technology advances also often result in lower costs and/or higher revenue, so the providers themselves will continue to have motivation to upgrade. Consequently manufacturers will have incentive to continue to innovate. Before we replaced the CT scanner at a hospital I worked at, it took an hour or more to do a scan (we had an ancient machine). After replacement, the same procedures took only several minutes. Suddenly, our CT revenue sky rocketed and our labor cost per procedure (which is typically the one of the biggest, if not the biggest, number on the cost side of a hospital income statement) went way down.
A universal access/single payer system does not HAVE to include a lot of central planning/control. I would suggest using as little as possible. Take the current system and leave everything alone except who pays the bill and allow everyone in the front door. We currently have universal access -- but it is through the Emergency Room, the MOST expensive way possible. This is another place where significant cost savings will be found to offset the upfront increased cost of true universal access.
June 14, 2005 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg-
I know you are getting killed in the comments, but as an American who lives in the U.K. I do believe you have some very valid points. Single-payer appears to be a panacea for Americans longing to ensure all Americans can see a doctor and go to the hospital when they are sick.
It just ain't that easy. If we move to a single-payer system, health care becomes a political football rather than a personal choice. I watched in the last election as the Conservatives used "hospital cleanliness/Superbug" as an attack on Labour. It didn't work, but suddenly my local hospital became the focus of a line in the party's manifesto. How ridiculous is that? The Conservatives have standards and guiding principles. Imagine what Republicans could do on this issue.
Even if you could sell single-payer politically, please don't be fooled into thinking all health care delivery problems are solved.
June 14, 2005 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Businesses don't now pay the Medicare tax, so I see no reason why they should pay the single payer tax. And, if we ask businesses to pay it, what about the very large percentage of the population who don't work for a big business, but are either non-employed or work for very small businesses? I really feel strongly that we all need to get used to paying taxes for the services we get from our government, and like Social Security taxes, this one is not a budget breaker. Furthermore, unionized jobs would receive a pay increase equivalent to the tax immediately afterwards, which would cause most others to get similar increases. This would be a bargain for business, so I doubt them opposing it.
June 14, 2005 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
June 14, 2005 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
The numbers I remember seeing are something like $5-6000 per capita per year for health care. Do you think most people would really pay that much more tax if they knew they were paying it? I doubt it.
Why would unions get a pay raise? Sure they would try, but I bet a lot of the health care savings would go to lower product prices. What about those employees working for companies who do not provide health insurance? The companies they work for would be no better off with single payer.
Hmm, I thought employers matched the medicare payroll tax. Maybe I am wrong.
June 14, 2005 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as I know, any cost-saving measure is going to cost jobs. This is the same old argument about featherbedding, efficiency, protectionism, etc., that has been going on for decades.
I guess I'm sort of boggled to see it come up in this context, when one effect will be to deliver healthcare to more people cheaper.
I've always favored paying transition costs for displaced labor, though as far as I know that has almost never happened so far. I can't see keeping inefficient insurance companies afloat as a job-preservation measure.
June 14, 2005 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
health care becomes a political football
I don't think this is necessarily true either. Medicare spending is not regularly a "political football." The process that Medicare went through in the mid 80s completely changed the payment mechanisms of Medicare -- it was cataclysmic, but it worked pretty well, restrained Medicare spending, changed fundamentally how we do healthcare, and yet I don't remember it being a big political issue. Medicare also regularly makes changes in what it pays for generally without much fanfare. Some changes have been programmed into the system, e.g., the PPS phase-in, others are pretty arbitrary, e.g., a decision to cover this or that procedure. There is also some flexibility in the system as wavers can be obtained to get funding for services based on unique clinical needs. My late father got coverage for very high doses of Epogen even though Medicare had capped their coverage at a standardized dose. My father's doctor was able to show that he had some very unusual problems and required the higher dose. Medicare capitulated, not without a fight mind you.
June 14, 2005 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I realize it's going to cost some jobs, but for one thing, the poster above showed absolutely no sympathy for the actual people and two, there is a vast difference between trimming the fat and reorganization (to better provide the add-on accounts people have mentioned, for instance) and driving the whole industry out of business.
June 14, 2005 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
These people will find other jobs in more productive industries.
And so I'm saying to you, where? Our economy isn't exactly overflowing with white collar jobs as it is. Furthermore, if you take into account the increased cost of unemployment assistance and other transition costs for all these workers, are the savings still 20-30%?
But to be honest, I'm still having a hard time with some one so compassionate that they want universal healthcare to turn around and be so casually dismissive of these thousands of workers.
June 14, 2005 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is hard to imagine a single payer system that is not centrally controlled. Some political entity will have to determine who pays, how much they pay, and who receives care and how much.
June 14, 2005 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I'm sort of boggled to see it come up in this context, when one effect will be to deliver healthcare to more people cheaper.
So many people will have healthcare while at the same time many people will have no employment. I realize the numbers aren't on my side in this (millions uninsured vs. probably hundreds of thousands of employees), but still.
And again, it's not that I think there will be no layoffs. What I objected to in the original comment was his blithe suggestion that one of the goals was to drive the entire industry out of business, which I don't think will happen anyway (given add-on accounts and the like).
June 14, 2005 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The same place people who get laid off every day go. If they have usable skills they will find better employment.
Listen, Democrats need tio decide whether they are serious about reforming the health system or if they just want to protect jobs no matter how productive they are.
June 14, 2005 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read through the comments on health care on this site. I think you will find that driving insurance companies out of business is very much in vogue.
June 14, 2005 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Other countries emphasize wellness care, which is a huge (though not technicological) cost-saving innovation.
In China, for example, for a very low expenditure, millions are offered qi gong (the predecessor to tai chi), which builds health through gentle movement -- and hence lowers longterm health costs.
I think we over-value high-priced equipment and medications, when low-priced solutions might have far better outcomes for most of us.
June 14, 2005 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Over at the Health Care Blog Matthew Holt argues that single-payer is the way that this will shake out.
First nothing's going to change until the crisis is much harsher. Then we'll need to act fast. The only thing simple enough will be enacting Medicare for All.
See http://matthewholt.typepad.com/the_health_care_blog/2005/06/one_n
ation_unin.html
June 14, 2005 7:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can only conclude that you work in the biz. In my lifetime I've seen whole industries ( farming, loggings, fishing, mom-n-pop retailing, and manufacturing) pinched severely by various sorts of economic changes. Ultimately the answer has always been, "That's progress; they should go on with their lives". And they've really had no choice but to do that.
I'm pro-labor and have have had mixed feelings about this kind of progress in the past, but it's a done deal. I don't think that things will, or should, change for Blue Cross employees. Some, but hopefully not all of them will be able to get jobs in the government health insurance area. Others will have to change fields, the way tens of millions of other workers have had to do over the last several decades.
I used to work in a hospital environment, and there are whole job classifications who do nothing but coding, mostly for insurance purposes. That won't all go away, but almost any system will be better than what we've got.
June 14, 2005 7:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't agree with Erasmus more. He said it all, right at the top, and without the rage and spittle this topic always provokes in me.
The time is past for tinkering and fiddling.
There is not one doctor I've spoken to in the last two years who wouldn't dearly love to have a single-payer system.
There is not one drawback predicted by the naysayers (lack of choice, long waits, denial of care, high cost, bureaucracy, etc.) that we don't already suffer in our current insurance regime.
We have all the drawbacks now, and none of the advantages.
Beyond that, I just want to really stick it to the insurance companies. I want them to shrivel. Holding healthcare delivery hostage to corporate profit will never be anything but immoral, uncivilized and brutalizing.
June 14, 2005 8:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, change will involve pain.
But it's not like the status quo avoids pain.
As for your argument that it's just too complicated. Tax policy is complicated too, but the GOP doesn't fret over reducing to "taxes bad, GOP hate taxes". You ever hear Republicans fret over, "terrorism complicated getting tough isn't the full picture"?
OK. So converting 13% of the economy from something that sucks to something better is gonna involve upheaval.
Oh well...
Gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.
June 14, 2005 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Over at the Health Care Blog Matthew Holt argues that single-payer is the way that this will shake out.
First nothing's going to change until the crisis is much harsher. Then we'll need to act fast. The only thing simple enough will be enacting Medicare for All.
See http://matthewholt.typepad.com/the_health_care_blog/2005/06/one_n
ation_unin.html
--Abby
June 14, 2005 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I say minimize central control, I assume that doesn't mean NO central control. Obviously, he who pays the piper calls the tune. And, just as Medicare does now, the gov't payer would decide what to pay for and that would, of a necessity, impact on what types of equipment gets purchased. Inevitably, few providers would provide services that the gov't didn't cover. Few providers offer services now that insurers don't cover. There's not a whole lot of difference between what the typical insurer covers and what Medicare covers. What I would warn against is the gov't dictating to providers what they can or can't provide in terms of technology or services. Hospitals have a lot of experience tailoring their services to what their market needs and can, or will, afford.
There is effectively no free market in healthcare now. 90+ percent of patients come into hospitals and clinics with some kind of preset limits on what is going to be approved to be paid for and for how much. However, it is different for every patient. It's like having dozens and dozens of central planners all with slightly different ideas of what the plan is supposed to be. In a perfect world, the single payer would just reduce the current mess to a much simpler system where the providers have only one main payer to negotiate with, instead of a multitude -- and remove the threat that exposure to indigent care in ER represents since everyone would be covered.
June 14, 2005 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need to invoke Dennis Kucinich's plan "Medicare for All" We could start by letting those between 55 and 65 buy into Medicare or those between 62 and 65 if you want to start smaller.
Your post is very informative and thought provoking though.
I believe Hillary Clinton's plan failed because of democratic hubris in the Congress and her attempt to mollify the special interests by maintaining too many aspects of the current system. They turned on her like dogs and killed the plan, with the help of the idiot dems in Congress who thought they'd be in power forever, no matter what they did.
June 15, 2005 6:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would advise you not to associate Dennis Kucinich with any policy you want to get through any forseable congress.
June 15, 2005 6:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most people currently employed in healthcare would continue to be so under any sort of reform imaginable. There will NOT be some sort of massive downsizing of unemployment in the industry. Claims will still have to be logged, examined, adjudicated and paid, and an audit process will be needed to oversee the process. Non-routine and non-critical procedures will still require review and precertification. Doctors and patients will still be calling in with questions and complaints. Mail will have to be sorted and processed. Accountants will be needed to audit the financial soundness of the system. Anaylysts will pour over data to determine the effectiveness of what is being done and paid for. Hardware and software will need a small army of IT personnel to maintain.
The only people who will find themselves out of work are the marketing types, and a large part of the upper management. The people who do the grunt work (including the highly skilled grunt work) will still be needed, perhaps even more so if you now add 40 million more people to the system!
June 15, 2005 7:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
One proposal I have seen would be to use a VAT tax to fund the system. This would spread the burden across the whole economy rather than focusing it on business alone. VATs are very efficient revenue raisers and they are difficult targets for anti-tax demagogues since they are largely invisible, which is why the rightwing has always shouted down any suggestion of their use for anything in this country.
And remember: one of the biggest selling points of any sort of healthcare reform is that it should relieve employers of this burden, thereby enticing the corporations on board the bandwagon, and ending the current distortion of the labor market which even HIPAA failed to ameliorate fully.
June 15, 2005 7:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hold the phone. The author presented an argument based upon practical considerations. He didn't say that political considerations were irrelevant; he said that even if they weren't part of the calculus, there are practical reasons why a single payer system might not be the best policy.
Giving politics its due, as a whole we would be better off if our nation's decision-makers spent more time dealing with facts, and less time making bad policy justified by claims of political necessity or political expediancy.
June 15, 2005 7:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
If on the one hand they say that there is 30% administration costs to be saved due to multiple, redundant insurance plans that would be eliminated, then on the other hand they say that all the employees performing those redundant tasks will be retained in the new monopoly, is the implication that the entire 30% will come from advertising and upper management?
If all the employees are retained in the new monopoly, would they not join a public employee union, thus driving up the cost of health care?
June 15, 2005 7:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anrig didn't eliminate political consiserations from his analysis. He only eliminated the ones that provided resistance to the argument he's pitching.
If he eliminated all political considerations and did a Rawlsian analysis, he would have had to support single-payer. But he's here to push his plan. You can judge for yourself why he's pushing it.
Consider his four arguments. I've now gone back and read them in detail.
The administrative cost argument is specious if not dishonest. It claims single-payer saves less that it's proponents claim, and that his ideas about tinkering with the existing system will save more. We've tried the private sector model. It has huge inefficiencies. Claims that some tinkering will fix this seem highly dubious.
But of the four arguments Anrig makes, two of them are based in politics.
Value arguments: Under a single-payer system with a uniform benefit package, political and other pressures push in the direction of underfunding the system....
And then there's the argument called Public attitudes toward government.
So one of Anrig's four arguments is wishful thinking. Two of the four are fundamentally political arguments. But he claims to be putting politics aside.
He's making an egregiously dishonest argument. He only wants to include political considerations that support his case.
He should come back, admit he was wrong, and go back to the drawing board.
June 15, 2005 8:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some are concerned that a single player plan will cause medical rationing and waiting lists.
Many say that this with result from under funding the program. However another cause for rationing and waiting is that there will not be enough doctors to give timely treatment. Say for a particular medical condition M, today there are people with M who cannot afford to be treated. Once universal care opens that will not be an issue and there will be increased demand on M treaters. There may not be enough of them and that will create a backlog.
Currently the AMA deliberately limits the number of doctors produced by medical schools in order to make their scarcity limit competition and drive up doctor earnings. High doctor earning also feeds back to raise the barriers of entry costs (e.g. the extremely high cost of medical school).
Here is an analysis of some data from the AAMC: med school matriculants have increased from 16,307 in 1993 to 16,648 in 2005 - a whopping 341 seats or 2%. That rate is much less than the population growth of the US over the same period so the medical students per population ratio has substantially declined and doctor scarcity has increased.
Some doctors say that schools can't admit more students because that would lower the quality of doctors and present a public danger. But if you look at the above chart you can see that over the 1993-2005 period the #matriculants was nearly constant, but the #matriculants/#applicants varies from 34.5% to 49%. Does that mean that smart people should avoid doctors who matriculated in 2002 (49%) because they are much more likely to be a danger to society?
The AMA is opposed to a single payer plan I don't know all the reasons. If such a plan comes to be the AMA may try to further increase doctor scarcity.
June 15, 2005 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Carl, Just to be clear: saying that the post would set aside political considerations meant that I wouldn't talk about which form of universal coverage would be easier to get enacted. Most of the recent debate here and on other blogs had focused on whether single-payer could ever fly in the political realm because insurance companies would oppose it. I just wanted to look at the subject regardless of what plan people think would have a better chance of becoming enacted. The excerpts from my post in your comments refer to the effects of politics upon the system after it's implemented -- which in effect amount to policy considerations in deciding which approach would produce better outcomes. -- Greg
June 15, 2005 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
C'mon!
Your fourth point "Public attitudes toward government" is an attack on the political viability of single-payer. Eventually you work your way around to the peripheral idea that single-payer will make gov't less popular (which even if it was true isn't directly germaine anyway). But the bulk of the paragraph is devoted to an implicit swipe at single-payer's political viability.
So, I repeat. You create a set of assumptions for discussing your idea that exclude the political considerations that hurt your idea while including the political considerations that hurt the competing idea.
It's either dishonest or less-than-rigorous intellectually.
June 15, 2005 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
You obviously aren't reading the newspaper lately. A recent study showed that there isn't a "malpractice gravy train". Malpractice rates have gone up with NO relationship to increasing malpractice claims or payments.
The politicians are using this as a red herring and the insurance companies for greed. No, I am not an attorney. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050601/hl_nm/he
alth_malpractice_dc_1
June 15, 2005 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm unemployed and depressed, as in recurrent clinical. I am completely without insurance (and therefore health care) because no insurance company will take me with my hideous prior condition which makes me less than worthy or human, I guess. All the rules about insurance apply only to insurance gotten through employment. When you buy your own, you're on your own. Given the way the need for the market to get it$ due drive$ every a$pect of policy in thi$ ¢ountry, I don't expect that to change any time soon. We've got to love, and care for, and protect those corporations, especially the insurance companies, right?
Perhaps it's better this way; my personal narrative is about being excluded instead of what I need being so costly that it's out of reach, which is what the case would be if I didn't have this "prior condition." I'm pretty sure that if we don't get the simplest, most basic and universal system underway pretty soon, I will enroll in Medicare having been almost 15 years with no health care at all save the rare emergency, like the appendectomy I had two years ago. What followed was the most profoundly humiliating and (yes) depressing episode of my life.
If the debate originates with a complex system with a lot of conditionals, what we get will not include people like me, who through little or no fault of their own have stepped off the employment merry-go-round and haven't found a way back on. Either it's the right thing to do to see that everyone is cared for or it's not, and what I hear some of you saying is that it's not.
June 15, 2005 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a chart that shows how the US compares in terms of overall physicians per capita. And here's one that shows the distribution of licensed physicians in California (chosen simply because I had the data handy--but the overall point is that neither patient outcomes nor cost is that closely related to the number of physicians).
June 16, 2005 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Any plan that makes it a crime for a doctor to provide private medical services to an individual in exhange for a payment by that individual is DOA, IMHO. That killed HilllaryCare, and it would kill any other national health insurance plan with the same defect."
In the past I've requested proof that the Clinton plan made it crime for a doctor to provide private medical services to an individual in exhange for a payment by that individual. Nobody has been able to provide it. As far as I can tell, you are simply repeating a right wing lie.
If you want to learn about the Clinton plan, you can find summary documents at http://www.ibiblio.org/nhs/NHS-T-o-C.html and the full text of the bill at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/medicine/Health-Security-Act/ legislation/whitehouse-bill/.
- Kenneth Almquist
June 17, 2005 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink